There has been a lot of talk in the media of late about the lack of housing in aboriginal communities in the NT.

Saw a couple of letters in the Aus this morning that, to me, have merrit.

I have no ideas as to who the writers are or their expertise, but I have seen some pretty good transportable homes and even brick vaneer.

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/letters/index.php/theaustralian/comments/the_vested_interests_in_failure_are_just_too_powerful/

Anyone on OLO care to comment?

I guarantee that self righteous know it alls will label anyone telling the truth on these matters as racist.

Banjo,
Good if huge topic.
I think the problem is a symptom of a greater malaise.
Belly and I alluded to it is previous discussions the problem is as I understand it multi layered.
Simply providing houses to be neglected or trashed is an exercise in futility. A bit like giving a person with a brain tumour codeine tablets alone.

My contact in this area clearly showed that the standard whitey style house ignores kinship and cultural issues.

One experiment I know of in PNG and in Adelaide that seemed to work was to build a "long house" which better accommodated their cultural 'one talk' kinship needs.
Setting the right authority structures was a second issue. Combating the 'cargo' mentality is another (free lunch concept)
One needs to fully understand the tribal culture in that under this system there are no bludgers every one has responsibilities to their family clan etc.Everyone had a personal place.
Western concepts have destroyed the inclusive/cohesiveness and replaced it with selfishness, a 'benevolent' government, petty jealousies and anonymity to the system. All without their cultural means of release/control/authorities, sense of personal dignity etc.
the list goes on.
I fear until we resolve the basic problems all the causal issues will continue.
The conflict is one of our arrogant making. the key question is what do we do? Is the victim mentality and the whitey's basic lack of understanding (and ignorant belligerence on both sides too entrenched?)
Creating a 'coconut' brown on the outside with the worst of the white isn't it.
I would suggest real acceptance/accommodation as opposed to guilt money and latent resentment would be a good place to start

Dear Banjo,
God created man to Tend his garden and that means meaningful work. Being married to an indigionis lady who loves the Lord and knows the value of Gods word she understands why verses like idle hands make much mischief and my people perish from lack of knowledge are in his word. Noel Pearson as a Lutheren was brought up on a steady diet of Gods word and is realising it is still true no matter what the world choses to believe. My father died a very disolusioned man for he trusted his beloved Labor Party and Whitlam Borrowed and set this country on the road to inflation to pay back the debt and dad's life savings became valueless as he didn't have the knowledge to protect them. Liberal democrats in U.S.A. are trying to build a new society based on prevention. God's kingdom opperates on protection not abortion, uthenatia, shortage or lack. The only thing I see coming out of accidents are disasters not Beautiful as the wourld would have us believe. God Loves us so much That He Sent his only Son to pay the price for our wilful behaviour.He suffered an horendus death on a cross to pay the price for our sin and we reject him at our peril and will have to pay the price, so unnessecarly.
I sometimes attend rallies where the Pastor is an indigionis man and he knows that Gods word is not the problem BUT we make our own trouble and the world under the curse is a very dangerous place and bad things happen to all.

Thats what happens a cargo-culture expects handouts and a socialist government exists to apply a salve for a mythical guilt by providing handouts.

the myth is perpetuated, the the detriment of both the recipient and the providers of the handout...

but some fat bureacrats and the political conscience of a bunch of demented lefties are appeased.

I wonder when Krudd will get off his arse and say "sorry" to the tax payers of Australia?

examinator,
I do not think the letter writers were trying to address all the social problems with aboriginal communities which need to be looked at as well as housing.

There seems to have been much criticism about bureaucratic delays and the high costs of the housing. These are the issues the writers focused on.

As for design, I understand that, as long as one stayed within certain parameters that enable transportation, the interior design can be such to suit ones needs without additional costs.

Banjo,
Absolutely and there in lies the crux to the problem.
Simple or quick solutions don't work.
Attitudes like Col's are endemic in certain demographics in the the wider community.
As a consequence simple solutions are demanded of the Government yet on the other these same limited informed(biased) demand unrealistic responses/results which in turn culminates in a bureaucratic night mare.
The sad thing is these same simple solution individuals then go on a 'a victim must be found' hunt without really analyzing what caused the issue in the first place.
IMHO it's a case of the chicken or the egg in a cause and effect context. Hence my comment about codeine.
I suspect theat it's a case of too many wrong people trying to get their share of the credit....the operation was a success jolly good show ( but the patient died)
IMHO and (I guess committing OLO suicide ) I suggest that the key to all this is tribal and tribal responsibility. Mega groups and Area tribal councils serve their purpose but not at the delivery end of the equation. it is whitey's failure to recognize this is near the root of the problem...i.e you must be like us.
In any efficiency discussion results need to feature more.

the grand Proctologist "Attitudes like Col's are endemic in certain demographics in the the wider community."

You mean people who get jacked off by stupid politicians squandering tax dollars on the quixotic pursuit of trying to turn the indolent into the industrious or settling the nomads, regardless of what the nomads want and forcing everyone to share in the common poverty and look the same (from some demographic perspective, within the wider community).

“As a consequence simple solutions are demanded of the Government yet on the other these same limited informed(biased) demand unrealistic responses/results which in turn culminates in a bureaucratic night mare..”

If solutions don’t work (simple or otherwise).. don’t insult me or waste my tax dollars on proving the fact, I have better things I could spend it on than tilting at Windmills

Better a government, bereft of insight and vision, do nothing than simply act against the national interest by wasting the resources which they extort, through taxes, from the people who elect them.

You might not like my “Attitude” but it is that “Attitude” which, as your post admits, many people share.

Of course, we are all allowed to express our attitudes as we see fit and no self-opinionated pontificator will stop me.

“it is whitey's failure to recognize this is near the root of the problem...i.e you must be like us.”

Regarding ‘whitey’: tell me how many racial castes apart is someone allowed to marry without providing some cursory evidence of ‘whiteys problem’?

If I were to marry another “ex-patriate pome”, would that mean I was perpetuating a “whitey problem” or bias?

