The Government's citizenship test will most likely cause discrimination against new migrants from new and emerging communities, as well as refugees from non-English speaking backgrounds. This writer completely disagrees with the Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs Andrew Robb, claiming that Australia has one overriding culture and maintaining our identity as Australians. The values of freedom, democracy and the rule of law are clearly universal values. Multiculturalism in Australia has demonstrated that our diversity is a value that makes us unique and strong. We have had a very successful migration program where we have welcomed more than 6 million people since World War Two to our shores and provided them with the opportunity to begin new life. The Citizenship test is discriminatory and our reputation of being one of the most successful multicultural societies in the world today has certainly changed.

In countries such as in Europe and the United States that have citizenship tests, they don’t have a societal multicultural value or policy. Mr. Howard stated that the test would include an understanding of English, Australia’s history and cultural values, as well as the concepts of mateship and a “fair go.” This writer believes that proposing and approving such a test would truly damage our value of a “fair go.”

In saying that, most African humanitarian migrants are illiterate in their own language and didn’t have the opportunity to receive a decent level of education due to their hardships. By learning a completely new language reading from books and texts is a new aspect to them. The Federal Government would also have to place resources in developing these learning programs and materials, resources that could be invested into our educational system. The first issue migrants stress about is how to survive and make a living, learning English will automatically come to them as they involve themselves in our society.

Multiculturalism has enabled ethnic communities to embrace and celebrate their traditions and heritage. By implementing an English language citizenship test, the Federal Government has denied potential Australian citizens from non-English backgrounds and has abandoned our true national identity.

Yung,
I stand with you against the citizens tests etc outlined by Howard -though for different reasons-I think any such tests would be largely worthless. The real crooks/conmen etc will get around them through bribery or lies. (as they are doing with many of our current immigration standards/requirements)

However in the interests of giving ourselves a “fair go” we have an obligation to be as tight as necessary in accepting immigrants, my contention is, we have no place accepting people who cannot assimilate or meaningfully contribute. I have an in-law who cannot speak English despite attending numerous govt/council funded English courses, over many years. As soon as he is home he speaks his native language & never tries to use English , the English classes have been more like a social club for him. Additionally, he has never once worked or paid taxes in Australia, but receives full social welfare( & there are many like that).

You talk about success of assimilation in the past.
But in past you had heavy economic & social sanctions on those who did not assimilate.If you didn’t learn English & mix, you didn’t get a job & you didn’t prosper.

(While many communities have an excellent record of assimilation & contribution, a number do not.)

Now some communities are large enough to have their own special schools ,clubs, special broadcasting services,& regularly import marriage partners from overseas -none of which as a single issue is detrimental -but taken together, allow them to operate with a large measure of autonomy & insulation.

Additionally, now you have a host of special human right bodies & ’academics’ who periodically measure the success of every special interest/ethnic group ( multiculturalism has been a real boon for second rate academics & bureaucrats ).If the XYZs ethnic group has more than its share of unemployment , poor standard housing or crime -its never XYZs fault -it’s evidence of discrimination & reason for castigation of the mainstream culture & reason for positive discrimination & handouts for the minority.

Please show how “ Multiculturalism in Australia has demonstrated that our diversity is a value that makes us unique and strong”. In the first place, we are not unique (the only country in the world which practises multiculturalism). Unique means one only! That knocks that in the head. The only one you have to clear up now is how multiculturalism has made us strong.

Australia should be about Australia; not about accommodating “ethnic communities” wanting to “celebrate their traditions and heritage”, but who do not wish to live in their own countries

i dont understand why the test is not administered before people are admitted or given entry visas.

Surely this would be best for both parties.

People who dont like the way of life or do not want to learn english may not bother coming.

Also existing Australians will not have to meet the cost of attending to malcontents, who might have found another country more suited to their way of life or stayed where they were.

To Horus, you wrote

"Now some communities are large enough to have their own special schools ,clubs, special broadcasting services,& regularly import marriage partners from overseas -none of which as a single issue is detrimental -but taken together, allow them to operate with a large measure of autonomy & insulation."

You obviously are very young, or haven't looked around you very much. All new migrants since WWII that had any numbers, have had their own clubs, Saturday morning language classes for their kids, I remember going in the 1950s.

But I am from Northern Europe so I "look Australia". I get extremely upset when I am on public transport or out in public and some Anglo-Saxon starts making some derogatory comments about Asians, Middle Easterners or other obvious Non English Speaking Background people, assuming that I share his/her prejudices. You know, the "spot the Aussie" type comments. Some of these Anglo-Saxon people weren't born in Australia anymore than I was, and those he/she is disparaging might very well have been. I soon put them right about my background and that I am an Australian by choice, I have a piece of paper that says I am an Australia citizen, though that doesn't mean much under Mr Howard's govt.

Talking of ethnic clubs and associations, what about the UK Settlers Association who see themselves as British rather than Australians and don't take out Australian citizenship and fly the Union Jack at their meetings. What about English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish clubs and associations, do you object to them to?

Every single person in Australian is a migrant or descendant of migrants unless they are Aboriginal. Australia has been a multicultural, immigrant country since 1788 and its culture is still developing. The so-called "real" Australian culture is English-Irish with the Irish predominating.

I agree with the person who started this thread.

The test that potential migrants need to do is not to keep non whites out, in fact the majority of my co-workers come from India and they speak English very well even though they will exclude fellow workers from their conversation by speaking their native tong.
They are also not interested in the Australian culture and are down right arrogant.
This does not apply to the Anglo Indians.
At work we use to say "Too Many Chiefs not enough Indians"
I can assure you we have to many Indians right now and just as they have done in Fiji, Mauritius and several other countries they will take this country over unless we stop them.
There are thousands of Europeans that would love to migrate to Australia, but we seem to prefer to let the people in that stuffed up their own country.

Bring back Pauline Hanson.

Yung Yong,
Your statement that: “The values of freedom, democracy and the rule of law are clearly universal values. This is unquestioned by the free Western Nations, however many cultures such as Islam, do nor believe or uphold these values, Iran or Syria for instance. They see the democratic system now introduced into Iraq as a work of Satan that must be overthrown by the true followers of Allah.

Leigh, I totally agree, “Australia should be about Australia; not about accommodating “ethnic communities” wanting to “celebrate their traditions and heritage”, and who do not wish to live in their [native]countries.”

The most important test is do they understand common Australian courtesy, language and law. No society survives in harmony that is divided into tribal communities of social culture, language and law

“The Government's citizenship test will most likely cause discrimination against new migrants from new and emerging communities, as well as refugees from non-English speaking backgrounds” is a diplomatically constructed politically correct sentence sounding to non-Anglo Australians as a next testimony to their leaving in a state called Australia different from one its author does.

Only someone fallen from the Moon could use a future verb tense while describing further legitimating of institutional racism and xenophobia well flourishing in Australia already.

I did arrive into conclusion that “Australian multiculturalism” as of the sixties a national-liberal invention preserving traditional Anglo-racism and UK-style apartheid in recent form benefits just a growing cohort of particular bureaucrats paid for singing songs about "multicultural issues", unification of citizens should occur on common civic liberties and real equity rather than on pushing into a circle of a loyalty to overseas royalty by de facto simply preventing non-Anglos from obtaining citizenship's rights of a predominantly Anglo political entity built on the land grabbing and murdering of less fortunate pre-owners.

I disagree with the assertion that requiring someone to be tested competent in English is racist.

The reasonableness of the requirement can be reflected in the fact that many other countries require migrants to understand the incumbent culture, government and constitutional processes and the language of the land.

The last point “language of the land” is particularly important. It essentially refers to the language which the laws of a country are written in. Ignorance of the law is no defence and anyone who cannot speak English in Australia is living in ignorance of the laws which significantly prescribe and proscribe their actions.

A nation which has multiple “official languages” is fractured and lacks social cohesion, Canada for instance with French being the official language of Quebec and English the official language in the other provinces.

Multi-culturalism is merely a steppingstone to full assimilation, not something which will endure.

Well said Leigh Those who do not want to be “Australian” should go elsewhere.

MichaelK, more of your own form of racism and baseless ignorance. I advised you on another thread, I had decided your facility for chaining English words together, whilst ignoring even the most basic rules of English grammar, was merely the perverted product of your own ignorance. I see you have still to learn the lesson that; simply being ignorant is excuse neither under the law nor from appropriate criticism from me.

Regarding “pushing into a circle of a loyalty to overseas royalty by de facto simply preventing non-Anglos from obtaining citizenship's rights”

If you do not like it, return the festering stinkhole from whence you were spawned, regale them with your racist vitriol and see how long you are tolerated.

As for “Anglo political entity built on the land grabbing and murdering of less fortunate pre-owners.”

That Australia was colonized by the British merely show how fortunate Kooris were. Had they been colonized by the Spanish, French, Portuguese, German, Japanese or Indonesians and colonial history is any basis for assumption, which it is, we would have no “aboriginal” problems today, they would all be extinct.

All this talk about "ethnic" communities, as if being ethnic was something different from the "us", every single person on the face of the earth, is "ethnic" something, and that includes Anglo-Saxon-Celtic background Australians. They are English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish, though many like to make much of their Celtic ethnicity. So when you talk about "ethnics", you are including yourself. Britishers are a mixture of nordic/germanic = Anglo-Saxon & Danish & Normans, who were original Vikings; indigenous Britons of various tribes, Celts, through in a bit of Spanish and French. All western Europe was originally Celtic.

Australia does not have a fully developed Australia culture yet, this takes many centuries if not millenia. The Australia culture is still growing, it is still basically Irish, with the English (like Mr Howard) believing they should rule over them.

Mr Howard believes republicanism is being pushed by those of Irish Catholic background in this country, like Paul Keating, I heard him say so some years back.

As for migrants not bringing their ancestral fights to this country, right from the beginning of white settlement till now, there are still the Irish - English disagreements.

RaggetyAnne said:
“Every single person in Australian is a migrant or descendant of migrants unless they are Aboriginal.”

Such a comment is typical of someone who has absorbed the mores of multiculturalism:You see multiculturalists talk of equality but they always have their special status groups -those who are regarded with a little bit more reverence than the rest- and they typically ignore or hide history which is politically incompatible with their dogma .
The truth is, we are all migrants -INCLUDING the aboriginals -its only a question of timing/duration!

And the “racist “ jokes comments etc you heard on the bus/train are not unique to Australian society.
They can be found in all cultures/countries /groups.
A far more virulent form of racism is seizing on such ‘examples’ to demonstrate/prove that racism is somehow endemic to white Australian culture .

So, what about "language of the land": "Australia does not have a fully developed Australia culture yet, this takes many centuries if not millenia. The Australia culture is still growing, it is still basically Irish, with the English (like Mr Howard) believing they should rule over them"?
Irish? Scottish-or any other European racist fore-breads - local fascist party then members many of, used to dictation for passing a test on local citizenship?

Michaelk “Australia does not have a fully developed Australia culture yet,”

Nowhere on earth has a “developed culture”. Every culture is continuously evolving. What we do have is an English based culture which, considering the results of every other nations colonial development, is one of the best things Australia has going for it.

Now open season on stupidity.

MichaelK “Irish? Scottish-or any other European racist fore-breads - local fascist party then members many of, used to dictation for passing a test on local citizenship?”

“Racist fore-breads”

Oh dullard, I think that should have been “fore-bearers” or maybe “fore-bred”.

As it is you have suggested something as silly as Marie Antoinette’s “let them eat cake”.

Of course, it could just be a racists attempt to request we slice the “whites”.
Seems to me Michaelk is being a bit of a loaf.

