Egregious animal cruelty offences are treated as insignificant by justice administrations across Australia, one example being the overturning of the sentence of Sydney financier Brendan Francis McMahon for brutalizing and mutilating dozens of rabbits and a guinea pig.

He was also originally charged with bestiality, but those charges were later dropped (why? if there was evidence to support those charges, they should have proceeded). The gaol sentence was quashed on the grounds of "mental illness". McMahon claimed that he was mentally ill from smoking hundreds of dollars a day worth of "ice" (methamphetamine)

Representations were made to the NSW government that smoking "ice" is in fact a lifestyle choice, not a "mental illness".

Pet shops continued to sell these defenceless animals to this man, and this case illustrates why animals should not be allowed to be sold by pet shops, where there is no responsibility of forethought given to their future welfare.

The response from the NSW Attorney General's department clearly rates McMahon's lifestyle choices significantly higher than the obscene suffering to which he subjected these unfortunate animals, merely affirming that McMahon was mentally ill at the time.

Now he can go out there and do it all again!

No justice system is more lacking in animal welfare sanctions than Tasmania's.

In October a sheep farmer of 20 years experience, Robert Charles Gregg from York Plains in the Midlands of Tasmania, was charged under Sections 7, 8 and 9 ("using an inappropriate method of management of an animal", cruelty and aggravated cruelty).

RSPCA inspectors found more than 150 sheep on Gregg's property had starved to death. 1,000 more were scored by a Tasmanian Government Veterinary Officer as "emaciated, near death", four were "cast" (too weak to rise), and their eyes had been pecked out by crows. Gregg said that he "didn't mean to do it", he was an "avid animal lover" (God help the animals he doesn't love), and he didn't know how much he should have been feeding them. For this carnage, he got a one month suspended sentence. That's all. The RSPCA Chief Animal Welfare Officer said that a prohibition upon his ever having control over animals again "couldn't be done because they were his livelihood"

More recently, Richard Rainbird, a farmer from near New Norfolk in southern Tasmania was charged over an unknown number of dead and dying cattle and 150 severely neglected sheep. He "didn't mean to do it" either, and got a 28 day suspended sentence. They can both go right out there and do it all again.

At least two other animal abusers failed to attend court and remain unapprehended.

Tasmania is unique in its inclusion in the Act of provisions about "using an unsatisfactory method of management of an animal", the mechanism by which the charges are little more than a "slap on the wrist". Early this year, the hideous death of the bull "After Dark" at the Carrick Rodeo was televised nationally. The people who kicked his face and paralyzed body as they forced him to drag himself to a truck, where they left him for over an hour without veterinary assistance, have been thus charged

Pleas to the supremely ineffectual Minister, the DPP and the Attorney General have fallen upon deaf ears.

Where is the justice for the animals?

To reply to Nicky, I have to agree. If you have ever had a dog or a cat, they are trusting and devoted. They will do anything for you. Then someone comes along and abuses the animal. There are only three differences between the abuse of an animal abuse of a person. The first is the animal cannot talk. The second is the punishment never is fitting. The third is they are allowed to repeat offend. So what is the solution, there must be someone in power who actually cares for their pets. I know that if someone abused my dog, I would not stand by and let the courts stand by and issue a slap on the wrist. Once the conviction was passed, I would go after them in civil court as well. I would put up posters, go to the media, appeal laws, whatever it takes to get people like this off the streets. Here is a question. If a dog bites some one, the owner is held liable and the dog is destroyed, even if it is defending itself against someone throwing rocks at it. As the dog does not understand the legal system, it is destroyed. The person does understand the legal system and has a voice, gets away with a fine. My point is the dog has to give up its life, the person walks away. There are only two things that people feel. Time and money, If they have to do time, whether it is community service or prison, or large sums of money. If the abuse of a child carries a 5 year sentence, let them do 5 years of community service, make the punishment a deterrent not a joke.

I think most animal cruelty starts with the animal being unwanted. Whether it is a paddock of starving sheep or a cat. My blood boils when I see advertisements in the paper “wanted a good home for fluffy kittens”. The “fluffy Kittens” would be better served if sold for lobster bait or fertiliser, as they are almost certain to end up unwanted and targeted with cruelty or neglect. Cats and dogs need to be registered with realistic charges not token amounts, if you keep a dog or a cat then you should pay at least $100 per year for de-sexed animals and several hundred for unsexed animals. We do not need the burden of unlimited supplies of fluffy kittens and pups handed out to anyone who responds to these advertisements.

Using the case of one crazy drugged-up yuppie to generalize on animal cruelty is not the most stable of starting-points, Nicky.

The line between being sane/responsible and insane/not responsible is one that has exercised psychologists, legislators, philosophers (and more recently pharmacologists) for generations. Refresh your thinking on it with these recent pieces:

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8453850

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8123-2251248.html

Back on the subject, I have a major problem with cruelty, whether practised on humans or animals. One result of this is that I firmly believe that keeping animals as pets carries with it the same level of cruelty as depriving a human being of their liberty and free will.

So when I see the courts taking it easy on cruelty simply because it is perpetrated on animals, I am totally unsurprised, as it is all of a piece with people's attitude in general to other species. If and when we see the light, and owning animals becomes as frowned upon as - say - smoking, I may be a little more sympathetic.

Pericles, hugely interesting links and also right at the cutting
edge of science, so I'd say way above the heads of most bleading
heart animal lovers on this thread. But certainly lots of food
for thought, for those interested, which includes me.

The question you raise is an interesting one. Is the life of an
animal, say one of our pets, better off not having been lived at
all, rather then lived as it is? Call them slaves, companion
species, whatever. Everyone has to make a living and it seems
to me that some have simply evolved to make their living in this
way.

Lets take Nicky's dogs. Would they have been better off, never
having existed, then the life they lead, with Nicky as their
"God" ? Interesting question it certainly is. I don't claim
to know all the answers.

Yup judges are lenient on animal cruelty, but they are lenient on
many crimes. I agree that people with a history of obvious
cruelty, should lose the right to be responsible for a whole lot
of other animals. We ourselves, are simply another species of
animals, after all.

Hey Pericles, thank you for the links. Yabby, are you not being a little presumptuous is assuming that those links are above the intellectual grasp of people who care about animals and justice? Beyond that, I agree with you.
Where domesticated animals are concerned, we have brought them to a position where they are dependent upon us, I think. Your average domesticated dog would struggle a bit "in the wild" (mine CERTAINLY would). On that basis alone, I think we have an obligation to care for them.
Nicky's issue really is of concern. The medical fraternity make a clear distinction between drug/alcohol abuse and mental illness, and since they can be regarded as the experts, I think the courts should have let this disgusting sadists's conviction stand. Smoking "ice", or using/ abusing any other drug or alcohol IS a lifestyle issue, if it then causes a mental illness, then still lock him up and throw away the key, I say. And stop letting pet shops sell animals, too. From Jenna

Sundog and Jenna, thank you, you are quite right. Yabby and Pericles, centuries of "conditioning" (remember Pavlov's dogs, the psychological study) has made the animals we have domesticated dependent upon us. My dogs are totally devoted to us. Perhaps that isn't how it should be, but they know they are loved and cared for, and will never be hungry or mistreated.
Not so all such animals, unfortunately. Those rabbits that the pet shops sold to McMahon without question died horrific deaths including being partially or fully skinned alive. All because he is a drug abusing "yuppie". And he gets away with it. An example should be made of him, and the equally monstrous people that Jenna describes. Those are token penalties. What an odd justice sysatem down there.
Nicky.

OT on a lighter note -

For some reason Yabby's comment...