Would the same “whitey problem” apply if I were to marry say, an Asian?

nothing has changed in this discussion since it first emerged in the 1970s. demountable houses have already been trashed because they have been an imposed solution with an accompanying lack of health facilites, education, justice administration, security, employment and opportunity for economic advancement required to support housing.
the solution has always been and always will be indigenous self management.
but indigenous communities traditionally govern themselves by agreement between women's and men's councils which contravenes sex discrimination laws enacted to achieve equal rights for women in Western communities despite the anomaly that the Australian Constitution contravenes these same laws by providing for men's legislatures only. so indigenous self management cannot be funded by law.
bureaucrats in a state of perpetual confusion over women's and men's business intervene and fail.
Pearson and others accomplish what they can under a prohibition on tradition.
Aborigines suffer while introduced Australians work out how to achieve equal rights.
indigenous communities will solve their problems when Australians declare an equal rights republic governed by agreement between women's and men's legislatures and committees, which can lawfully fund indigenous self management.

Dear Banjo,

I've got to confess that I know 'zip,'
'nada,' on this subject. I've never
visited an Aboriginal community - and
the only things I've personally dealt with are
the 'dreamtime,' stories, and their
other myths and legends.

I love their
beautiful arts and crafts - and of course I know
their tragic past history - I've read-
all the books and literature I could get
a hold of. But my 'personal experience,'
is non-existant. I suspect that's true of
most of us - 'white,' Australians.

One of my brothers however lives in Kempsey, NSW -
and visited us recently here in Melbourne.
I was horrifed at his "anti-Aboriginal," stand
on so many issues. I ended up calling him a "racist."
To which he calmly replied, "Sis, you should live
next door to some of them - then you'd understand
the issues!"

Perhaps - but I prefer to think that I'd still not be as
judgemental as he was.

I admire the eloquence of Examinator's posts.
He seems to have summed up the subject beautifully.
Far better than I ever could. So, on this topic -
I'll side with Examinator. It makes a great deal
of sense - what he's said.

Before making judgements about any people - we have to
understand their culture - and where they're coming from -
we can't expect everyone to be just like us. And think
that's the only and right way!

“it is whitey's failure to recognize this is near the root of the problem...i.e you must be like us.”

The root of the problem is "you're NOT like us"! What whitey has and what "blacky" wants is a product of whitey's culture. If you want these products then the only way you're going to get them is by participating in that culture and not isolating yourself from the mainstream while talking about "my culture, my people". If you want aboriginal culture that's fine, just don't complain when it doesn't produce nice houses, cars, hospitals etc. In this regard aboriginal culture is the problem, not the answer.

If you define success as relative affluence i.e. a nice car to drive, a nice house to live in etc. then the aboriginals that have this are the ones who went to school, got a job, saved money, took out loans for a house etc. In other words they participate in whitey's culture.

As I said in another post elsewhere, isolating yourself in a remote community clinging to a stone age culture is a guaranteed dead end. Call me racist if you will, but I don't want to see people of any race dying before their time, lacking an education and living in abject poverty. The billions of dollars of aboriginal funding has hardly made an impact. When there is a large scale attitudinal change within the aboriginal population their situation will rapidly improve. Within a couple of generations their standard of living will be identical to ours.

Whistler, you mentioned that the answer to the housing crisis should be '...indigenous self management.'
Having had personal experience in this method, I beg to differ.
An Aboriginal Council was elected to run an Aboriginal-only community somewhere in Australia several years ago.
A parcel of land was allocated. Streets were made, houses were built and a community centre erected. All were built by the Aboriginal people who were to reside in this community.
Much money was spent on this Culturally-friendly community. Community buses were provided and a community health centre established, with the Aboriginal Medical Service to staff it.
An Aboriginal manager was appointed to oversee the community.
Within a year, these people destroyed all the houses built in this community. They ripped off doors and floorboards and roof shingles to burn in their fires, despite the community being surrounded by native bush and trees. They refused to pay water or power bills.
They were then given more money to rebuild houses that were more difficult to destroy. Aluminium fittings and solar power hot water systems were provided.
They threw stones at the solar panels until they were destroyed.
These houses too were eventually wrecked until all the occupants moved out of the community again. They complained that the Government would not provide more houses again.
I left my job helping these people when I began to despair.
I don't know what the answer is anymore.

yes Moondoggy i mentioned demountables, and much more has been trashed.
the entire middle management of women's and men's business has been ripped out and the elders cop the flak.
i'm so excited a Republic of Australia will have the first women's legislature of the modern era,
just as First Australians celebrate women's legislatures of the ancient era.

So I take it that no one cares that housing has been promised and not one has been built as yet, or that the costs per house appear astronomical.

So the two blokes were wasting their time suggesting ways to get the job done and obtain better results for taxpayers money.

A Dobrowich.
You are right in one sense it was and clearly from your perspective it truly is a case of because you're not like us that whitey feels the need to convert etc.
Consider this, If we were to swap two babies at birth between "stonage culture" and our 'superior' (sic?) 21st century one and raise the children in those alternative cultures then compare the results at say 25 the one raised in the white culture would apart from physical differences would be indistinguishable from others in the same environment.
Now given that nature(evolution) devolves(eliminates) unnecessary features why then are there not lessor IQ differences?
what can we draw?
a. Logically then the IQ (smarts etc) are needed/used by the 'primitives'. (their cultures don't inhibit their humanity intelligence empathy etc.)

b. following that evolution changes and not necessarily in a lateral or forward direction then how can you in all logical honesty have such pejorative views of stone age cultures?
Can I humbly suggest that perhaps their culture better suit the circumstances of their natural state.By comparison the Shaman culture tend to be happier and exhibit less stress, greater individual empowerment than many posters seem to indicate.

The problem with mass cultures is that we demand absolutism we can't tolerate other cultures....yet the same isn't true of most 'primitive' cultures.
The problem with these cultures is that the cross overs always leaves
the person in no where land struggling for identity.