Next “dictation”
The local fascist party members requiring someone to take “dictation” before becoming a citizen?

As the boss said to the secretary, “Come here Ms Smith and take something down for me”.

I look forward to your next assault on the English language, Michaelk, with pickle (oops, relish).

The instigator of this topic, Yung Yong, has not been able to back up his assertion that “Multiculturalism in Australia has demonstrated that our diversity is a value that makes us unique and strong”.

The “unique-ness” is obviously wrong (perhaps emphasising the need for a language test), but the parroted claim that there is somehow ‘strength in diversity’ remains unanswered.

There is, of course, no answer. The idea that strength emanates from difference is totally incorrect. The mantra has been repeated so many times by multiculturalists that people too lazy to think for themselves have come to accept it.

Strength is possible only among people who speak the same language and have the same mores and ethos. Whether or not it is acceptable to have people of greatly varying backgrounds in Australia is one subject which will probably never be exhausted. But, to suggest that people from different cultures, wanting to live as they did in the “old country”, has any benefit for Australia is nonsense.

People who broach a subject should be able to support their own contentions on the matter before they put it up for discussion.

RaggedtyAnnie’s comment about Australia’s not having a “fully developed culture” is another scrap borrowed from the extreme left fifth - columnists. Read some history and find the truth!

The same goes for the tired old nonsense about every Australian except blackfellas being migrants or descendants of migrants. Well, Annie, the blackfellas came from Asia – so you would call them migrants, too – and it’s how the rest of us see ourselves that’s important. You will obviously always be a migrant. That’s your mindset. But there are people living in Australia who see themselves as nothing but Australian, even though they might be of first generation. Then there are people from Italy and Greece, for instance, who have been here for many generations who will always see themselves as Italian or Greek.

Australia, like any other country, needs people of similar backgrounds and beliefs.

Regrettably, progress brings about some new problems along with simplifying day-by-day living activities.

A good example of seemingly a positive process is MWin auto-correcting, which automatically changed letters in messages to “fore-breads” for instance.

And even much better example of bad bad bad is a proposed English-speaking test where as usual assuming follow citizens being under-humans or degenerates to the best, a following up London’s orders residing in Australia Anglo-elite consciously perverts superficially looking as not-so-bad idea of broadening a knowledge of a new place called Australia with passing a test in the most hard part of a language proficiency which is a verbal use of language.

This request is factually substantiating a very notion of being law obedient responsible citizens on merits of belonging to a particular language group only.

That is what perfectly presents mere explicit natural Anglo-racism, which might be to some extent understood in a nation’s cradle – England herself, but cannot be tolerated in the UK semi-colonies well existing on discrimination of non-Anglo-Saxon-Celtic population while established by stealing lands round a globe.

Leigh encapsulates the classic "integrate or stay away" complex of many posters here.

>>to suggest that people from different cultures, wanting to live as they did in the “old country”, has any benefit for Australia is nonsense<<

By that reasoning, the first European settlers here would be obliged to live by the same rules, and abide by the same cultural norms, as those already living here. What, exactly, is the difference in logic between the theories then and now?

If the answer is "ah, but our settler-ancestors developed the country, created its economy, and gave it its true identity", then exactly when did the country stop being an outpost of its Anglo-Irish heritage - the old country, as Leigh describes it - and become the Australia of his imagination?

Pick a date. Explain to us multiculturalists exactly what Australia was before that date, in terms of its makeup, background and culture, and what it was afterwards.

Or perhaps he is saying that by occupying the country as they did, all rights of the existing population became secondary to those of the invaders. If he supports this view, then I suggest he forfeits all right to objecting to the influx of people-not-like-him.

Perhaps because of my own history, foreigners have never been a problem for me. I don't fear them, as some folk here do to the point of hysteria (yep, that's you Boaz), nor do I resent them. I wish the hard-working ones well, and condemn the hangers-on as equally as I do those Australians who don't pull their weight.

Asking people to sign up for a citizenship test is, I would suggest, ultimately meaningless. Those who want to become citizens will study and pass the test (I got 85% on the equivalent US citizenship test with only general knowledge to guide me), those who don't, won't bother. It is simply another piece of government grandstanding to gather a few votes that otherwise might fall to Ms Hanson.

Pericles,
you make sense. I made a similar argument in another multicultural discussion some time ago about the rights of the existing population but it seems that many people in OLO are selective and only look at points that fit in with their own perspective. They forget that the indigenous people already had a developed set of laws and that the settlers developed Australia at the expense of the indigenous people’s freedom.

Leigh,
If you don’t find Australia unique and strong, do you find it a common and weak country?

I do find Australia unique as a multicultural country because it is, in number, the most multicultural country in the world; it has the most widespread diversity of nationalities and cultures.
Australia is really a microcosm of world traditions. Nowhere in the world do countries deal with a diversity of over 200 countries.
I find Australia, for that reason, very interesting and unique. I do love the diversity, the many interesting cultures and traditions, all being able to express their cultures (within the Australian laws).

I find Australia strong as well.
The fact that Australia has a good, basic and fair multicultural policy in place makes it a strong country in this regard. (Yes, Australia has its weaknesses as well, but we’re just focusing on multiculturalism here.)
Australia has an ability to accept and welcome many nationalities and their support of such a big diversity does make it a strong nation.
Continued below…

Expecting new immigrants to suddenly pass a language test is illogical and unfair, seeing that Australia has a literacy crisis in where, according to the latest figures of ABS, most Australians classified as illiterate are to be found in four groups: the indigenous; people with lower education attainment; over 65; and male.
To force new Australian citizens to be literate while not even being able to cater for the existing population is in my view, unfair and discriminatory.
I agree with Yung Yong that recourses should be invested in our educational system so all children including children from migrants can profit from a better education rather than one that is failing so many of our children. Of course, English classes should be available to migrants. We made use of the English for migrants course that TAFE was running and this was much appreciated.
Almost all immigrants from Europe now do know Basic English as it has been for some years, in most European countries, a compulsory subject at High schools.
That means that the white immigrants do have an advantage- and this is where a language test makes immigration unfair.

What I would like to see though, is for one main language to become a compulsory subject at High Schools all over the world so that it will become everyone’s second language and everyone would be able to communicate.

The English test etc is not for visitors or temporary visas to Australia, they are for people intending to reside and become citizens. Where is the racism in in such a test? Those refuting the need for such a test appear to be the ardent racists against settled Australians; who have enjoyed peace and harmony though racially diverse, but language assimilated.

Michaelk, “A good example of seemingly a positive process is MWin auto-correcting, which automatically changed letters in messages to “fore-breads” for instance.”

An old English proverb, “It is the worst sort of craftsman who blames his tools”.

However, you then followed with a sentence comprising 74 words, irrationally arranged around one single comma (is a position for which it is redundant) and not one other punctuation character. Your lengthy statement remains, despite several attempts at translation, to be a complete nonsense.

Not that I am picky but you have successfully abused the Language of your adopted country to an almost criminal extent. You represent a good example of why people who want to aspire to Australian Citizenship should be required to communicate in English because, as evidenced by your posts, you surely cannot.

Celivia “What I would like to see though, is for one main language to become a compulsory subject at High Schools all over the world so that it will become everyone’s second language and everyone would be able to communicate.”

I have tried to find out what this is, with no success. However, reason and common sense leads me to suggest it is most likely English, in those countries where “English” is not the first language.

Darn it Celivia, all your high brow opinions come down to the likelihood that “Learning English” is the most reasonable assertion, not only for new Australians but anyone else around the globe.

As has been said before and affirmed by Pericles, Expectations that people are competent in the language of the country which they have been accepted for residency and citizenship is not illogical and it is not unfair. It is common sense and a similar requirement is a condition for citizenship expected internationally.

Philo, I think you are on to something, certainly we have seen Michaelk’s deranged ramblings include some racist invective of the lowest order.

Pericles,

You seem to be confused about “multiculturalism”. Australia had people of different cultures right from settlement - certainly by the time of the gold rush.

The self-destructing multiculturalism I refer to is the official policy of multiculturalism adopted by wacko politicians without reference to the people. I will never understand how anyone can think that is a good thing for any country or any people. We have a non-discriminatory immigration policy, and that should be enough, even for you.

Thankfully, you don’t make the rules, and I do not have to “forfeit” any of my rights as you think I should. Bit of a slip there, old son, which points up your intolerance.

Good to see Philo back with some sensible comments; and Col Rouge who, I believe is a successful migrant himself, and has always seemed capable of coping with the rigours of living in what 80% of the moaners and groaners who “grace” these pages seem to think is an awful racist, intolerant country.

For all the Australia-bashers, love it or leave still applies. I hope to see not just a toughening of the rules for immigrants, but a complete cessation of immigration for the forseeable future.

As a third generation Australian, I'm not sure that I 'love' the country of my accidental birth and citizenship. However, I often consider myself fortunate to have been born here and to live here.

One of the things I've always liked about Australia is its 'multicultural' society, and I've lived long enough and in enough different parts of the country (and overseas) to have witnessed the enrichment of our society by its cultural diversity. This has manifested in many ways, from the relatively trivial (e.g. cuisine) to more profound influences (e.g. labour and business, art, science, philosophy and religion).

One of the things that I've always disliked about Australia is the disproportionate and pervasive influence of racist and jingoistic sentiments that are held by a relative minority of the populace. Ever since my youth I've been repelled by obvious displays of xenophobia, and offended by the more subtle ways our institutions continue to sustain Australia's ugly racist underbelly.

That's why I, like most Australians, applauded the dismantling of the old 'White Australia Policy'. It's also why I am apalled that our current Federal government (and to a lesser extent, its opposition) seems to be hell-bent on reintroducing this embarrassing vestige of our colonial past.

It's not surprising that this despicably retrograde trend finds a welcome reception among that small proportion of knuckle-dragging xenophobes who persist in dragging ignorant public opinion to their level of dumb misanthropy. Fortunately, there's always been a healthy tradition in our society of giving short shrift to those who seek to entrench privilege for their own social class or cultural group.

If the xenophobic recidivists who like to infest this forum are unhappy that "80%" of other commentators disagree with their vile and self-serving racism, then I'm sure they can find other forums where they can vent their spleens.

I will speak from my own experience.

I was born in England of mixed Caucasian family and came to Australia over 44 years ago, because I wanted to live near the beach in a hot climate. I immediately felt at home with Aussies of all sorts of racial backgrounds and cultures. The only ones I didn't see eye-to-eye with were the wowsers. Funny thing about wowsers, generally ridiculed and lampooned, but politicians, local councillors and bureaucrats seem to be too scared to risk upsetting them.

My work was in sales and sales management. I really didn't care where my clients or their families originally came from. I seemed to have the knack of communicating with people from different backgrounds and my attitude to them was obviously accepted as a clear indication that I was not judgemental in this respect.

My social life revolved around Ballroom and Latin dancing [and still does]. In addition to going to ordinary ballrooms, my second wife and I either joined, or were regular visitors to various ethnic clubs, because we enjoyed their dances, both Ballroom/Latin and ethnic.

My second wife, originally from Cumbria, England, spoke fluent German and passable Italian, which was a great help to our social life. My schoolboy French was rarely of much help in Australia, but sometimes came in handy.

