'We don’t know how to say we don’t want to work and just want to stay home with the kids, be here for them etc – it sounds lazy. '

It doesn't sound lazy to any guy who knows women Piper. Just like it doesn't sound selfish or cold hearted to any women who knows men if he says 'something came up and I just cant come home early from work'.

CJ might want to ignore my cake mathematics, but sensible people here argue at a level above CJ's picture of all women really just wanting to be in the boardroom, and those nasty men oppressing them into a subservient home-maker by refusing to look after the kids. He can bandy about his Neanderthal tags, but in doing so he's labelling any woman who forms a close bond with her kiddies like you just as much as he labels a guy who is a proud provider for his family (unlike me).

'"Full time parent" is not an acknowledged or important role in this culture.''

Na of course it's not. You are what you do. Be grateful, at least it's a little bit more socially acceptable role for chicks than guys.

BTW: The glass ceiling is well known, but a little known phenomena is the glass floor. No matter how clean a man mops the floor, there will always be a woman who decides it isn't clean!

Women will never be equally represented in the boardrooms of Australia until men are accepted for their legitimate floor cleaning abilities!

One cannot happen without the other, something CJ is yet to learn!

The naturally nurturing instinct which exists within most females shouldn't be regarded solely in regards to mothering, vitally important though that role is.

The female capacity to nurture and empathise is something that should also be given greater emphasis and recognition within the workplace and within public policy formulation more broadly. This has always been the feminist position I've argued. Feminine values are needed to counterbalance the current dominance of individualism, competition and aggression, or if you like the hunter/warrior traits.

I once hoped that feminism would achieve this counter-balancing effect, but sadly I don't see much evidence of it.

CJ,
An anthropologist, I'm fascinated. I've read a quite a few but actually conversed only two and years ago. You must have conniptions at my very amateurish assessments at times.. You should comment more on what I write I'd appreciate the guidance/feedback.

I've had the discussion with Yabby several times about the place of neuroscience in the mix but he seems to display the myopic zealotry of an amateur's obsession. I don't think he understands how electo-chemically deterministic his stance is.
As I Keep raving about everything has a 'context'.
Objectively the LEVEL of almost absolute influence he claims hasn't/can't been scientifically substantiated because of the inseparable nature of the mix context.

Having the knowledge is one thing but the key is knowing HOW/When to apply it. Yes I agree, this too is my failing all too often.

CJ:”BTW: The glass ceiling is well known, but a little known phenomena is the glass floor. No matter how clean a man mops the floor, there will always be a woman who decides it isn't clean!”

I am so guilty of that. It’s almost territorial, if someone else does do a better job at cleaning something in my house I feel slighted in some way. Probably happens in the workforce all the time too.

“It doesn't sound lazy to any guy who knows women Piper. Just like it doesn't sound selfish or cold hearted to any women who knows men if he says 'something came up and I just cant come home early from work'.”

He’s guilty of that – but more like “oh sorry I wont be back in the country for another 6 months”.

Yep you are right about it being a more “acceptable” role for women. Is that based in the fact we can do it better? I’m trying to be fair though, I would say a man could put his foot down in the workforce and get something done better than most women?

Women don’t like upsetting anyone? Men don’t take on another person’s feelings? I’m kinda digging a hole for myself there aye. Insert the word “some” all over the place.

Bronwyn the only professional women I deal with are DoCS caseworkers, some really lovely ones with genuine concern for the kids when they are at my house. Never stops them making decisions that are very bad for the children but if they aren’t around to witness it, mop up the tears, deal with the emotional fallout etc they go ahead and do the paperwork anyway.

I get much angrier at the females who I believe should know better and listen to a mum when talking about children that live in her home. They can live with me for years and my opinions and concerns equal zero.

Damn Anti - he's put in a right crappy mood.

*I've had the discussion with Yabby several times about the place of neuroscience in the mix but he seems to display the myopic zealotry of an amateur's obsession. *

ROFL Examinator! The real problem is that you don't know much about
neuroscience at all, but are trying to make out that you do :)

My information is not pulled out of thin air, it comes from great
neuroscience writers like Richard Restak, Susan Greenfield and others.

You are free to read the same stuff and educate yourself, if you
wish.

You are also seemingly unable to look at the big picture, but
immediately quibble about the details. We have 350 words at a time,
details take volumes. That does not mean that we cannot understand
the big picture, for it matters.

Yes, in all likelyhood there is far more determinism going on in
our minds, then we would like to admit.

Hi examinator - yes, I had to retire for health reasons about 10 years ago. I don't mention my former profession very much here except when it's relevant to bring a qualified perspective to something that's being discussed. In the case of Yabby's obsession with biological determinism, it's a classic example of an interested amateur selectively reading some valid literature without placing it in the context of the extensive and often controversial debates among professionals.

My area of specialisation was what they call the anthropology of the body, which meant that I used to teach all the biological stuff (including hominid evolution and medical anthropology), as well as contributing to various gender-related subjects. Most of my field research was conducted in the PNG highlands in the 1990s - and I have indeed noticed that you seem to have been reading some ethnography from that part of the world!

Yabby talks about the 'big picture' while myopically focusing on a very small part of it. While various animals have evolved very simple 'cultures', to try and use that as an argument against the primacy to humans of our complex and elaborate cultures and societies is to miss the point. Yes, we share any number of biological and neurological features with other members of the animal kingdom, but it is our cultures that critically distinguish us from other animal species.

In short, what has made humans so successful as a species is that we are able to develop cultural, social and technological means by which we are able to move beyond the constraints of our biological inheritance. Gender roles are a good example of that.