That got your attention.

Both sides of the coin will be here, the pro group will have their tongues hanging out, the anti group will be preparing for a Holly War.

I meant in discussions of politics or political type discussions.

Well it is biblical:

Matthew 7:16-20, the Bible says twice, "You shall know them [Christians] by their fruits."

the "should be seen part"

Romans 13:1-7 states, "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established."

Paul's inspired words are also those of Peter's in 1 Pet. 2:13-14

So to speak against the government would be blasphemy.

the "not heard" part.

of course there is a "get out of goal card", there always is.

Daniel 3, Act 4:19 and Rev. 13:16

but be it on your own heads.

Wybong

You seem very confused. To have an opinion in a democratic country is not against the law or rebellion. It might be where you come from. To rebel against the Government is violating God's commands unless of course the Government has become so ungodly that they force believers to comply with their ungodliness (eg murdering the unborn) . It is usually the self righteous left who feel they have a right to strip off naked for any reason or throw urine at the police that you should be writing to. I have yet to see the Baptist or Hillsong or Salvos or Brethren promoting rebellion against the Government. I do see it daily among the earth worshipers.

There's a 'HOLLY' WAR??.

Wybong I like your posts

Your misspellings are a joy to behold

For instance a “Holly War”, … doubtless played at university level where its the “Hollys” versus the “Ivy” League

And then the

“"get out of goal card",”

That’s a hoot,

Most folk I know enjoy scoring goals, not getting out of them

but those in gaol are more disposed to seek an exit.

It seems to me that whilst you felt brave and decided to use the following phrase, on another thread,

“mean that it is OK to call you an idiot..”

Has come back and bite you.

Posting in debate is a bit like a battle of “wits” and

your posts demonstrate, you are clearly under-equipped

Now, since you have used up all your “free kicks”

I will suggest you practice with your kicking foot

and aim for the goal,

instead of your own butt

Thank you Col, your attention to my posts spurs me on, I must be doing something correct. I do however bow to your superior ability to pick nits, your many posts prove you have very little to say on anything yourself.

I stand corrected, and offer no excuses. Grammar and spelling have never been my forte and spellcheckers do funny substitutions.

I will be more attentive, sorry to upset your fun, but please do keep us informed.

Col,

You've proven that you are clearly over-equipped for this site.

Why don't you practise putting your foot fair-square in your mouth where it should stay for a while? Just so it stops the braying noises from coming out.

You're still giving all the one-trick ponies out there a good name.

Hey Wybong, take no notice of Col, he haunts these posts only to pick other people's faults as he sees them.
Just ignore him, I do.

Getting back to your topic, Runner is correct in saying we live in a democratic nation and thus we are all able to give our points of view freely.
(Good to see you still managed to slip in the tired old anti-abortion comment there too Runner).

I believe that religious beliefs and politics are sometimes too closely linked for my liking.
In a multicultural country like Australia, there are many differing religions and Gods, so any Politician in a position of power could be seen to favour one group or another if we are not careful.

Luckily, we are able to vote on which politicians we would like to govern us, and also on some pertinent issues like abortion or euthanasia.
We need to remain vigilant about who are allowed to be politicians.

Dear Wybong,

It is widely believed that there is a wall of
separation between church and state.
This view is largely a myth.

In practice, civic affairs and religion have
long been closely intertwined. Religion is an
element in oaths of office, party conventions,
court room procedures, even the Boy Scouts
give a"God and Country" award, a phrase that
implies, to say the least, a compatibility
between the two.

Political leaders must always pay at least
lip service to religious belief. Politicians
in Canberra before each sitting of Parliament
say the Lord's Prayer.

These issues involving the relationship
between church and state do seem likely
to endure. Issues like abortion,
school prayer, same-sex marriage, the
right to die, are issues
that need to be discussed. As Suze pointed out -
in a country of such diversity as Australis is
today - and in a country that professes to have
a separation of Church and State - Christians should
be seen and not heard.

Christians are entitled to their views, not imposing them in law etc.
i.e. abortion, euthanasia, religion in school et al.
To me if you don't want an abortion don't have one but standing outside a clinic heckling women in turmoil is beyond the pale, introducing laws and trying to stop RU486 like the mad monk is wrong.
In a democracy the MPs are representatives not in lieu of. I wonder how many of his actual constituents agreed with his 'Catholic christian' views? He certainly wasn't elected to assert his personal views. He was elected to support 'Liberal' policy.
Likewise you want religious training for your off sprung then you pay for it.
The idea that Christmas is to celebrate Christ's birth is a nonsense it is about convenience and emotional(consumer) feel good.
If Christians want to really celebrate Christ then .
a. do it on the right date not 25/12 likewise let it have the same standing in law as all other religion's special day i.e.Buddha's birthday, or the Jewish main day.

I'm not saying eliminate holidays, I'm saying reclaim the religiousness and do it like all other religion's days.

My over arching point is Christians should practice what they preach " give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's" Not enforce secular power for religious bodies. the latter is simply un Christian and pure power for an unelected hierarchy.

The problem is Zealots exist on both sides of the divide.