Kathy, who was an excellent dancer, took up Belly Dancing and became very proficient. She certainly had the Hollywood style looks for it. She taught this artform for the WA Education Dept and regularly performed at many functions, where the clientele would be predominantly Eastern Mediterranean/Middle Eastern. Another wonderful opportunity for us to broaden our social contacts.

cont

In regard to long term migrants not speaking fluent English, some friends originally from Sicily come to mind. Tony worked in the engineering trade with English speaking workmates and spoke good English. His wife Serena owned and managed a small, but prosperous catering business for home parties etc. I sometimes wondered if all her clients were Italian, because her English was not fluent at all. But I don't see this as a problem, why should it be?

I lost my wife some years ago. I couldn't see myself sitting at home, drinking too much and getting bored with TV, so I forced myself to go back to social dancing on my own. I was eventually fortunate to meet a delightful Japanese lady, who was a trained dancer.

Emiko came here 14 years ago as a business migrant, with her then husband and 3 children. She had a very restricted life, working in the family restaurant and otherwise being expected to stay at home. She had little opportunity and no encouragement to learn English. She did the sensible thing and divorced some years ago.

She wanted a social life, but, with very little English, decided to learn dancing, something which did not require much in the way of conversation. She was a natural as a dancer and has obtained some good qualifications and achieved in competition.

When we met, at a dance, she was happy with my suggestion that we go dancing together, but did not think we could become close, because of her limited English. However, this has never been a problem and our very active social life has improved her conversational English to a marked degree.

cont

She recently passed the Seniors' First Aid course, not easy for someone from a non-English speaking background, because of the technical terms involved, and has a work contract as a home carer. She now has no problem communicating with English speaking Australian clients etc.

But what would have happened to her if she had not had the initiative to learn ballroom dancing? Stuck in the Asian restaurant trade, as a cook. Not meeting people outside her own culture and learning virtually no English. Could we have justifiably blamed her for this?

I mention these situations, because I feel sure that there must be many migrants who, with the best will in the world, would find it extremely difficult to pass a mandatory English language test. But this, in itself, would not necessarily mean that they could not be good Australians. And their adult children, like those of Tony and Serena, and of Emiko, could be proficient in both English and their original languages, a definite advantage in some forms of business or employment.

I am often somewhat surprised at some of the strange pronunciations of common English words which are used by many of our TV presenters and newsreaders etc. I suppose we have to accept that all languages are in a state of flux, but some of these strange pronunciations tend to grate on me. Maybe if I had to take an oral English exam with one of these presumed English speaking experts, then I would be judged as not qualified to be an Australian citizen.

CJ Morgan,

The fact that 80% of the people who "infest" this forum are like you doesn't mean that 80% of the Australian population is like you and your red mates.

This is evidenced by the fact that we have had a government you clearly hate for the last decade, and you don't like the alternative much, either.

All of your pathetic name calling (knuckle-draggers etc)doesn't seem to have had much effect in the past, and from Rudd's pre-election utterances, it will not have much influence in the future

As a postscript, in a prior professional incarnation I had occasion to teach undergraduate university students about such topics as culture, society and linguistics. One technique I used to use, to illustrate the relative linguistic poverty of our culture, consisted of a series of questions posed to a tutorial group:

Q: What do you call someone who speaks several languages?
A: Multilingual (or polyglot)

Q: What do you call someone who speaks two languages?
A: Bilingual

Q: What do you call someone who speaks one language?
A: Aussie

As NESB immigrants join our society, they almost invariably acquire enough functional English to participate in the community (certainly by the second generation). In the process, they also inevitably change both our culture and our language - in my view for the better.

Confused, Leigh? Not me.

But you carefully avoided my question, which might have been because it was too complicated for you. Let me try to simplify it a little.

At what point in history did the Australian population become suddenly Australian, as opposed to a bunch of immigrants from other countries?

Was it 1901 and Federation? 1945 and the end of WWII? 1965, with the end of the general assisted passage scheme?

Perhaps it was from the day the first Europeans stepped onto Australian soil? That would support your "Australia had people of different cultures right from settlement" position, but would not explain your subsequent change of heart.

Or was it some other date - perhaps when "the official policy of multiculturalism adopted by wacko politicians without reference to the people" - whatever that might be - came into force?

But if it hasn't happened yet, then the concept of a "standard Australian" is still a work-in-progress.

Does that make it a little clearer for you?

Pick a date, and let's discuss it.

The fact that a citizenship test is so far removed from any concept of a white Australian policy, simply shows that the author claims are attention seeking. He should be ignored

Banjo,
under the early Australian immigration law, new migrants were made to undergo English dictation tests designed to fail specific ethnic groups.
It was a policy frankly about race.
Today’s policy seems to take off in the same direction, although it’s more obscured and not as frank but it’s obviously going to affect cultures than the ‘white’ cultures since most, if not all, Western (European) people nowadays are being taught English at High School as a compulsory subject.

Rex makes a good point and gives a wonderful example; immigrants need to be given a chance and the vast majority will learn English as they go.
I simply do not understand why there is a need for a citizenship test or language test. What is this going to do for Australia or its citizens? These tests are useless!

Col Rouge,
I agree: I do think that learning English is a good thing and should be encouraged.
My point is that it should not be a requirement for immigration or be compulsory.

The vast majority of immigrants will want to learn English and as Rex said, the second generation will all speak English.

We are making a big drama about a few immigrants ending up not being able to speak English. So what? Big deal!

Immigrants will need to have something to offer Australia e.g. their skills, knowledge, or trades.

“Darn it Celivia, all your high brow opinions come down to the likelihood that “Learning English” is the most reasonable assertion, not only for new Australians but anyone else around the globe.”
Continued below

Yes, CR, English is the 2nd most widely spread language spoken in the world and personally I’d like English to be that world language for no other reason than laziness. However, if there would be a democratic vote by all countries to chose a world language, Chinese (Mandarin) may well be chosen as that language as it is the most widely spoken language in the world. Or perhaps it would have to be an artificial language, who knows. I’m open to it all.
I won’t have a problem accepting a different language than English, since it would turn me, according to C.J.Morgan, from bilingual into multilingual ;)

Leigh,
Australia is a beautiful country and you should be proud to share it with others.
A cessation of immigration would mean the greying of Australia would become a bigger challenge for the Australian economy. Without it, will Australia be able to support the older members of our society?

Think of health services (including dental care :+)), aged care services and aged pensions. Without the support of a constant flow of new, young immigrants who would support older Australians?
Instead of cessation of immigration, new immigrants should be as young as possible.

Admit it, Leigh, Australians need immigrants. Without them, Australia would be even a weaker country than you think it already is.

Pericles,
please read my messages here and comprehend a significant difference between US test based on knowledge of elementary history and democracy-related issues but no verbal English test involved.
As known, even native speakers and not in the USA and Australia only sometimes hardly understand each other.

Anyway, the test in the States creates more jobs for bureaucrats than practical outcomes for both the State and seeking a naturalization.

Celivia,
today a parliamentary multicultural affairs secretary, Mr.A.Robb, that one if I remember properly, who at the time advocated special ethnic councils and some differentiation for Muslim education in Australia, once again expressed his opinion on a test as a unifying community deed because a growing number of Sudanese/African refugees should be tough Australian culture (as test and study is the same).

Even idiots in Australia know that non-Anglos are being refused “mainstream” employment but “family business” only. Taking Sudanese (a number grown from 2000 in 2000 to 23000 recently) is rather next stupid personal-benefit-over-obsessed deed of representing the fat cats clan’s interests only, while recently blabbing of “ethnic armed gangs of African descent”.

CJ Morgan,
trying to convince racists they are not racist is similarly to playing English with British-Australian feudals having no interest in even a “Honorable President”…

Col Rouge, I absolutely agree with you that my writing differs from Charles Dickens opuses. However, even requiring further polishing, it is much more better than one of a million English native Australian completely illiteral M A T E S, according to statistics. And I need no your comments on my English but your opinion on context of my anti-racist anti-colonial messages would be appreciated.

Surely, a British subject lending his property in Australia could hardly comment something but English.

Philo, Rex,
please, let you read my messages and if you still do not understand why testing accent is not less racist than providing dictations in any European language on mercy of examiner conducting Australian naturalization test at the time, I will further explain.

Celvia,
I suggest you read the discussion paper Australian Citizenship, available from the DIMA website, as you obviously have a misconception of the proposed citizenship test.

A white Australian policy,or any immigration policy, deals with how many and whom we allow into Australia. The citizenship test is for those persons with permanent resident visas who wish to become citizens. These people will have to be living here at least 4 years to be eligible. It will not matter if they are here many, many years before deciding they want to become citizens.

The idea of the longer residency requirement and the test is to stop those that use our present lax requirements to gain easy citizenship to get an Australian passport and be eligible for social welfare payments.

Like many others, I am concerned about the number of Australian citizens presently living in other countries where the cost of living is much lower and doing so on our welfare. For instance, I find it hard to believe that the huge number of 'Australians' in Lebanon, we had to assist to get out recently, were tourists. Many had to be assisted with housing here and those with dual nationality could have requested assistance from their 'other' nation.

The extra requirements should deter those that simply want to use and take advantage of us.

So far as I am concerned a cooling period for migrants to get assess to support net in Australia reflects their visa categories: one criterion is for being taken on humanitarian grounds and different rules apply to business/professional categories for instance, Banjo.

Moreover, from your message is unclear how these benefits can be payable overseas: some recipients of pensions (on medical conditions) could be paid some time while abroad and these payments depend on a term they had spent in Australia -twenty five years allow a whole volume of payment being transferred overseas and a fraction, in ratio, in other cases. And age pensions are age pensions: clear, if a dual national claimed overseas a local national benefit, it does not affect Australian Medicare at all – maybe, England is exception, but you did mention a different place.

And in Australia, being additionally paid pension/compensation from overseas affects local benefits recipients differently.

I've read a document you mention and do suggest that a term to start naturalization process is up to state authorities. Either four or ten years are mere discretion of considering naturalization procedures where a democratic notion of each particular country is the most.

As mentioned somewhere on these pages already, “character grounds” that is of applicant info collected from and by different sources is the most important pattern for granting a citizenship.

Therefore, all these citizenship tests are merely both financial benefits FOR and simply artificial attempts to shift process outcomes FROM bureaucracy towards an applicant as last ten years occurred explicitly on all walks of civic life in Australia.

PERICLES and yes I read that ....but its ok.

Integrate or.... don't come- is a very good migration policy.

I'll be promoting this as hard and wide as I can.

RACE ?
English is spoken by all countries of the British Empire and that includes MANY none white races.

ENGLISH ? well.. a certain so-called holy book says all English people are CURSED by God, are DELUDED and are bereft of truth. It also says they are NOT to be made friends with. (assuming 'English' people are at least nominal Christians or Jews)

Clearly, 'English' people like Pericles are a special class of sub humans, if the above holy book is to be believed. So, Pericles is most welcome to situate himself among such people, Him being a minority of course, and he can wallow in his multi-culturalism to his hearts content.

But the rest of us have stronger feelings about that.
"Integrate...or stay away"

Integrate means we will all benefit from the rich cultural tapestry which such integrating migrants bring, as we accept the good and reject the bad. But INTEGRATE it must be.

This dovetails nicely into my own vision of a new 'Australian' who will culturally and racially be a hybrid of all the newer cultures which have come, but will remain predominantly English and caucasian.
(by virtue of numbers)

INTEGRATION= Acceptance of defense responsibilities, Acceptance of cultural practices, willingness to intermarry across cultural and racial lines.

That is NOT a 'white' Australia policy

For those that make claim that the new citizenship test is racist on language grounds and favours white skinned people; PLEASE IDENTIFY WHICH DARK RACES ARE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST, so we can evaluate such a claim.

MichaelK “it is much more better than one of a million English native Australian completely illiteral M A T E S”

Only in your view. As far as the readability of your posts, by third parties, you are an illiterate.

