Lovely to see you around Belly, I wish I could stop these irrational thoughts that a user is dead soon as they disappear for awhile.

Belly on all practical levels of course you should be concerned about numbers. But what appears over and over is a concern from people about quality not quantity. And the answer to the question of quantity always seems a bit miserly.

Why not a country a hundred million strong?

I wouldn’t suggest dropping fences but probably placing some decent gates in them. More education on entry maybe. Even there I don’t know what I am talking about – I don’t know how Aussie introduces its refuges to the country or what it has in place as a means of introduction to Australian culture and law.

Maybe less faith in government and more faith in your country is required. You gasped didn't you.[smile]

Good luck with getting rid of religion, new ones are still popping up and I am guessing the old ones continue to be revised.

Antonios, goodness sakes, I was a bit slow on the uptake. The e-mail I am using is jewelypiper@gmail.com

Interesting report in the media quoting Dr Khalid Koser from the Geneva Centre for Security Policy, who has been looking at the impact of the economic crisis on asylum seekers and migration, and believes it has contributed to the recent spike in unauthorised boat arrivals to Australia.

Dr Kozer went on to say that 'rising unemployment in South-East Asia had seen a rise in the number of ``desperate'' people willing to make the journey to Australia'.

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25782114-948,00.html

In another report, this time in The Australian, Dr Kozer said that people smuggling was a sideline of legitimate travel businesses in Kabul and Peshawar, Pakistan - two of the principal sources of Australia-bound asylum-seekers and was dominated by 10 to 20 smugglers who offered a money back guarantee on arrival in Australia.

He added that 'there were significant financial incentives for refugees to use people-smugglers to travel to the West, with refugees able to double their family's household income within a few years.' Sounds like the refugees are interested and aware before travel of their likely prospects in 'host' countries. Only to be expected of course.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,25784292-25837,00.html

Always good to get some independent opinion, especially from a world renowned expert who is in Australia to brief government.

“That's a brilliant effort at ‘reasonable discussion’, Ludwig”

Firstly CJ, I was just saying what needed to be said to you and what was long overdue. You’ve driven me to make those strong comments. I was reluctant to do so…for a long time.

Secondly, yes it was a solid and forthright attempt to engender some reasonable discussion with you on this thread.

“This thread has been no more a ‘reasonable debate’ than is a shock jock talkback radio program.”

So, if it is of that low a quality, what are you doing on it then, posting at great frequency?? It could be a better debate if you picked up your standard!

“And ‘hundreds of posters’? You do get carried away sometimes...”

Yep, you’re probably right. It would have to be at least 200 posters to constitute ‘hundreds’. It probably hasn’t yet exceeded 199, but it must be close! /:>)

“I don't know why it is that you think it's justifiable to imprison people for the 'crime' of lawfully seeking asylum in Australia, thereby invariably exacerbating the suffering that they endure.”

Firstly, ‘imprison’ and ‘crime’ are emotive and highly inappropriate words as you use them here.

Secondly, if you don’t know why I am against the free movement of asylum seekers in Australian society and therefore in favour of detention, and why there absolutely needs to be a strong deterrence factor and therefore an unfortunate but necessary balance between the good treatment of asylum seekers and upholding the deterrence factor, then I’ll have to give up on you.

This is the exact stuff that I’ve gone to much trouble too explain, in dozens of posts on numerous threads on this forum over the last three years, often in debate with you!!

Master - I’ve always understood that naiveté, combined with vanity was indistinguishable from stupidity hence the axis of stupidity that you (who MUST be obeyed)personify.

The following, 2009 published articles, are a good indicator why Australia should only accept persecuted asylum seekers for now.

These reasons will not be well understood by those too “stupid” to see a correlation between the state of Australia’s environment, population increases, chronic mismanagement and corruption.

