Yes we benefit from trading with China and without that trade?
But at what cost?
The strange saga of industrial spying, the dreadful support for the army junta in what we once called Burma.
China has a lot to learn about the west, and we do about China.
The silly attempts to stop the Melbourne film festival bringing an invited guest, it is a long list.
But in looking at that list we should not ignore every emerging trading giant in the world wrote its own rules on the way up America and England included.
China has come a long way, lets hope it will come much further but we will not be bored watching that emerging giant.

Dear Belly,

I've just had the frustrating experience of
trying to buy an Australian-made teddy bear
for my nephew and his wife who've had an
addition to their family (a baby girl).
I went to all sorts of department stores,
shops, even boutiques that specialised in teddies.
All the bears were made in China. As a matter of
fact - all children's "soft-toys," are now made in
China - as are quilts, blankets, et cetera.

Gone are the days of "Australian made," products
it seems. A bit sad really. I know, China is
a trading partner - but what's happened to
our "Australian- made," products? Even a souvenir -
item - like a wombat - I almost bought recently
(to send overseas) was made in (you guessed it) -
China! All a bit much - don't you think?

Anyway, on the other side of the coin - we recently
attended a performance of the National Ballet Company
of China, "Raise The Red Lantern," at the State Theatre
here in Melbourne. My husband gave this evening treat
to me as part of a Birthday present. (He doesn't much
care for ballet). What I hadn't realized was that the
Ballet was going to be combined with the Bejing Opera.
And although I don't mind the "cat wailing," as he calls
it, I glanced at him during the performance and he wore
the look that said, "kill me now!." It was a memorable
evening in more ways than one.

The performance was indeed memorable - the sets, costumes,
colour, and dance- was spectacular - but not to everyone's
taste obviously - as the applause was "polite," and somewhat
subdued. Perhaps if they would have performed, a more
traditional ballet like, "Swan Lake," it would have gone
over better. But then it would not have been Chinese!

We have a lot to learn about each other - that's for sure.
Projects like the ballet is a step in the right direction.
For both our countries

I recently participated in a conference looking at the inclusion of Asian studies across the curriculum in high schools. I would love to be able to incorporate Asia - and the rest of the world - in more than the tokenistic way in which it is studied at this point in time. While I was at the conference, though, I got to thinking. Are teachers in China doing the same thing? Are they trying to understand the west? Sure, they have our cultural 'icons' (McDonald's, Coca-Cola, western or western-styled music, etc), but has this simply perpetuated a stereotype rather than a real understanding?

My experience of Asia has been one of disdain. Not my disdain for Asia - I actually quite like the place - but the disdain for westerners experienced in many parts of the continent. To many, we are simply the greedy, selfish, lazy and dishonest people whose unethical behaviour has seen us dominate the world (until now). Our attitude towards Asia is a little different - we commonly view their governments as evil and oppressive regimes, while feeling sorry for the people. But do the people want our sympathy? I remember watching a documentary on the 'economic miracle' in which people from several countries suggested that they were happy to sacrifice some of their freedom for the sake of prosperity.

I think both posters before me have hit the nail on the head - we all have a lot to learn about each other.

This thread is a challenge to me, it also is a challenge to my fellow posters.
Can we look at China from all sides?
Without getting the usual dead end thread stoppers involved?
We, surely most of us, are concerned about Chinas intervention in other country's, its blind support for those products of unwed parents in Burma.
So very many things worry me.
The imprisoning of an Australian of Chinese origin, to me looks like black mail nothing less.
But we, the west imported drugs to China,forced it on them, for trade, we have acted no differently than them.
I foxy have Chinese cloths kitchen ware, a great deal of it.
I shudder at the loss of manufacturing in our country, proud of a two union front to save it.
But long ago understood few support Aussie made I do, but not at twice or three times the price.
Hopefully Romany, sorry if I miss spelled it, even some of her students can tell us about China from within that country, given the rudeness of some it may be unwise.
We must not let xenophobia, or indeed blindness shape our thoughts but yes I have concerns.
I however remember Chile those leaders and there family's crowded into a sports stadium and murdered with American guns, CIA guns maybe held by CIA members?
The horrible murders in Chinas square can never be forgiven or forgotten, but can we remember those dead in south America too?