Regarding “And I need no your comments on my English but your opinion on context of my anti-racist anti-colonial messages would be appreciated.”

Happy to oblige:

Your post on the “Australian citizenship: removing the welcome mat?” thread

Posted by you, Saturday, 23 December 2006 8:16:30 AM

“slaves to their Anglo-England-crown”
“Anglo-xenophobic Britaine-not-call-today-empire-in-general”
“monarcho-Anglo-racism!”

My response at the time

”This is the pitiful ranting of the bigot.”

You are a racist bigot of the worst order. You hide behind an inferiority complex which you pretend should shield you from criticism. I said to you in response to your vile posts

“I do not believe anyone using English, even as a second language, could have contrived to acquire so many of the words and none of the syntax.

I think you are either so pig ignorant that passing an English test for citizenship would see you fail repeatedly or you are a provocateur, deliberately corrupting English to allow you to abuse it, to satisfy your own perversions.

From reading your deranged and meaningless diatribe it is clear that you are a racist.”

Everything you have written here confirms my conclusion.

Your closing statement above “Surely, a British subject lending his property in Australia could hardly comment something but English.”

Is consistent with your other posts, in-so-much as it is complete nonsense, the work of an illiterate.

Oh and on a lighter note, I am with Rex, I think proficiency in ballroom dancing should be part of the citizenship qualification too, although not sure about the “latin” styles.

MichaelK,
Like all your other posts, the one refering to what I wrote is unreadable.

I can only suggest that you give some thought to what you want to say before writing.

At present, I will not spend time trying to decipher your posts.

C.J.MORGAN said he dislikes "racist and jingoistic sentiments" about Australia.

I could not agree more. There is nothing so dangerous as those things.

UNfortunately, when a country as young as ours, which does not have a centuries old solid tradition of cultural heritage, the most likely reaction to any sense of threat will be just that.. "jingoistic and racist".

What are the possible solutions ?

1/ Control the source and nature of the perceived threat.
2/ Educate the community and assure them that sound policy is being followed.

Howard caught the mood on point 1 by saying "We...will determine who comes to this country and under what circumstances they come"

It could not be better put. But SAYing some thing and DOing it, are not the same. As long as the Quran describes Christians and Jews as CURSED by Allah (9:30) unsuitable as friends, and advises the adherants to follow the examaple of a megalomanical sex hungry child molester/torturer/beheader who legimitized for all time the use of captive slave girls for sexual use, (23:5-6) and I still see Muslims allowed to migrate to Australia, I will not believe Mr Howard is 'DO'ing what he was SAYing.

Point 2 is still lacking.

There is a 3rd point.. INCULCATION OF CULTURE and CIVICS and developing a sense of nationhood. Not 'we are da best' jingoism, or blind nationalism, but.. Nationhood in the best sense of the word.

But while we resort to digging up and selling stuff, rather than proactively developing a nation in 5 yr plans as Malaysia did, and allowing Union bullies and Corporate Obscenity to reign....there is little chance the rest of us will do much beside whining in racist and jingoistic ways.

ReggedtyAnnie...

ALL ethnic associations are RACIST by nature and that includes British ones. I just returned from holiday and drove past this large building in Sale or Bairnsdale saying 'ITALIAN AUSTRALIAN CLUB'

I sometimes go past a Church in Box Hill south "CHINESE evangelical Church" and I'm picking on my own in that case because I am Christian.
But Paul in Galatians says "In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek"... he also could have said "There is neither CHINESE nor Caucasian" because that is his clear meaning.

True Australian-ness does not SEE ethnicity, it just sees Australians.
I don't have a problem with saturday morning language schools as long as they are intended to just facilitate communication between new offspring and older non English speaking relatives and simply learn a language but not if it is aimed at perpetuation an alien Culture in a racist manner, to that prevailing in Australia.. There is always an advantage to having a second or 3rd language but please lets not make it a 'because we are more special' kind of thing.

You picking up on the Irish/English history is quite valid, and I believe is supportive of my contention to just see 'Australians'.

Pericles said:
[exactly when did the country stop being an outpost of its Anglo-Irish heritage - the old country, as Leigh describes it - and become the Australia of his imagination?]

It happened in the 2nd stanza of 'My Country' by Dorothea McKellar.
It happened in the hearts and minds of Australians who actually FEEL it, and it had developed into something quite solid by the beginning of WW2.

That feeling, sense of self, would be tragically misguided if Irish and English background Aussies cannot look beyond history and cling to a basic cultural one-ness that they share.
It could only be done if we view the English/Irish population aspect as an accident of history, rather than the perpetuation of former injustices here.
We are morally obliged NOT to perpetuate either the reality OR the emotion of past cruelties and to recognize ALL have sinned.

Pericles,

I cannot give you an exact date offhand, but very early in the piece. I decline to re-read John Hirst’s “Sense and Nonsense in Australian History” just to educate you. Get hold of a copy and read it for yourself. I don’t have to explain what I know for a fact to you or anyone else. Do something for yourself, or continue to wallow in your ignorance. It’s a matter of complete indifference to me

<<I sometimes go past a Church in Box Hill south "CHINESE evangelical Church" and I'm picking on my own in that case because I am Christian.
But Paul in Galatians says "In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek"... he also could have said "There is neither CHINESE nor Caucasian" because that is his clear meaning.

I don't have a problem with saturday morning language schools as long as they are intended to just facilitate communication between new offspring and older non English speaking relatives and simply learn a language but not if it is aimed at perpetuation an alien Culture in a racist manner, to that prevailing in Australia.. There is always an advantage to having a second or 3rd language but please lets not make it a 'because we are more special' kind of thing.>>

Hi Boaz-David,

I know you are a Christian and so am I, I have seen many of your posts on this site and others. I usually just read and don't post.

I agree with Paul's statement that you quoted and for me in the Body of Christ, I feel that way, all Christians no matter what racial background are my brothers and sisters in Christ. That is also why I have no problem with immigrants who are Christians no matter what country they are from coming here.

As for the Muslim immigrants, I have heard church leaders including Jews for Jesus say that because it is virtually impossible to get Christian missionaries into Muslim countries now, maybe God is sending the Muslims to us to bring them to Christ. This idea makes sense to me.

Continued next post.

Continuation from previous post.

As for the "Community Language Schools" as they are called now at least in Sydney, they are about learning languages both for children to learn their background language and they are also used by students who want to learn a language that is not offered at their school. A lot of students who study a (non-English) language for the HSC has done the study at a Community Language School.

<<True Australian-ness does not SEE ethnicity, it just sees Australians.>> That's the way it should be, but often isn't. People see Chinese, Africans, Arabs or Pacific Islanders etc when they look at people who are not British or Northern Europeans. That's why ignorant people like to play the "Spot the Aussie" games on public transport or shopping centres and think only those look Anglo-Saxon-Celtic are real Aussies, even if the Chinese person they are looking at has an Australian background going back to gold-rush days and Anglo-Saxon-Celtic person next to them has only been here for a week

'Australian values'was a subject never debated,never doubted,never needing explanation until the ugly Multiculture experiment arose.
First there was the CRINGE where by everything Australian was critisized and degraded, that was the softener to bring about the loss of nationhood that we had.
Then we had,by virtue of the ALP, the political correctness that strangled free speech and halted free expression.
Now we are paying ,and will pay, for the terrible effects of importing tribal people for whom Australian values hold no meaning whatever.
Why?

Mikijo's "tribal people" is the key to any discussion on immigration. Multiculturalist-driven ideology has ensured that Australia will become a land of tribes, none connecting with others.

All immigration should have been stopped long ago. We are already double our sustainable population. We did need immigrants in the past, but not the sort we have ended up with.

We are governed by idiots who see no further than the next election.

Dear Raggedty heartwarming to hear that you are closely related to me.. in fact my sister :)
If you read most of my posts you must shudder at times, my goodness, I come out with some rather controversial stuff, such as my post on the Never Again thread. But don't worry, I still have very enjoyable quiet times :) My goal is as much to stir people to think as anything else.

Just on your thought about bringing Muslims here as an opportunity to evangelise them. To a degree true. But God has ways that better fit into the category "My ways are not your ways" etc.. I recall chatting with a Saudi Doctor who had left Islam (he was still in Saudi Arabia) partly as a result of a dream in which he encountered the risen Lord Jesus, who pointed him away from Islam. I gave him some useful links to Bible Gateway etc and offered my email, but didn't hear further.

Muslims are unfortunately content to regard Jesus as 'a prophet' and unless this is challenged its difficult to progress further. To challenge that, leads to 'what source' do they have for this idea, and that leads to 'Mohammed' which leads to "Is he from God or not" which, depending on who we are speaking with, leads to a knife in the belly, a punch on the nose, a 'you have your religion me mine' attitude or 'why do you say such lies' or a rationalization of some inhuman conduct on his part by them. Pauls view is Galatians 1:9

I'm concerned to evangelise Muslims too, but please don't judge that part of me by my 'social concern' posts here, because I operate on that level as well as the purely evangelistic.
I do see grave social dangers in having large numbers of Muslims here (as opposed to small numbers) and my time at the committal hearing of the 13 suspects in Melbourne was an eyeopener of dramatic proportions.

Hang in and keep contributing :) Heb 10:22-25

One of the more excruciating and nauseous arguments always involves the Hypothetical Indigenous people, as if they calved out Australia from stone.

Give up the romanticism of Primitivism, equal to and meaning to counter the ridicules argument; as if it be for some reason, Australia Today was not as it is, and were still running around banging each other over the head in some primitive tribal war, how many immigrants do you propose would select to live here?
That is the basic crux of the typical lobotomized mantra and anti Anglo message espoused. Who would?
Absolutely No one.
And can I see a whole lot of Idiots Immigrating to Africa; NO, I wonder why?
And there would be some Rubber room worthy Useless Idiot handing out money to see who could destroy civilization first. I could write a bloody book on it.
So stop Insulting Aboriginals of this century, and start thinking about cleaning up the ridicules mess and fractures the Leftist- Proletariat / Fascists Morons have created.
If you don’t like it then Peeee Off to Nth Korea.
If I could get my way, that’s where three quarters of our Politicians and Bureaucrats would be exiled to, stamped never to return. Closely followed by a numerous amount of their apparatchiks and Lobotomized morons.

And there, I just solved Australia’s Economic problems; just by removed the parasites from the Host.

I wish, and it does feel good being a dreamer.

All,Really! LOL, you gotta wonder what's wrong with u blokes, its

really sad how you think of the world around you.

OLO is obviously a haven for lonely no friends nigels.

You hurt my feeling Ranier you – you- you- nasty person.
How about you buy me a beer then ?
It does get lonely in the real world- I’m not permitted to enter the gates of Utopia. Reality has this affliction with me Ranier, It is something I can’t explain!
But with Reality ,it eventually catches up: It hits real hard.
It is something you need to embrace.

A Pot of Light beer thank.

To Rainier,

First of all, this forum provides the opportunity to exchange ideas, visions and opinions from people all around Australia. Our nation is based on ideas and passion! And I am glad to see that one single post from this writer could draw out so many praises and criticisms, which in fact are all opinions. I deeply appreciate you all for your comments.

This reader suggests all of you to read the Australian Citizenship Discussion Paper available from the DIMA website and the speech addressed to the FECCA Conference by Andrew Robb. Who determines what an adequate knowledge of Australia is? Who can define Australia’s culture? With regards to the citizenship test, this writer would like to see new citizens attend free and compulsory courses on Australia that offer a basic insight into the country, and that are not subject to pass or fail tests.