>>way above the heads of most bleading heart animal lovers on this thread<<

... and Jenna's response...

>>Yabby, are you not being a little presumptuous is assuming that those links are above the intellectual grasp of people who care about animals<<

... reminded me of a Bob Newhart quip:

"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'"

Pericles, how very well put.
It digresses a little from the topic though. I agree with Nicky that the penalties handed down for some terrible cruelty offences are far too lenient, and therefore serve as absolutely no deterrent. The two farmers I mentioned are free to go out and starve their remaining animals to death now. They were not even fined - just short, suspended sentences. Psychological studies have established a clear link between animal abuse and cruelty and human violence, apart from anything else.
As well, here in Tasmania, two other people have been charged; one man who stabbed a puppy to death was to face the courts in July and didn't turn up, so an arrest warrant was issued - and nothing further has happened. Another, who has a lengthy history of some shocking offences (specialises in starving horses to death) failed to turn up for court early this month - and likewise - nothing. It seems that unless they come to the attention of the police for other matters, they do not bother to pick them up. Perhaps it's because Tasmania's Risdon Prison (the only prison) is at capacity - which was bad planning, since the prison has just been built.
From Jenna

In NSW common assault (human to human)can typically attract a $500 fine.

Surely this would be the approximate starting point for cruelty to animals. But since animals are considered by some here at OLO as having attributes superior to humans then one would have to logically conclude that the penalties be substantially higher.

Sounds like contributions to the RSPCA are a waste of money in Tasmania at least.

BTW I also recall a poorly publicised murder trial (no animal legal practitioners involved)..... males A & B accompany male C to his home late one night after a heavy session at the pub. A or B kill C. Case is tried but A insists B killed C and B is adamant that A killed C.

NSW judge lets them both go free. Question for the cruelty experts. Would the judge's decision be categorised as cruelty to the surviving members of C? If so what would an appropriate penalty / sanction be for the cruel judge?

Nicky

Beware of the Yabbys and the Cowboy Joes. Have a look at "Taking a Stand for all Animals" by Katrina Sharman 20/12/06 to see how sadistic and abusive these saboteurs are of animal rights. They haven't wasted any time infiltrating your thread!

Or view any other earlier threads on the protection of animals to find out how disgusting they really are.

They have condoned and defended the practice of heinous animal cruelty in all the other posts so don't fall for the bait and ignore them!

Starting with yabby's arrogant claim that "the science is way above the heads of the bleading (sic) hearts" on this thread.

Excellent article, Nicky. Keep it up!

Viva la Animals!

Ah Dickie, seeing the questions about your rhetoric were becoming
increasingly hard for you to answer, its now down to ad hominem
arguments, as I would have expected. Thats cool, I have no
problem dealing with the emotionally engulfed and uniformed.

Extremism of any kind is dangerous, thats why I prefer the
informed middle ground, where win-win situations exist for all
species, something you still can't seem to be able to get your
mind around.

Thank you for that, Dickie. I have seen posts of Yabby's on other threads, so am a bit familiar with his (assuming that it is a "he") views about animals. He has no problems with animal cruelty because animals do not matter. With regard to human to human crime, my experience is that humans have more to do with getting themselves into their own predicaments and more control over getting themselves out of them than do animals, who are completely defenceless, and at the mercy of the human species. Some animals are far more privileged than others, of course, if one considers the legislative protection accorded to "companion" animals over farm animals. That is sad - both in terms of the law and in terms of its application, animals needs are given little consideration. No-one can tell me what the end result of the "drug-crazed yuppie" matter was, but reports seem to indicate that he is out there ready to do it all again. As for the cases in Tasmania, the government and the judiciary down there should be ashamed of themselves, but Tasmania is nothing if not redneck territory. It is the only state to be allowing a duck shooting season this year.
Nicky.

Well speaking as a redneck Tasmanian, let me assure everyone that animal cruelty is not limited to this State, and that there are people down here doing everything they can to prevent animal welfare violations and bring the perpetrators to justice. You are right though when you say the juduciary down here should hang their wigged heads in shame at the pathetic sentences hand down. It is an ongoing source of frustration for everyone who's trying to stamp it out. A lot of the problems lie in the accompanying animal welfare legislation - there just isn't enough support for prosecutors within the statutes.
You'll be pleased to know the people responsible for the bull incident are appearing in court on Monday january 23

Welcome, fellow redneck Tasmanian - although you don't sound like anything of the sort. You are absolutely right, the judiciary is totally shameless in how it treats some shocking offenders. Perhaps it takes demonstrations outside the courts when these monsters are appearing, letters to the papers ... we wrote to the DPP and the Attorney General and the Minister for Primary Industries and got precisely nowhere. The RSPCA should be appealing. These people should never be allowed to have animals in their "care" ever again, as happens on the "mainland". Any thoughts, anyone?
From Jenna

Thanks Jenna.
There are moves afoot to change the system but it's a long slow and very fraught process. And it's compounded by the general opinion down here that animals have little worth. To change the juduciary, we need to change the general moral concepts of the status of animals and the definitions of cruelty. Down here, ignorance is still an excuse which is readily used as a defence. As I said it's a slow process which just requires constant chipping away and a lot of patience. Animal welfare groups down here are doing their best, but the old boys club of judges are going to take a lot of convincing.

Hi Nicky

The front page of the West Australian today portrays a picture of dozens of pigs in a small compound - so cramped that some were on top of others.

"WA piggery accused of letting crippled animals die in their own filth and feed on each other."

The piggery was raided by police and other authorities to investigate claims "some pigs had eaten others which had died in the pens, animals had been forced to wallow in filth so deep they struggled to walk and had been left to die slowly."

"Pigs were captured on video gorging on the carcasses of pigs that had died in the pens."

The video was filmed by a former employee.

"Sick pigs have been left to die outside the main pen area."

Consumers eating pigs which eat pigs? Isn't this a recipe for mad pigs' (cows) disease?

Seems our inspectors all suffer from selective myopia! No doubt the "pig" in control of this operation had accreditation!

It couldn't be any worse in Canada where a pig farmer has fed 26 murdered women to his pigs.

"He would take them into a room and feed them to the pigs", Andy Bell, a past employee told officers.

These women were drug addicted prostitutes and the self proclaimed "plain little farm boy" is suspected of being responsible for the disappearance of 65 women.

That's a lot of stock feed!

I suspect the Canadian consumers will currently be suffering strong bouts of nausea!

Poor old dickie is still getting her nickers in a twist :)

Dickie, if chucks are a problem, in WA you can buy Mt Barker
free range, no need for factory farmed chucks. Or you can
eat the free range lamb, no factory farming there either
and we know what they eat. Or perhaps you could choose
the free range pork.

As for inspectors, I remind you that the Govt has just
appointed another half a dozen inspectors dealing with
animal welfare. But we don't live in Nazistan either,
no inspectors peeking through every window to check on
everyone, all the time, thank Allah for that ! :)

The point is, yes, stuff gets reported, by the public,
staff,whoever so action is taken. That means the system is
working fine and problems are dealt with, one way
or another.

Luckily you have no say in Govt, as with your Nazistan
idea of inspecting everyone for everything, I can
think of nothing worse!

Dickie, time to untwist those nickers, sit back and
smell the roses :)

Hi Nicky

The following is a letter to the Editor in today's West Australian on the abominable treatment of animals dying in their own filth at a WA piggery:

"Piggery Filth"

"Your report and picture about the disgraceful treatment of pigs, not for the first time, needs immediate attention from State welfare groups that have avoided this far too long.

"It beggars belief that it continues, unheeded by those employed to control animal living conditions and general welfare.