Then we have the mismatch of concepts as in languages...most shamanistic cultures/languages are literal, no abstracts no superlatives or adjectives as such. e.g there are 52 words for smoke.
No you try and translate " I go to my father and prepare a mansion in his home for you" to the literal minded it interpolates and a right to goods so why not now?

The point is the damage has been done what is at issue is what to do about it. Pejorative assumptions and racial stereotyping only widen the understanding gap.

Banjo whether the two blokes are wasting their time
depends on how long before
Australia becomes an equal rights republic.

examinator

Why are some self-managing communities safe and healthy places for women and children (yes, for men too) yet others are not? Why are they different and who makes it so?

Housing is not the answer. Self worth is and you do not find that in a selfish selfcentred useless culture of petrol, drugs, and alcohol so seek yea first the kingdom of God and all needs are met. There is ONLY one way out of the mess of this world system and that way is found in Jesus. Lock up the Cape, lock up the rivers, cut out the choices and eventualy we must turn to God because he is the only hope in a world of hopelessness. If "My people" who are called by my name would Humble themselves and TURN from their wicked ways and cry out to me, I will hear from heaven, forgive their sin and heal their land.
Jesus said "I am the door" there is no other way. All other man made kingdoms fail. My doctor who is first a christian then am iniated tribal man tells me culture is the excuse used to cover self. And it is a poor substitute to the robe of righteousness only supplied by trusting Jesus as the "Lifesaver". So all men have a choice to make.
Sing along with Frank Sinatra "I did it my way" or cry out "Come Lord Jesus come".

Cornflower
Aborigenes have two choices,
1. They accept Australian reality , mix with the rest of Australians and lose their ID for ever or
2. Remain isolated from the rest of Australians but keep their culture, their basic ID.
In the first case the ONLY hope for them is to become equal with the rest of Australians, this is very easy one, any time they can do it BUT if they want to maximize their interests as the bosses of this land for many thousands of years, if they want to establish their onw state, if they want to claim the maximum posible benefits from their land then THEY MUST STAY IN REMOTE AREAS, THEY MUST KEEP ALIVE THEIR CULTURE, THEY MUST FIGHT FOR THEIR RIGHTS.
I stand between both sides I understand and support aborigenes rights without to ignore our interests.
The qestion is what we will give to them and what we will keep for us.
They know what they do, they have good advisors who know aborigenes rights, and the sensitivities and direction of the international comunity on aborigenes rights.
WE AUSTRALIANS DO NOT FINISH YET WITH THEM, IN REAL WITH HAVE NOT START WITH THEM YET!
They know what they are doing and we are not sure what to do with them!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

The lord high pomposity “Pejorative assumptions and racial stereotyping only widen the understanding gap.”

That would be “Racial stereotyping in the context of

“it is whitey's failure to recognize…”

An expression I can attribute directly to you …

adding rank hypocrisy to your over abundance of pomposity.



Richie 10 “Housing is not the answer. Self worth is and you do not find that in a selfish selfcentred useless culture of petrol, drugs, and alcohol”

Wholly agree.. self worth is a function of self support and self esteem… the stuff which one achieves by one own self reliance and not a reliance on the Nanny state handouts of the profligate socialists.




ASymeonakis “They accept Australian reality , mix with the rest of Australians and lose their ID for ever”

Ah you mean like when the Angles and the Saxons lost their “ID” to become Anglo-Saxons?

And “THEY MUST STAY IN REMOTE AREAS, THEY MUST KEEP ALIVE THEIR CULTURE, THEY MUST FIGHT FOR THEIR RIGHTS.”

I find it impossible to accept the prejudices of people who will argue “multiculturalism” as a justification to deny the “English” origins of Australian settlement and its institutions; whilst simultaneously arguing the complete opposite policy regarding aboriginal “purity” and insisting aboriginals "MUST" do anything.

Personally, I think aboriginals would be better off assimilating with "white" australia even to simply benefit from easier access to the social and medical services which support the greater longevity of life and lower child mortality rates, as is, I understand, are a matter of statistical record.



“Hypocrisy” is rapidly becoming the word of the day

Hello Col. "Aboriginal" is the adjective, "Aboriginee" is the noun. Thank you.

"Aborigine" should have been typed by me.

Dearest Col,
Your mental agility and prejudices can be compared to the physical agility of a Dreadnought....20 odd miles to turn around to catch up with the action.... no wonder they're obsolete.

Being that I'm a 'whitey' I think I'm entitled to sling off at us.
Much the same way a Greek can refer to himself as a wog but others can't.In this context it's more satirical than racist... but I forget you are a special case. Sorry if you've been left behind.

Love examinator ant

For those that may be interested, there was an article here, on OLO, about 2 years ago about an aboriginal community called Windale, which is just south of Newcastle, NSW. In that the author stated that this community had the highest incidence of child abuse in Aus. Now it has one of the lowest incidence. It took them 8 years to acheive this but they did and what a remarkable acheivement. The article did not attract much comment which I found strange as such deserves acknowledgement. I tried to find out just how they managed to get this result but could not get further information. I did make sure the Minister knew about it and maybe I'll visit one day and ask the locals.

I supported the NT intervention because it was to reduce the neglect and abuse of kids and women. I was pleased the current government continued on with the programe, even if modified.

Now I believe the report that started the intervention stated that overcrowding and the lack of housing was one of the key reason for the situation.

That being so, I am dismayed and disgusted that an all out effort has not been made to rectify this. I find it hard to accept that the money has been allocated and absolutely nothing has been done.

So much for government promises

So often racism is blamed for things, when it is nothing more than apathy, Yes apathy by us, by governments, bureaucrats and aboriginals and their community leaders.

I agree with some of what Foxy has said and with a lot that Moondoggy has said.

This is such a complex topic.

Maybe if the migaloos posting here could give us some background information about their first hand experience with murri housing issues then we may better understand some of the root causes of this problem.

As a Migloo, which translates to White Brother, in North Queensland Murri Talk, I have seen the state of houses built in a manner that is just not suitable to the social conditions of the township in which they are built.