BTW Col you have made your share of spelling blues so don't get all unctuous and throw stones even if they're rubic zirconas (Sic)

Clearly your convenient anglo Christian ethic are offended ...either your obfuscatious attacks fail to show your lack of a reasoned response. Prove me wrong.
Besides I thought the object of your deity adoration was some what less shall we say less omnipotent and more Greek classical in out look...i.e. Considered humans as worthy recipients of contempt and at best periodic pained tolerance.

Another valuable observation from Wybong.

However, I'd extend it to all religions - not just Christianity.

Wybong yes me too, my spell check has a nervous breakdown trying to work out what I am saying.
My first posts here and about two thousand in other forums bought much mirth to some.
Keep on being your self, the thread?I am biased.
forever I will dream of a world that has no need to let any church run it.
runner you are right you have every right to your views.
But as I so often point out some are just that, your views few others would agree.

Here's a good reason why some Christians could arguably be neither seen nor heard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ4dA6kZsEs

What a twat.

Well the Ivy league didn't really turn up'

I suppose I should clarify my position. I have made some statements which maybe need clarifying a little to explain my provocative statement.

To be "seen and not heard" is very dismissive, a remark commonly said when referring to children, although it is dieing out these days.

It was not however meant in that way, except to stir the pot.

Of course I believe that every person deserves equal rights, maybe more than most. Sometimes my statements may sound communistic, and I suppose in a way they are, but I believe that a hybridization is possible if it hasn't started already.

Now of course I mean communism in it's purest sense, not the various attempts that have been made by various self interest groups. This though is another topic.

Our current two major parties are both a fairly homogeneous blend of capitalism and socialism. The far left and far right are really just left of centre and right of centre respectively. Again this is

As I stated the title was more an attention getter, what I am saying goes for religion in general.

What I am saying is this....

If a discussion is about religion, and I use that in it's broadest sense. Then sure preach, but to say that "Joe Blow" does this because of his :Whatever Religion: beliefs is wrong. You are immediately assigning some Holy (better Col) status to him, or at least it can be interpreted as such.

Matthew could really said to be saying, that even a public declaration of your faith is not enough, if people cannot just look at you and see that you are.

If this is true then to keep pointing out the obvious is just boasting, or worse, pushing your point. You cannot covert someone to a Christian, by pushing your point, the decision to become a Christian must come from within, not without.

You must however witness to them, for the Lord has instructed you too, witness to us by your actions, for words can be hollow.

It is also OK for you to speak out against what the government is doing, it is a democracy after all.

It is also fine to say "Joe Blow" is wrong to do such and such, but to say it in God's name is to say God is wrong, for Romans says that nothing happens except through God's authority.

It's a long story but my daughter was once enrolled in a very strict fundamentalist Christian school, she was 6. She came home crying one day, why did God kill mummy. Sometimes "nothing happens except through God's authority" can be miss interpreted, or misused.

To cut it short, by all means have your say on issues, personalities, philosophy what ever. Just don't tell us about God, show us and if you do it good enough, we will tap you on the shoulder and say, "Hey man, I want some of what you have."

Climate change, the environment and a lot of other issues are about two moral, ethical and scientific debate. Religion just clouds the debate with emotive issues which in themselves have nothing to do with the debate.

I definitely do not believe in abortion for instance, and I am sorry if I offend anyone, that is definitely not my intention. But to deny an innocents life because of a career, money, convenience etc, and wow, some even have abortions for aesthetic reasons, is wrong.

I have expanded on this here: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3361#80133

It is because I believe in a right to life, but because I truly believe it is the right thing in my heart, not because someone told me to or because I read it in some book.

The Bible keeps saying, don't judge, don't judge, lest you yourself be judged, hey and by your measure.

What do you mean by don't judge. Do you mean to be simpleminded or nieve or do you mean Christians must not have an opinion or do you mean something else. How can people know that God is Love unless they hear about God. Christianity is God initiated. Religion is man originated. Christianity is relationship initiated by God. God created man in his own image to love {not lust} one another. Have been studying the belief system evolution not a science but a belief system. Webster's dictionary defines religion as follows:"Cause,principle system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith". Evolution is a religious position that makes mans opinion supreme and its fruit are lawlessness, immorality, impurity, abortion, racism, and a mocking of Gods word. Christians are not perfect just forgiven and are subject to failure because we belong to the human race. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God so we are all in the same boat But christians know that we have forgivness in the man Jesus and if we change our mind to line up with his will found in his word and confess our sin he is faithfull to forgive us.
Regards Richie 10

Why are children born with a designated religion. We live in a free society, except religion. This has got to be an abuse of human rights.

Because man has decreed it so. God decreed for man to believe which comes after hearing the word. Man changed it around with man as the focal point.
Richie 10

Wybong

Don't be sorry if you offend people. Jesus often offended people (especially those self righteous enough to dent their need of a Saviour). While it should never be the intention to offend people the truth does. Your belief in abortion is enough to offend people unless of course you keep it to yourself. Then again if you had a daughter who was about to murder her baby you would be very wrong not to speak up. If you re read your bible you will find that Daniel spoke up on moral issues a number of times to his King.

You will also find that the devil and his followers likes nothing more than Christians to hide away being to gutless to speak truth. If people did not speak out society would be far worse than it is now. Look at some of the Greens perverted social policies. Enough said.

Hay Richi I didn't understand any of that. Can you put it in readable terms please.