"Things have never been so ignored - the size of cages for housing and the slaughtering and exporting.

"It is inhumanity at its very worst."

And the cretins among us continue to support these heinous practices!

Hi all
Yes, I read the story about the WA pig farm, and it is probably not a whole lot worse than many other pig farms. The pig "industry" admitted in a report I read that many sow stalls do not conform with the "industry's" OWN Code of practice (and they said "that's just too bad...").
Yabby, as for Nazism - I have to tell you that we have a reactive system for animal welfare rather than a proactive one (i.e. the authorities only respond when other so-called "extremist" groups expose these animal concentration camps and they are forced to do so - yes, even in WA). Does anyone remember the "Four Corners" program "A Blind Eye", in June 2004? That said it all really. Inspections of intensive farming operations should be frequent and without warning. Meanwhile, here in Tasmania, the stabber of puppies remains unapprehended, the monster who starves animals (mostly horses) to death has managed to get another series of adjournments, and the same for the Carrick bull tragedy perpetrators (the court was just TOO BUSY on the day!). The man who starved 150 sheep (+ almost 1,000 more) remains at large on his sheep property, as does the man who starved the cattle (and severely neglected 150 sheep)on his farm. Here, it is not even a reactive system. NOTHING happens. I think strong letters to the Tasmanian Law Society might be useful, cc'd to the media.
From Jenna

Well Nicky
You certainly take the cake. You go on about wanting to really do something about animal welfare. You were given that very oportunity before Christmass. You were even offered the sum of five thousand dollars to work on this doc with our lawyers.
Not a reply. Not even manners enough to say you were not interested.
Yes trivial penalites are the norm in Australia.
We strated threads named churches Turn their Back On Animal Welfare. These threads were the most busy I have seen on OLO,
Unless you shame the Churches into doing their God Dam job Nothing will change and it is! their job as leaders.
Also we need people that want to do more than just post here.
If you had of been serious you would! have got back to us.
Even if you had basic manners.
clearly you are neither
Antje

What a pity someone has infiltrated this thread for what seems to be no better purpose than starting a slanging match. I wouldn't dignify that with an answer if I were you, Nicky.
From Jenna

Thanks for that, Jenna. I won't, except to say that I did tell these people quite clearly I was not in a position to help them at the time and that money was not an issue. I did, however, give them advice on what they needed to do to sustain a business case, and there are plenty of consultants around who could have "run with that". As you say - an excellent thread has now, sadly, become a slanging match as it does every time these people get involved. They can be so insulting on occasion that I am surprised that some ban hasn't been imposed on their postings. As for the churches, I do know that some people are working on that.
Jenna, I hear that the case of the rodeo bull in Tasmania that was to be heard in January was adjourned because the court was "too busy". Is that for real?
Nicky.

Nicky
It is a matter of record[on this forum] that you said you would get back to us in a few weeks.
George a lawyer and a very busy person does not need you to tell him how to set the proposal up. What he as we were prepaired to do as you well know was pay you five thousand dollars to do some of the leg work under his guidence.
We are all simply amazed- Not that you did not want the job or the funds for that matter.

Jenna if you really care about animal welfare ask yourself what the church Leaders are doing.
Thats how elections are won or lost through Churches.

As far as starting slanging matches goes you seem to be the one looking for that because you cant possibly know the background to our comment.

We are very concerned about animal welfare and the lack of co-operation. Having five lawyers working on this progect and all putting in many hours of unpaid work along with our office and RSPCA QLD its very upsetting to have picked the wrong person who have offered this chance to.
The five thousand dollars was made up by all of us.
We offered it to Nicky becuase I thought she really cared about getting some changes.

Over to you Nicky. You said you were busy for a few weeks and would get back to us and thanked me for the oportunity.
We waited. You did not contact us despite the fact you have both phone and email address and you knew George was waiting to hear from you.
Bottom Line is.
Thats pretty rude and I thought I might tell you so.
If the cap fits.
Animal Welfare is too important to play games and muck people around.
Especially five lawyers who out of the goodness of their hearts put in five grand and asked me to pick somebody I thought was sincere.

I offered it to you and the chance to really! do something to help animals.
We are all are stunned at your rudeness

To People Against Live Exports, this thread was started with the intention of working through ways of having the legal systems, and the judiciaries of each State/Territory, treat egregious animal cruelty with the seriousness it deserves. I did not at any time say I would "get back to you" within a time frame, because I didn't have resources available within the time that you seemed to be looking for. I did say that money was not the issue and that it would be donated to an animal advocacy group anyway (probably Animal Liberation). The matter of the logistics is problematical as well. The other reason I have backed away is the apparent lack of professionalism I see behind your posts on various fora here and on similar ones. I also do not work "under the guidance" of people whose credibility or credentials I have no way of verifying (in fact, I do not work under anyone's "guidance", I have no need to), and I pointed out that to undertake a project of the scale/scope under discussion, I would want some assurances that the government had the slightest intention of taking it seriously. At this time it is clearly sold on the live export trade, and I have seen no evidence to suggest that, no matter how good the material provided is, that this will change. The government remains blindly supportive of this industry despite the occurrence of one disaster after another, and one "stacked" report after another.
Now, it would be nice to get back to what we started with, and I suggest that some "ground rules" be applied to this thread that don't appear to have been adopted on others - no "slagging off" at new contributors like Jenna, who after all, was only stating the case as she saw it, and from her home state.
Nicky.

Nicky

The one good thing is everything is on public record.

You say the Government has no intention of backing off live exports at the moment.

The Government must have a alternative.

Even if they now think they have been misguided misinformed and out right lied to on many ocashions.

Put yourself in their shoes and remember it was not this Government at the end of the day but Labour created the barbaric trade.
Dont the Dems give their preference to labour by the way.?

Hello do you think all these well meaning groups have been played as political porns? Hey AL are a really big help protesting against people eating meat.
The public and the Government are sure to take that seruiosly now arn't they?
Hello
You are aware we are working with AFIC and RSPCA QLD along with a team of lawyers

Despite your attitude towards these people it is from them! answers and alternatives must be put
forward.
btw
The Salavation Army running the drought appeal have the same rules as the Red Cross Farm Hand Appeal several years ago.

Not one cent of the public donations is to be used towards food for stock
Kind of sad when that is all the farmers are asking for- isnt it
'church Leaders'.


Your comments regarding the five wonderful lawyers and this office along with RSPCA QLD includinbg the Australian Federation Of Islamic Council is noted.

Either way on a personal not Suzanne you were very rude for no reason.
We simply offered you five grand thinking you wanted to help.
You went on posting fighting with PF and yabby and ignored George
Speaking of politics.

And still we continue to digress from the topic. I made no comments about anyone in particular, merely pointing out that I have no way of verifyng the credentials of all these people. I should point out though that I do not do "legwork" for anyone, I have people to do it for me on the rare occasions that I need activities like that done.
I don't know who Suzanne is. And it may in fact have been the Liberal/Coalition government which preceded the Labor government to which you refer which was originally responsible.
This thread was never intended to be a discussion about live exports, there is another thread for that. Nor was it intended to argue the vegetarian debate.
If we could return to the original topic there may be some people out there with some ideas (who have not been frightened off by recent posts) who may come back.
Speaking of ideas about making the "punishment fit the crime", who to target to try to ensure that animal welfare legislation everywhere protects all animals equally, and addresses inconsistencies in the law and the codes of practice, what about your lawyer friends?
And Jenna, are you still out there?
Nicky

You asked Who to target regarding Trivial penalties for animal cruelty.
Church leaders for starters. The Premiers of each state


Major TV and radio newspaper advertsing at prime time educating the main stream public.