It amazes me that people assume the Stern Hu case must be dodgy. I'm guessing we think that because their way of handling criminal cases is different to ours, it must be wrong and open to abuse every step of the way.

Heaven forbid, the man might actually be guilty! We seem so keen to denigrate the Chinese judiciary and dismiss it as corrupt, opaque and illogical, the we absolutely refuse to believe that one of our own could actually have indulged in the bad behaviour he is accused of. No, much easier to believe that it's a conspiracy, an act of revenge.

As for China politics-wise, we are going to see a lot of bullying from them in the future. The massive Chinese student rally in Canberra when the Olympic torch visited last year, the pressure on the Melbourne film festival and the National Press Club over the Uighur speaker Ms. Kadeer, the usual threats every time the Dalai Lama visits - these are just the tip of the iceberg.

We shouldn't fall for bullying tactics,
and definitely should maintain our stance
on pushing the human rights issues. That's
a given. But we must also continue to 'talk,'
to each other. It would be to both our detrements
to do otherwise.

Hello Belly, I'm wondering why your question is "But at what cost?" rather than something like "But at what benefit?". It seems to me you're making an assumption and I think the question is based on a false premise. Trading successfully with China does not mean there has to be a "cost". A better question would be "But at what cost, or benefit?" From the way you phrase your first post it seems to me you've already taken a stance, before debate has started, that we will pay a cost for trading with China. You mention China's intervention in Aussie cultural activities, spying and support of a corrupt junta. Gee belly, are you saying that the USA doesn't impact our culture, doesn't spy and has never supported a corrupt junta? We're pretty much slaves to USA culture in this country, but I don't think we'll be slaves to Chinese culture, so you can relax Belly. We'll trade with China, and the trade will only get bigger and bigger but we won't become a nation of Chinamen and Chinawomen. You can relax now Belly, and I hope you get a good night's sleep. There will be no "cost" resulting from our trading with China.

I think that were we not to trade with China
this would have a huge effect on our economy.
China has to be our largest trading partner -
buying in the billions of dollars in exports
from us annually, including commodities such
as coal and iron ore.

As Treasurer Wayne Swan confirms, "Flagging
demand for resources from the Asian Powerhouse
would have a significant impact on Australia's
600 billion dollar economy."

As newspaper editorials point out, "The impact of
the global slowdown is already being felt in
Australia with BHP Billiton and Rio Tinto recently
announcing they will slash thousands of jobs due to
falling commodity prices."

Australia needs to maintain good relations with China,
and of course China needs our exports, especially coal
and iron ore. It's beneficial to both countries to
maintain good relations.

i recently observed a flight of some 270 chinese
deplaning and noticed all the women who comprised half
the passengers were wearing trousers.
i questioned a tour guide who explained trousers were
recommended for travel.
i suspect chinese women would support an equal rights republic.

MaryE that was a very shallow comment.
It appears like so very many you come here to be seen.
Not to see.
My posts here clearly highlight faults .
Past and present, with us, America, England .
Other country's too in regard to Chinas history.
Whistler, unsure why I bother.
Your world seems focused only on females.
To the extent you are blind to reality and any other issues.
You, MaryE, me, other posts of late have given me an idea, for a thread, lets See if it works.
Foxy my level headed friend you are quite right , not to trade with China would hurt us, yet we can never sell our nations right to say what we think for trade.
This mornings read of on line news papers saw me find Andrew Peacock left is job as Foreign Minister after we recognized the Pol Pot regime under pressure from China, the Australian, this morning.
So governments ,all sides ,do trade using our country's good name because of trade.

