*The assignation of gender roles is cultural, rather than biological*

Not so CJ, or the women would have evolved to have the muscles and
the blokes the maternal instincts. That so called "intuition" when
it comes to raising babies etc, matters.


*Biology's a very powerful influence on how he we behave, but has far less to do with how we think.*

Every thought is coloured by emotional input, although mostly at
the subconcious level. Instincts matter. Note how some people are
"driven". Note how people will feel something, then think of a reason
to justify it.

You need to brush up on your neuroscience CJ :)

Now chaps, this is getting a bit silly.

Ludwig - I didn't concede anything. Rather, I apologised for being ill-mannered. It's not the same thing.

Yabby - You seem to be unaware that there's a difference between sex and gender. I don't deny neuroscience, rather it's one of the critical distinctions between humans and animals that we've evolved cultural means to transcend mere physicality. Indeed, the extent to which we collectively do so is what we consider to be 'cultured' and 'civilised' - that's what those words mean.

Yes, we all feel emotions, along with various other basic impulses - but the measure of how cultured and civilised we are is in the extent to which we control them, or at least are obliged to by the rules and norms of the society in which we live.

*rather it's one of the critical distinctions between humans and animals that we've evolved cultural means to transcend mere physicality*

CJ stop kidding yourself. Chimps have been shown to invent tools,
then teach their young how to use them. There is actually a book
called "Chimpanzee Cultures".

We might think a bit more then they do, but we certainly don't
transcend mere physicality.

In fact people are often happiest, following their feelings.

I have a good friend who is maternal by nature, that is just how
she is. She recently said that if the kids did not hurry up and
make some grandkids, she would have to buy some :) All your
transcending mere physicallity means bulldust to her, for she is
happy being just as she is, maternal as she is. It is part of her
nature, it drives her and gives her purpose in life.

Now yes, you can force people to be something with which they are
not happy, or themselves. You can force them to be miserable.

If you call that civilisation, well its got nobs on it.

Emotions and thoughts are intertwined. People are not robots, more
like feeling beings who think a bit.

CJ Morgan:"I guess you missed the earlier point in the discussion where I showed up Antiwomen as the intellectual charlatan that he is?"

Aw, how sweet, OLO's intellectual pomeranian has gone and chewed the "head" off his old sock-puppet again. Doesn't he look proud of himself, the little scamp?

Now, how did that report (http://tinyurl.com/ljbell) go again - ""The recession has not affected women’s unemployment as seriously as it has men’s". Strange that the news media and the ACTU reported exactly the opposite conclusion, don't you think?

Thanks for reminding us of that, little fella, you're doing a great job.

Yabby:"Chimps have been shown to invent tools,
then teach their young how to use them."

So have crows. The "smartest" corvids have now been shown to be able to use up to 3 different tools in succession to achieve their aims, thus proving that some birds aren't birdbrains. Sadly, CJMorgan, OLO's resident birdbrain, manages to prove daily that some people are just tools...

An illuminating take on the subject from the Courier-Mail of all places http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26002528-23272,00.html

From the article:"Kate was feeling the strain of being a stay-at-home mum trying to juggle the demands of three boisterous boys and a limited budget.

I made what I thought was a caring suggestion: "Why don't you find a job and I'll quit and be a stay-at-home-dad?" I meant it.

She looked at me with the sort of hostility you would expect if I had just revealed I was having an affair.

"Are you insane?" she snorted. "Why would I want to do that?"

Welcome to the reality of the supposed glass ceiling, the alleged invisible conspiracy by the male-dominated economy to keep women out of senior roles in the workforce.

Every time I see one of the regular reports by the union movement or women's groups about how women get a rough deal in the workplace, I think of that conversation with my wife."

I had a similar experience with my own wife, when she became pregnant. Despite the fact that she had been building a good photography business and had multiple degrees, there was never any question in her mind that when the baby arrived, she'd be giving it all up for the foreseeable future.

If I had suggested that I might take over the caring role, I would have been lucky to get away with my skin intact.

The fact that some women don't feel that way, or have prioritised work to the exclusion of a family is no reason for the majority who do to be pushed aside, or their experience to be minimised.

The "me-first" feminists have a lot to answer for.

CJ:”The assignation of gender roles is cultural, rather than biological. I think that in 21st century it's somewhat anachronistic to be arguing that because it's women who carry, give birth and suckle infants that they should simply accept relative subordination in an economy that now demands their paid participation.”

I have a boy and a girl, both old enough to be parents, both parenting since they were little. Boy actually has faster reflexes and if a child is about to fall he’ll always get there first. Girl will spot an accident and stop it five minutes before it occurs.

Culture can assign gender roles, males and females can learn different roles. This is more talking “adequate” care rather than instinctive nurturing…?

Yabby there are real physical things aren’t there? Women have better peripheral vision, better at recognizing facial expressions – stuff that gives us advantages in childcare.

Ant:”If I had suggested that I might take over the caring role, I would have been lucky to get away with my skin intact. The fact that some women don't feel that way, or have prioritised work to the exclusion of a family is no reason for the majority who do to be pushed aside, or their experience to be minimised.”

When someone says to a mum who wants to stay at home “why don’t you go get a job” it feels like “why don’t we just rip you screaming away from your children and destroy all bonds”. Serious Anti, feels a full frontal assault. We don’t know how to say we don’t want to work and just want to stay home with the kids, be here for them etc – it sounds lazy. "Full time parent" is not an acknowledged or important role in this culture.