Everybody working together

An example would be to enlighten them about farmers needs in droughts and to let them be aware that their donations 'dont go' to buy hay for stock.
Farmers are very proud people and all they really want is feed for the stock.
Instead the Red cross let animals die in the paddock and buy a kid a new push bike for xmass etc.
They also spend a large amount on sending people to chat to the farmers and family.
Oh and of course the pray .
I always thought it was an offense 'by law' to see any animal suffer while sitting on millions donated by good members of the public.
Remember the red cross farm appeal? We enquired from many members of the public where they expected that their money would be used.
Nine out of ten replied- for feed for stock.
Interesting isnt it. The Barrister for red cross stated and I will quote- I tell you right now - not one cent of that money will be going to buy hay. Umm yet they showed pictures of stock in terrible condition and lying in padocks dying to pull at the Australian publics heart strings.
So the question is - Can there by charges laid?

Right now yet again we have the same situation with the Salvation Army farmers appeal.
I spoke with the head at lenght just yesterday.
It would be nice to see the Salvation Army working together with RSPCA and helping out with feed by spending some of those millions you mentioned on another thread.
When people donate funds they expect it to go to where they directed it to.
If the public and the Animal Welfare organisations look at what possible legal action may be taken perhaps Church leaders and Government will learn Trivial Penalties will not be tolerated regarding Animal Cruelty by the Australian public.

Nicky
You asked what about our lawyer friends regarding Trivial Penalties For Animal cruelty. I dont ignore people.
Yes we got the X QLD Commishioner of Crimes and a very good silk together in 2003 to go to the Federal courts.

RSPCA QLD CEO was in support and prepaired to open a public trust account for the case etc.
I dont mind saying I didnt want to rely totally on Dr Hugh Wirth to brief the barristers so we asked Animals Australia .
Glencye refused. We can not bring on an action without documented support from each state. If all the animal welfare groups including Animal Liberation Animals Austra;lia RSPCA and anybody else you might know co operate and assist us by supplying this material we can move on.
We no longer have Tim because he is now a judge and Sams quite ill- however if you! can get docs of Evidence from each state we will look again at bring on a federal case addressing Trivial Penalties for Animal cruelty along with a host of other things.
Including making Australia introduce a reasonable animal welfare act and! enforcing it.
I put it to you that you can run it and we will support you in every way.
How say you?
Please note I am not asking you to risk your so your property.
We will take care of that.

Thank you, People Against Live Exports - I can try and get hold of what I can but I'll have to think about how to do it. I don't know the people in the groups you mention very well, but I'm happy to see what I can track down. Jenna may have some documents or reports from the cases she has mentioned in Tasmania, and in NSW I'll see what I can get through research of databases. I'm not sure yet what I can get on Victoria, and I honestly don't know anyone in Queensland I could ask. Your organization would have more influence there. I know that there were reports on the pig farming operations at the UQ Gatton University campus. Jenna, Tasmania may be down to you.
Exactly what sort of documents are you looking for? Court transcripts? Reports on raids the different groups may have carried out? What would be the basis of the prosecution? How can you run a national case, when each state has separate legislation? They can't even co-ordinate the monitoring of long-distance transports across the country.
The government thinks that it HAS addressed matters in its National Animal Welfare strategy, which of course is totally unworkable even if they ever intended it to be taken seriously, but when Senator Bartlett put up his National Animal Welfare Bill, the Committee looking into it comprised at least two farmers, one of them being a live export farmer. Such things should only be considered by people who have no commercial interest in animals, and that includes vets. For what it's worth, I did read that the last shipment of sheep to leave Devonport in Tasmania in February last year exceeded the "acceptable" mortality level and there was an AQIS investigation. It was higher than the current WA "Al Kuwait" case, according to the stats.
Nicky

'sincere' Thank You Nicky.
That would be a big help. The answer to your question is anything and everything.
Re a National case it is difficult to answer you publicly. ' The Cause of action' is something we should keep up our sleeves until its filed . We would have to find others to fill Tim and Sam's shoes[ No easy task either].
The most important thing is this case is NOT brought on by any! animal Welfare group. To do so would be a tragic error and leave us open to being branded extreamists.[ Politics]

You seem well informed so I assume you are aware that 90% of people involved in policy including ministers and advisers do have a conflict of interest and many are heavily involved in poultry pigs live exports etc.

You could ask Andrew to assist you with some info.
He wont help us because basically he works with AL PETA AA and they oppose our stand on the live exports[ ie establishing cojoint free range farms with Muslims countries and Australian Farmers.

Also from many Animal Welfare organisations point of view we have committed the cardinal sin of working in conjunction with RSPCA QLD.

Voiceless refuse to work with us for the same anti meat eating policy however they very well might supply you! and they can access much through groups they support and AA.

We would of course pay any outgoings made by yourself and Jenna if she would help you.
I know you said money was not an issue but still we would like to help.
We can help find new council and in other ways but we cant obtain assitance from the others regarding required records. Perhaps you can. After having said all of that Nicky even if we got up in court it will require some real funding to make the huge changes to inprove animal welfare in Australia. We can lean on the Government to a degree but serious money will have to be invested from overseas in my personal view.
I think I am running out of room.
Regards

Are you still bumping your gums about the same old crap Wendy? Give it a rest. AA, AL, V arent the only ones that dont want to hear it. You're like a broken record.

Wrong Again

I am not Wendy.

If they are not fans thats ok with me.

That simply means myself and others are doing their job .

Working in conjunction with RSPCA QLD doesn't win fans no! but I will contiune to do the best I can.

I am sure despite the best efforts of those you mentioned many still support us

As you hold a different view on live exports than that of myself I think you should be aware I will not allow you to stop me posting.

Its hard for me to imagine how! you say you care about animal welfare but you support live exports.

Please dont write back your endless dribble about being raised on a farm. I was born on a farm!

The last I heard of you I recall I offered to make a donation towards your book you said you were writing teaching free range pig farming. You thanked me and told me you would get back when the time got closer.

So what I dont get is why the agro towards me now?

We have all heard of or seen the blind eye on four corners and the five page spread in the Australian Newspaper.

Much of which I agreed with.

The matter of brining Australias lack of animal welfare into the courts is a basic urgent requirment.

So who cares who doesnt like whom.

Lets just all think of the animals and make our comments positive ones towards brining about major improvements.

I would thank you if you dont mind to show some respect and manners and i will try to do likewise.
Good evening

Antje

PF. Nicky Suzzane Rex
Deary me I thought I might as well repond to your comments regarding AL AA V so at least the general public might understand the fundermental difference and to what I 'think' you are refering.

First of all AA to those whom do not know is Animals Australia, AL is Animal Liberation. V is voiceless.
These are all animal groups that work with PETA. PETA is a US based group that are fundimentally fund raisers of some 40 million or more dollars PA

They are basically all veg or vegan and they certainly do not approve of PALE as PF keeps pointing out.

PALE on the other hand are not veg but welcome veg members and encourage the reopening of abattoirs within Australia to faze out the live animal export trade as quickly as possible.

PALE works very closely with muslim leaders and RSPCA QLD. We beleive that RSPCA having a main stream view and being the legal body appointed within Australia have a far more sensible approach because they are not veg vegan but normal everyday Aussies.

We strongly support RSPCA which get up the noses of those trying to strip them of their powers.
We fight for more powers for the RSPCA and far far more inspectors with some enforable codes of practise.