Dear Desmond,
Jesus the word God became flesh,Immanuel God with us and brought Gods word to us. He told us that the tradition of man nulify the power in the word of God. Religion follows mans tradition, opinions and ideas and rejects Gods word as the ultiment authority. Jesus said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptised will be saved." God promiced his Holy Spirit as a sign to the believer.Babies are not believers but under their parents authority. When I was young I understood that that authority was for my good not harm. hope I havn't confused you further

You will see after a few posts who this person was before he was born again, on the 17th January 2010. I have never heard such a lot of well intentioned but misguided and under researched postulation from different but predictable posters on OLO. Yes I lost my password, changed my email, and had to re-register. I have a bit on this Sunday afternoon, so I won’t take up too much time posting, but the quality of the research so far on this vital topic is typical of that emanating from Roman Catholic and Anglican Schools, and from some State run Schools but not all. On the other hand the largest Protestant Christian Church in the world, the Lutheran Church, retains 90 percent of its students for Christianity, when the others cited lose 90%.

The Church is central to good government, and jury trial is the Christian safeguard of everything you hold dear. I have chosen this name because I am a declared Vexatious Person. I am an outlaw from the Satanic Supreme Court in Queensland and the equally Satanic Federal Court. They are attempting to make me vexatious in New South Wales, and I could not care less. By its fruits shall you know the vine.

If you really want to become an educated person go check this website out. http://www.community-law.info/ On it is sixteen years of research on the centrality of Christianity to good government. When we allowed the State to become a religion, and appoint Judges and Magistrates to our courts, as State Gods, to whom we must pray for justice, like the beggars on the streets of Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane, we got what we deserved.

When these people cry out for justice, there is nowhere for them to be heard, and they cannot even get into the Federal Court or High Court Church to access Christian justice, because a Registrar stands at the gate, barring the way. We are governed today by a coalition government, of lawyers, who govern without reference to Parliament at all. By S 116 Constitution lawyer government is illegal

As the Government of Australia, the lawyers enjoy an axis of evil supported by State legislation. They have made Judges and Magistrates exempt from Federal Law, given them a special dispensation from the provisions of the Australian Constitution, and directed their members who occupy the position of Almighty God in the Christian scheme of things, power denied to even the Queen herself. In the good government scheme voted by the majority Christians in Australia in 1900, there is a hierarchy. We have no aristocrats, but we have no democrats either.

I had occasion to explain the Christian principles underlying the delivery of justice, to a fellow parishioner this morning. Every Court Order and Every Act of Parliament was required by English Law, still in force in Australia in the Australian Courts Act 1828 to be issued under a Royal Identifier. That Royal Identifier was to prove to everyone that Almighty God had approved the law, that it complied with the Holy Bible, and there was a presumption that Almighty God never makes any mistakes. Before the Royal Identifier was affixed to a law, it had to pass not just Parliament and receive the Royal Assent, but be confirmed by a Supreme Court. This has not happened in Australia since at least 1945.

Almighty God by the Gospels, which are by the Coronation Oath 1688 ( Imp) binding on Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, and by implication on all Judges, who are her delegates, divested himself of absolute power in John 5 verses 22 and 23. Jesus himself refused to be a Judge, but blew the Holy Spirit into his followers, so that twelve of them sitting together, could call upon the Holy Spirit to help them find the truth. Twelve tribes made up Israel. Twelve Australian Christians in a jury are required to legitimately exercise the judicial power of the Commonwealth. You be a judge, is it vexatious to argue that clearly enunciated Christian point. The reason Peter Spencer was up the pole was the departure from these principles. Rudd would not meet him because he may not be Christian

Not all lawyers are bad. This is Victoria. Maybe the Magistrates are born again Christians and loyal Australians, sadly put upon by their State Legislators.

IN THE MAGISTRATES COURT
OF VICTORIA
At Melbourne Case Number

Between Tony Citizen Plaintiff:
Every Street Victoria 3000

And

Ripoff Financial Services Pty Ltd
Most Capital Cities Australia Defendant

Date of Document 18th January 2010
Filed on behalf of Tony Citizen
Address: Every Street Victoria 3000

ARGUMENT

1. The Magistrates Court Civil Procedure Rules 2009 are made bearing in mind the provisions of the Australian Constitution and when there is a direct conflict between the laws of the Commonwealth and all the laws of Victoria or any other State Parliament, the laws of the Commonwealth must prevail.

2. The laws of the Commonwealth provide in S 12 GD Australian Securities and Investment Commission Act 2001 for injunctions, and these may be sought and obtained by any other person.. By S 12GJ (2) , of the Australian Securities and Investment Commission Act 2001 the Magistrates Court in Victoria is authorized to exercise federal jurisdiction, in matters arising under the Australian Securities and Investment Commission Act 2001, and injunctions are authorized by that Act.

3. The Rules provide that an Injunction may be sought in this court, and forms and guidance on procedure is contained in those Rules. The form is 20A, the Rule for an injunction is Rule 35.04, and the procedure is covered by Rule 20.03 (3). I have done all of this.

4. If I have failed through inexperience to do it correctly, can I have an interlocutory injunction, and come back with it properly prepared in accordance with your directions, under Rule 35.03. Magistrates Court Civil Procedure Rules 2009.

5. The Australian Constitution provides the supremacy clauses in S 5 Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act 1900 and S 109 Constitution and I cite them if necessary.