This country has given many individuals a second chance, there are no restrictions, no barriers, if you are committed to that path, and this country provides all the utilities and opportunities to do so. And I will be damned to have an English citizenship test or a society with a 19th century mind frame destroy the very foundations of multiculturalism, which has made our nation what it is today, a nation that opens doors and provides people from all backgrounds to embrace life and allowing them to reach their lifelong potential and dreams.

All, I'm really glad you have come to terms with yourself. Its the first step to self realisation and true enlightenment. Sorry, but I don't drink alcohol. How about a cup of tea? Earl Grey? English Breakfast? White with two?

Yung Yong, my sentiments exactly. When one considers the linguistic and cultural diversity of Indigenous people before invasion (around 300 different languages) multiculturalism here in this land is much older than many realize or care to acknowledge.

Multicultural has a history and many here want to deny this history ever existed, to deny that multicultualism emergence as a direct response to the evils of mono-culturalist/ethno nationalist thinking such as that which Hitler espoused.

I'd rather be in the company of someone who spoke very little english but who appreciated and understood diversity than someone who speaks excellent english with a narrow view of the world around us.

Your explicit rudeness and nicknaming me in your messages, Col Rouge, allow a simple response: you are racist English pig and I hope your co-mates, Anglo-pigs “not understanding “ my posts will not complain too, as they are unable already to understand my writing, according to their stupid redneck racist Anglo-blabbing.

Your place is near Saddam Hussein and others of Nuremberg International WWII Marshal Court accused, which is recently proven in South Africa and Zimbabwe.

No citizenship test will help you and your Englo-bandit retirees sucking Australian resources while barking as wild dogs on robbed by you non-Anglos worldwide and in this colony definitely to share this fate.

And those who do not understand non-your accent could follow advice provided to your neo-nazi PM: take a suit case and off to England.

Dear Yung

"Who" determines what an adequate knowledge of Australia is?

Now this is a crucial question and cannot be diminished or underestimated because in reality it goes to the very heart of this whole debate.

It also touches on the current power,cultural and racial/ethnic relationship of the various groups within our community. Which of course leads us back to our history post white settlement.
In all societies, those who make the rules, not just the essential nature of a rule, but its extent and influence, are those with the power. Now I can imagine dear Ranier suddenly becoming focused here and mouthing the words "Yeah right.. 'white' structural racism" or something similar, and to a degree he would be totally correct.

This being a correct or accurate assessment of the situation does nothing to reduce its reality. What can change is the 'racist' element, and this can be transformed into a more equitable and just flavor to that power status quo.

But regarding the 'who' of your questions, it is clearly those with the historical and cultural momentum and inevitably the power. He who holds the reins, guides the horse.

I sense that most people who criticize such a situation, do so from a standpoint of jealousy (why should THEY run the show rather than 'us') or ethno/cultural supremacism.

There are also the 'ideological' supremacists, such as Marxists who may comprise a number of ethnicities. (but once they have power, you just watch the 'blood/genes is/are thicker than ideas' syndrome roll on)

There are also the 'economic' supremacists, such as the Labor/Coalition struggle.

Having probably raised more questions than I have answered, let me simply conclude with that one point, those who have the power, will make the rules about how we structure any citizenship test. Such things are not etched in stone, and in the on-going power struggle, I'm sure modifications will occur if there is a change_in_government.

FINAL POINT. I won't miss an opportunity to rant against the concept of the UN ever_ever_EVER telling us how to shape our immmigration policy. NEVER !

Yung Yong,
Glad to see you are reading the posts. I still think you are trying to relate citizenshi test to white Aust policy simply to attraact attention, and now you have brought up multiculturalism to further attract comment.

I contend that we are multi-racial and not multicultural and I have no objection to that. We have our own unique basic culture and migrants have to adapt to that. I defy anyone to define any nations culture, here on OLO, and do a credible job of it.

I welcome people from all backgrounds.
I do not expect much of migrants. Merely that they discard any hatreds their culture carries, live to our laws and some may have to alter their attitude to females. Other than this their culinary habits, religion and so on are their business. Oh, I consider those that do not allow inter-marriage to be racist.

There may not be that many who abuse our citizenship, but we cannot allow it to go on. If the proposed citizenship provisions do not stop any abuse then it will have to be looked at again. Its a sad case that a few make it harder for the many.

If we cut the funds for multiculturalism, that money could be used for free English classes in evenings or Saturday mornings. Much more productive.

How AUSTRALIAN!

Of course, creating jobs for native speakers of whom all qualifications are some speaking of native English might be used to please electorate’s request for employment in a home country is much more productive than developing Australia’s industries outside sex and gambling, by deploying non-UK-biologically-linked professionals who are anyway, according to redneck posts of Banjo & Co, in advance undesirable elements in this so-“humanly-advanced” society.

Really, a good idea is participating in this Australian NATIONAL Forum as it broadened a real understanding of "Aussie" mean stupidity, xenophobia and racism substantially.

Who is this MichaelK character? Is it really possible to write English that badly?

He hates us. It's a mystery to me why such creeps ever came here in the first place, let alone why they stay. Easy to get the dole, probably.

Go away and stay away you awful creature!

Thanks Banjo- I read the discussion paper.

I can’t help but finding it quite offensive that it is assumed by the government that immigrants would be less loyal to Australia than Australian citizens are.

The paper looks like a panic attack on paper. I’m not talking about racism; I think it’s the panicky paranoia about terrorism that made this paper appear.
If Howard wouldn’t have supported war crimes in the Middle East, Australia would not have to deal with a higher risk of terrorism in the first place.

Trying to keep terrorists out by having new immigrants sign up to Australian values is ineffective.
Any would-be terrorists are obviously going to lie about committing to the Australian values, unless terrorists do not lie.

Above all, Australian values are just general values - why does Australian govt pretend they own those values and call them Australian values?

I believe that learning English and learning basics about Australia for new immigrants is a positive thing and should be strongly encouraged (but the test should not be demanded).
But were those courses not already available to immigrants anyway?

Read what is said in the foreword of this discussion paper:
“Australia has been hugely successful at integrating millions of people with diverse backgrounds from over 200 countries, because, in the main, we have embraced and drawn from the wealth of that diversity, and we are all the richer for it.”

I agree, Australia has been successful! My question is: Why fix it if it isn’t broken?

Leigh,
MichealK may hve been born here, who knows? What amazes me is that he has a good vocabuary but seems unable to put it together to make a comprehendable sentence. Maybe English tutors have a name for it, but its the first I have come across.

He is trying though. I recognized such words as Bango, redneck, xenophobic, stupid and racist. Put together,I assume is not complementry.

Its often the case that multiculturalists fall back on personal racist slurs when confronted with lodical opposite argument. They are frustrated because their ideology has failed.

They need to take off their blinkers and rose coloured glasses and see the real world.

oh , I get it, multiculturalists are against racism and those against multiculturalism support racism in all its manifestations.

To anti multiculturalists here - Why not just get straight to the point and argue for the virtues of practicing racism instead of attacking those who are against racism. Go on, be brave for once, and stop hiding behind diagonal attacks at multiculturalists.

And what the hell is a "lodical opposite argument"?

I am wondering, Celvia, why your message distinguishing a highly appreciated knowledge of a basic Australian data with a mere racism-motivated compulsory test in English -verbal or any other, was met more friendly, than the same I'd wrote of "test and study".

To me, it is a next example of discriminatory approach to disputants in this particular case, where not WHAT was written but WHO had said is the most.

Surely, you are not acquainted with an already existing system of annihilating intelligence of newcomers upon English courses and so-called “Job Networks trainings”, not speaking of more…

This lack of reality is professionally used by paid for keeping non-Anglo-Saxes/Celts out of a work market where “English” has been presented as an issue for elementary segregation and traditional for UK colonies and metropoly herself apartheid well existing under “multicultural” covers.

Although linguistic skills are very much appreciated, they never ever substitute special knowledge, and a very notion, perfectly hidden from Mr. Australian Average, is a mere racist suggestion that LANGUAGE rather than SURROUNDING grounds mentality.

By a way, my posts have been checked by a computer used as mentioned already on these pages, to publishing writings both in this forum and in scientific and publicist sources worldwide, in Anglo-sphere inclusively, - just info for those who at the time had omitted this message, busy with exercising their HIGHER RACE usual burden of superiority towards non-“West-End” educated.

Bye for now.

A Happy New Year to comprehending a real world where Republic of England will start reforming her incomprehensible even for native speakers nearly-expired language not late than in 2008.

Yung Yong “First of all, this forum provides the opportunity to exchange ideas, visions and opinions from people all around Australia. Our nation is based on ideas and passion!”

Have you a contract with me to write your posts?

You sound so much like me, Spooky.

That said, whilst supporting the same expectations of individualism, my view on mandatory competence in English to qualify for citizenship in Australia is diametrically opposed to yours.

Anyone who migrated here with “ideas and passion”, “visions” and “opinions” would surely, see the reason for us all to communicate with a common language, rather than risk social fragmentation into a bunch of ethnically contained tribes desperately clinging to the traditions of a previous culture, at the expense of their own development.

Such issues mirror the problems of the Quebecois, hanging on to a 200 years old version of French, a version which has failed to develop or keep pace with the European version of French and seriously fracturing the political stability of Canada

Rainier “the evils of mono-culturalist/ethno nationalist thinking such as that which Hitler espoused.”

Not only Hitler. Anyone who supported the ideals of Esperanto would carry that label.

Anyone who thought their might be merit in being able to communicate with their next door neighbours, rather than treating them as as foreign as their language would also carry that label.

Michaelk “Your explicit rudeness and nicknaming”

“Explicit” good, you are at last learning to understand what I am writing about you, more than I can say for most of your posts

“rudeness” anyone who expresses their bigotry by perverting the English language falls below the line to which rudeness could be deployed.

“Nicknaming” I have referred to you solely as “Michaelk” and by no other acronym.

That you might be upset by what I write is understandable.

I consider you have no redeeming qualities to counter what is conveyed in your posts, that is as one of the most bigoted and offensive abusers of written English it has been my displeasure to encounter.

Banjo, conveys a politer version of my view

Leigh “Who is this MichaelK character? Is it really possible to write English that badly?”

Both reasonable questions to ask Michaelk. Although, given he can only reply here in writing, I am not sure the legibility or grammatical appropriateness of any response you might get.

For instance he wrote “Really, a good idea is participating in this Australian NATIONAL Forum as it broadened a real understanding of "Aussie" mean stupidity, xenophobia and racism substantially.”

I think he is might be saying we are all “stupid, xenophobic racists”.

“Substantially” is a little confusing, it might mean following an overindulgence of English Mince Pie and Christmas Pud, we have all increased our girth (or maybe “girt”, according to the national anthem). I know I am more substantial than before Christams, oh diets await.

Anyway, you read into it whatever you will, although I guess he does prove that “Yes”, "it is possible to write English that badly", although to communicate in it is another matter.

Michaelk, please do not bother to respond to this post, I am writing about you, not to you.

While I agree with the idea of an immigration test because there are a lot of immigrants who have no respect for Australian culture or history, I'm not so sure it will be effective in weeding out those immigrants. In fact I'm certain that many immigrants here now would fail the test.

I'd be interested to know how much Australian History the average born here Australian knows. I am a history buff, Australian, European and Christian history are my chief interests.

I know lots about Australian history because I wanted to learn about my adopted country.

I see migrants like adopted children, they love their adopted parents/country but they also have a pull towards birth parents/country. It is a normal human impulse to want to know your roots and have a love for them as well as you adopted family/country who raised you.