It may be worth mentioning when pale first started the push to do something about live Animal Exports their leader Glencye informed me personally live exports were too political as did Animal liberation and they did not touch it.
So the bottom line here is for the animals sake its a good thing that pale kicked up such a fuss about that and now at least the Australian public know about the cruel live export trade.
To help the animals its important that veg and main stream work together.
So PF we will continue to flap our gums as you put it or whatever it takes to highlight animal cruelty and if AL AA or V have a problem that we enjoy a good steak- Tough.

PALE would be well advised to cease these defamatory remarks against two of the leading animal welfare groups in this country, Voiceless and Animals Australia.

As you say Wendy, they do not approve of you – speaks volumes about their good judgement.

And just when did you enjoy your last steak?? What a hypocrite. PALE are all veggies too.

PF
PALE are most certainly not! a veg group. As you know we work with RSPCA QLD and there policy is main stream. You are well aware of that which is why you! contacted PALE in the first place asking us to help you because Animals Australia would not.
Your were words were quote "until they support the free range farmers who do the right thing they will not have my support" You asked us to put that up on our site and when we put it on OLO you complained to GY about me!

Pale are the only animal welfare group In Australia to work direct with Muslim leaders having a MOU with AFIC to try to have animals slaughtered here as an alternative to live export.
I have the same types of emails and letters both from voiceless and Animals Australia.
In those letters they clearly state they could NOT support our work because of the creulty involved in transport to abattoirs and the plants themselves.

I have several from Voiceless.
Would you like me to post them on OLO.
Perhaps I should becuase it is important the public know all the facts.!
The only person who is again! looking at legal action is you
I have invited AA and voiceless many many times to debate this publicly.
When people protest about meat eaters it does the animals a great deal of harm
You should know that. Our job is to inform the public that there is an alternative and the others refuse! to work together to get that introduced as quickly as possible.
Our interests are for the Animals Only.
Walts and all I can honestly say that fighting does not exsist in RSPCA QLD
Everybody works happily and for the common goal to improve animal welfare.
I might add they will not be impressed if you continue to misinform the public that we are a veg group.
When did I last have steak.?
Last night on my BBQ with a nice red.

PF
PALE are most certainly not! a veg group. As you know we work with RSPCA QLD and there policy is main stream. You are well aware of that which is why you! contacted PALE in the first place asking us to help you because Animals Australia would not.
Your were words were quote "until they support the free range farmers who do the right thing they will not have my support" You asked us to put that up on our site and when we put it on OLO you complained to GY about me!

Pale are the only animal welfare group In Australia to work direct with Muslim leaders having a MOU with AFIC to try to have animals slaughtered here as an alternative to live export.
I have the same types of emails and letters both from voiceless and Animals Australia.
In those letters they clearly state they could NOT support our work because of the creulty involved in transport to abattoirs and the plants themselves.

I have several from Voiceless.
Would you like me to post them on OLO.
Perhaps I should becuase it is important the public know all the facts.!
The only person who is again! looking at legal action is you
I have invited AA and voiceless many many times to debate this publicly.
When people protest about meat eaters it does the animals a great deal of harm
You should know that. Our job is to inform the public that there is an alternative and the others refuse! to work together to get that introduced as quickly as possible.
Our interests are for the Animals Only.
Walts and all I can honestly say that fighting does not exsist in RSPCA QLD
Everybody works happily and for the common goal to improve animal welfare.
I might add they will not be impressed if you continue to misinform the public that we are a veg group.
When did I last have steak.?
Last night on my BBQ with a nice red.
PALE in conjunction with RSPCA QLD

As usual your statements are based on outdated information PALE.

Animals Australia and Voiceless have my full support. Both organizations openly support free range farming on their websites.

About time you updated your sources Wendy.

BTW Were is any support from the RSPCA?

I dont like cowards.

You sneak in here "behind a Vaile" of false allegations and out right lies but dont have the fiber or decency to post in your real name.

What false comments?

Nothing I said is defamatory. What "you" are saying
"is"

You cant tell the public PALE is a vegetarian group when you know very well that is a lie.

You have forty eight hours to retract that statement. You just cant go on a online forum and make false allegations.
Read your letter again.

Voiceless informed us in writing they can not be involved with anything to do with establishing Abattoirs .

They are very new in Animal Welfare and by the way they are fantasic people.

MANY people have complained of difficulty with Glenyce so I am Robinson Cruso there.
Animals Australia - also wrote they cant be involved in helping to establish Abattoirs to replace live exports because of their vegetarian members. Animal Liberation too.

We try to convince them that until we set up alternatives nothing will change.
We have put a lot of pressure on them to change from veggies to main stream.
No we are not on good terms with "some" who roll around shopping centers with pretend blood over near naked bodies because they give all a bad name.

It works against the animals and the farmers. You said that yourself.

Nor do we speak with PETA because the Founder Ingrid is too scared to debate this with us.

This is Australia and they are a USA Group.

We are protesting about Animal Welfare in Australia being taken over by a bunch of USA extremists[ Fund raising Extremists,] because the media are branding all groups extreme, except RSPCA.

We are on as good terms as possibly with the Government who are very aware of this and the Muslim Leaders the main stream farmers and public.
Thats is because we are not a vegetarian group and "not extreme' or veggies!.
Have some veggie members.
All people are welcome.
Most People just want to help the Animals
Antje Struthmann

Hi all
I'm at a loss about how this thread, started to examine the legal context of animal cruelty cases, has degenerated into the vegetarian debate again, and it is a pity. With reference tolegal action, my research indicates that it is pretty well impossible unless you have the standing to begin a prosecution, the money to do it, and the standing to appeal a manifestly inadequate sentence like the ones Jenna described (thanks, Jenna). Getting case notes and transcripts is problematical because from what I have found in mnost jurisdictions these cases are heard in the lower courts (certainly in NSW, and I'm told Victoria and Tasmania) and you have to buy them. With the level of dedication I've seen in police prosecutors (apparently the RSPCA's instruments of choice), they aren't likely to be worth the expense. Getting material better than what Animal Liberation has got in intensive pig and battery hen farms in various states, and Animals Australia on live exports would be a pretty hard act to follow, I suspect.
None of this relates even slightly to who is vegetarian and who isn't. It is sad too to see such bitterness between people who clearly mean well, and such malice towards Animals Australia, Animal Liberation and Voiceless, too, all have made stunning achievements in the right direction. The first two have members who take considerable personal risks to do what they do, and for that they should be commended. They do some incredible stuff, including in shopping centres (and how else do you get to the apathetic masses?).
Finally, I guess it is their choice whom they do business with. As for Ingrid Newkirk being afraid to debate anything, I would be amazed if that were the case; the Ingrid I know is afraid of nothing. And clearly to do what they do, these groups need to raise funds, PETA happens to be particularly successful at it.
Can we please lower the hostilities and - PALE - you may have to accommodate the differences in philosophy of other groups to get where you want to be.
Nicky

LOL. Incredible! You want to silence my honest opinion because you don’t like it, but are happy to continue spilling yours lies over numerous threads.
I will retract nothing and please refrain from threatening me.

You didn’t answer my question. Were is the RSPCA support for free range farmers?

Nicky

Two things we can do to help the Animals

The courts which I mentioned. Happy to run with A Ls info from other states[providing the evidence was obtained legally]


[2] Co joint ventures between farmers and overseas live animals importers. In order for both those to happen we need the report I mentioned. I have warned for years not to get farmers off side.

Pf I dont see that retraction?. RSPCA QLD and PALE are supporting Free Range Farmers. I sent you their new web page for the Support the Free Fange farmers Group. We also offered to make a donation towards your free Range pig farming book.?

Breaking Rural News : AGRIBUSINESS AND GENERAL

Legal net tightens on animal activists
Australia
Friday, 23 February 2007

Under new laws the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission will be able to sue groups where their protests cause loss or damage to small businesses such as farms.