And Master, incoherent raves by growth merchants, feigning compassion, are so very passé:

1 Kalgang River closed - contaminated with the human norovirus (faecal matter.)

2. Industrial plume has now reached the Helena River in WA, leaking cancer causing trichlorethene into river.

3 Court fined Boral $81,500 for flushing more than 6,000 litres of industrial chemical into Parramatta River.

4. 35,000 litres of sewage spilt into a Bendigo creek during June

5. The Sydney harbour's sediments remain among the most polluted in the world. The main culprits are heavy metals and chemicals such as pesticides, and much of the pollution is concentrated in hot spots such as Iron Cove, Neutral Bay and Rushcutters Bay but the harbour's seaweed has the highest known levels of copper, lead and zinc, which can kill aquatic animals.

Warnings continue for those silly enough to eat cancer-causing dioxin loaded fish from the Harbour.

6. Victoria’s Gippsland rivers - record high herbicide levels

7. Lower Murray acidity – “worst in the world.”

8. Toxic pesticides found in Tasmanian water catchments

9. Murray River blue green algae spread another 400 kms in S/W NSW.

10. South Australian government fighting to save Lake Alexandrina

11 THE Swan and Canning rivers are polluted with toxic levels of cancer-causing heavy metals, pesticides and hydrocarbons. Poisons including zinc, lead, copper, mercury and dieldrin were found to exceed guidelines at seven sites across Perth. Vehicle exhaust emissions are flowing into the estuary through stormwater drains.

12 Doctors in the Blue Mountains town of Lithgow have signed a letter to the local council raising concern about the safety of its water.

13 Christie’s Beach contaminated with human faeces

Word count limit!

Morgan Deconstructed:

1)“your personal obsession about 'boat people’ leads you to engage in much of the same baseless and
paranoid conjecture that our resident bigots do"
--- [ here Morgan puts on his psychoanalytical hat] In Morgan-talk, someone is --obsessed --
if they don’t let him get away with his little lies. Note, if you do some quick stats on the thread, you will find that Morgan has posted as often if not more often than anyone else, yet, they are ‘obsessed’ – while he is not!

2) "I've ... made my position perfectly clear... I disagree with your conclusion that treating
humanely asylum seekers who arrive in Australia by boat will inevitably lead to many more coming
for that reason"
---[ here, Morgan puts his dunces cap back on] -"Humanely" means free board and keep – FOR
AS LONG AS IT TAKES -- while the asylum seeker, appeals, and re-appeals, and then if found against,just decides to squat –all at public expense! And of course, there are no grounds to think this might encourage more to give it a go! ( PS Morgan also believes in flying pigs!).
“Former Immigration Minister Gerry Hand was a member of the ALP left and proud to known as a
bleeding heart…was moved to fury by the unscrupulousness of some immigration lawyers who
advised their clients to plead refugee status … delay each stage of their application to almost
the last legally -permitted day , and then agitate ...( that ) the government had ‘taken too
long’ over their case” –Overloading Australia - O’Connor & Lines.
Morgan’s generosity is no where more militant as when others are footing the bill.If you want
to test Morgan’s real humane heart, note how he responds to other poster’s who disagree with
him. Or better still, ask him if you can borrow his comic books –you will see a side of Morgan
that is far less caring and sharing.

Morgan Deconstructed (Continued):

3) “I base my conclusion on such evidence as is available”
---[ now, he has his Jokers hat on!] Yes, we saw one such piece of ‘evidence’ -- the shonky
survey!

4) "while yours (like that of the bigots) is a product of a confabulation of worst-case suppositions”
---This part is where the KISS translator proves invaluable –what he is saying is: HMAS Oz is unsinkable [ here he’s wearing the Captain of the Titanic’s thinking cap].

5)“I don't know why it is that you think it's justifiable to imprison people for the 'crime' of
lawfully seeking asylum in Australia, thereby invariably exacerbating the suffering that they
endure.
---[now he is wearing his Fairy God Mothers hat ] note "the suffering they endure"
In Morgan’s mind this is about him rescuing Cinderella –granting wishes – those who oppose him are the ugly step
sisters.

6) “That's one of the reasons that I think you must be misanthropic in disposition - combined, of
course, with what I've gleaned from your posts over the years.”
---[ again, his Psychoanalytical hat ]

7) “No offence intended, but I think you're morally and legally wrong about 'boat people', and no
argument you've yet put has altered that assessment.”
--- Now trying to sound like a diplomat [he’s wearing Rudd’s old ambassadors cap ].