Tony Citizen

The only thing Magistrates have not got at the moment is the power to affix a Royal Identifier.

Peter Vexatious, all the above is very interesting of course, however, Australia is a country consisting of many different religions and Gods now.

Shouldn't we be moving away from the Judicial/Government/Christian association now? Or should we stay stuck in a time warp and do things the way they have always been done, just because it was always done that way?
As far as I am concerned, the current court system is not in good shape anyway.

Ritchie10 would have us believe that God spoke to us through his son Jesus. Humans have been around for thousands of years before Jesus and Christianity were born.

One wonders why God waited until that time to 'speak' to us? I am amazed all those humans survived so well before 'receiving the word' of God.
Hell must have been very full before Jesus was born hey Ritchie!

Dear Suzi,
When we reject the truth we tend to believe anything.
An example of this is reincarnation. The bible tells me that God made one mold Adam. He then took one of Adams ribs and made Eve. The rest of us come from the union of Adam and Eve, the human race. The bible also tells me Jesus did not come from the loin of Adam but was spoken into existance, the second Adam.
John 1-1 says In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was God.
John 1-14 says And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, as the only begotten of the father, full of grace and truth.
Jesus said in John 14-6 to 10 that he and God were one and his words had the fathers authority.
Under our own understanding we will never know the truth of Gods word
but with God the Holy Spirit's guidance he will lead us into the knowledge of the truth of the bible. The bible is the living word and can't be understood by the carnal mind for because of sin the body or
earthern ware vessel we live in dies and decays back to dirt where as
our spirit or life force goes back to God 4 judgment. Goats BUT and follow the goatherder to the lake of fire, the 2nd death. Sheep know the sheperd's voice and follow and their portion is life for ever or eternity. If you are interested in the truth and not just facts ask God to show you the truth and do not take my word for God doesn't have Grandchildren only sons and daughters and that is why religion is not the kingdom of God but man made. That does not mean that I am against the church but means Jesus must be our saviour {our point of focus} not our denomination

The number one con in the world is religion, even before birth you are conned, in the word of authority of course.
If religion was fairdinkum there would only be one brand of religion.
All brands of religion are at odds with other, wouldn't it be a good world without all this mythical bull.
Deniers of science line up of a sunday only, and clens their soul of the wrong doings of the past week, and make a start on the misdameners of the coming week.
The band of bible bashers that walk the streets with kids, should be publicly flogged, they are under the influence of misguided information.
Fairy tales went out the window years ago, even santa clause only lasts for so long.
Religion persists in the minds of a few, that have not got over their child hood.

That amazing document lawyers hate with a passion, the Australian Constitution was passed by the same percentage of Christians versus Odds sods and bods as exists in Australia today. That is 65% Christian to 35% Satan or Planet or other worshippers. That was the result in the latest census. Look it up for yourself. Of that 35% of non Christians, about 400,000 are Muslims and a couple of hundred thousand are Jewish.

The greatest movement for good in the world is the Church of Jesus Christ. The Australian Constitution modified the Monarchy of England to make it inclusive of the Roman Catholic Australians, by its S 116. That was to make Australia a United Nation of all Christian Religions, and despite their best efforts, the Australian Labor Party could not unseat the lawyer Howard, until they got a Christian Leader. Tony Abbott has a law degree, but probably because he is a Christian, he has never been admitted to the government of Australia. He may have read Luke 11 Verses 46 and 52 where the only profession cursed by Jesus Christ was the lawyers. In 2000 years they have not changed one bit. The Law Society and Bar Association are the monopoly that Paul Keating’s government abolished in 1995, and galvanized lawyers all over Australia to unseat him.

The laws that have come out of Canberra under Paul Keating’s government were enormously beneficial, but the lawyers government represented by John Howard, refused to let them be enforced, and even allowed the seven evil imbeciles on the High Court to take the Queens name off all process issued out of that Court. Royal means from Almighty God.

The Royal Coat of Arms was made to show that the Monarch was a Christian. It is still required to be fixed to every Act and Court Order by S 22 Australian Courts Act 1828 which was not repealed by the Australia Act 1986. Look it up for yourself here: http://beta.austlii.edu.au/databases.html Look up the Constitution in it and all law made since 1900 is posted there. We need a strong Christian leader

runner: "To have an opinion in a democratic country is not against the law or rebellion"

True, I actualy said something to that affect.

"yet to see the Baptist or Hillsong or Salvos or Brethren promoting rebellion against the Government"

Rebellion against the government is quite openly practiced by some religions. The Brethren ... ooo shudder, wow now there is a cult

"devil and his followers likes nothing more than Christians to hide away being to gutless to speak truth."

but he likes those that miss use Christianity to further their own agenda's better, like using His name to justify total de-nuding their land. Or to pum thousands of tonnes of crap into the air each year.

Destroying the environment that He so carefully planed, and so very carefully balanced, but woops he made one mistake, he made us with a free will so we willing destroyed most of his creations,

Maybe we will create our own rapture, the space shuttle kind, so we can go and stuff another planet up.

runner "Both are faith based comments although the Greens try and justify their comments with pseudo science."

there is nothing faith based about theory, I really don't think you have a very good understanding about what science really is. The difference is, your side says "It is not true, our side says it may be true, I know a few say that it is a fact, but any scientist that says anything is a fact, is not a good scientist.