To be introduced bythe Federal Treasurer, Peter Costello, the new laws will strengthen the secondary boycott provisions of the Trade Practices Act (1974).

They will allow the ACCC to bring representative actions on behalf of the businesses affected by protests.

VFF Livestock president, Ailsa Fox, welcomed the news and said although it won't be retrospective, has buoyed the livestock industry on the eve of the Federal Court action against animal activist, Ralph Hahnheuser, who sought to destabilise the live sheep trade by putting pork in sheep feedlot rations.

"Now it seems the tide is turning on activists' activities where they are accused of damaging the livelihoods of farming families minding their business and trying to earn an honest living."

"This is a great load off our shoulders. The ACCC's involvement is welcome because it will be much better equipped to pursue activists who threaten farm businesses.

"Until now, a brave few in the livestock industry have had to fight these costly battles to establish case law for the benefit of the many. Under these changes, the ACCC will be able to take up the gauntlet for everybody."

The Treasurer, Peter Costell

Yep, this should help stave off extreme welfare groups making a nuisance of themselves to genguine farming businesses :)

It is about time these groups were held as accountable for their actions as they see farmers they prey on should be.

Retraction PALE? - read my earlier post.

BTW - nowhere on any RSPCA site do they freely support free range farmers as Al & AA do.

Have a better look at the PALE site. No links on their pages either.

Nicky
I already explained we will put up the funds and silks. Prefer to leave legal aspect and causes of action to the experts.

As its been raised - background> In 2003 we had engaged two very heavy weight silks- One no less than the X Commissioner of Crimes QLD who is now a Judge.
The President Of AA whom I spoke with at that time was more than happy to assist the Qcs with briefs, background from all states.

It was Glencye who said no! they would not co operate with bringing on a federal case. We then invited them to QLD all expenses paid to meet the Legal team. It was refused and I have a three page letter here from Glencye explaining they couldnt come to QLD. Three weeks later she came but failed to make contact. All other groups were contacted. So you tell me. These are facts.
If "you" Nicky can get briefs from trusted contacts then we can finally move forwad. Not everything has! to be done through Glencye. Lets just help the animals .
For the record we had no concerns working with AA. We all joined it.
Until Glencye instructed groups not to work with pale.

Re PETA. The PETA women went on 60 minutes saying she wanted her "body parts "kept and BBQ later to raise money for animals. Her skin was to be burnt so people would say oh theres that animal woman!
No I dont thank her Nicky for God sake. Nor does any reasonable minded person who is working hard to try to bring farmers to the table regarding animal welfare.
The poor Animals!
It is a matter of record we have always tried to work with AA. Only by all working togrether can we help the animals.
If you can help get some briefs that would be a great step foward.
The past is the past so lets get on with it.
We must have main stream groups as well as veggies.
Above all we must all work together.

It's a sad day for Australia when the tentacles of the ACCC now have the power to gag free speech.

Does this mean that I am prevented from warning friends of the rotten fruit I regularly discover in my bag after visiting a super market? Or the block of cheese that's gone mouldy after 3 days in the fridge? Am I free to advise people not to shop at this supermarket?

What about the air we breathe, already privatised and polluted by large industries who are big donors to the Liberal Party? Am I at liberty to publically appeal against the actions of a specific serial polluter?

The gagging of truth and free speech will now extend not only to animal rights groups but environmentalists etc such as Greenpeace, the Wilderness Society and the Rainforest Action Network and the list will be large.

This is not only the saddest day for our hapless animals, but the ACCC's powers will also impact on those too who are currently rubbing their hands in glee at the "good news".

Since I am now better enlightened by debating on OLO, the pending extraordinary powers of the ACCC has simply instilled in me a will to further boycott all industries where the big end of town has influenced such a disgraceful decision to enact this legislation.

Of course, the big end of town will remain free to make ignorant commentary about those sufficiently courageous to object to this unethical and totalitarian piece of "reform."

Hi all
With the best will in the world, I find that I can't get hold of evidence that has been "legally obtained". The only legal material I know of is the live export material that Animals Australia got in the Middle East. So far as I know, evidence on battery hens/meat chickens/intensive pig farms was obtained by means of "trespass", although it remains to be seen whether any cases of such trespass actually proceed). And here, I'm afraid, PF, I have to take issue with you. I know how strongly you feel about your free-range pig farm/s so I don't really understand why you are concerned about this information being obtained in intensive pig farms by whatever means are available to Animal Liberation (whose members are really risking a lot by doing this). YOU are doing the right thing, so you would have nothing to fear from them.
Dickie, I'm with you about Costello's latest proposal; it is outrageous that taxpayers' funds should be used for such a purpose (although they are used to prop up the live export trade too). In the broadest sense it seeks to stifle public debate on pretty much anything that differs from the farmers', and therefore the government's views. The question is how to stop it, although the legislation will take a long time to actually implement and with a bit of luck the Howard government will be gone and Maxine McKew will have displaced the "great" man himself in his own electorate. I read somewhere that when Howard came to power, the federal public service was made up of people who stood by their apolitical stance, and gradually those people have been removed.
PALE, as for the interview with Ingrid Newkirk, that was a deliberately out of context series of comments, and "Sixty Minutes" was simply looking for a means to sensationalize and discredit her (where is Richard Carleton when you need him?). But whatever your differences with PETA and the others are, is it not worth trying to settle them?
Nicky

Dickie
We too are much richer for having you on OLO Your sense of fair play for animals is noted and your comments are always helpful.
I feel your anger but so long as there are fair minded people like you around this will only make us stronger. Sometimes in life when you think things could not get worse or more unfair the bastards actually do you a favour. Hopefully now we will all band together and if we have two to six volunteers from each suburb and town in Australia we will be even stronger. We will protest with our feet and by word of mouth every household in Australia will know what really goes on first hand.
As for Peters Bill I think its probably got teethe in the courts.
It takes away civil rights. The world wide publicty will hurt The Government and draw attention to Australias Animal Welfare. The Government have been beaten in court before so Peter your on!

You must have given up your push for PM because surely you can feel the contempt of people even those who couldnt even care less about animals. Thanks for the extra members. This will back fire in your faces peter, big time.
Its clear you see animal welfare people as a threat to stoop to such low unfair act.
Why dont you sort out the trade deals along with your mate Downer and Vaile and let us bring some staff into this country to train people to work in the abattoirs that can be built.?

Nicky Thanks ! [ will reply next post]

Everybody we do have some wonderful news for the Animals and I will post it next. You may recall that we were praying for a gentleman to be elected as President.
A kind person with great knowledge and a big interest to help divert live export to slaughter here in Australia.
A Good man

Media Release

25 February 2007

Australian Muslims Elect New Leadership
As most would be aware, the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils
Inc (AFIC) has been under Administration since September 2006 after the
suspension of the then Executive Committee of AFIC. The Administrator
appointed by the Court was empowered to call a Special Congress in
February 2007 to hold fresh elections for the leadership of AFIC.

The Special Congress was held today, Sunday 25th February 2007. The
main Item of agenda was to elect AFIC`s office bears and the election
processes were conducted by and under the supervision of the Australian
Electoral Commission. A large number of delegates and observers
attended the day-long meeting held at AFIC Headquarters in Sydney.

The new AFIC President said that with this election a new chapter of
inclusiveness has opened for the Australian Muslim Community and urged
all interested Australian Muslims to take this opportunity to join the peak
National body.