Anyone who passed through Doomagee about twenty years ago, would have seen the exposed skeletons of houses built of fibro cement. Every panel was smashed and the bones were exposed. Wooden floors burn well on a cold night, and were taken up, piled in the middle of the room on the earthen floor, and burned. Windows were punched out.

The solution was to build cement block houses, with concrete floors, and shutters insread of windows. Hard on the fists to punch concrete blocks. I am aware that a clever architect built and designed some suitable housing for some Northern Territory communities. The floors were slatted, so that on hot nights a breeze could flow upwards through the house. The house was raised so water would not flow through during the big wet seasons experienced in Northern Australia. And instead of windows, big shutters were made that could be propped open on hot nights, instead of windows, both keeping the rain out, and providing ventilation.

I haven’t been in the Territory for over ten years, so I don’t know what has happened since. The Territory is an interesting place, with differing ethnic groups, and different reactions in different places. Some aboriginal Australians are model tenants and home owners, but some white people are awful tenants too, and the tenant from hell, is an urban legend.

Part of the problem is grog. I have seen aboriginal women who could give a mouse a lesson in keeping quiet when sober, get drunk, and make enough noise to awaken the dead, all night long. Much of the damage occurs when people get drunk, and some communities have voted themselves dry. It is a complex problem with no simple answers except probably better education in the longer term

Well it looks as though examinator is not going to answer my questions so here they are again for all comers:

Why are some self-managing communities safe and healthy places for women and children (yes, for men too) yet others are not? Why are they different and who makes it so?

Just adding some comment for examinator who thought that long houses (as in PNG) are a solution, many of the problems of alcohol, overcrowding, violence and sexual molestation of minors comes from the itinerant longrassers who take advantage of 'hospitality' through kinship. That is why some communities that have suffered this problem have asked for security in the shape of high chainwire fences with gates to lock shut at night.

Of course you could have long houses for such itinerants but then you encounter the problems that they cannot be located near the houses of the resident community; how to keep order in the long houses, especially at night and who will clean them? Finally, it is impossible to provide enough houses (long or otherwise) to cope with the almost random movement of longrassers.

Housing isn't the first problem. The first priority is to ensure law and order, the next is to ensure that guvvy money is used for the purposes for which it was approved. There are many reports and recommendations of the federal government's own auditor (ANAO), which were tabled in parliament and yet somehow escape mention when indigenous policy is being considered.

One day, hopefully soon, it will not be seen as racist to tell the Truth about problems like this.
Not racist to cry with joy at Rudd's sorry speach yet understand accountability and education are a must for some of these folk.
I have seen new homes burnt down, floors burnt as fire wood, homes that never have lawns mown.
Never get cleaned or windows smashed replaced.
One day we will not shrink and hide in a corner when the issue some know no better is bought up.
No I do not want another stolen generation, but I do want any child any color to have a chance.
I want better housing for every one who lives in slums.
And I want it soon, but I want it to stay clean tidy and habitable, if that makes me racist?
Tell my nephews and nieces who live in these conditions and face a life no better than their grand parents.
They too dream of a better life.

Cornflower,
Many apologies I didn't have a ready answer and needed some time to think about it.
BtW I am NOT an expert just some one who grew up in both mentalities. Some times I fit neither properly.
The best that I can come up with is that those successful communities is that it is an individual thing i.e. the balance is right.
I am never in favour of the irksome one size fits nobody attitude of generalisation.

Indigenous cultures are in my opinion are finely balanced entities that rely on the tight interrelationship between individuals and the way THE culture works.
As I've said before it is the the 'mass' cultures (MC) that almost mandate emphasis on the individual as opposed to the society. It is also an observation that MC's are unique in that they tend to segment their realities i.e. spiritual, cultural, religion etc. this means they are able to function if one of these elements are non- functioning.
My experience tells me that indigenous cultures seem to work best in small numbers where every individual has a place in the whole.
Small group cultures are a bit like a Rolf Harris painting in which the subject wasn't clear until the last stroke. Take any one away and the whole picture loses focus.

These cultures have controls (taboos) and hidden pressure valves. Remove some elements and you potentially remove the pressure valves, individuals' focus and or controls.
In that context those communities you mention are in balance and therefore work. The issue in my mind is how resilient it is to a key member being removed from the equation due to any number of external influences.

The long house I referred to was because long houses were endemic to the area.
The Adelaide example involved a central courtyard communal cooking area with surrounding bedrooms 8 from memory.

Then again my important point is that each community should have THEIR OWN SOLUTION not some bureaucratic instant sausage machine solution.
The key issue is generalisation is the poison.
Does this help?

Examinator:
"Now given that nature(evolution) devolves(eliminates) unnecessary features why then are there not lessor IQ differences?
what can we draw?
a. Logically then the IQ (smarts etc) are needed/used by the 'primitives'. (their cultures don't inhibit their humanity intelligence empathy etc.)"

I made no reference to IQ or intelligence. You may have believed that this was implied but it wasn't. Furthermore I stated "When there is a large scale attitudinal change within the aboriginal population their situation will rapidly improve". This is inconsistent with any belief in an IQ deficiency.

Examinator:
"Can I humbly suggest that perhaps their culture better suit the circumstances of their natural state"

I aggree with that. That is my point. The problem is that the natural state in which their culture evolved has disappeared. The world has changed around them and it's a case of adapt and move forward with rest of the country i.e. the "mainstream", or wallow around indefinitely going nowhere.

examinator

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I firmly believe that there are lessons to be learned from the successful communities and those lessons can be applied elsewhere. Noel Pearson has talked a lot about this subject and I would not do him justice by attempting to condense what he has said.

It is unreasonable to imagine that government ought sit back and wait to good things to happen, if ever and the taxpayer is rightly demanding improved accountability for expenditure and grants.

Cornflower

Don't have time for a full post. But just wanted to say, I think you have raised some excellent points; there ARE successful communities so why not more?