"true science is something that can be observed and proven"

What utter rot, even Einstien said "Prove me right a thousand times, it doesn't mean that I am right, prove me wrong once and I am wrong"

The climate and environment cannot stand to prove you wrong.

My last comment on this is to quote a tactic used by Christians whilst Bible bashing.

They say in regards to believing in the Word of God: "If we are right, your soul will be saved, if we are wrong, you have lived a good clean life"

I say in relation to the carbon emmisions et al: "If we are right, your soul will be saved, if we are wrong, you have lived a good clean life"

>>"true science is something that can be observed and proven"

What utter rot, even Einstien said "Prove me right a thousand times, it doesn't mean that I am right, prove me wrong once and I am wrong"<<

Wybong,

Q. Is the earth round? A. Yes.
Q. Will that ever be proved wrong? A. Not before it gets gobbled up by a black hole.

Q. Are germs agents for disease? A. Yes.
Q. Will that ever be proved wrong? A. Not as long as there is movement on the earth.

Science and observation have shown these questions to have unequivocal answers in the contexts we currently view them in. So, given that, what runner says is perfectly legitimate. However, that's not to presume every scientific question is answerable. Aren't you making the assumption that the scientific question being posed relates to a "known unknown" or "unknown unknown"? While it may be a bit passe for some, don't forget there are "known knowns" too.

Wybong

You must really have had some strange encounters with churches. You write

'but he likes those that miss use Christianity to further their own agenda's better, like using His name to justify total de-nuding their land. Or to pum thousands of tonnes of crap into the air each year.'

In the nearly 30 years I have been a believer and across a range of bible believing churches I have never once heard this sort of rot preached from a pulpit. In actual fact any church worth anything preaches His will be done not my own. It is normally the liberal churches if you could call them a church that has decided to worship 'mother earth' instead of Father God. The vast majority of believers I know are inclined to look after the planet as well as anyone else. The fact that they don't swallow the man made gw tripe does not make them environmental vandals. You ought to try breaking free from your stereo typing.

runner; yes I have, before I became a born again agnostic.

you say: "You ought to try breaking free from your stereo typing."

"She made bad choices which were made easier by the secular society we live in."
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3374#80146
"Look at some of the Greens perverted social policies"
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3375#80188
"how dumb must the multi cultural policy makers (social engineers) be?"
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3372#80186
"It is usually the self righteous left who feel they have a right to strip off naked for any reason or throw urine at the police that you should be writing to"
Hey I have nothing to be ashamed of, and you say your God made us and we were naked, cloths are for sinners. I wear cloths for the benefit of others and they're eye sight.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3375#80125
"The irony is that the earth worshippers and politicians blamed man made global warming for the bush fires in Victoria. Both are faith based comments although the Greens try and justify their comments with pseudo science."
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=9922#159905
" secular humanism producing its rotten fruit."
"The sponsorship by the pervert industry will inevitably lead to unwanted pregnancies, abortion and violation of women."
"perverted industry will be sponsoring sex education classes in public schools" Oh no, we don't want to talk about sex.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=9922#159850
"There is nothing more selfish and self serving than this kind of justification"
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3361#80018
and the piece of resistance:
"Going to a secular psychologist will result in him becoming the victim and quite likely his parents to blame."

OK already, you proved your point, you know more about stereo typing than I do

Your nit picking expertise was beautifully demonstrated when examinator told his story.

He had a very good point, and when the finger started to swing your way, you found something that had absolutely nothing to do with such a compassionate story.

If you are a witness as to the compassion of the Lord, I will stay right where I am thank you very much.

Wybong

You write

'If you are a witness as to the compassion of the Lord, I will stay right where I am thank you very much.'

What a pathetically lame excuse for denying the truth of the gospel. It seems to me you have looked desperately hard for a way to justify your life without Christ. By all means live in rebellion but don't use me as an excuse for your choices. You really have no idea how compassionate I am or am not. You seem to have fallen for the fallacy that somehow the earth worshipers are the compassionate ones on earth while anyone who speaks truth are the hard hearted ones. Please re read your bible and stop using the agnostic excuse for denying the obvious. It won't help you when you have to give an account.

Runner,
You remind me of the man who asked god to help his business and promised to give to the church. When rich he went to church with a bag of gold coins.
The priest said is that for the church?
The man replied I made a pact with God to give him that which he wants.
'thank you my son how are you going to determine that?' asked the bemused priest.
" well," said the man" I figure it this way God is in heaven....so I'm going to throw the coins up into the air and god can take what he wants and what he doesn't belongs to me"

In essence, you use God in the same way. To you 'if God want's a safe planet he'll clean it up. If he doesn't then it's his plan.....'
What happened to your personal responsibility? to...er... perhaps use 'god' given assets wisely and responsibly. Prove to me that science isn't part his grand plan.

As I've said before the bible is a man made concoction created for different reasons than it was designed for. Then, the greatest arrogance a catholic pope decided which books went into the bible and which were left out to match HIS enhanced his power.So enough with the self referential nonsense.
And believe in God as God, with respect, not a celestially opperated janitorial service

runner my friend, I have no fear of my meeting with the Lord or of His having the last judgment of me. It is the church, and people like you, who preach love, tolerance, compassion and forgiveness, whilst having none of it to speak of yourself.