Hello Belly, my post was based on the fact that your initial query regarding China "But at what cost?" is based on a flase premise. You replied with personal insults. So be it. I'll stay on topic however.

There doesn't have to be any "cost" for trading with China. We can maintain 100% of our sovreignity whilst doing a rip roaring trade with China. We can maintain 100% of our overall identity whilst taking advantage of trade with China. Thank you Belly.

So where can I buy "made in Australia?" China needs to "be very careful" in what they export. One is tired of stoves conking out, clothes and house linen going shabby after one wash, people dying from purchasing divans which outgas lethal chemicals, babies becoming ill from milk formulas, the hides of animals, subjected to to the most egregious slaughter, "fresh" produce unfit for human consumption etc.

Why have we become a throw away society and pushovers for Chinese junk? Doesn't quality count anymore?

Ah.... stop ya sookin' Proto - "It's the economy stoopid!"

females are not reality Belly?
if chinese women support a women's legislature
half the battle's won.
the other half's a fait accompli.

Belly
I agree with you! We should be very carefull with China! They violate human rights, they violate basic democratic values, they opress chinese people!
My good friend we sold our seoul to evil long time ego! our leaders does not care at all for human rights, for democracy or for our long term interests.
We have problems Belly, we have lost our direction, our compass we are going to NOWHERE, CHEAP, IRRISPONSIBLE POLITICIANS WORLDWIDE, CARE ONLY FOR TEMPORARY BENEFITS AND DOES NOT CARE AT ALL FOR OUR BASIC VALUES, FOR OUR DEMOCRATIC VALUES, FOR WESTERN CIVILIZATION!
We lost my friend, we lost, the moneyees, the corporatiopns, the Murdochs have bought or control everything in western countries, for them China is a big market, a big producer of Cheap products, for them CHINA MEANS BIG PROFITS AND THEY CARE ONLY FOR THE PROFITS and we are weak and IDIOTS as usualy!
For me China is a big threat for our civilization, a big threat for human values, but WE LOST SIR, WE LOST!
As political parties break their connections with the citizens, as the parties depend more and more from corporations and mass media, as we, the citizens are ready to sell our seoul to evil for more money, for better carieer, the HOPE FOR A BETTER WORLD, THE HOPE FOR A BETTER FUTURE IS LIMITED!
China is wining the war, westerns are losing and are losing because we are governed from immature politicians because big corporations and mass media control our system!
There are not many human rights DEFENDERS in this country, there are not many human rights DEFENDERS in our WORLD!
HYPOCRITIES AND DISHONEST PEOPLE AMBUSHED THE CARAVAN OF OUR CIVILIZATION!
EVIVA THE RESISTANCE TO AUTHORITARIAN REGIMS AND BIG CORPORATIONS!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Well it seems we are not going to get involved in talking about world trade, China and its future its plans a lot more.
In fact if not world trade what do we have?
I wonder what others think, if we forgot wealth and targeted a better world would every one?
We need Chinas trade, rubbish or not people buy what they sell us, once the rubbish was said to come from Japan.
AS raises fears near xenophobia,but be honest bloke, the world is getting better.
Yes we have problems, yes international finance is a concern, but give me another way we can exist .
Whistler in a country that has a woman second from the very top job, you see only womens issues, blindly so.
Can you understand Chinese women are at the least not likely to want what you want for them?
Look at problems your sex faces in middle eastern country's, find a way to help them, you will win my admiration but unfocused posts?

Defend online freedom of expression in China
Amnesty International is concerned that Chinese Internet service providing companies, including Baidu, Sina and Sohu, are complying with Chinese government requests and demands to censor content online and otherwise repress the rights to freedom of expression and privacy. Call on these companies to ensure the Internet fulfills its potential to empower and educate and to create global communities.

Take action
http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/siteapps/advocacy/index.aspx?c=jhKPIXPCIoE&b=2590179&template=x.ascx&action=10386
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

As a member of Amnesty International, I am writing to express my deep concern over the blatant violation of the rights of Internet users in the People’s Republic of China to information, privacy and freedom of expression. Access to and the use of the Internet is highly restricted and at least 50 people are imprisoned for peacefully exercising their right to freedom of opinion and expression in China. According to Amnesty International, numerous websites were closed down.