Ciao

A. Dobrowich,
Fair point I think may have miss the implied point that neither culture can be rated higher that the other.
I debate your double concept that
a. if they want what we go they need to assimilate why?
b. That they're wallowing and going no where...To me they both seem to have overtones of superiority.
We are technologically more advanced but I would argue with some grounds that it is we who could learn from them...
That doesn't imply we should go back to 'stoneage ' hunter gatherers that is unnecessarily simplistic.
But we could learn to stop living the magic pudding syndrome or the 'I'm alright jack and bugger everyone else learned indifference'
Likewise one can't undo the damage mass culture arrogance wreaked but we could borrow in fact exercise their individual importance and individual solutions as opposed the demonstratively failed one size fits no one concept.
Then and only then Do I believe we will live in mutual respect.

Fractelle

Thank you. What is rewarding is to see groups of women stepping forward to represent their needs. Someone has to break the cycle and I am sure that is where the positive advances will come from - the women with the help of some men.

Cornflower

I used to work in Public Housing in Victoria. I mostly assisted immigrants (and junkies, ex-cons), but occasionally encountered Kooris, although they had a separate housing program from everyone else. What I learnt, however, is if you want to get something done, you contact the matriarch of the clan or family, arrange a meeting and talk.

I hope that more women step forward, the Koori women I have known were the foundation for everything, even though they did not necessarily put themselves forward.

That there are successful communities is reason to hope and I agree with Examinator that a 'one-size-fits-all' is not the way to go. The Howard Intervention, whatever it did or did not achieve lacked one essential value - RESPECT.

MaryE “Hello Col. "Aboriginal" is the adjective, "Aboriginee" is the noun. Thank you.”

Yes it is a sad when you see an opportunity to talk down to someone else

But you bungle it with a spelling mistake, MaryE

Either sad

or maybe

retribution for trying too hard to be up yourself

or maybe

just plain old stupid.



Pontificator “Your mental agility and prejudices can be compared to the physical agility of a Dreadnought....20 odd miles to turn around to catch up with the action.... no wonder they're obsolete.”

Hardly, the way I see it, it is you who are being outflanked on all side

But as we are in nautical mode if I would be likened to a “Dreadnought”

You would surely be likened to a garbage barge..

the amount of crap you seem to haul around with you.

“Being that I'm a 'whitey' I think I'm entitled to sling off at us.”

Whatever you claim your origins might be no one has a free pass to “sling off” at me,

(and “whitey” did not even figure in my assessment of your origins, based on your use of English, which reads as if it is not your “mother tongue” but again, there are also a lot of pig ignorant Brits around),



Banjo “So often racism is blamed for things, when it is nothing more than apathy, Yes apathy by us, by governments, bureaucrats and aboriginals and their community leaders.”

Agree but add to that an over developed sense of “righteous entitlement” (for whatever reason).



Regarding the various expert opinions on “suitable housing”,

maybe someone should ask the person who the residence is intended to house.

and if a tent is the solution don’t knock it. Tents have been used as the primary residence for centuries in remote locations around the world.

The grand pontificator “can't undo the damage mass culture arrogance wreaked but we could borrow in fact exercise their individual importance and individual solutions as opposed the demonstratively failed one size fits no one concept.”

Yes, well that is one of the eternal failings of "big government / socialism"

Ah but Col, what you 'conveniently' left out is that I knew I mistyped the word and IMMEDIATELY posted again correcting it. Whereas you Col, continued blissfully on without realising that aboriginal is the adjective and aborigine is the noun. I brought up the fact that you don't even know how to use the words correctly because I often find that people who don't understand or don't wish to understand aboriginal culture, often misuse that word. That betrays a lack of basic education and awareness, and I note Col that it's you who have recently been telling us how intelligent you are, and how much better you are than others here, in various posts on this site. Col, you're not quite as smart as you think, and I guess the arrogance and sarcasm you often display in your posts comes from an inner insecurity. That's ok Col, you're allowed to be like that. But when you get aggressive and start with your whinging about others, then don't complain when someone like me points out your behaviour. Let's now see if you can take it on the chin like a man, or will we have more whinging from our Col? I'm taking bets, anyone wish to lay down their money?

And we have someone on the previous page putting forth the idea of "tents" being a possible solution to aboriginal housing. That says plenty about the person making the ludicrous claim.

The aboriginal population, especially in extremely remote locations where English is the second language, have been caught for hundreds of years between 2 radically different cultures. The perilous position many find themselves in is the result of this. The European cultures that came here had the guns, the laws and the numbers to dominate, and their descendants resent it when they see aboriginal people retaining their culture. They still look down upon aboriginal people, and consider them as little more than savages. They walk the streets of Alice Springs, see the public drunken and violent exchanges among some dysfunctional aboriginal people there , then feel justified that "whitey knows best". They compare the worst of aboriginal people with the best of whiteys, and then feel justified in their assumed superiority. Col would know all about that.

My comments to Col's mental agility were in hindsight inappropriate (badly phrased) and as such I am sorry.

I wasn't so much questioning his acumen but more that the arguments he tends to offer are faded second rate sepia reproductions of a never was "good old days"...days of polished children and wives all obedient subjects. As seen in Saturday afternoon matinee pictures news reels. The ones we endured waiting for the real action.

I do wish my critics were better able to read what I wrote as opposed to misbegotten interpretations they respond too.

Attack what I say by all means but wallowing in some inverse snobbery or pathetic bully boy name calling in lieu of a real Factually (not emotional biased hyperbole) based discussion. If that's their best ...just ignore me... please

Fractelle and Cornflower,
Can either,or both of you put names to any of these 'well managed' aboriginal communities that you speak of.

The only one I know of is a place called (wait for it) Utopia, which is west of Alice Springs and I think is a small grog free out station. Windale, near Newcastle, certainly lowered the incidence of child abuse but I do not know anything more about it.