I remarried a few years ago and have come into a new family. My new wife and I went to spend a weekend with her cousin in Tamworth. Her (the cousins) attitude and persona immediately impressed upon me that this woman was a special person, I adjusted my humor and jokes accordingly.

Over the following years we met with them and spent time at there place and they ours. One day I said to my wife, "Your cousins a Christian, isn't she." she said "Very, how did I know, she keeps it to herself mostly". "Oh no she doesn't I said, she shouts it from her face".

One of the preachers at one of Sydney's most popular charismatic churches once told me that my father should hurry and accept Jesus as his savior. As dad is now 94 and still mowing his own lawns and looking after a hundred odd roses he is doing better than this guy thought.

My wife who was much more up on this than I was, told him (the preacher) she had already asked dad would he give his life to Jesus and he didn't answer.

She also told the preacher about when Jesus (or we presume it was him, to long a story for here) had spoken to dad, although at the time dad didn't realise it was Him.

She told the preacher that when she asked him if he believed in God he looked funnily at her, and I smiled. It was a stupid question, later he asked what she meant. Thats how sure he is that there is a God, no question about it.

Let God judge me by the same compassion that I judge, and may he judge you a little better than you judge.

I don't want to pick nits but people who send their children to schools for religious instruction are in my opinion completely selfish and irresponsible parents. It is tantamount to making way for a small uninformed mind to be brainwashed. There are so many religious nutters, do you ever wonder why?

Some parents are over bearing sanctimonious ah#l!s who don't care what their kids want as long as it fits with their plans and beliefs. They never even give them a chance. We are not born any religion. Some young people are so easily led they just never ever believe anything else. It's wrong, and I don't care who I offend.

Hmmmmm, if the fervent Christians of this post are any example of what we could get in parliament, then I pray we never go there!

RaeBee, I don't see why you are getting all hot under the collar about people who send their children to private church-run schools.

Often, like us, people send their children to these private schools not for the religious instruction, but for the other subjects offered or for the often vastly superior discipline practices at these schools.

None of the kids in my daughter's class even liked the religion instruction classes and just put up with them in order to go to that school.

The only other alternative in our town is a very overcrowded public high school with a dreadful reputation and with many disruptive students who were at school under sufferance.
Violence is common there during school hours.

What would you do in that situation?

To keep us in a State of Fear, absolutely alien to a belief in Christianity, the Australia Act 1986 was enacted to allow all nine Parliaments to make binding law, and break up the United Nation. Only a lawyer imbecile can accept such a contradictory Act as law. It continues and abolished the Constitution. Bob Hawke must have been having a Fosters day, when he allowed that to be passed.

As far as Christian Schools are concerned I would respectfully suggest that they have failed Australia. Not all Christian Schools mind you, but those which are sustained by the mainstream established Churches, from which ninety percent of students emerge without a Christian education. The Anglicans, Presbyterians, and Roman Catholics have students leave their systems, and 90% never again darken a Church door, because they have developed a hatred of the insincerity they feel is part of the system. The children are sent there because of the safety and discipline, but the school fails to teach them the fundamentals of Christianity.

In Lutheran and AOG Churches, where love is taught, as part of the curriculum, the retention rate for children of God, is 90%. Not my comment, that of Mike Willessee on Andrew Denton’s show. After 30 years as an agnostic, Mike discovered God actually loves him.

Probably the worst type of child abuse, is to fail to teach a child that he or she is loved. The result of that child abuse, is the belief that Almighty God does not matter. The love of Almighty God is extended to each and everyone, and incorporated into our law, by a written Constitution. That Constitution is the Holy Bible, backed up by 800 years of Parliamentary support in Statute. Our Schools, both State and Church, used to teach that fact, before the Liberal Party wanted to become the Universal State Religion, and started fiddling with the brains of our children.

The result was not what they expected, because the children became socialists and partly tribal. Christianity is anti-tribal, and when its system is adopted, tribes are subsumed into society as a whole

Yes, suzeonline, it is difficult for some parents to find decent schools in their areas. I understand what you are saying and it is not people like you that I have a real problem with. You probably have no choice and if I know anything kids that come from an open minded family tend to ignore the religious teachings as twaddle. I know I did because we still had "scripture" back then. It was so boring, watching paint dry would have been more exciting.

I am referring to schools people send their children to that are known to deliver "the word of God" in no uncertain fashion any way they can. Back where I grew up there was a catholic school for boys run by the "Christian Brothers" and a crueler bunch of b..t..ds you would go a long way to find. The number of boys that attended that school who became totally screwed up adults was incredible. It closed eventually because people started to wake up.

It is not just the Catholic schools, churches like Hill Song, sanctioned by the government with government funds (our money) are meccas for mind games, not to mention the "Church of Scientology" recognised as a church and given our taxation dollars as well. Now there are a bunch of twats if ever there were, they worship some space alien, that makes a lot of sense - not.

But people will continue to send their children off to private schools of faith, some live in, so what chance do they have of finding their own belief system? Only the smart ones who have questioning minds.

As I said I do understand where your are coming from but sorry I can't come to grips in my mind any child being made to conform to the parents' religious belief. It makes me quite angry. Children are so precious and they should be allowed to grow to their full potential, not some measure set down by family and parents.