Again, thank you for the generous comments from you all at OLO! To Steel, you claimed that most migrants would fail this test. Well, I can assure you that most Australians, no matter what ethnic background they are from, wouldn't be able to tell me when Federation was founded or who was our longest elected PM. Any of these questions of Australia's history, culture and values would prove difficult to any new bred Australian of the 21st Century.

I completely agree, most migrants do share a sense of bonding with their ancestral hertiage. This is what makes our country strong, having citizens understanding a number of cultures and languages, having the best of both worlds puts Australia ahead of the globe!

Col,

Perhaps MichaelK is an ABC reporter.

Citizenship tests, or.. Visa conditions should also consider LOYALTY to our allies and our country.

USA
"Over a thousand Somali Muslims demonstrated in Minneapolis yesterday in favor of the Dark Ages Islamist regime in Somalia; the Star Tribune report has a typically ridiculous headline: Area Somalis want peace for homeland."

Any demonstration in favor of our ENEMIES (which the Islamic Courts are) should be dealt with on the basis of TREACHERY and also, under our laws, I think they could be arrested. (Giving comfort to enemies)?

The USA government has supported the Ethiopian intervention, and understandably so. So, to side with the enemies is to be a traitor.

Multi-culturalism is death, so it should be killed off quickly.
Citizenship tests are not about a 'white' Australia, they are about a harmonious and surviving Australia.

Our greatest enemy is our division, our scattered thoughts about who we are, our lack of cohesive social and national identity.

It is tragic that post modernism has infected our youth like an educational Golden Staf on steroids.
Equally tragic is the lack of philosophical underpinning which can give people the passion to act in defense of their culture and homeland.

I can point to 'Christ' as a unifying force, but, to be true and legitimate in God's eyes, such a committment must be on the level of the individual heart. I suppose government can indeed provide a framework which is more condusive and less antagonistic, but this is also treading on dangerous ground. But to 'not' take the first step, means no journey at all, no matter how long or short. No steps takes us nowhere. It is easier to steer a moving object that motivate a stationary one.

BOZY declared- Multi-culturalism is death, so it should be killed off quickly.

Yeah ok, so how do you do this?

Do we rescind all anti-discrimination policies (which also protect Christians), send all non white people back to their country (even the one's born here generations ago before), do some ethnic cleansing?

Multiculturalism, in what ever form demographically is the reality of the times.

What we are all trying to come to terms with is what kind of MC should we adopt?

For example should we have

• Left- Liberal MC which emphasizes cultural differences and suggests the stress on the equality of 'races' smothers those important cultural differences that are responsible for different behaviours, values, attitudes.

• 2. Liberal MC which argues that a natural equality exists amongst all but defines MC through citizenship and is based on ideas of sameness only through an intellectualism, not policy or law.

• 3. Conservative MC (South Africa in apartheid times) where blacks and yellows and 'Others' slaves, entertainers, servants, where the majority are self congratulatory buffoons celebrating their version of 'multiculturalism'. (and where DB can preach and proselytise) .

As previously stated MC is here to stay as demographic and global condition of human movement.

There's no holding back the tide, and making social policies that keep us all afloat will be sustainable. And number 3 above is simply impossible to recreate anywhere - so stop dreaming.

Celivia,
What i find offensive is that some people use our present easy citizenship provisions to simply gain advantage for themselves and are not interested in Australia. They live here for the required 2 years and as citizens they are able to get social welfare, then leave and continue to get welfare at our expense. If you doubt this takes place, in todays "Oz" they say 900 people were caught,in NSW alone, last year, trying to get others here on permanent visas with fake marriages. Not everyone is as honest as we would like

I do not know how you think that the new citizenship test has anything to do with terrorism as it it not mentioned anywhere. It is designed to help deter those that simply want to take advantage of us.

Yes we have allowed 6.5 million immigrants here since WW11 and most have settled in well. There are some exceptions however. We have a problem with Lebanese Muslim males with anti-social behaviour and their attitude to females and the marriage scam thing as noted above seems mainly confined to Asians as is the girls brought here as sex slaves. The new citizenship provissions do not address immigration matters.

Rainier,
Your post of yesterday is an excellant example of a multiculturalist using the race card.

Don't count on MC being arround for much longer. Rudd has now changed to integration policy and the Libs will follow shortly. Even the Poms have woken up to how damaging MC is and Blair has dumped it.

Leigh and Col Rouge,
Conclusion re MichaelH. His posts are deliberate. It suits his infantile humour. Another good education wasted on an idiot. Ignor him.

That multiculturism has failed is obvious.
There are just too many migrants who neither recognise it or are only
interested in being in their own mono-culture. The mono-culture nature
of the prison population reinforces that impression.
In parts of Sydney monoculturism is now starting into its third generation.

We should immeadiatly revert to European immigration only.
However with water shortages being with us for the indefinate future
we may need to stop all immigration.

Col Rouge-
Your "mandatory competence in English to qualify for citizenship in Australia"-how does it apply to an already mentioned here million of completely illiteral locally born and grown up Anglos AND on other hand, Australian-born offspring of the "non-qualified in English" by local racists from Anglo-background?

You exemplify perfectly a notion of a stupid, xenophobic racist in this forum definitely. Thank you for understanding this clear explanation.

RaggedtyAnnie-
"The average born here Australian knows" of local history as much as of any other subject.
They are not prepared even to pass elementary tests passed by newcomers while intellectual level of new residents had been estimated with "English proficiency tests" already using an acquaintance with mere English history and London's streets as a very precondition to have tests passed.

Yung Yong -
Bravo, you've summarized what I start this message with already.

To my understanding, Howard government rightfully reflects his electorate's need on unstoppable personal financial gain by producing nothing but benefiting from discrimination and exploitation on biological grounds in time when Europeans know much of English xenophobic racist reality, which resulted in a diminishing influx of European migrants to a hopeless place being of instant desperate need for newcomers. And an international pressure compliments this urge for a chip labor and simply numbers of "being served", by acceptance of people from Africa and Muslim world.

Michaelk “You exemplify perfectly a notion of a stupid, xenophobic racist in this forum definitely. Thank you for understanding this clear explanation.”

There is nothing to thank me for,
You have made no explanation.

I have no need to rely on your assessment to my competency or stupidity. I will rely on other posters to decide both my and your levels of intellectual competency and if that is anything like our relative competence in English, you are dead in the water.

Use all the words you want, hurl abuse at me and suggest I am a xenophobe. As for racist, yours are the words of the racist, as evidenced by your continual references to “Anglos”, not that it matters, if your use of grammar is anything to go by, you have not a clue what these words mean anyway.

Example “Yung Yong - Bravo, you've summarized what I start this message with already.”

Yung Yong started the thread, not you. Yung Yong expressed an opinion regarding compulsory English Tests for Citizenship which we have been debating.

Re Banjo “Conclusion re Michaelk. His posts are deliberate. It suits his infantile humour. Another good education wasted on an idiot.”

Must agree there Banjo.

Banjo, If you find it uncomfortable that I should name your racisms so spectacularly its not my problem, its yours.

I think an English test is essential part of anyone becoming Australian I mean if people are serious about moving hear and wanting to contribute to this country it’s quite obvious that they need to be able to speak English. Any argument against this is absurd and socially indefensible.

How can you ever be part of nation and know what is going on if you cant communicate with the locals read local papers and watch local news? But then again most immigrants who come to this country are not hear to contribute to this great nation and could not give 2 two hoots about Australia or Australians so understandably they are all up in arms about real aussie making it tougher for their mates to get on to easy street….. I mean into Australia.

The English test has been way over due and if people are serious about being Australian they would know English before they come hear

Dear Ranier... I've ordered the home care nurse to attend to your obviously failing memory and tunnel vision :) sorry, don't mean to sound unkind there but where in this wide world do you persistently, stubbornly and with monotonous regularity keep on regurgitating this 'white apartied' type of monoculturalism that you think I am on about ?
I mean..seriously, I'm beginning to doubt my communication skills.
I've done the right thing..GOT THEIR ATTENTION, with my ONE NATION,ONE RACE, ONE CULTURE piece where I clearly and systematically outlined my vision of a blended Australia of tomorrow.
I am NOT repeat NOT about either making everyone white NOR am I about marginalizing everyone who is not white. I am.. repeat.. AM about dropping racist predjudices and mixing ourselves up, intermarrying, creating a new blended aussie.

Number 2 was closest from your rather limited list. But the point I'm harping on, is that we should NOT be funding anything which emphasizes DIFFerence, rather, we should be funding any measure which creates UNITY and blending.
Again..I repeat that the only BARRIER to such an approach is an entrenched racism which feels it is superior to other less worthy cultures/races.
I would not mind if my 18 yr old son married your 18 yr old daughter as long as they loved each other.

So, in conclusion, I guess that makes the Left/MultiCultists the true racists and me the non racist.. mr clean if you like :)

So, there, have a chew on that for a while... again.
cheers mate.

Bazz...spot on mate. (ditto for most others)

Banjo, I totally agree with you that this ‘milking’ of Australia should be stopped. And it is true that not everyone is honest. But what I believe is, that not only immigrants commit fraud or are corrupt and that it is discriminatory to especially select and focus on one group as scapegoats: the immigrants.

If the Australian government is inadequate in taking control of fraud means that it should prioratise improving its efficiency in this area.
When individuals commit fraud, the whole group of immigrants is not to blame and should not have to bear the consequences.
There’s crime and fraud and corruption all around us throughout Australia. Think of Farm crime frauds, banking sector frauds, fraud in the real estate sector/property developers, scammers, con-artists, bribers, and corruption in the (local) government. All these are individually dealt with. So should it be with immigrants- we cannot say, ‘because a minority of immigrants have committed crimes we need to deal with the whole group- let them sit a test’, if this is not also done with other groups in society.
That’s why it bothers me.

Knowledge of Australian history, Australian values, or a test in English are hardly going to stop immoral people commit fraud. Tests are not a cure against immorality or dishonesty.

Some immigrants do not integrate?
Neither do some Australians.

Think of cults or sects like The Exclusive Brethren (EB) and Hill song.
The exclusive Brethren do not integrate any more, and I dare say, even less, than the minority of immigrants that Howard criticised for not integrating.

Mixing with other Australians:
They are forbidden to socialise with people outside the EB clan. They may only do business with them, but may have no contact outside business purposes.

Equal rights for women:
And what do EB think about women? They have dress-codes for women, and they do not allow women to work outside the family home once married.
So much for equal rights for this great Australian value.

continued:

EB have many rules and regulations that are not in line with Australian values.
Every Australian kid should have the right of education? Not so- the EB forbids their children to take part in tertiary education.
EB members may not vote, watch TV, read newspapers, use the internet- no contact at all with the outside world or be excommunicated.

I have not once heard Howard criticising these sects (in fact, he funds them AND their EB schools which offer kids no computer skills) but when it comes to a small minority of migrants that do not integrate, he’s quick to criticise.

Boaz,
there already exists one race: the human race.

"The values of freedom, democracy and the rule of law are clearly universal values."
Posted by Yung Yong, Sunday, 24 December 2006 11:44:00 PM

This phrase 'the Rule of Law' has had much currency lately and I am suspicious of it. Who makes the laws? Why the WASPS of course. So why would the peasants value the rules made for them by their overlords? Well they wouldnt and they dont.

There has been a great injustice in the recording of our White Australian History in the failure to recognize that there were two very different tribes on those early boats although they all had white skin.