If you know of those that are well managed then could you send the names to the Minister suggesting that she find how they do it. Or if you list them here I will ensure the minister gets them.

examinator,
You are decades too late in talking philosophies and ideologies. The need for housing is now. We have been constructing aboriginal housing for decades and if the governments do not know what is required by now, they never will.

By all means look to improve things, but the problem now is that the houses are not being built and the funds are sitting there idle. It is beyond time talking stopped and the work started.

Examinator:
"a. if they want what we go(t) they need to assimilate why?"

For better or worse our culture is heavily based around money. To have the material trappings of modernity you need to buy them. To have money you need to work, save, borrow, pay taxes etc. As I understand it, aboriginal culture didn't have the concept of money, savings, loans, taxes etc. If you want the material things you have to have the money. The alternative is either steal them (crime) or have them given to you (handout dependency). If you want to maximise your chance of getting work you need to be educated and gain skills that will be useful in the wider community because this is where practically all the jobs are.

Examinator:
"b. That they're wallowing and going no where...To me they both seem to have overtones of superiority."

The one's that I was referring to about "wallowing and going nowhere" are those in so called "dysfunctional communities" who have had opportunities put in front of them e.g. new houses, market gardens etc. and then proceded to destroy them. With that attitude they are certainly going nowhere. As for superiority, who is superior to whom is a pointless question. Although not a religious person I subscribe to the concept of "all men are created equal". In terms of attitude though, one of pragmatism is superior to one of playing the eternal victim.

You'll find that in many of those dysfunctional, remote communities English is not even the first language, and many of them talk virtually no English whatsoever. This is something that many people in cities and towns don't realise. The fact that some are dysfunctional is not caused by the language barrier. Finding a solution is not 'just' a matter of remote aboriginal people assimilating into white society, because for many that's a complete and total impossibility. They can't just go out and get a job. For these people, ie. the dysfunctional ones, their best hope is to once again become functional within their 'own' communities, and thus change their lives from dependence to self reliance, and to rediscover their heritage and culture that's been so corrupted by the white profiteers and manipulators over the past 200 years. Many city people have never even seen in person, let alone met, an aboriginal person from a remote community. There is no such thing as 'one' aboriginal culture, just as there is no such thing as 'one' white culture. Not all aboriginal people in remote communities are dysfunctional, and many of the functional ones are trying to hold onto their heritage to their credit. That heritage is not at odds with decent health care, housing and education . . . . . remote aboriginal people should not be under any obligation to become like us just because they need decent health care, education/training and housing. Many people in Australian society despise Aboriginal people, unless they are being seen to be making efforts to culturally become just like us.

Banjo

The answer is regrettably that all things are relative and the 'good' communities, while showing for example the benefits of increased safety for the young and families, are more rightly called 'better' and may still have a long way to travel to become fully functional.

From the 4X4 travels we do with others around Oz and that involves getting approval from traditional landholders to go into or cross their land, I would have to say that we have never come across a completely functional indigenous community. But then 'fully functional' doesn't really apply to the good citizens of some of the 'burbs of many cities and towns either. My definition of a completely functional community includes such markers as most children regularly attend school and there is evidence of accountability for and care of assets, eg the new guvvy-donated Landcruiser appearing serviced and cared for.

I cannot see how young mothers and children (or youth generally), can possibly live to enjoy the rights, safety, health and opportunities we take for granted unless they have full freedom of choice. That freedom of choice is denied where they are raised in an environment where it suits others to force idealised or otherwise limited beliefs about their proper 'natural' lives upon them. For example, the lack of basic English literacy and numeracy, or basic understanding of mainstream culture and government, while not seen as 'essential' by older relatives and advocates, hobbles them from the start and discriminates against them in a modern world. Noel Pearson and others know that.

//contd..

//contd..

This might come to you as a surprise, but from what we have seen and others have related to us over the years have led us to firmly believe that regular independent audit can do more to improve things than an army of advocates and counsellors with their snouts in the public trough.

Surely anyone can see that a cost in excess of $2,000,000 per house for a couple of hundred houses is excessive. Yes, that has been the cost! Then there is the very real doubt that those houses will still habitable after five years of trashing by the owners.

We need a Stretton, not a host of advocates to get housing done and we need private enterprise managing the projects with auditors from smaller companies doing the regular checks, with reports published on the Net for public access. Why auditors from smaller companies? Too easy, they are much less likely to take pollies to dinner and nor might they go to bed with them so readily later.

I think cornflower your ideas would work, are the way to go, and MaryE your last post tells it very much as it really is.
I hurt to think of the grubby trashy people white and yes black who feed from the money meant to improve life for so many.
But am heartened that in this thread we have been able to see the truth in print with a minimum of being called racist for being honest.

Cornflower,
I regret too that you are unable to come up with names of some 'well managed' aboriginal communities. From the way you spoke I was of the opinion that you knew of some. Even 'better' would be something to learn from.

However, back to the housing issue. The aboriginal people of the NT were promised 750 new homes and renovations to existing homes at a cost of $672 milion. That in itself seems a very high cost of nearly $1million for each new house. Now the latest revelation is that the number has now dropped to 300 new homes, and as you say that cost is over $2million per house. It seems the money has been eaten up in bureaurocracy.

IT appears the NT government is responsible for this scandalous situation, and Minister Anderson has resigned in protest.

I do not blame her. Her speech is here below.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25930476-5006790,00.html

Her anger, dissappointment and frustation is revealed.

In any other country the people would be rioting in the streets over this and, while I do not advocate violence, there should be protests in Darwin and Canberra.

It seems there should be another NT intervention, to oust the current government and install, at least, some compedent people.

What hope have we got when this type of incompedence is allowed to take place?

No blooy wonder I am cynical of governments and politicians!

Only a week or so ago the PM took time to express his concern about some stupid talkback radio programme.

His time would be far, far better spent being concerned about the 450 new houses in the NT that are not now going to be built and the loss of the hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars that was ment for that project.

Kevin, the homes will not be built and the money is gone. Not one house so far.