Sometimes it is hard to determine if you read what I said, or if you maybe have trouble understanding me, sometimes I have trouble understanding myself. Sometimes what is in my heart or brain gets confussed on the way out. So I will try and explain a few points.

Richie 10:
Well by don't judge I mean not to judge. Your Bible says so, now I am saying it says you HAVE to I am saying that as a good Christian, you shouldn't.

Before you get all irritated:
The bible does of course say it is OK if you are a court ot one of its officers and against criminals.

The Bible says the church through it's officers may judge those that walk disorderly.

The Bible says that you are to judge men by their fruits (Mt 7:15-20), what it is saying that rash, uncharitable judgments are wrong.

Judgments made with a fault-finding spirit and a disposition to condemn are wrong.

Judge not - any man without full, clear, certain knowledge, without absolute necessity, without tender love

All these relate to most of you here, especialy the certain knowledge part.

So what's he going to do about it? Well Luke gives us the answer Luke:6:37

Ah but with a warning.
For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged.Mt 7:2

Maybe that if all of you read the piece "with tender love" then maybe some would see sweeter fruits, instead of the bitter twisted lemons.

Then maybe, when you front up at the pearly gates He won't say, "I have heard nasty rumours about you, so I put your life story up on forum.onlineopinion.god.hv and we will see how they judge you". DJM 7:12

Next Bible study will be on Churches at a time yet to be determined.

Peter Vexatious <" Probably the worst type of child abuse, is to fail to teach a child that he or she is loved. The result of that child abuse, is the belief that Almighty God does not matter."

No Peter, I believe that telling young children they will burn in the fires of hell if they don't go to church or if they tell lies to their parents or any number of other 'sins', are far worse examples of emotional child abuse than not telling them about your God.

You believe what you like about what God you like, but don't go telling others they commit child abuse if they don't teach their children the fairy stories you believe. That is taking it just a bit too far.

That suzonline is exactly what I mean. I think you are a good and loving parent who will make sure your kids grow up with an open mind. You did not go too far, I'm with you.

I think if the public education system was better run and funded, and the teachers were given more support by the bureaucrats as far as discipline, then the public education system might be more attractive. I will give Julia Gillard her due, that's what she is trying to do, make public schools more accountable for their performance.

Parents like yourself may not have to resort to religious based schools in the future but wouldn't hold my breath.

The question: "should Christians be seen and not heard" both not seen and not heard would be good. Only joking.

I have a quite a few really dedicated Christian friends, they are not nutters, they are just nice people.

RaeBee; You have hit the nail on my head.

Maybe, just maybe, if more Christians where like

"really dedicated Christian friends, they are not nutters, they are just nice people"

Then others may start to look seriously at what they have. What this mob have you can get any Friday evening down at the pub.

RaeBee,

For all their opprobrium, mainstream churches will never have more than a minor swipe at scientology. It long ago was recognised as a church, and they know that they have little to distingiush themselves. Any valid test of the Hubbardites will be a test of all churches, particularly the oddly similar Limited Liability Company model of the fundie franchises.

Rusty

You know to round my comments off, I don't think anyone should be seen and not heard. I was always told that when I was a kid: "kid's should be seen and not heard".

But it didn't stop me. Having an opinion is always cool, no matter what. Just make sure what you say is not too emotional or ill advised.

The debate about a republic has surfaced again. It is time people realised we had a republic until 1986, when the States decided they wanted to be republics too, abolish the Commonwealth and make Australia the United States of Australia. This was supported by the Australia Act 1986 but the same Act continues the Commonwealth. This is the result of the many atheists we have in Parliament and a wishy washy Christian Prime Minister. The then Pastor Kid Prime Minister was getting even on his Pastor Father.

Commonwealth means from the Oxford Dictionary, the official Dictionary of Australia: Body politic, independant community ; A republic. The word is also defined in Noah Webster’s large Dictionary in greater detail. It says: commonwealth : the body politic or people of a Nation: state or other political unit; a nation or state with a representative form of government in which the supreme authority is vested in the people : a republic.

The United States is a republic because jury trial is guaranteed to everyone We used to have a republic in Australia until 1970, but in that year the State of New South Wales seceded from the Commonwealth and gave supreme authority to its Parliament. This broke up the republic. Victoria followed in 1986. Instead of representative government which is accountable to the people 24/7, in the Supreme Court we now have a chance to call them to account only every four years. Give us the republic we used to have. It is called a Commonwealth. Make the Supreme Court supreme again.

Republican Government the ultimate in democracy, comes directly out of the Holy Bible, and it is time all Christians, particularly those entrusted with children’s education, fully understood the fundamental nature of Christianity, and passed it on to their children, and those they have the task of educating.

The English got a republic in 1688, when the only Monarchy to continue to the present day, was made subject not to Roman Catholic Interpretation of the Holy Bible, but to the Holy Bible itself. The Coronation Oath 1688 ( Imp) is here. http://www.community-law.info/?page_id=45

The only people Jesus Christ cursed in the Holy Bible were lawyers. The only time he got really angry was when he drove the commercial interests out of the Holy Temple. He did not get angry when they whipped him, tortured him and hung him on a wooden cross, He did not get angry with Pontius Pilate, except when Pilate offered him citizenship of Rome. To be a citizen of Rome a person had to worship the multifarious Gods, that the Romans worshipped, and many Christians died rather than worship them.