There were those that sat at goose, and those that festered in chains - those who stood at one end of the gun, and those that worked at the other. Why would the convicts, or their descendants, want the jailors, or their descendants, making the laws for them? Well they wouldnt and they dont.

We came here as two white tribes and we have been so ever since.

I would suggest that MichaelK is just a troll, but "smarter than the average troll". As I've suggested before, the only effective way of handling trolls is to ignore them. I have learned, the hard way, to never respond directly to a troll and rarely indirectly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

"In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others."

With most other posters, whether we agree with them or not, we can at least understand what they are getting at and respond appropriately.

"The values of freedom, democracy and the rule of law are clearly universal values."
Posted by Yung Yong, Sunday, 24 December 2006 11:44:00 PM

As the song says;
It aint necessarily so !
There are societies that do not believe in certain freedoms.
It is ingrained and I might even say in their genes.

BD, the eventual outcome of your approach is a monoculturalist nirvana, where you can sit in the centre and celbrate all the cultures that are at the margins and that only you and people like you give legitimacy to. You know where you can stick this Faith-Based Nihilism don't you!

Boaz, since it is clear you never intend to read Mosley's autobiography, I shall take it upon myself to feed you a few of the relevant abstracts, in the hope that you will recognize yourself in time, and turn away from the "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Führer" path you have elected to walk.

Mosley wrote:

"I am NOT repeat NOT about either making everyone white NOR am I about marginalizing everyone who is not white. I am.. repeat.. AM about dropping racist predjudices and mixing ourselves up, intermarrying, creating a new blended aussie."

Boaz wrote:

"Anti-semitism was not our policy, for I never attacked the Jews as a people. I never attacked any man on account of race or religion, and I never shall. A movement [the British Union of Fascists] which believed in a great future for Britain's world-wide empire with its large variety of races and creeds could never be 'racialist'"

Ooops, I may have those quotes in the wrong order. Easy mistake to make though.

Your rabble-rousing may well bring you great pleasure Boaz, but please, do not kid yourself i) that you are doing anything remotely constructive or ii) that what you are doing is harmless.

You talk compassion and tolerance when it suits your book, but your underlying message is exactly the same as Mosley's: every intelligent person should reject difference, and unite in defence against change of any kind.

>>I guess that makes the Left/MultiCultists the true racists and me the non racist.. mr clean if you like :)<<

The little smiley at the end gives you away - you know perfectly well that you have completely inverted the truth, so you pop in a little token of your insincerity at the end.

Mosley believed he was "mr clean" too, right to the end.

Thanks once again to Col.Rouge, I noticed “Conclusion re Michaelk. His posts are deliberate. It suits his infantile humour. Another good education wasted on an idiot” by Banjo.

You really compliment local professors if thinks they are capable to “teach” something but hatred to more talented outside their Anglo-South-African environment equipped with Australian passports especially.

Cilivia, I would find it difficult to quarrel with one’s statement that Australia is a cancerous tumour of English racism in the Southern Hemisphere, sucking resources from neighbours to feel coffins of Buckingham Palace owners to a great extent, and being benefited for it.

As long as this pumping into foreign pockets continues, anything of “milking Australia” sounds unreasonably.

And as mentioned in this forum already, presence of an Australian passport in a pocket doesn’t affect growth of tomatoes at all.

“Mosley wrote:

"I am NOT repeat NOT about either making everyone white NOR am I about marginalizing everyone who is not white. “
Thanks Pericles, this is a great quote you have supplied from Mosley Autobiography, In actual fact, the consistency of these views are displayed through out time; But for our Century influence;, Karl Marx had also published such statements towards Jews- Slavs- Negro's , he openly discusses his hatred, and his Intent; The darling Creator of the Proletariat Lobotomized And yes NAZIS. is our Karl Marx. Much of what Marx wrote and published sounded like Adolph, but obvious before his time;
It is not just a coincidence people are not aware of this:
The puzzle is finally taking shape.

There needs to be a distinguishable difference between Racism- Xenophobes and Natural resentment of Criminal Intent displayed by our Looting Elites. And never shall the two meet.

All-, my sledgehammer subtlety sometimes is confusing, I know, but the quote that you jumped on with glee was actually extracted from an earlier Boaz_David entry.

Your mistake ought to make Boaz sit up and take notice, though, before he embarks on his personal "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Führer" journey.

See, Boaz, how easy it is to be misunderstood?

If understood properly, a “there needs to be a distinguishable difference between Racism-Xenophobes and Natural resentment of Criminal Intent displayed by our Looting Elites. And never shall the two meet” allows your, ALL, clear differentiation between hatred on mere biological grounds Hiller spread worldwide and a Marx’s call on annihilating the super-riches non-discriminatorily.

Yung Yong said "a nation that opens doors and provides people from all backgrounds to embrace life and allowing them to reach their lifelong potential and dreams."

Australia is not a charitable organisation. Immigration should be primarily for the benefit of the people already here. That's why we want migrants who are able to contribute economically, intellectually and socially. In order to meaningfully contribute to Australian life and reach their maximum potential, migrants should be encouraged to integrate. Integration requires a sound knowledge of English. This may sound trite, but it needs to be reiterated. Can you imagine if the early non-British migrants refused to adopt English in favour of their mother tongues? The result would have been ethno-lingual separatism. Call me a bigot, but I fail to comprehend how social fragmentation enriches Australia.

It might be a long draw on a bow Michael, but the Marxoid synthesis has been replicated to date, just by the very nature of the called wealth distribution opens avenues for extremely unethical people; Although the premise of such an argument as Wealth distribution is Nobel, it is non the less an absurd Altruistic nonsense of total unachievable status.
It is the profound use of Moral sole ripping and tearing in Human and emotional psychology to present a solution where none can exist or will ever exist but only to bolster Proletariat Ideology by (Propaganda- Misinformation), Just by the very principles of its existence is an Oxymoron and does not have any foundations that would withstand probity.
It would not just be a coincidence the reference to Hitler, He did not act alone; But it is unusually predictable that Hitler is used and National- “Socialism” as the expendable vanguard- when the Proletariat decimation and body count’s would be very well much higher.
I would be interested to hear others views in reference to the Islamic Imperialism and colonization process at the moment , but I do not think I will hear the same level of criticism some how.

Australian values are not racist, we allow persons of different races to coexist. Where the conflict arises is in social values and different laws.

We believe all persons are equal before the law, and justice in cases of offense is administered by the State upon a balanced and fair trial.

We do not accept death under any circumstances as a sentence for an offender. Once death becomes a sentence then any crime can warrant death depending upon the law-makers and the Judges.

Tribalism: where tribal / cultural laws are enforced they have never witnessed National justice and harmony. The example Rainer raised on the history of tribal Australia pre modern settlement never witnessed settlement and reconciliation between them as they saw pay back as the balance of justice. However what one tribe saw as just the other saw as need to pay back by death to balance the books. The problem is they had no books to account for when justice was reached. Their justice was administered on their emotions at the time.

There needs to be universal values within the society. Australia is built upon the philosophy of universalism and all persons have equal value and responsibility within the society to see it function peacefully and harmonously for the good of all. Selfishness also is a tribal attitude that detracts from the greater good of society. The opposite value is generosity of heart, and I find Australians are generally generous people. However they hate abusers of their or others generosity.

ALL-
Redistribution of wealth is a natural process in societies where people achieve results on own natural rather then inherited socio-financial merits only.

Oligarch -
I share your opinion of non-charitable nature of Australia, highlighted by a number of foreign diplomats/politicians, due to immigration debates in their countries. However, integration is a two-way process, and a notion of preparedness of Anglo-Saxons/Celts to equal rather than patronising tolerantly-coexisting attitudes towards out-tribe-rs has been professionally avoided both in this forum and in the media.

Philo-
I think I've addressed your post with a message above.

The problem is they had no books to account for when justice was reached. Their justice was administered on their emotions at the time.

Gee Philo, do you travel back in time (perhaps in Dr Who's tardis) to speak so authoratively?

Pericles said: "You talk compassion and tolerance when it suits your book, but your underlying message is exactly the same as Mosley's: every intelligent person should reject difference, and unite in defence against change of any kind."

Your gratuitous overuse of hyperbole is tiresome. Since when did cohesion, harmony, practicality and functionality become inherently racist? It's obvious that you are completely antipathetical toward the modern concept of the nation-state, defined by shared culture and/or ethnicity. May I ask in relation to Australia - what kind of self-abasing individual would peddle such a cult of division?

let me pose a question.

Does there come a point when the costs and hassles of integrating/assimilating migrant groups or nationalities should cause us to stop all immigration of the group?

if so what should be the criteria?

The costs of absorbing any migrant are quite large, infrastructure provision, training, welfare, social security etc. (at least $20,000 to $30,000 per migrant)

These costs are borne by the existing population, so I think it is reasonable to examine the costs involved; especially if there are extra demands and costs because of the need for extra policing or welfare to deal with problems.

Interesting numbers, last word. Where do they come from?

>>The costs of absorbing any migrant are quite large, infrastructure provision, training, welfare, social security etc. (at least $20,000 to $30,000 per migrant)<<

On that basis, the cost to Australia of inward migration since the end of WWII has been between $120 and $180 billion dollars.

Where did this money come from? Where did it go? Did we make it ourselves? Is it still in Australia or did we send it overseas?

I learned many years ago a very important fact: that money has absolutely no value until it moves. And the fact is, it has to move from somewhere to somewhere else in order to be counted, so it is important to understand the source and destination before you go around saying it "cost" this or that.

It is economic activity that creates growth and wealth. The six million who have arrived on our shores since 1945 have been needing stuff and buying stuff, and thereby creating employment and prosperity for us all.

And you have a problem with that?

What a puzzling reproach, Oligarch.

>>Your gratuitous overuse of hyperbole is tiresome.<<

My OED defines hyperbole as "a figure of speech consisting in exaggerated or extravagant statement, used to express strong feeling or produce a strong impression, and not intended to be understood literally"

Please believe me, in my responses to Boaz' rabble-rousing rants, I mean every word to be taken literally.

But you also ask a reasonable question.

>>Since when did cohesion, harmony, practicality and functionality become inherently racist?<<

The answer is of course that cohesion, harmony, practicality and functionality don't ever become inherently racist.

But you knew that, didn't you?

What you really meant was that in your view, Boaz is promoting "cohesion, harmony, practicality and functionality", and therefore cannot possibly be deemed racist.

I beg to differ. I believe that he is promoting a particularly insidious form of racism, using his religious beliefs to verbally assault people he disapproves of, and to encourage others to follow in his footsteps. His campaign of "ONE NATION,ONE RACE, ONE CULTURE" (his capitals, not mine) is a pale but recognizable copy of the tactics used by Oswald Mosley in England in the 1930s, which is why I have chosen to relabel it "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Führer".

And even though that might be seen as "extravagant statement, used to express strong feeling or produce a strong impression", it is most certainly intended to be taken literally.

Please also believe me when I say I'm only trying to save him from the consequences of his folly.

A beautiful English, Last Word: "need for extra policing or welfare".

It is utterly unclear, whether this advanced linguistics deals with a corporate welfare, on which taxpayer billiards are being spent to sustain so-called "local industries", or only non-Anglos being rejecting in advance from any professional deployment for their low-race biology and some natives kept on dole to increase a pressure on being allowed to be employed?

Pericles, a land with near zero research provided uses advances from overseas only and Mosley is among the cliches, perhaps.