Banjo

Maybe I should have been plainer in what I said. It would be unreasonable and divisive for me to nominate a few communities where I reckon they have got it together better than most without making the same comparison with non-indigenous communities. Then there is the usual, 'Which are the worst?' Again, my criteria will be different to others.

However you don't need to give examples to the Hon Jenny Macklin MP because there is a huge pile of reports that already give the necessary information and all she has to do is get a quick run-down from her senior bureaucrats along with a list of what minimum standards of health, education and so on should apply to any sector of the Australian community. For instance, law enforcement is the right of any Australian regardless of where they live, so is a certain standard of education.

I agree with Alison Anderson's sentiments, but what she has not said is that the maladministration and corruption (what else can it be called?) goes from the top right through to the bottom. For example, it wasn't the well-meaning politician who trashed the new $70 000 guvvy Landcruiser that was supposed to be used to be used to fetch supplies and take people to the doctor.

Banjo your point is valid but if you look at cornflowers posts it is clear so are they.
Fact is Aboriginal affairs is fraud on wheels, always has been, sadly likely to be.
Macklyn is of little worth, she always has been and in my view always will be.
She clearly is stunned by the light of public opinion and blind to the fact getting the housing built is not an Aboriginal employment program.
White and blacks, trash at heart bleed cash from such things ,we MUST stop the cargo cult nature of Aboriginal affairs.
We have great leaders in this NT community, they will not be found in its self serving Parliament.
If given a chance from within the Aboriginal community ,with rules and checks, with set targets and accountability we could leave the whole thing to them.

Cornflower,
It is good to know that you think the Federal Ministers office has all the relevant information about differing aboriginal communities. Obviously some do function better than others.

However the seems little evidence that governments have put that info to good use by promoting the actions that are better. It is not just the present government, it seems to go back forever.

To me, it seems the best place to start is from example of the better managed communities and to emulate that management.

That aside, There is no excuse for the present debarcle about the mal-administration of the housing project. Incompedents and corruption has to be eliminated at all levels, starting at the top.

Kids and women are still being abused and nobody wants that to continue.

Banjo

There is a mountain of well-researched reports and the authors are available if the minister and her Departmental head want to sit down and talk about priorities and solutions. Ms Macklin could ask why a house costs $2 000 000 to build, especially when it is probably trashed in a far shorter time than it took to build it.

Has anyone mentioned secondhand shipping containers as a viable option yet? $1500 to 2500 per + trucking and a welder. Ready now, no delay and no supply, trucking, foundation or assembly problems. No need for specialist expertise. Coolness or warmth is subject to placement of the 'blocks'.

http://earthsci.org/education/fieldsk/container/container.html

The boozed relatives are welcome to try their fists on the walls of those and no, they don't burn so easily.

In closing, a dysfunctional system resists change because most of the participants accrue benefit from it remaining so. Governments are easily embarrassed and elections come all too frequently. That is why I suggested taking as much as possible out of the political arena.

Have not had a chance to return to this thread until now. I think Cornflower has summarised the situation very well.

Banjo

You ask white-fellows questions.

You want a neat tidy list of successful communities:

According to whom?

White-fellows? White communities never ever have drunkenness, DV, porn?

Black-fellows? Rarely get a say in how they want their communities - just told to suck it up and live like white-fellows.

Like white communities, some are more successful than others - the big difference is size and location. Failed white communities don't stand out like they do in the isolation of the far north. Failed white families are more or less blended among the more successful.

Solutions. I take Cornflowers point about the current government lead system failing, but do not agree that a completely privatised system would work either. When the basis for service is profit what happens to the priorities of the people stuck in the middle, the indigenous communities?

But some people in the current system must be skimming off a fortune, how to stop the rort? Let the women elders manage the money - that would be a good start.

Fractelle,
The only 'white fella' solution I am looking for, at this time, is government responsibility to ensure that monies promised and allocated go to the purpose it was intended. There is a scandal in relation to this in the NT and it is the aboriginals that are suffering for it. Particularly the women and kids.

It seems much of the funds have been used for other purposes by the NT government. This is disgracefull.

You said. "Banjo

You ask white-fellows questions.

You want a neat tidy list of successful communities:

According to whom?

White-fellows? White communities never ever have drunkenness, DV, porn?

Black-fellows? Rarely get a say in how they want their communities - just told to suck it up and live like white-fellows.

Like white communities, some are more successful than others - the big difference is size and location. Failed white communities don't stand out like they do in the isolation of the far north. Failed white families are more or less blended among the more successful".

It was you and Cornflower that were talking about 'well managed' communities, I was simply asking you to name some. It is you that should define the standard you were referring to. You say that aboriginals 'rarely' get a say in how they want their communities. That is utter rubbish, there are dozens of committees, land councils and so on all over the place that have a big say in what takes place. not to mentioned the failed ATSIC.

Over the years they have failed to come up with solutions, in fact the situation was worsening which resulted in the NT Intervention.

I do not care who comes up with the solutions, but the kids have to be protected, no matter what.

For what it is worth, my long term idea is to make the kids get an Aussie education and things may improve. Things that are traditional can be taught outside of school hours by the parents. The reality is that they have to live in a modern world.

Banjo, apologies... nothing relevant.

Have you seen the movie "Moolaade"?

You gotta see it.

Banjo,
I see where you're coming from but "white communities blended in?"
Been to
Dalas, Broadmeadows ..Melb

Western suburbs ... Sydney,

Elizabeth west ...Adelaide

suburbs in Logan and Ipswich ..Brisbane
Talk to the coal face crisis workers there I think they may disagree with you on that one.

Even my own area has a sub area know to the local police as "Gaza strip".

My point is that what is seen as a success as per Cornflower is relative.

My point was once you start making decisions base on generalisations you commence the journey over metaphorical thin ice.

Your comment about the size of the community is extremely apposite.I added the existence of cultural controls etc.

I don't think indestructible shipping container houses are the answer either...

nor is it a case of giving communities a hand full of money and saying "go for it" or a case of a paternal bureaucracy.

To me it starts with their own self pride.