The Colossium in Rome saw its last performance when a Priest stepped into the arena and said STOP. A Centurion walked straight up to him and ran his sword through him. Everyone walked out and never came again. It closed.

Today in Australia we are expected to worship about 1500 gods, who conduct business in commercial temples erected by the nine separate States, by a State Priesthood, the same as that cursed by Jesus Christ in Luke 11 Verses 46 and 52. From that Priesthood are drawn all Judges and Magistrates. If you don’t come with a Priest to represent you, expect to be beaten. These gods have followed the lead of Mohammed, and written a Book to be used in Court. The Priests know what’s in these Books, but most people don’t.

The punctuation of the Australian Constitution is important. Our Wishy Washy Christian Prime Minister does not think so, and continues to listen to his State Priest Advisers. The word court is not capitalized in the Australian Constitution, when it stands alone. Nor is the word judges. Right from the beginning the lawyers started to con the Australian people into giving up their supreme authority.

How has this happened. Our Christian leaders have been too busy fighting each other to follow Jesus Christ. They cannot, except for the Lutherans, retain their children in the love of God. No one knows today, that the Holy Bible is the basis of Democracy. It is legislated in principle in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. A Law.

Why do I call myself vexatious. I know the law, and that vexes lots of people, especially the monopoly that sell law to hapless individuals, and rich corporations. Individuals are forced by lack of competition to darken the doors of lawyers temples all over Australia. This monopoly has closed the Temples of Justice, to everyone except their members. This is simply business.

The safeguard against such rabid profiteering, was the Royal Identifier. If you go to the http://www.community-law.info/ you will see an example of a Royal Identifier, the same as the one that was affixed to the Australian Constitution, and present on the Proclamation of the Commonwealth.

Unless that was affixed to a Law in compliance with s 22 of Australian Courts Act 1828 a copy of which is transcribed for your education on the above cited website, no law is really a Law at all. That was made to ensure that throughout the Commonwealth the rule of law remained. You will be arrested and imprisoned, if you are vexatious, and insist on the rule of law. New South Wales steals two billion dollars a year from Property Owners, as Land Tax, because it stopped using Royal Identifiers on its Court Orders. Lack of an education costs yer.

KR has done nothing for the homeless. He has four homes himself, but has not offered to share, and has not fixed the State systems that make homelessness endemic. The Australian Government is like a Church, and Centrelink is its Vinnies. Because no one can get justice in Australia, to stop people killing each other, we have Centrelink.

If people insisted on a Royal Identifier on every Court Order, and Act of Parliament issued in Australia, and we had a strong Prime Minister, who also insisted upon strict compliance, we would be better governed, because the Royal is Almighty God. The Royal Family are only his hereditary representatives, and they are subject to His Law. That law is the Holy Bible. Con men and loan sharks want a republic, so that the rich can get richer and the poor stay poor

suze: I can see you and Peter would get on, are you a lawyer too?

Rusty: remind me not to tell you next time I have an op.

RaeBee: Very true, but there can also be a time and a place.

Peter: What the

Wybong,

I'm not sure what you mean. I enjoy your sanity, long may it continue.

Rusty

Wbong and others

I have no problem with Christians as such but I tend to focus on individuals rather than organized groups (churches/ political parties etc).

I've met good Christians and equally bad Christians.I also distinguish the between good and bad ANY religion and non believers.

I would argue that "one *needs* or doesn't a religion" to be either good or moral are totally specious assertions. They are emotions on steroids.

I suggest that extremes (which by the laws of distribution constitute about 15% at either end and therefore the exception rather than the rule) are the problems.

The likes of the fundies that treat the OT as literal and sprout it at every occasion in lieu of common sense or sensitivity are more of a nuisance than setting a good example. e.g. OS I caused a problem in a crisis intervention service by reporting a fellow counselor who was quoting biblical passages to a teenager who rang up distressed that she was pregnant. Other religious counselors resigned because "the counselor" was 'counseled'. Their religiosity blinded them to the purpose of the call, the girl's distress.

Likewise the like of the aggressiveness of the atheist's archdeacon Dawkins isn't helpful or conducive to acceptance either.

In reality religion is an emotional choice "each to their own" and should have no legal influence beyond the right for reasonable practice.

Exclusionary, secretive, prejudicial (incl.sexual)or non legal practices ( female circumcision, arranged marriages etc) don't IMO qualify as "reasonable" practices.

The Catheter bit Rusty, no your fine, I enjoy your posts too, open minds and logic it appears are a rarity in here

Wybong,

If there is need, I'll polish the silverware. I subscribe to many modern innovations of surgery and you may be pleasantly surprised

Peter,

Joshua (or however you pronounce it) also cursed a mustard tree, which jehova had not seen fit to make prosper for his benefit. Only the tree suffered.

Don't fail to be productive, whatever you do.

Ever notice how many "churches" have ATM's in the lobby? Thank goodness for technology, else there might have to be a bank teller instead. Thank goodness an ATM is not a "money changer". I guess it's OK if the church makes a percentage on "hosting" the machine. That is after all what these "churches" are all about.

Rusty