The following were elected:

President - Mr. Ikebal Patel of ACT
Vice President - Mrs. Mariam Siti A. Kawi of Christmas Island
Secretary - Mr. Ashraf Usman Ali of NSW
Treasurer - Mr. Adnan Sert of South Australia
Assistant Secretary - Mr. Mohammad Harun Abdullah of Tasmania
Assistant Treasurer - Mr. Hafez Malas of NSW
Executive Members - Mr. Abbas Ahmed of Queensland
- Mr. Mohamed Masood of Victoria
- Mr. Hafez Kassem of NSW

For further information, please contact

Nicky
In regards to evidence I understand what you are saying. Can you get some cases that have been through the courts and light sentences been given in that cases.? We can do QLD. Also yes your wise we must move forward. I simple wanted to make it clear we are not main stream and support farmers and the truth is! the truth.
Yes indeed where is Richard . We must work harder he would expect nothing less.

“And here, I'm afraid, PF, I have to take issue with you. I know how strongly you feel about your free-range pig farm/s so I don't really understand why you are concerned about this information being obtained in intensive pig farms by whatever means are available to Animal Liberation (whose members are really risking a lot by doing this). YOU are doing the right thing, so you would have nothing to fear from them.”

Nicky – why should anyone have to ‘fear’ anything from them? This is my point. Try and look at this from another perspective, things aren’t just black and white. I talk to intensive pig farmers quite often and they all genuinely see nothing wrong with what they do. They honestly believe they are looking after their pigs far better than if they were let run free range. There are certain industry bodies that have played a big part in instilling these beliefs and back them strongly. The way they farm is legal. Attacking these people is counter productive.

I have come under attack from them because they think free range pigs will suffer and that Iam doing the wrong thing promoting this method of farming. How would I feel if they trespassed here, set up a compromising photo and released it to the media? Just how fair would that be? What damage would it do to my business? BTW – not something the extreme groups are above either because their only agenda is to stop all animal farming, good or bad. They just don’t care what damage they do to anyone along the way.

No Nicky – you have no place taking issue with me.

Reply to Nicky

Sorry, meant to say we are “not vegetarian rather main supporting RSPCA

For the sake of the animals, farmers, public, some things are well overdue to be disclosed.
It’s not in the best interests of the animals for PALE to be seen as another animal libber group.
There are some fantastic people doing great work throughout this country.

Look at yourself. Australia needs to hear from some of the others.
Have you ever heard of Dawn Low? The public need to hear far more from people like her and what about Trish Brown.

60 minutes by the way were not trying to do anything other than expose a cruel trade.
We have had steady contact with them and yes there has been some doubt if it was a mistake to only interview AA and PETA because of the extreme factor.
No that’s not 60 minutes fault it’s the way Ingrid is. PETA don’t even believe people should have a dog as a pet.

They are totally vegetarian and tell people they should not wear any clothes made from animal skin or eat meat.

Naturally that gets the farmers offside along with the Government. 96% of the public eat meat.

That makes it almost impossible for us to approach farmers with alternatives.
Want to help the animals we MUST work with farmers.

After years of nagging you can now see support Free Range farmers on their web site. Sorry not good enough.

We need a hand to establish plants here to divert live exports to carcass.
The President of the Farmer’s Federation was right. Lets find an alternative and DO it.
All AA member groups are banned from
working with PALE by Animals Australia. That’s something that has been reported to the Federal Ministers office and they are just as concerned and looking into it.

In the mean time the public are being turned towards feeling sorry for the farmers against that mad bunch of Animal libbers.

People need to become involved in looking for old or new abattoirs in their areas and talking to farmers.

"In the mean time the public are being turned towards feeling sorry for the farmers against that mad bunch of Animal libbers."

How to true it is. You guys are your own worst enemies. A little less infighting would help the cause.

PF
For once you are SO right and it is not coming from us. We all! joined AA as private members. We sent info offers of lawyers. By the way we think Lyn White is fantasic.
However the one big difference we have is we want to donations to go towards A. Advertsing and promting Free Range Farmers such as yourself.
Mr or Mrs Pig Farmers face on packets of Free Range Pork or Chicken or whatever. Things children will learn very quickly. look mummy buy Mrs Piggys meat Shes kind to the animals. Problem is we cant promote free range to woolworth or any where else when there IS none[ or very few]
I am sorry but I think we need to promte farmers like yourself in a very big way. We also require people like yourself to train others.
Thats not happening. As far as we are concerned regarding pig farming your face should be everywhere. Its a missed oportunity for the animals and free range farmers and I am personally furious about it.

We want to oportunity to to introduce Free Range Farmers to overseas investors .
No for goodness sake nobody wants to take your farm or their farms before you say that again.
They only want to - If you like take over the intensive piggies with Free Range and Poultry- They want the business not the land or farm.
What the farmer gets in return apart from clients are funds to improve their properties to expand their free range farms and where suitable add on a plant for value adding. Yes at times more land will have to be purchased.
That will be between the farmer and the investor when the time comes to sort between themselves.
I would propose that a company purchasing lets say five hundred acres might share the ownership of the new land fifty fifty with that farmer provding the farmer continued to supply product. We are prepaired to assist with legals for farmers to a degree but the choice is totally there's to make.

Heres a website you should take a look at:

http://www.freerangepork.com.au

PF, that's a really good website - and it is informative without "bagging" anyone. Is that website any relation to what PALE is doing, or seeking to do? And I apologize, it was not my intention to offend you. I just can't see how anyone could possible believe that keeping these sensitive, curious, intelligent animals under the conditions they do, barricaded into such small spaces, forcing them to live in their own excreta could be humane. I guess they don't really want to know about animal physiology otherwise they would find out the degree of suffering they are inflicting on them in their in their short, miserable lives.

PALE, I will try and find what information I can on court cases - I know I found some media releases at a website called www.liveexportshame.com about the cases Jenna mentioned in Tasmania. I'll see what I can search out in NSW. That website contains media reports about animal issues other than live exports in a separate section so there would be some material there. But it is huge!

PF, and anyone who feels similarly, you are tending to label anyone who disagrees with SOME farming methods as "mad animal libbers", when my experience has been that most simply want the cruelty to stop. You pointed out yourself that AA and AL support free-range farming. What I would like to see stop is the way egg-laying hens are forced to live (I have some that I bought from a battery farm, and how tragic they were!), meat chickens, battery-farmed rabbits and intensively farmed pigs - all of those suffer terribly, away from the public gaze. Feedlotted cattle and "shedded sheep" are not much better off, and some of the long-haul transports are atrocious.
I know that groups that I've had dealings with have a majority of members who eat meat, wear wool and leather and have "pets" but they despise the cruelty.
Nicky.

PF Excellent!

Could you enquire please if we could put it up on-
Our web site and RSPCA QLD web site.

Free Ranger would like it also.
If it’s no that’s ok ...

Please take another look at this one which we wanted to pass over to somebody with more time to help complete.
http://www.freerangefarmers.com/freerange/

We would like to feature the one you put up on our Free Ranger Farmers Support Group. You are the only Free Range Pork Farmer in Australia that has put in a real effort.
You are the the animals best friend.
This should be on every site In Australia. Tell me without taking this the wrong way.

Is it up on AA AL V sites? It should be.

Nicky yes we are trying to do the same thing.
The Free Range Farmers support group is sadly in need of a leader.
Its Australians first and very necessary to try to work with farmers and not against them. I don’t suppose you would be interested to take it over and we would support you in every way possible all expenses paid.

PF could give you lots of information. {Far more than us

She’s really got the knowledge Nicky and it would be good to have her traveling doing lectures on totally wild Bindi Erwin etc.
PF willing of course.

Nicky yes the Shame web site is Dawn. The knowledge and what she’s done is amazing. She also knows Trish and many others who are not extreme which is why they have branched out on their own.
Getting the briefs is huge you are correct. At the end of the day it’s quicker if we put intensive farmers and live exporters out of biz.