The Internet is a global space where people from all over the world can come together to freely exchange information and share ideas. It has the potential to empower and educate and to create global communities. The effective protection and enjoyment of other human rights depends upon the enjoyment of the right to freedom of expression.

All Internet service providers must ensure that the rights of Internet users to information, privacy and freedom of expression are protected and upheld. Internet service providers must increase transparency and disclose all policies to users that would result in blocking access to information or providing governments with user information. Government demands for limitations of freedom of expression or privacy must be met by Internet service providers with a request for the legal basis for such an action. Finally, when government-sanctioned restrictions are inconsistent with international human rights standards, Internet service providers have a social responsibility to challenge those restrictions in domestic courts.

The Internet must be maintained as a positive force for the free exchange of information and ideas, not as a tool to curtail basic and inherent human rights. Internet service providers worldwide can no longer ignore their responsibility to protect and advance rights to freedom of expression and privacy. I trust you will assume your undeniable responsibility as an Internet service provider to ensure that the rights of Internet users are protected and upheld no matter the demands of a government acting to undermine international human rights standards.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Belly my sex is male [ http://2mf.net/philip.htm ] and my primary
concern is equal rights.
i consider that if women and men achieve equal rights all groups comprised of
women and men will achieve equal rights.
moreover, Australia's constitution currently provides for men's legislatures only.
i expect Australia will take the lead in global trade by including
the first women's legislature of the modern era in a republic,
with trade conducted by agreement between women's and men's legislatures and committees.
i further expect that any nation trading with Australia will be required to
submit to equal rights, and as i posted earlier, from anecdotal evidence i see
no problem for this with China.
neither do i expect much resistance will occur in the Islamic world and cite
the recent protests from women in Iran to the rule of the mullahs as evidence.

Dear Antonios,

I just want to make you aware that -
if you're going to quote word for word -
from Amnesty International,USA - (or any one else)
- you have to give credit to their website, and
not present it as your own.

Just thought you should know.

whistler
uuuuuhhhhuuuu!
"my primary concern is equal rights. " THEN why do you stick on the defferences between men and women and not on the commons between them WITH FULL respect to all humans independend on their sex, age, race, religious, language, economic or professional status, or culture?
Why do you divide humans instead to bring them closer?
Do not you know that there are diferences NOT ONLY between men and women but also between young and old, between educated and non educated between rich and poor etc.
Do you suggest to create an endless line of human divisions?
It is very different promoting women's rights from promoting the differences beetwen men and women.
Our goal should be how to make people happy, how to make them to understand and respect each other, HOW TO MAKE EACH HUMAN TO BE HIM/HER SELF.
While I try to promote the commons between humans simultaneously I defend and promote the individuality and integrity of each human without any kind of bariers or discrimination.
Promoting the differences between men and women we we divide them and and we damage the relations between them!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Foxy
As you can see I send two posts for international Amnesty USA, I had them for one post but I had problem with word limits and I divided them in two posts.
I did not put the same link again in the second post because already I had the link in the first one.
I do not promote it as mine, every one can follow the link above and read it on the Amnesty International USA's web site.
What realy I do is to promote their activities and ideas and NOT TO CLOSE MY EYES FOR VARIOUS REASONS. I try to be honest and fair, without tricks and tips and other cheap or dirty things.
BOTH OF MY POSTS ABOUT AMNESTY ARE NOT MINE AND VERY EASY EVERY ONE CAN FIND IT FOLLOWING THE LINK FROM MY POST!
I am not so stupid!
Simple Amnesty international gives a battle for human rights in China and I FULLY AGREE WITH THEM AND SUPPORT THEM AND PROMOTE THEIR IDEAS AND ACTIVITIES!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Amnesty Int. is a marvelous organisation with a long history of standing up for basic human rights. In China's case, I think more can actually be achieved not through human rights organisations, although they certainly have their important place, but instead through inclusive national foreign affairs policies from 1st world places like the USA, UK, Europe, Australia etc. By INCLUDING China with trade, culture, communications etc it will grow to not fear us, and there will be lesser motivation for China to control it's population. Eventually China will fully realise it's better for all concerned to be a fully functioning member of the world community. China is already heading in that direction. It's human rights situation is much better than it was 30 years ago, although it still has a very long way to go in that regard. Despite it's recent communist history, China has now developed into a powerhouse of capitalism, and if that's not evidence that China can change, then nothing is. I think China will continue to change as long as it is encouraged to be a fully functioning part of the world community. That's the best and quickest way to help with human rights in China. Excluding China is just a return to the dark old days of the cold war mentality and iron curtain type of approach.