Well it is some what comforting to know our Elites have covered the research bit quite aptly; I hope most people are aware of existing legislation regarding Ethnic Employment and equal opportunity Act?
A rather marvelous bit of Proletariat lobotomization feels good freak show apparatus.
It only emboldens incompetence ( Agitprop) at the expense of the capable
Then someone better start some therapy on a few thousand students that failed to graduate from Medical school at the High standards required and failed by just a few points, only to be replaced by Ethnic Opportunities practitioners who’s qualifications at best are the minimum of thirty points lesser than our failed students;
And you call that reasonable.
It certainly opens the doors for some new innovative brake through research in idiocy.
The principled assertion is that Anglo Australians are inherently racist- and no other expounds such hatred or tendencies.

You see , that is exactly the ineptitude inherent when Proletariat Lobotomized do the research.

It is Extraordinary anyone supports it.

PERICLES yes..its easy to be misunderstood when people deliberately atttibute quotes to the wrong people and then others don't read all the post. Your problem not mine.

Mosely ? sheesh, you can't leave him alone can you,and you still don't appear to 'get' my message of unity, harmony and peace. It can only happen by persuasion and osmosis, not by hands on management, apart from tweaking government policy to promote a particular choice, which of course never happens now does it ?

I say "we have 3 diverse groups with competing interests, lets blend them to make one group with a shared interest"

You say 'This is bad and fascist' .. not exactly something I'd want to stand on a corner and rant about mate. I remind you the warfies never said "The Workers DIVIDED will never be defeated"..nope..they said 'United'. Social and Cultural diversity= friction and competition. Self evident.

RANIER..... My 'racism' meter is bouncing off the stop. You are misrepresenting my position for what appear to be racist reasons. What possible reason could their be for not wanting your daughter to marry my (mixed) son (if they liked each other) apart from 'racist' ones ?

Would you consider their union something abominable ? I wouldn't
I would see it as a wonderful thing. It would be a step toward reducing 'black/white' animosity. This is how the world works. Kings marry the daughters/princesses of their enemies to eliminate the likelihood of war.

CHALLENGE
Give me ONE good reason for not promoting 'racial,cultural unity' ?
just one.

To both of you, I maintain I am Mr Clean here.. no smiley this time-
but the same good will as intended by the last one.

Oh, yeAAAs, " most people are aware of existing legislation regarding Ethnic Employment and equal opportunity Act", but a much much much lesser number of people (PEOPLE- local-style English sounding Anglo-Aussies with still rare degrees in pockets?) know a way it WORKS in reality.

And all these "points" by local "professors" do not worth one tenth of a overseas qualified professionals' practical experience if especially from non-Anglo-world.

This Anglo-colony's opportunities are unworthy a time spent to complete migration forms recently, that is why "Lost Boys of Sudan" is only an option for local "businessmen" embracing the cash-in-hand economy, and their law-making "Aussie mates".

If that was the case Michael, then we are so dumb, we would be re- migrating to the foreign professor’s home lands – Yes?

Or would it be too impolite to say – their Home lands have become so corrupt and unlivable- they migrate to here?

And now our Land has been corrupted and becoming un- livable- So now we become equal- A rather odd way to view things.

Actually with the Graduating Students, I did not mention Nationality, primarily because they do vary, but they do not toe the party line; That’s why they are consigned to the scrap heap, You see, it is not so much an anti Anglo campaign now, it is Anti Intelligence- Anti Christian- and dare I say the newer Anti Semitic.

That’s why your Argument comes un- done. You seem to try pin point blame against a certain Ethnicity; "Anglo sphere”; or refine and define it; "Corcasion; “that culture war was fought, the Lobotomized proletariat have moved onto greater conquering Idealisms.

The Migration Zones are surprised Michel- the Anglo sphere zones, and are you surprised the Proletariat Chinese are adopting the exact epistemology that were the foundations of Western Civilization; Where our Liberal Proletariat bed Wetter brain dead killed it off?

I agree 100% about the financial control methodology; we are being wound up for a Slam Dunk; That Michael has become obvious. I do not understand why you have not developed the thought further and why you remain steadfast on the old mantra?

You seem to know it, but dare not say it!

Boaz, that's a politician's response, and you know it.

>>CHALLENGE
Give me ONE good reason for not promoting 'racial,cultural unity' ?
just one.<<

There are no reasons not to promote these values, but it is something that you yourself are not doing.

If you believe that your constant harping on about hadiths and surahs and how they infect the humanity of those you see as your religious opponents is promoting racial cultural unity, then you are, I am afraid, seriously deluding yourself.

Following on from Rex & Banjo's advise I am making a point of not encouraging trolls and thus ignoring Michaelk.

All-, friendly advise, I suggest you may benefit from my experience, responding to anything which Michaelk writes is a waste of time and might act to encourage more of his grammatic incompetence and racist vilification.

How ignoring anything no realistic answer suiting a higher race world mentors can be provided on E N G L I S H is!

Regrettably, ignoring reality is not synonymously to being even pro-overseas-crown loyal, not speaking of real interests of Australia in the time approaching.

So, All, "Anglo-sphere" is an official terminology used worldwide and must not be treated as the swearing by surprisingly pretending on something worldwide heralded by Australian governments, which is sure employment opportunities for skilled newcomers from outside the UK system especially.

I hardly get your hint on something anti-Semitic in my posts because an influx of South-African supremacists from non-Jewish background very much increased a number of so-called "Australian scientists" at local universities, where ethnics usually present at their historically-native either language departments or particular schools of religious studies, traditionally.

Surely, a number of India/Sri Lanka-originating lecturers is on rise as well, because they are similarly as much practically experienced as in subjects of their lecturing as having-once-some-technology-working-seen UK-linked local minders gratifying each other and their kids with perks at academia.

And you are, ALL, absolutely wrong speaking of Anglo-sphere as still a only magnet for migrants: Germany, Russia and the USA, that what estimated by a UN commission on international labour migration if I memorized rightly this UN particular office NICKNAME.

Moreover, a number of skilled legal migrants to Russia is tripled last year, and a Tampa-style workers' number is about seven millions, which is comparable with all the work-capable population of Australia.

Conclusively, Col.Rouge & aka's lack of elementary data on both internal and international issues hardly makes me crying for not being an object picked for playing their some English with.

Thanks Michael, but my intention in regards to anti-Semitism is not directed at you, but as a broad overview and a driver for Ideological possessed purposes of those Totalitarian inclinations.

Ummm, the Anglos-sphere was a simple intentional trap, but you did answer the whole intended concept; Germany – USA-Russia- etc- a once common trait out side the political philosophy that was hijacked. Their principled existence is No More relevant today as ours will be.
They have capitulated and have submitted to their control Totalitarian Freaks and will now depend on them for basic survival.
What a Lovely place we have now
The State will provide? ; Absolute convoluted crap. The Useless Idiot incorporated would be hard pressed finding the toilet bowl- as they have been so use to peeing in our pockets for so long.
And you let them?

By the way, this web site; http://www.familyrightsassociation.com/educate/new_class/morrison/postmodern.html#academic%20theory

Just about sums up the freak show we all must endure now days;
How about we just get back to basics and get on with it?

I personally like the idea of a citizenship test. I think it a great thing if one knows the history of where they live and can feel some amount of pride. But introducing the language barrier is silly. That limits many people of the world. And most of the immigrants who are moving to what they hope to a better life will probably respect and be much more loyal than many spoiled children of Australia. And by living in the country they will eventually learn English and therefore making it the only language for a citizenship test is only causing unnecessary controversy.

I thank Boaz for the laugh at how any topic can become religious. And I should like to add that I am a strong believer that religion and politics should never mix.

Back on TOPIC. If this citizenship test is indeed a way to keep immigrants out of Australia, then I am sorry Canada's government was once thought of as similar to Australia. I love the idea of immigrants. They are bringing more to a country, not taking things away.

Interesting site, All, at least from viewpoint of a comprehensive volume of information provided.

My opinion is simple as a cow’s moo: adjusted to environment where trance-English Channel relatives in France were becoming shorter on their heads upon “turmoils”, English royalty had adapted a then really revolutionary British parliamentary system.

As centuries pass by, France, the USA and many other countries among which modern post-communist Eastern European states are, integrate in and further develop a notion of democracy, of which a traditional grounding British form today is as much workable as a first automobile produced in a next to the next to the last century.

Moreover, news from France -that is a traditionally subversive rival- just questions too much in modern Australia:

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/06012007/290/acte-de-cannibalisme-a-rouen-l-avocat-denonce-la-maison.html

(An inmate had eaten parts of lungs and a heart of co-prisoner while in the same cell a third man was witnessing all set of fried meal consumption process).

So, were they all-French or descending from other backgrounds? And how any sort of education could allow such a happening at Rouen’s state prison? And had inmates got a France's citizenship? And, and, and…

Probably, all these questions can surely be avoided by those told being the MOST human humans already inheritably.

However, Jack the Ripper is a part of a British history not less unknown worldwide than his nowadays follower in Ipswich, or toddler boy-killers for instance.

Pericles
on that one point you are absolutely correct. I see no possibility for cultural unity with Islam in the picture. Not a skeric. I've never hidden this.
Your criticism of my reference to Surah's and hadiths surprises me, I suppose if you were a trustee of a discretionary trust you would make no reference whatsoever to the terms and rules of such a trust ?

Sadly Pericles, your lack of realizing where things are heading, does not change that dangerous direction. But apart from Islam, I am vigorously promoting cultural and racial unity.

Alia... your view is a personal one, rather than an "Islamic" one, where religion and state are in fact intertwined and one and the same.
You have adjusted your approach to enable you to accomodate the fact that you are living in a basically not Muslim country and this is fine as far as it goes.

As I've said many times, the likes of you and Fellow Human and Irfan are not who I perceive as a threat. Those I see as threats are the ones on the radical end of the spectrum.
But the radicals in my view, are the real Muslims, as they adhere to the principles of Sharia and that is where it gets ugly.

Wahabbism and Salafism are not far from us. 19 Micheal Street Brunswick to name but one. We have 13 men on trial in Melbourne, 11 in Sydney, 6 rocket launchers are still to be found (evidence suggests they are currently held by radical Muslim criminals)
I notice that the IISC was holding a BBQ 'against racism and sexual assault'.. I'd love to have been there with a sign saying "Australia rejects Surah 23:5-6" which in fact AUTHORIZES sexual abuse of captive slave girls for all time. I think you have been brought up with Islam and thus simply accept it because its ur culture. Please have a peek at this http://www.truetruth.wikispaces.com
Alia..have you ever had a real close look at surah 33:50 ?

Just to throw some petrol on the fire.

Someone up the page was suggesting that testing immigrants was unfair because those who acquired citizenship by birth right were subjected to no such test and some moron (who we could all point at but who can remain nameless) even grossly exaggerated the rates of illiteracy to underscore what was a fatuous point in the first place.

However, despite the expectations we all have to universal suffrage, maybe we could step back and consider this.

We are presently one of the few places in the world which makes attending the ballot station compulsory.

To address the inequity of making English a test for immigrants wishing to acquire citizenship, should we possibly consider making tests of English, Australian Constitution and Australian parliamentary processes a requirement for anyone wishing to register to vote?

Certainly it would likely reduce the number of ambiguous and spoilt votes. It would stop little old Ladies of several ethnic minoritiews being told where they must vote by their more autocratic family members.

I am merely floating an idea... and invite all to respond

No cultural linkage with Islam?

How long far ago indigenous heads stopped being demolished MECHANICALLY to spare bullets?

A hatred to non-belonging to an Anglo-Celtic-Saxon tribe and hypocrisy that is an above mentioned passive election right of foreigners-the UK subjects being in-titled in Australia for are among the most obvious common futures between local xenophobic majority and Islamists.