We can do it IF we can get the farmers onside and a bit more help.

Nicky I want to ask your thought on this please. Today I was speaking to Peter Costello’s office.
What would you think about passing a bill making it law that public funds raised by Animal Welfare groups had to go back into improving conditions

[After costs].

.

Hello All
I have been out of the office for a week and about to leave again
I was interested to see the response but not surprised when there was none. Dissapointed for the animals but not surprised,
I rest my case

I have been away and out of communication as well. Sorry about that, more later.
Nicky.

Hi all
PALE, firstly, I wouldn't be in a position to run with this, with my current commitments, and I would also have some 'in principle" issues with it. It is also not that simple, for example, the person you seek would need to have web design training, and be far better informed than I am about the matters you talk about.
I do, however, think that it is an OUTRAGEOUS suggestion that the government should EVER be able to determine or direct the expenditure of animal advocacy groups - this government in particular. However, the RSPCA, which does receive government funding in some form or other in all states and territories, should be more accountable, and be directed in how it spends that government funding rather than tying it up in investments.
Other groups do not receive the same government largesse and work very hard to raise the limited funds they have. My experience with those groups is that individual members mostly fund their participation in activities themselves.
Farmers, on the other hand, receive more than generous funding from the taxpayer, and the bottom line is simple - if you cannot afford to properly care for the animals you have, then you should not have them. And perhaps you are not very good at what you do. There is no excuse - ever - for animals being allowed to starve in paddocks as in the cases described earlier by Jenna, for example (and those occurred before the drought). PF, I do not firect any of this in your direction because clearly you DO care for your animalsd, and far better than most.
Nicky

Nicky

Well That sorts the men from the boys. Yes I know all about self funding.

I do this work it because I care and not because its a paid job.

When I said ALL money raised by ALL Animal Welfare groups[above outlays] it included RSPCA. 'Actually especially'.

I also think that NFP should be ALL non paid staff .

Many spend most of their time raising funds to pay themselves.


The intensive piggerys who say they cant afford the improvements is surely something all Australians who have dontated to would like to see their money going into.

The Red cross Appeal didnt give one cent when it should have to farmers to get feed to animals. Nor is the Salavation Army Farmers appeal thats running at the moment.

If I donate fifty or a few hundred dollars I for one want to have a say where its going.

I think most people feel its their right. I want my fifty to go direct to getting water and hay to stock not funding some trip to india to research elephants- Whatever

It SHOULD be going either into A Court cases B TV and Radio Newspaper advertising BUT after that and costs it should go straight to improve conditions for animals.

They could arrange to pay the builders and arrange to supply the wire matting , materials, food ,vetinary and the list is endless.
BUT the Fee world travel and paying themselves wages should NOT be allowed.

I notice the free range link PF put up is NOT on V or AL or AA. See what I mean? They should be thanking their lucky stars.
The Babe thingy is great but lets face it this has been going on now for years and many more years.
Until we open more Free Range Farms its stupid telling everybody to take any pledge.
The fact IS the Free Range Farmers need a lot more support than just- buy free range written on a web page.

But what the hell!- Its a good fund raiser turning the public against the farmers.

Fact is .......

http://www.savebabe.com/freerange.html

http://www.voiceless.org.au/weblinks/Organic_%26_Free_Range.htm

PF
Thats fantasic.

Thank God all our pushing has paid off.

As you know before you contacted us they simply refused! to support x?

Now as the site is on public record is there a problem putting it on the other three sites as well?
Do let us know please.
I will write To Brian Shermann and offer the Free Range Farmers support Group web page to them as a gift.
Now may I ask what is being done to increase Free Range Farms to compete with intensive ones?
You said you had friends and contacts so if any of those would like to meet with Russian Business men interested to become involved with Free Range Poulty Pork etc please let us know.
All contacts will be sent direct to whoever is interested and that is the end of our involement unless we are requested by either party to assist.

I am delighted its up PFn At last. Its a foot in the right direction!

Last quick one for tonight...
PF Thanks for those links, and it is good to see them. I don't think that most contributors to animal advocacy groups would want to see their money going to instensive pig farmers who CLAIM not to be able to make "improvements" - I certainly would not want people who have made their money out of suffering animals benefit from anything for nothing. That is essentially supporting what they are doing.
People capable of that degree of cruelty cannot really be relied upon to be remotely truthful, and in that sector there is a strong tendency to "cry poor". I think PF pointed out somewhere that changing to free range in fact doesn't cost that much - a paddock is a paddock, and that, with shelter, is what pigs need. No, I wouldn't give these people a cent.
I am happy to contribute however to such things as investigations like those carried out by Animals Australia in the Middle East, and there is the difference.Animals Australia and Animal Liberation do not have many paid staff, as I understand it. Nor can you get too many people to work for nothing (unless you are Centrelink, of course!), and often those who work for nothing are not exactly quality staff. I'm away for a few days now. See ya,
Nicky

Nicky

I am away soon also. Come on Nicky between RSPCA and Animal Lib groups we could re open and built several new abattoirs.
Sure I hear people screaming that the money should not go to killing animals but saving them.
So whats really required is better understanding that 'sadly' farm animals are bred for meat BUT it should be done here.

The other thing you mentioned I dont agree with Nicky-
When you get non paid staff working for the pure ;love of animals you will always get better results.
Not just animals but every thing.
Who remembers the fantasic Salvation Army years ago before they had paid postions in shelters and other areas.
I do. Let me tell you the world was a whole lot nicer then because you had people who actually cared about what they were doing.

What we require to help Animals is for AA V and AL groups and or members to help identify farmers prepaired to look at dealing more direct with their overseas cutomers.

We need to see far far more being done at grass roots levels WITH Farmers] Good Ones Like PF.


Help the Farmers covert to free range and that will stop a lot of cruelty.
You do that by asking your members to speak to any local free range farmers of anything.
Also as for intensive piggeries set up some free range ones and run them properly as regarding animal welfare.

Then train the young ones.

Run it properly and make a good profit and turn that one into another free range pig or poultry farm. Thats how you do it. You put the others out of business with heaps of public support buying only free range. However you must be able to supply! first. Get Woolworths involved I am sure they want to be seen in a good light with the public and they are certainly not adverse to branching out lets face it.
I am leaving as well. Have a good trip Nicky PF Goodnigh

Boys Get 10 Years for Cooking Dog
Posted: 2/24/2007 5:48:49 PM
ATLANTA (AP) — Two teenage brothers were each sentenced to 10 years in prison for torturing a puppy by cooking it in an oven.

Joshua Moulder, 17, and Justin, 19, pleaded guilty in January to charges including burglary, criminal damage to property, terroristic threats and cruelty to children.

The brothers brought neighborhood children to see the dead puppy, then threatened to kill them if they reported it, prosecutors said.

Police said they found the dead mixed-breed puppy inside an oven at an apartment community centre Aug. 21. Scratch marks were found inside the oven, indicating the puppy had been alive when it was placed inside, prosecutors said.

A necropsy on the three-month-old dog found its paws and snout had been duct taped and it had been doused with paint before being placed in the oven, prosecutors said.

Authorities also found damaged computers, broken glass and splattered paint on the walls of the newly refurbished community centre.

The brothers' first trial ended in a mistrial in December. Their lawyer, Timothy Owens, said he had hoped his clients' sentencing would have focused more on rehabilitation than incarceration.

{ Lets check to see if they do the ten years. Bet they are out already as this was a while back

Cant you just hear the- Oh they were only teenages!
its sickening.]