Protagoras,
I try to buy 'Australian Made' wherever possible, but it is getting more and more difficult. One has to use reading glasses in the supermarket. I now note that seafood is marked whether Aussie or not, but do not know about fresh meat, perhaps 'rehctub' would like to comment as to any imported fresh meat.

My experience is that chinese steel is absolute rubbish, so I avoid that like the plague.

I wear mostly R M Williams and now notice they are or are to be made overseas, so am going to have to watch that. Fortunately they are quality and do not have to buy often.

I rely on the younger family to advise on the quality of electrics.

The chinese have some unusual culinary tastes, but that is their business. Just do not want somethings introduced here.

Foxy
Thank you! You gave me the opportunity to speak about the violation of human rights in china.
If Foxy the text was mine it will not be important, from a bastard migrant BUT this text is from Amnesty International USA, the strongest branch of Amnesty International world wide, this text is signed from thousands of people, and it says some BIG truths about the violation of human rights in china as "the blatant violation of the rights of Internet users in the People’s Republic of China to information, privacy and freedom of expression",
I ONLY signed the text, and I send it as mine to China with the advices and support of Amnesty International USA.

Human Rights in PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
Amnesty International
Only from the first of july 2009 China violated human rights in the following cases
China: Free Sichuan earthquake activists | Amnesty International 11 August 2009
China Sichuan earthquake activists to be tried | Amnesty ...4 August 2009
China: Free human rights defender Huang Qi
31 July 2009
China: Human rights lawyer detained, tortured: Wang Yonghang 28 July 2009
China: Open letter: Amnesty International comments on the draft ...28 July 2009
China: Human rights lawyers disbarred | Amnesty International 15 July 2009
China: Authorities widen crackdown after Xinjiang riots | Amnesty ...10 July 2009
China must investigate 156 deaths during protests in Urumqi ...7 July 2009
China: Fair and impartial investigation must be launched in Urumqi ...6 July 2009
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/china
I agree we should close our eyes a little bit BUT NOT TO BECOME BLIND!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

MaryE
Capitalism does not mean necessary respect to human rights and democratic values.
Fasism and Nazism was capitalism but they violated agressevly the human rights and democratic values.
China opened the door to big International corporations but did not recognize chinese worker's rights to create their independed trade unions, does not respect their basic human or civil rights.
The corporations have found big opportunities for HUGE profits in china but it does not mean Chinese authorities respect basic human rights or basic democratic rights.
It simple proves one more time that big corporations do not care at all for human rights or democracy BUT ONLY FOR THEIR OWN BENEFITS, FOR THEIR PROFITS ONLY!. It is not the first time the big corporations underestimated or violate basic human rights, THEY DID VERY BIG PROFITS IN HITLER'S GERMANY OR MUSOLINI'S ITALY!
MaryE We will not return back we will press China and big corporations to respect human rights in any part of the world!
Do not you know that the corporations who speak for human rights and democracy here the same corporations violate basic human rights in undeveloped countries?
Do not you know that corporations are ready to do everything to increase their profits?
Do not you know that corporations created the financial crisis, the environment problems or close their eyes to human rights and democracy TO PROMOTE THEIR INTERESTS, TO INCREASE THEIR PROFITS?
Do not you know that corporations control our political parties covering their huge costs of political campaigns etc with their big donations?
Do not you know that we , the citizens have limited power on political parties, on our governments?
CHINA IS AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIM AND WE THE CITIZENS WORLDWIDE STAND BY CHINESE PEOPLE, BY OUR CHINESE BROTHERS WHO FIGHT UNDER DIFFICULT CONDITIONS FOR THEIR BASIC RIGHTS.
From one side we invaded to iraq to bring the democracy and from the other we support non democratic, authoritarian regims.
Are we all blind, hypocrities or dishonest. How can we expect other people to understand and respect us?
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios,