Might I suggest local apprentices designing, building local homes (local ownership of the problem and the solution).
Not encouraging nepotism, corruption and internal squabbles over cargo etc.

In short each site has a unique solution.

As for your point about wasted money, Keel hauling beneath the surface....in the gibber desert comes to mind the question is who?

Aboriginal Affairs is indeed disaster on wheels...did I suggest keel hauling?
Sack the lot and start again flashes large. This time do it properly with people less concern about their careers and more focused on helping the individuals who need it.A good start would be to understand the cultures, people and their value systems....i.e. work with them not over them.

Anybody want me to explain and solve the middle east and bring world peace? (joke I know what I'm saying has all manner of roadblocks real and imaginary...it's just NOT that simple in practice)
Although keel hauling appeals so long as I'm hauling

Pied Piper,
No, have not seen the movie, will keep an eye out for it.

Media reports this morning about removal of kids at Lightning Ridge. My initial thoughts are Why would anyone work in DOCS? Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

examinator,
Yeah, maybe the Middle East peace would be easier to acheive. Its a bugger on the women and kids though. Lives wasted and opportunities missed. It depresses me.

Am still angry about thse 450 houses that now won't be built.

I saw that story Banjo, lets not leap to conclusions.
Whites live in much the same conditions out there.
The father is white and respected in his community.
The fact he hits his kids may be nothing or every thing, but is not in itself a reason to destroy the family.
DOCS sends green dills to places they will never understand, to judge people they will never understand.
And destroy lives in ways they can not see.
Now I doubt, may be very wrong, that NT rat bag government has misused the cash, or even has it yet.
But yes we should have less talk more walk and stop the weak rubbish, get the homes built make accountability for the care and cleaning them a them law.
But get it done, first step throw my government out, blinded by self interest and in fighting NT needs a chance to vote.

Belly,
I am not leaping to any conclusions.

I saw the story and thought why work for DOCS?

If they remove the kids, there is an outcry.

If some poor kid dies or something happens, there is an outcry that the kid should have been removed.

Seems they can't win whatever they do.

Bit like you, I was part of a large family with father on low wage, but they were loving and we only got smacks if we needed them. They put us first and we never went to bed hungry and were safe in nice, clean and warm beds. No domestic violence either. I am eternally gratefull for all that.

Believe this or not my niece works for the Vic equivalent to Docs and loves it. Interestingly her mum and elder brother and I were all adopted out. I missed meeting them for the first time by two years she died of breast cancer. And he died the year before.( how lucky were they?). I've met my niece and occasionally swap emails. She appears to be nice.

Banjo,
I never cease being disappointed but never surprised by bureaucracies or governments of either persuasions when it come to issues like this...All I and the suffering aboriginals want to know is what we did to deserve such appalling pollies? (given we're supposed to get the pollies we deserve)
Did I mention keelhauling the lot and starting again? groan.

Hey Banjo, I saw the movie Moolaade last night, was very good, about FGM in a Muslim community but really very interesting how the women themselves view it. Honestly worth watching if you don’t mind sub titles. It was on Foxtel World Movies last night so might pop up again if you subscribe.

You are right, no matter which direction DoCS move in they get the blame, Belly is right too because DoCS often choose the wrong direction. Do they have something to do with the housing issue?

I’m catching up… Fractelle said something about if there are some successful communities then whey not more. Now I’m just going to share something I observed in NZ with big Maori families and I guess it could be said for any family group of any race in isolation.

In NZ there were some foster kids I would get and then their cousins would come. Because their families got big and if bad the abuse went through the whole family.

I think some of these communities go bad because they end up being huge extended families that are isolated from others. They end up cult like?

TPP, "I think some of these communities go bad because they end up being huge extended families that are isolated from others. They end up cult like?"

Maybe there is some truth in that in some cases, however from what I have seen it is more likely to be a case of thugs getting their own way for far too long. Closed communities offered a screen to hide what was going on. Over the years we have met hundreds of people who love the outback and are very supportive of indigenous people but I have never met a single one who was not opposed to the permit system to visit or cross Aboriginal land. Closed communities are touted as offering privacy but instead they draw teatree screens behind which bullying and crime are free to flourish undetected.

Yes Cornflower there was at least 2 city communities that I know of that were occupied only by Aborigines and run by an Aboriginal male elder.

Even the police did not enter these communities without permission, and then, never with less than 2 cars of police.

Child abuse and domestic violence were rife in these communities and ran unchecked for years because of 'political correctness' gone mad.

The only other people alowed in these communities were medical staff.
They patched people up and knew very well what was going on but were reluctant to report it because of cries of racism and not being aloowed back into the community to provide healthcare.

Both these communities were eventually closed after some brave residents went to police and finally laid charges.
Closed communities are not the answer.

Banjo,

A few pages back you asked if Fractelle or Cornflower could name any well-managed indigenous communities. I can't make any claims from personal experience, but indigenous people with whom I work seem to think that Hopevale and Laura, both in NQ (or perhaps FNQ) are managed quite nicely.

Otokonoko,
As cornflower said the Ministers office is likely to know of the better managed places, but I will pass the names onto the Minister.

I would like to hear of more places. It sounds like those places could come under the influence of Noel Pearson and that would not surprize me.

He strikes me as a level headed and practical bloke.

Better late than never. Here's a link to an article by Andrew Bolt (who I'm sure plenty here will love to hate). It sums up my position on aboriginal issues:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21816376-25717,00.html

Has anyone seen what goes on around Alice Springs. It is not safe to go out at night, every dark space around town has a troup of indigenous people occupying it. They come out of the hills like a trail of ants, at first light in the mornings. All day they congregate on corners and leaning against walls.
The supermarkets reak of BO. The problem around Alice is out of control.
I did not recognise a particular brand of petrol, so i asked the attendant what it was. I was assured it was normal unleaded petrol just unsnifable.
These people are living without water, power, sewerage,and BO killer.
Your drivers license goes into some sort of card reader before you can buy alcohol.