My apologies - I missed seeing the link you
posted to Amnesty International in your earlier
post. And, as you know, I've been a member for
quite a few years - and support their work.

AnSymeonakis, collective bargaining is inclusive not divisive, individuals are empowered not diminished.
collective bargaining between primary interest groups is embedded in Australia's Constitution
with the Senate and the House of Representatives.
where i live women and men have replaced the Commonwealth and States
as primary stakeholders with powers of review.

Hello Antonios, you seem to have misunderstood what I wrote in my last post here. I wrote that by being inclusive, not exclusive, with China in areas like trade, culture and communication we will have the best chance of influencing human rights within that country. I certainly didn't write that capitalism in China will solve the human rights issues there; I mentioned capitalism as an example of how China is capable of change; they've gone from a strictly rigid Communist system to a system that has emphatically embraced many aspects of capitalism. My point was if they can make such a major change in that area, then they can make changes in other areas. Capitalism has nothing to do with human rights, just as any "ism" has nothing to do with human rights. If we INCLUDE China as a fully functioning member within the world community, we will have the best chance of influencing change regarding human rights within China. You don't change people by excluding them, you change people by including them, by communicating with them, by exchanging with them. That's what we should be doing with China, and we're doing that more and more every day. And by doing that, the door will become more open for human rights organizations to penetrate the human rights wall within China. Thank you.

MaryE
"by communicating with them"
The problem is that we can not comunicate with chinese people, as the regim blocks them to have contact with the rest of the world.
We press the chinese authorities to open the internet to chinese people, to allow them to comunicate with the rest of the world.
"My point was if they can make such a major change in that area, then they can make changes in other areas" This major changes was from the comunist system not from the people, they do not playied any important role in all these changes, simple some of them grabed the opportunity to build their private businesses.
Chinese people does not have any political power to press for changes in their society, they have no connection with the decision making centres.
In realy the current political system in China is called comunism but it is very close with the fasist system, instead of falangites we have the communists who speak in the name of the chinese working class but who have no connection with chinese workers.
We have a transformation of the communist regime where the properties, fabrics etc belong to the state in the name of the working class in an other system where it is allowed and encouraged the private properties and private businesses but not allowed to chinese workers to create their own independend trade unions or their own political organizations. VERY BIG SIMILARITIES WITH FASISTS!
Do you understand it MaryE? This does not allow us to have any hope for democracy and respect to human rights.
We, democrats, human rights activists do not have any other chance than to fight, to press chinese authoroties to respect human rights and basic democratic values.
CORPORATIONS SPEAK FOR CHINESE AUTHORITIES WE SPEAK FOR CHINESE PEOPLE!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Belly
You have right about china but also we must be very carefull with India and Indonesian too. Billions of people and very close to us and we know they will have big problems in the future of cause their HUGE population and food sortage!
Chinese authorities know that they do not have plenty time before their system colapse and they have sent Han Chinese, violating basic minority's rights, to change the synthesis of population in areas where the minorities are majorities as in Thibet or in Xinjiang with Uighurs.
The resistance of minorities in Thibet or in Xinjiang will grow up as chinese authorities will try to convert them to small minorities.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide