The expose last night by Today Tonight on Channel 7 regarding the much cheaper prices paid for "Aussie Made" grocery items by New Zealand consumers, as compared to the prices that we here in Australia pay for the same "Aussie Made" grocery items, presents undisputable proof that we the gullible consumers are being ripped-off by our major retailers by exercising our "assumed" loyalty of buying "Aussie Made".

Some of these grocery items were around 50% cheaper, after being shipped to New Zealand and adjusted for the difference in the dollar.

This report is based only on grocery items, so one could ask how a similar comparison in pricing works out in relation to Meat, Fruit and Vegetable pricing?

There is no doubt that we the consumers here are being taken for a ride by our producers, wholesalers, retailers and Governments who turn a blind eye to it all, whilst we are constantly being encouraged to buy only "Aussie Made" produce!

We need some long overdue honesty from both the Food Marketing organizations and Government to stop this commodity pricing spiral, which is totally unnecessary and simply puts more profit into their pockets at the expense of the gullible public.

Let us have a long overdue Royal Commission into food pricing, or at least a Senate Select Commitee investigation into this predatory pricing "industry" before we the consumers all go broke?

Anyone wanting fine detail on this subject can go to the "Today Tonight" website and check last night`s report.

There is a simple answer to this. Boycott Coles and Woolies until they get the message. I can do shopping at sensibly priced groceries and fish/meat shops. The quality of veggies at both Coles and Woolies near me is generally awful.

We are dealing with logistics companies - the product happens to be food and household stuff.

BOYCOTT!!

Hey Crackup, I wish something would be done. I was really shocked at how expensive food was here after moving from NZ. I sort of grew up where Kiwi’s came to Aussie for shopping holidays, no wonder that stopped – everything is more expensive.

Even little things like in NZ you buy a personalized number plate for your car and that is the end of it, here in NSW you have to pay every year to retain it.

Insurance is more expensive so I have kept my Life Insurance in NZ rather than paying for one here. Public transport in NZ is cheaper as well. Clothes seem a similar price.

I guess your pensions are so much larger in Aussie compared to across the ditch to make up for how expensive it is to live here?

ThePiedPiper:

One important fact that I omitted to mention in regard to this subject of food pricing comparisons, ( simply because most of the community are just a touch parochial about the comparison with other countries ), is that the majority of foodstuffs, fruit and vegetables that are produced in New Zealand ARE of a much higher quality than the local Aussie product!

I know that this is a hard pill for the Australian consumers to swallow, but unforunately it is fact, that anyone who has spent time there will acknowledge to be true!

This "quality" fact then is ever the more reason why Aussies should be paying even less at the check-out than their Kiwi counterpart!

So a question. If Coles and Woolies are doing the ripping off,
why does it not show in their Annual General Reports as extra
profits? Last time I checked, Coles earned around 2.5c in the
Dollar as profit, Woolies around 4c-5c.

The problem always comes back to costs all along the chain.
Rents, electricity, wages, payroll tax, superannuation, holiday
leave loading, overtime, workers comp, etc, all have to be paid for,
to everyone from the checkout chicks, the cleaners, the shelf
stackers, the truckies, security guards, etc. Its a long list.

It sounds like all these costs are much higher then in NZ, where
many don't apply.

Nope, C'&W' are a duopoly, and ripping us off, forget the clever accounting. Look at any meat or vegetable product, at the farm-gate the returns are minimal, and the time twixt gate and shelf accounts for less than 10% of the retail price, if that. The mark-up happens once the chains get their hands on it, and we all pay.
Break up the chains, introduce REAL competition, the prices will fall.
The Yanks did it, with their Anti-trust Laws years ago, why is impossible here?

I have heard that the reason for the quality of veggies in the C&W duopoly being so ordinary is because they store them in cool rooms for an extended period of time. By having such large supply chains, not only is the handling cost doubled/tripled/quadrupled etc, but the profit motive of all links in the chain means that they don't throw anything out in order to make up for inefficiencies in their transport and storage logistics. This leads to lower quality produce.

Another indirect way C&W have a negative impact is to elbow out, outlast, buy out or undercut the smaller operators because of their size.

We should get smart and create more market gardens in and around our major cities. This will do a number of things: reduce the need for transportation of food, minimise the links in the chain and make it more efficient, get produce to market faster/fresher and enable smaller operators to be more competitive and abundant. This would be a much healthier situation for the whole country and industry.

The reason why NZ is doing better than us is because their primary producing industries are more sustainable than ours. Wakey, wakey Australia. It's time we got a whole lot smarter. It's probably time for a crisis too seeing as though crises seem to go before every major improvement in society.

High grocery prices in Australia? What rot!

You guys need to go back 50 years or so. You'd see that grocery prices were TWICE what we now pay (taking inflation into consideration). Go back to the 1930's and '40's - - - FOUR times as much.

We get it easy, really easy, in modern times in Australia. Ok, so things can sometimes be a bit cheaper in NZ, so what! Their overall wages are lower, which evens things out. Things are cheaper still in Thailand, so what! Their wages are lower, which evens things out. Stuff is even cheaper again in China, so what! Their wages are even lower still, which evens things out.

Our Aussie grocery prices are LOW, LOW, LOW. We have life delivered to us on a platter, yet still we're a nation of pampered whingers (some of us at least).

* forget the clever accounting*

So is that what it is eh Maxi. The shareholders would love to
know in that case, if there is money vanishing. Being public
companies, the managers would be in front of the ACCC and possibly
jail, really quickly! Tell us where it goes please.

Yup, margins are higher on meat and veggies, then on canned stuff
etc, as so much stuff is thrown out, out of date expired,
etc. That does not change the overall margin, for some products
are loss leaders, when on special.

Have you watched the public pick through those boxes of
veggies? Any little blemish and nobody wants it. Crazy stuff.

Master,

I don't know where you live but in the Hills in Perth I can pay between $12.99 and $8.99 a kilo for Red Capsicums. I do not need to tell you but its Coles and Woolies (in Mundaring to be exact) that have the higher price. Mundaring Woolies has the highest prices in the Perth Metro area - we know this from personal surveys.

I also have feedback from the UK, Germany France and Holland - the local prices ARE higher!

Been to a supermarket lately, Master?

Even the most basic of veggies, the humble spud, is $2-3/kg. Same with onions. A small bunch of parsley, $2.

Now, I can't remember what the prices were for these items 25 years ago, but I'll take a stab and say 29c/kg for spuds. That's 6-7 times as much today. There's no way my wage has gone up that much in that time.

Care to reconsider?

"Have you watched the public pick through those boxes of
veggies? Any little blemish and nobody wants it. Crazy stuff."

My parents emigrated to Australia from western Europe after the war and they have always made the most of all the food they have (ie put all ingredients into stews so that nothing's lost, anything on fruit trees that isn't eaten fresh is put into the pot to make jams and bottled) so I see the merit in this comment.

It begs the question: why aren't supermarkets setting up commercial links to on-sell those brusied bananas and apples to make other types of food (eg breads and cakes etc). As long as the fruit and veg haven't gone off, apart from the aesthetic "yuk" factor, what's the matter with recycling the product? It's just another example of waste in society which indirectly results in higher prices.

“The problem always comes back to costs all along the chain.
Rents, electricity, wages, payroll tax, superannuation, holiday
leave loading, overtime, workers comp, etc, all have to be paid for,
to everyone from the checkout chicks, the cleaners, the shelf
stackers, the truckies, security guards, etc. Its a long list.
It sounds like all these costs are much higher then in NZ, where
many don't apply.”

That’s right Yabby NZ doesn’t have electricity and everybody is on the dole, nobody cleans and we have no thieves. We collect our food straight from the farms and haven’t invented shelves yet.

I did notice Crackup that Aldi (which is really cheap) has all its frozen veges from NZ.

I also notice this has turned to “back when” and “further overseas” which I didn’t think was really your argument C. I mean food prices in the Arabian dessert were a bit harsh but I didn’t think that was your point…? I understood it didn’t make sense that NZ is paying less for the same product?

The Pied Piper:

The point that I was trying to make was, ( and you and I can see it, but others cannot, or do not want to!) that we are being screwed in no uncertain manner and I suspect that anyone who argues against that is either "one of them" or has a vested interest in maintaining the continuation of this obscene rip-off!

Any idiot can throw around a few figures, stating how things were so expensive during the 40`s and 50`s etc , but I lived and shopped through those times and as far as I am concerned I would gladly return to those times where we had much less crime, more value in life and much higher moral standards of decency!

We have watched a rich, happy and prosperous country gradually financially raped and pillaged by the vested interest groups, whose loyalty to this country ends at the Stockmarket benches!

These people have one simple aim in life "Get Rich Quick" regardless of who gets trampled in the process, and look at what they and their croneys have created for the world of today,....poverty, financial uncertainty and a very shaky future for billions of people around the world!....Strangely enough these perpetratorse seem to sleep well at night, but then if you have no moral conscience or feelings for those less fortunate than yourself, then you probably will do!

We always seem to get the knee jerk reaction and the emotive "rip off" when a large company such as Woolworths is seen to have a higher price than else where. Maybe they are overcharging, I don't know, but it would be interesting to get some indisputable facts here. In the meantime perhaps the dissatisfied amongst the contributors here might think about shopping elsewhere. In spite of what is said about duopolies, there is competition out there, but supermarkets make it convenient to shop under one roof. Actually, I would like to see them sell pharmeceuticals because the lack of competition in that area is
aided and abetted by legislation.
I rarely buy meat at a supermarket because I can get better quality and price elsewhere and as already stated, the public are over-fussy over fruit and veg with any blemish discarded so the waste must be horrific. I did write to Woolies about this and was assured that where possible it was not thrown away. It was either donated elsewhere or composted.

We don't complain as a country when we manage to get high prices for our mineral wealth sold overseas. Are we ripping off the Chinese ?

I often wonder about those that complain about profits. Would they not try and get the best trade-in deal for something, or price for a house they were selling ? And then not boast about the figure they managed to get.

Lastly all companies are obliged by their share holders as owners, to make money for them, which is probably where most of you have your superannuation anyway. We all like to see that rise don't we ?

Yabby, I find it hard to believe your tripe is sheer ignorance, playing provocateur are we?
The clever accounting is in their declared profit, so beloved of your ilk, not the true figures. Do you see anywhere in the published figures the total cost of management, including all the bonuses and lurks? No.
Do you see anywhere in those figures the profits made by subsidiary companies, transport, storage etc? No. Do you see anywhere the costs to all the companies in the group of transfer-pricing, and the spin-offs to executives for handling it all? Not one word.
That’s the clever bit, they way they spin it around and play the old shell game with it.
If your willing to believe those executives, who ARE the company, are totally honest, play no games with the figures, don’t tip millions into their own and a select few other pockets, then I’ve got a bridge you really need to see, she’s a beaut, going for a song too!

Snake, is it really competition when you have a pair of killer-whales prowling about, destroying the small business whenever and where-ever they choose, leaving only the scraps for those that survive, or hide in places the monsters don’t want, or fit?
Haven’t you noticed all the public resistance to their expansions? How small businesses die when the megaliths move in? How can it be competitive when the greedy giants can dictate prices to their suppliers, and control the transport and warehousing? Can your average suburban small business do that? Hardly

* Do you see anywhere in the published figures the total cost of management, including all the bonuses and lurks? *

Yup you do, have you ever read a detailed Annual report?

*Do you see anywhere in those figures the profits made by subsidiary companies, transport, storage etc?*

Yup you do. Those figures are ripped to bits by analysts too.

* the spin-offs to executives for handling it all? *

If they are paid, yup you do. I seem to recall that years ago
one CEO of Coles-Myer landed up in jail, because company money was
spent for work on his house.

Don't forget that these are large public companies, open to scrutiny
and question. Nearly every working Australian is in fact a
shareholder, through their super fund account.

So any corruption that you know about, please tell the police.

These companies turn over many billions of $. With the profit
margins claimed here, in that case there must be billions vanishing,
not just chicken feed.

Deliberately obtuse again, let me know when you want to send me the deposit on your bridge.

renew,

You have most likely picked the worst product to make a price comparison about- fresh produce.

Unless you live on another planet you would notice that these same red caps are often $3.99 or $4.99 kilo. It's all about supply and demand.

I also agree that fresh food prices are cheap in real terms.

You can still buy bread for about one dollar, a whole rump for about $6.00/kg and chicken pieces for around $3.00/kg.

Items such as potatoes will never be cheap again as the labor costs associated with growing and harvesting them are prohibitive.

Many people complain about food costs yet think nothing of paying $4.00 plus for a cup of coffee.

If you shop wisely you can save money.

Crackcup I did not see the show you refer to but had a quick look at the website. I have spent some time in NZ recently and found the food costs overall no cheaper than here so your topic came as a bit of a surprise.

In fact I was surprised at just how expensive NZ supermarket prices were given the wages are generally lower and they are not as influenced by the duopoly of Coles/Woolworths. If there is evidence that Australian products are cheaper in NZ than here it may be that NZ is the dumping ground for our excess produce or the supermarkets can barter better at the wholesale level.

Petrol prices were much higher in NZ too and I assume they buy from the same oil companies.

Also how were the prices compared between the different socio-economic areas? Shows like this tend to be a bit misleading - they often omit more than they reveal in terms of methodology.

Talking to the NZ locals (especially growers) they revealed that, like in Australia, some of the best locally grown produce gets exported offshore.

Real estate was about the only sector where I could see a comparable difference in price - that is, cheaper in general in NZ even at the high end of the market.

We weren't in NZ for more than three weeks and did not do an indepth study but these were our overall impressions.

http://www.smh.com.au/ftimages/2005/04/14/1113251725602.html

There you go Max, that's Brian Quinn, ex CEO of Coles-Myer,
who spent 2.5 years in the clink, for having the company
renovate his house at shareholder expense.

If you know of any more, please let us know.

I just happen to be a bit of a skeptic, so when people make
wild, outrageous claims, where the numbers simply don't stack
up, even when worked out on the back of an envelope, my
bulldust meter switches on and I point it out.

But feel free to shoot the messenger! Its a passionate
sport on OLO.

rehctub,

You are certainly right that one can still eat reasonably well and cheaply as long as one is prepared be a little intrepid and shop around. Nowadays, I've decided to play the supermarkets at their own game and buy the specials wherever possible. I find that you can get bakery items like bread rolls, donuts and pizza slices cheap after about 7pm as they are thrown out after the shop closes each night. Same with large cooked chickens - they can get discounted down to $4-5. Cakes close to the use-by date are often also marked down. Sometimes even get cheesecake and banana cake for about half price, but that's a treat. Plain wrap items aren't always bad quality either.

Buy veggies that are in season and get meat from small wharehouse outlets is the best bet for minimising the cost of these items.

I've turned into a real "specials" rat and proud of it ....

I’ll give this one more go Yabby, see if you can follow me.
One of the megaliths buys radishes from a supplier, at a price determined by the buyer. It is transported in a privately owned truck, sewn up in an exclusive contract, the prices and times of delivery again set by the buyer. It is delivered to a warehouse, again privately owned and sewn up in an exclusive contract, prices set by the customer. Are you seeing the pattern here yet?
It is carried to the stores by company vehicles, and distributed in their stores at a price solely set by them. That is effectively total control, and they enforce it vigorously.
At every step along the chain are subsidiary companies, consultants, surveyors, advisers, all usually connected to the upper echelons of the company. All are included as part of the “costs” and justify the huge mark-ups on the shelves.
The sole purpose of the majority of these extra positions in the chain is to make money for the wealthy running things. It’s all perfectly legal, tied up in a complex web of cross-ownership and directorships etc, yet it is totally immoral, and causes the cost of living we have to live with to be higher than it would otherwise be.
I call that a corrupt practice, and an abuse of virtual monopolistic power, legal or not

Max, you kit the nail on the head when you said,
prices set by the customer.

This is where the whole problem lies. If the consumer decided not to pay the price, the product does not sell and we all loose.

Most food prices and profits work backwards. The price is set then the profits and expenses are taken out along the way and what is left is paid to the farmer.

This is the problem. And remember, every time you want something cheaper you are in fact ripping off the farmer as most other costs are set. In most cases he just gets what is left.

You silly people. Don't you know that Mr Rudd's grocery watch was going to bring prices down.

*The sole purpose of the majority of these extra positions in the chain is to make money for the wealthy running things.*

Max, low level corruption can exist in any supply chain, anywhere.
I know of it even in the restaurant industry, where chefs would
buy their meat and seafood from certain suppliers, due to kickbacks.
Mind you, to my knowledge its far less of a problem in Australia,
then in Asia where its common and even in Europe, where I have
heard of quite a few cases.

Yes, low level corruption costs everyone, as does shoplifting.

In this case, you are implying that it also happens in our food
delivery supply chains. That is possible. When Wesfarmers took
over Coles 18 months or so ago, their managers flew into Melbourne
and totally reorganised the old management. Many heads rolled out
the door, some of them I gather, for the reasons that you are
suggesting.

The thing is, today's managers are very well paid by shareholders.
If one of them is making a few bob on the side, which can certainly
happen in the buying sections, his career would soon be over if
his little schemes come to light. Thats the end of the big salary
too. So it would be a stupid employee who would take such risks.

What you are suggesting is that the very top people in these
companies are corrupt and on that score I strongly disagree with
you and its mere speculation on your part

Oh good grief rechtub, how many prices have YOU set as a customer?
Then customer I was referring to was the big chains, C&W, not the ultimate retail customer. When prices are set by the big un’s, we have little choice but to pay it, not so the truckies, who must take what they’re given and meet demanding schedules, that can and do cause accidents on our roads. The farmer/producer is in the same boat, he must take what is offered, no matter his o/h’s.
Not buying food is not an option, and as the chains have wiped out most of the small competition, there is no longer the availability of choice, in a real sense.
Prices in the chains are NOT a reflection of demand, but of their need to make obscene profits. Why do you think most are reducing their lines, more and more generic options, and less name brands, and then only the bigger ones. Better margins, that’s why, not consumer demands. Very little of the generic stuff is Australian, again shafting local producers, and the quality is often inferior, who wants or asked for THAT?
In effect, the boards of the megaliths control the costs/prices at every step, from gate to fridge, surely NOT a healthy, competitive situation?
Yabby, it’s not “corruption” in your terms, but it’s still a corrupt practice, socially and morally in my terms, and bleeds us all. Since the top strata of business and the Gov co-operate to determine legality, and business has virtually a free rein in how they structure the whole thing, of course their feeding frenzy is “legal”, but it’s destroying the free-market they all spout about, and costing us more now and in the long run.

rehctub:“This is the problem. And remember, every time you want something cheaper you are in fact ripping off the farmer as most other costs are set. In most cases he just gets what is left.”

That is that romantic view of the old guy on the tractor jumping off to dig up his spuds and put them on the little trailer aye. Not those massive farms where the “farmer” is suit wearing CEO.

I wish we could all decide to rip them off. Oh and go organic while we’re at it.

So, and I might have missed it, why was NZ paying less for the same product?

Yabby,

Max is talking about structural corruption, where a whole industry of financial parasites effectively positions itself in the supply chain for doing little of substance or productive worth but which expects to be remunerated for just being there.

Thinking outside the square, why have the blighters at all? That's why I've suggested going to a more localised, market-garden type of approach as the food will be fresher and cheaper, the "carbon footprint" for transporting food to market will be less and there will be more opportunity for more people to be actively employed selling and growing in the food business.

RobP, Max is simply jumping from consipiracy theory to consipiracy
theory right now. Yes, Woolies and Coles make a profit, but in
relation to what they do actually do, its quite slim.

For what you are thinking, there are already Farmers Markets being
set up all around Australia. Many people love them and go every
week, but for many like myself, convenience matters and when it
comes to value for money and time, I think I am getting a more
then fair deal and clearly those many other shoppers agree with me.

I could go to IGA, they cost more, the selection is not there.
I do what you do, I buy the specials and pop stuff in the freezer.
Each week there is meat on special, I have a bit of a pantry at
home for other stuff, easy peasy, cheaper groceries and meat.

IMHO alot of what is being raised is due to the fact that a few
very large global multinationals supply Coles and Woolies with many
of those products and they call the shots. Simplot, Nestle, Unilever,
Kellogs etc, operate globally and they call the real shots. They
can price stuff differently into different markets, with higher
margins in some countries, lower in others, whatever the market
will bear.

It became an issue when Aldi tried to bring in Nescafe from
Indonesia, where it was much cheaper and the crap hit the fan.

Just look at printer ink to see what some multinationals will
do to stop you buying cheaper in other countries. Now that
is a frigging ripp off, not the can of fruit etc that you buy
at the supermarket.

But Max is convinced of his consipiracy theories it seems,
even if the figures deny it.

"RobP, Max is simply jumping from consipiracy theory to consipiracy
theory right now. Yes, Woolies and Coles make a profit, but in
relation to what they do actually do, its quite slim."

Yabby,

When you look at any one element of the chain in isolation, the numbers don't look too bad. But when you sum up all the bit players in the chain and quantify their impact in terms of the price jump between farmer and retailer, it's actually quite significant. So, Coles and Woolies have a slim margin, but they more than make up their profit volume by having a large market share. You must know that when one group does well, someone else always loses, because there's only a finite amount of resources and capacity that the whole of society has to fit within. In the case of Coles and Woolies, the losers are mainly their employees who are paid lowish wages (compared with society at large), small family businesses and a lot of ordinary workers that are employed in the food chain (literally). That's why many Asians are now working as checkout operators these days, because C&W and driving down costs everywhere they can in order to maintain their margins.

"I think I am getting a more then fair deal and clearly those many other shoppers agree with me"

The operative phrase is "more than a fair deal". I'd argue that good for you equals not so good for someone else.

Overall, it sounds like you're saying that things for the consumer are better now than in the past. From a personal, relative point of view, that's fair enough. But, it still doesn't rebut the point some of us are making on this thread that there is an industry that is getting financially rewarded out of proportion to what it actually produces. Getting rid of that will flatten the playing field quite a bit and make things a lot fairer for a lot more people.

Well said RobP, and thanks.
Yabby, I never saw a conspiracy, or suggested one.
I see it as a gradual accretion, a meeting here, a lunch there, a whole decades-long process of greedy powerful people gradually tilting the system in their favour. No cabals, no grand plan, just the natural culmination of dog-eat-dog capitalism. Human nature at it’s worst, in this context, government, public service, and private enterprise all caught in a situation not of their making, but used to their advantage

*there is an industry that is getting financially rewarded out of proportion to what it actually produces*

Absolutaly not. You should see what happens, when then is no
C&W! I know, as I live in the country lol. I have to drive 70km
to get to a Coles store. Small shopkeepers much prefer huge margins,
so straight away prices rocket 30-40%.

Next thing is small shopkeepers buy from wholesalers, who add their
cop on top. One storekeeper here in town actually goes shopping
at Coles, as its cheaper then her wholesaler. C&W have in fact cut
out that middle man. Thats why they are cheaper.

Next thing, with their home brands, they keep many a multinational
honest. Go to Coles and compare Kellogs corn flakes with Coles
corn flakes. They are not rocket science to manufacture. Yet
the price difference is enormous.

Supermarkets grew because customers flocked to them, without them
small retailers would screw the life out of us, as we can see where
there are no large chains. Consumers voting with their wallets
are driving all this, that is democracy in action for you!

Wesfarmers today is Australia's largest employer, with around
300'000 employees, IIRC. They pay reasonable wages, to people mostly
unskilled, who clearly can't earn more elsewhere. Cash in hand
is only a small part of the wages cost.

As to value, 2$ of food at Coles, can buy me enough food to keep
going for half a day. What will you give me for 2$ of your time?

Yabby,

I'll agree with you to the extent that circumstances in country areas are different to the city. A Woolies out there is probably a good thing to keep prices down. I'm speaking more from a city perspective, where I think that competition, and the ruthlessness that goes with it, goes too far.

BTW, where do you live in WA? I spent a few years working on a field seismic crew which was based in Perth, so I might know the area you're talking about.

I've just done my fortnightly visit into town for provisions. I live on a property outside Broken Hill.

Here are some of the prices I paid:

Navel oranges - - $1.99 kg

Delicious apples - - $1.99 kg

Tomatoes - - $2.50 kg

Bread multigrain - - $2.60 a loaf

Sprite Zero 1.5 lt on special - - $1.50 a bottle

Silverside beef - - 3 meal's worth $7.20

Jumper - - $8.90

Warm coat - - $15.00

Pillows 2 (good ones too, on special) - - $11.20 each

Anyone who thinks Aussies are hard done by with high retail prices, is not living in the real world. You just have to "LOOK" for the cheaper prices, and you will find.

Back when I was a lad in the 20's, right up to the late 50's with the demise of the small retailers, average retail prices were MUCH MUCH higher when inflation is taken into account. I know, I WAS THERE!

In Australia, in modern times, we get things VERY easy - - - - with 1 exception, 'house and property prices' (with some geographical exceptions) which have far and away outstripped most of the developed world. Higher property prices help no one, except those who already own then sell and buy downmarket. If you make $100,000 profit on a property, generally speaking if you desire another equal quality property in the same type of area you'd have to pay that extra $100,000 towards the new property. So you get no benefit from the "so called" profit. And of course, if you're a first time home buyer, massive price increases make it more difficult to enter the market, and more difficult to pay off the mortgage.

Master,

Sounds like you're doing OK out Broken Hill way. I live in Canberra and we hardly ever get prices that low at Coles/Woolies for the fresh stuff.

While the prices do fluctuate, we're paying anywhere between about $3.99 to $5.99/kg for fresh tomatoes (which taste like water) and at least $2.99/kg for apples. I recently paid $5.99/kg for Granny Smiths.

Loaves of bread you can get on special at 2 for $5 for the 650g loaves and 2 for $6 for the 750-850g range.

But what about these?

About 5 years ago I regularly used to get 825g cans of pineapple for a tad over $2. Now they're almost $3.50. That's a 70% markup. Any sort of tinned fruit and veg have gone up for that matter. The base price of any sort of biscuit has risen quite a lot over the past few years. About 3 years ago, you could get a big Cadbury's block of chocolate on special for $2.50. Now the best specials are $3.50. That's a 40% markup. So I guess it's swings and roundabouts, depending on where you live and what's in season etc.

Good grief!
I live in Darwin, an “alleged” Capital city. I live within 500mtrs of both chains, and go to markets etc regularly.
The local quality is appalling, you couldn’t give it away down south!
The prices you all quote are “to dream of” here, no bull!
I’ve got a heap of dockets, here’s a sample-
Navel Oranges- $7.99/kg
Delicious Apples-$8.69/kg
Tomatoes-range between $5.99-$$8.99/kg
Bread/multigrain, minimum$3.60 up to $$6.00
Sprite Zero(I don’t buy it but checked anyway) $2.50(normal retail $3.20)
Silverside Beef- $27.00/kg
The warm clothes don’t apply up here, thank The Great Wombat, but I’ve sent the odd docket down to a parsimonious sister in Adelaide, and scared her off coming up here, unfortunately, lol!
Green Vegies of any kind START at $8-$10/kg, spuds on special are $6-$8/kg. onions $5-$10/kg, even a single lettuce costs $4 !
Count your blessings!

The top end, including Alice Springs, always has been and always will be MUCH more expensive than the rest of Australia. Just look at house prices in the Alice; they've been going up, up, up for many years (no world economic crisis there). It cost's around $300,000 to $400,000 to get an even half decent house/land package there. Even then what you get is usually an older house, surrounded by mere dirt and in an unappealing location - - - - and all in a very isolated town with horrendous social problems. To get a nice home, in a reasonable location, you need close to half a million dollars. The property prices in Darwin are also high.

HIGH? LOL , you said a mouthful!
I rent a tiny one-bedroom flat in the city, $220p/w, and that's cheap!
Houses START at a half million bucks, in the worst places, anywhere "nice" will cost you $1.5million plus!
Units in towers are not available under $750,000.and that's the wrecked ones, anything decent starts at $1.000.000!
If I didn't work, I couldn't afford to live here, other than as a "long-grasser"!

This weeks prices in WA at Coles - the specials

Bananas 2.79 a kg
lettuces 89c each
pink lady apples, 2.89 a kg
navel oranges 3.79 for a 3kg bag.

Frankly I think thats great value for money and shows that Coles
are getting their crap together and becoming competitive, with the
change in management.

Max, I'd say refridgerated freight will always make things expensive,
up where you live. You should live in a sensible place :)

Truckies reckon they need 4$ to 5$ a km, to make their trips
worthwhile and its a lot of km to where you are.

Grocery website quietly checks out
By Sid Maher and Patricia Karvelas

The Australian
June 27, 2009 08:00am

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25697810-5007133,00.html

"THE Rudd government has dumped the centrepiece of its election promise to keep down grocery prices, axing its controversial Grocery Choice website less than a week before its scheduled relaunch."

Gee, thanks Yabby, that makes me feel so-o-o-o-o much better, as my wallet bleeds!
A lot of what we get here is reject stock from down south, and the freight costs are a bare fraction of the profit margin, we are a "captive market", and they cash in on it ruthlessly.
I'm glad to see Australians such as you are so sympathetic to others in a bad situation, you rural types are notorious for your empathy, your willingness to support those who suffer from the tyrannies of distance!
Thanks cobber.

Max, there is one thing that has always impressed me about WA
rural types. When they have a problem, they are incredibly
good at finding a solution themselves. For the rest of
Australia simply treats WA as a cash cow for mineral
royalties, little else. They have no interest in our problems.

Now if your conspiracy theory of massive profits is correct,
rather then feeling sorry for you, I would suggest it
gives you a great opportunity in life, to help yourself
and your fellow Darwin residents.

You have people place their orders with you online and
ship it all up on the train from Adelaide, making a
profit for yourself plus giving your customers a bargain!

Its a win win situation Max, just waiting for you to make
it happen.

Geez Yabby, you’ve really got the conspiracy bug haven’t you?
To the point where anyone who states an honest opinion on the way the market actually works, rather than the way it’s claimed to, must be seeing a conspiracy. Shut your mouth, open your eyes, read my posts with an open mind (if possible), you’ll find my answer already there.
As for you rural sandgropers, yeah,I’ve seen their solutions, run weeping to the Gov’, state and federal, pocket the money and weep some more, the most common comment there is a kids wail..”It’s not fair”!
Give me a break! The rural sector is probably the worst hit sector in Oz, and has a long track record of surviving, but the reality is it’s largely corporate based these days, managers instead of owners, and there’s little unity or co-operation. You’re living in a fading echo of a proud past, and your sarcasm reduces any respect you may have garnered. Get with the 21st Century, get real, put aside your innocence, if that’s what it is, and look at what is actually happening. As it is, only Ol’ Iron-bar would agree with you, which is quite sad really!

Ah Maxi, I have read your posts and already think I know the
real problem. Your hatred of capitalism is the real problem it seems.

Just to check, I helped myself to find the answer :)

http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/b/sunrise/6255/australias-cash-crisis

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Products/6ADAE064F981FA01CA2574EF001392B3?opendocument

both websites which look at grocery prices in Darwin. You pay a bit
more, similar to in Cairns, but I can't see any huge rip offs there.

So perhaps the real problem is the perception of the beholder,
in your case political ideology, which is distorting the facts.

Its common on OLO.

" ...political ideology, which is distorting the facts. Its common on OLO."

Yabby,

I plead a certain bias in my POV. While a student in the 80s, I used to work for both Coles and Woolies in Melbourne and Perth packing the shelves at night. It was head down, bum up work which involved wheeling your trolley down to the end of the aisle, stacking boxes from a pallet onto the trolley, roving up and down the aisle finding the right location for each item on the shelf, cutting the boxes, pricing every item with a Meto gun, clearing the shelf, putting the box in, facing up the goods so that the label was facing outwards and putting the excess cardboard into a trolley. The average carton rate expected was 38 - a box every 1 1/2 minutes. If you had a gun jam or you slashed a 2litre bottle of Coke which fizzed everywhere, you got slowed down and had to make the time up. The job got you a bit under $10 an hour - if you ask me, it was the 1980s equivalent of sheep shearing. Just like gun shearers, there were gun night fillers. Most of the staff were older men and women either working a second job or women working part-time to supplement their husband's income. They didn't do it for the love, but because they were mortgage slaves, basically. Most of us went home knackered.

I found it very much a job where the store managers exploited the staff (and the customers), so my view of Coles mainly is forever tainted.

Getting back to what you say about prices, you are right - C&W do drive the prices down. But they do it at a cost, mainly a human one on the people that work for them or are connected with them.

But you still don't answer the charge that there are a lot of other hidden costs and entities in the overall distribution network that are causing the price at the supermarket register to be higher than they could be.

RobP, welcome to the real world!

Yes, some people will do mindless boring jobs and do it for the
money. They would not be doing it, if they had a better offer.
The problem really is in your perception. All over the world,
people spend endless hours doing boring jobs. In relative terms,
Australians doing the same, are extremely well paid. Are you
suggesting that they would be better off with no jobs?

Selling groceries indeed has a lot to do with the logistics and
its costs. One of the reasons why Coles landed up being sold
up, was that the place turned over huge amounts of money, but
hardly earned a profit. American venture capital nearly bought
them, but I'm glad that they have landed up in Australian hands,
so that future profits stay in Australia.

Woolies run rings around Coles in terms of profitability,
because their computer systems and logistics systems are so
much more efficient. The price of goods at both stores is in
fact extremely similar.

Woolies landed up copying Walmart, Coles are now in the process
of reorgansing their logistics to try and be as efficient, for
its pointless turning over billions, if there is hardly a
profit in the end.

Waste is the big killer and cost driver, eliminating it benefits
both shareholders and customers.

"All over the world, people spend endless hours doing boring jobs. In relative terms, Australians doing the same, are extremely well paid."

Not compared with those higher up the food chain in this country, they're not.

"Are you suggesting that they would be better off with no jobs?"

No. What I would say is that people who do the boring, while still necessary, jobs should get paid more while the wheeler and dealer types higher up the food chain get paid less. Who decides that one person's effort is not worth another's effort. For me, it boils down to wage justice. There simply isn't any when you look at many modern industries and the breakup of work done versus remuneration.

Yeah, yeah I can just picture your response being that the market decides the wages, but the market is hardly just, is it? It is purely about most efficiently making a profit. The market always puts human aspects last in its list of priorities.

Yabby, there you go with “statistics”, which as we all know, are too unreliable to be anything other than a representation of what the compiler would like you to see.
I’ve looked at those sites, and they are quite at odds with the prices here at the moment.
When we have to pay $6 for a one kilo bag of tasteless, tough-skinned tomatoes on a Monday,, and by the end of the week the same bags are being sold at $9, and that effect carries across a lot of meat and vegetables, $30+ for lamb, cheap bacon at $12/kg, I could go on. The Megaliths also largely set the price of fuel here too, yet despite the fact our petrol sails past us on it’s way to southern ports, for trucking back here, none of them are willing to invest in a suitable port here, despite a huge gas terminal and associated facilities. Where’s the efficiency in that? Not to mention the subsidiary costs born by the taxpayer in maintaining the roads and the increased danger on those same roads, have a look at the road-trains hauling fuel, they’re massive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxidLqkubVc

As for my alleged “hatred” of the capitalist system, I’ve made no secret of my disgust at its unfairness and excesses, but I think you’re still just playing the man, not answering my questions, and ignoring the reality of the Australian retail scene. You praise efficiency, yet ignore any questions about the management of the monies involved in the day to day operations of the Megaliths, the multiple layers and fees and costs associated therewith..

RobP, yes the market sets wage rates, but we also have minimum wage protection.
As it happens, the minimum wage in 1980 was 139$ a week, so you were being
paid around 3 times as much, hardly slave labour.

The market is about establishing a value for something, that is all. People are
free to sell their labour, like the deli is free to sell you a newspaper. Everyone
has choices. Nobody has yet suggested a better way of establishing value.

I have yet to see people like you prepared to pay extra for groceries, in order
to pay higher wages to shelf stackers. You want the market to supply them
to you as cheaply as possible.

Govt is free to pay low wage earners extra, which they do through welfare
payments.

Max, sorry but in this case I think that the ABS has a little more credibility
then you do, when it comes to statistics. Perhaps you should shop around
a little.

Darwin is still little more then a large country town in the end, based on
the population. Building a port there is up to Govt, not companies.

AFAIK, both Coles and Woolies use logistics operators like Toll or
Fox to move their freight around, rather then own their own trucks.

As to your questions, they are so wishy washy, with no specifics,
that there is nothing to answer. Wild claims and allegations won’t
do it for you, I am afraid, be specific.

Maximillion - I know you live in a flat, but is there any way you could grow some of your own fruit & vegies? You'd be amazed what you can grow at home, even in pots. With Darwin's climate, you could grow stuff all year round.

Admittedly we have a reasonable-sized garden, but we grow much of our own F&V.

As far as C&W are concerned, I've pretty well abandoned them in favour of IGA & Foodworks. Where I live in rural southern Queensland, the range and prices compare very favourably - and we can also access local produce direct from the growers.

I think the further north you go, the more you suffer from transport and storage costs for fresh food - if you buy from the major chains, anyway. When I lived in Townsville in the 1980s and 90s, I was astounded to learn that fruit and vegetables grown in the Burdekin region 100km south was transported to the Brisbane markets by road (a further 1600km south), and then shipped back to the major supermarket chains up north. It was much the same with seafood - not so sure about meat.

Maybe things have improved, but I always found that to be a really irrational way of marketing food.

RobP
Are you for real?

Here we are in the middle of a 'skill shortage' yet you want the 'unskilled' to get paid more than the 'skilled'!

Gee I hope you never get elected into parliment and have some say in how wages are set as there will be no one around to do the 'skilled' jobs. We will all be doing less and getting paid more.

Back on topic. Most people have a 'spending cricis' rather than a 'money shortage.

If you spend wisely you can live well on a lot less.

Remember, life is full of choices.

Yabby, this is my final post in this thread..
You suggest I shop around? Where? As you say, this is little more than a large town, though at any given moment there are many thousands of tourists here as well.
The only alternatives to the chains now are the odd tiny suburban deli-type store, who mostly rely on the chains for supplies anyway, and are hence dearer, just to survive.
This situation is no accident, it is repeated across Australia, and is widely publicized.
My point about the port was that we already have one, and another on the way, yet the opportunity is being ignored in favour of the more profitable status-quo. The Oil companies tell Gov’ where they’d like a port or facility, then it’s up to them to make it happen, or not, as the case may be. No Gov’ would dare spend that level of money if there was no agreement with the oil industry to use it.
As for transport, where have you been, haven’t you seen the protests, the coroner’s reports, the reviews? The chains dictate the price for shipment, because they can, and the drivers are at the bottom of the food chain, killing themselves, and us, to meet deadlines set by the chains!
You seem to accept the beneficence of the near-monopolies as a given, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
If you see many interlinked companies and their multiple layers of executives, advisers, etc as being as efficient as a single company or seven, and a pile of computers and their operators, then I have no hope of a clear answer from you. All I have claimed was that that rat’s nest of complexity served no clear and obvious purpose, yet has the effect of pouring a lot of money into the pockets of those who set it up. Money that has to come from the tills, driving up the prices we all have to pay.
I offer to agree to disagree, you are eloquent, whatever I may think of your position.

Oops, sorry CJM, no, there's nowhere possible, I live right in the centre of the main street of the CBD.

"RobP, Are you for real? Here we are in the middle of a 'skill shortage' yet you want the 'unskilled' to get paid more than the 'skilled'!"

You've oversimplified what I said - I didn't say the unskilled should get paid more than the skilled. I effectively said the gap between them should narrow. If the gap continues to grow as it is now, it becomes too demoralising and impossible for those at the bottom.

Yabby,

"If you see many interlinked companies and their multiple layers of executives, advisers, etc as being as efficient as a single company or seven, and a pile of computers and their operators, then I have no hope of a clear answer from you. All I have claimed was that that rat’s nest of complexity served no clear and obvious purpose, yet has the effect of pouring a lot of money into the pockets of those who set it up. Money that has to come from the tills, driving up the prices we all have to pay."

Re Max's point above and your comment:

"Waste is the big killer and cost driver, eliminating it benefits both shareholders and customers."

why doesn't the grocery industry simplify, and make more efficient, the high-level consultancies and other wastage of resources that add little value to the actual product? As CJ points out there were, and probably still are, major inefficiencies in the transport chain. That'd be a good place to start. Another thing they could do is cut down the number of marketing consultants and other various hangers-on that chew the fat in the office and contribute little of any productive value.

RobP, a great deal of the changes going on within the reorganisation
of Coles right now, are exactly about that. That is why the old
management was thrown out. When there are literally hundreds of
thousands of workers involved, many not the brightest, you need
systems in place which all can follow, which are failsafe.

OTOH it used to be Coles policy to decide everything from Melbourne.
Wesfarmers take a different approach. They give store managers far
more flexibility to make their own decisions, choices about which
products to stock etc. Right now, the focus in on improving fresh
fruit and veggie quality right through. Certainly in the Coles
store where I go, the first improvements are coming through, but
the whole project will take 5 years to implement, so stay tuned.

Max, Coles and Woolies are large, but they certainly don't have
a monopoly right around Australia. Aldi are taking increasing
market share, IGA and others are snapping at their heels too.
Farmers markets are becoming increasingly common too. So
consumers have choices.

The truckies dispute was over many things, from fuel prices last
year when they peaked, to 600$ fines imposed by the Qld Govt, for
log book mistakes. Woolies don't negotiate with owner drivers,
but with large logisitics companies.

Yabby,

“RobP, yes the market sets wage rates, but we also have minimum wage protection.
As it happens, the minimum wage in 1980 was 139$ a week, so you were being
paid around 3 times as much, hardly slave labour.”

Going back to your earlier post, firstly, the 1980s is not 1980. I worked between 1984 and 1988 when the minimum wage was probably more like $160 or $170. I started with Coles as a casual in 1984 and was paid about $8-9/hr and when I left Woolies in 1988, I was paid $10/hr for working three 5-hour shifts. The thing about casual work was that they only got you in for 4-5 hour shifts. If you were a fast filler, they got you in for more nights, but they always worked you hard for your money. The other thing about being casual was that there were no sick days or other benefits (eg like job security). That was nominally compensated for in the casual rates.

You can forget the three times as much bit, as any comparison between casual employment and the full-time minimum wage is like comparing apples and lemons. It was certainly nowhere near that good.

I’ve seen Richard Goyder, CEO of Wesfarmers, on Lateline Business and it looks to me like he means business. Hopefully he will improve the quality of fresh food and the standard of service to customers by cutting out the unproductive elements getting fat in the supply chain. However, there’s no real alternative to sourcing veggies fresh locally. You can only store them in cool rooms for so long before they lose their freshness. Also, where on earth do they get their tomatoes from these days? When I was younger, the smell of a fresh tomato was strong. Now it’s like they’ve all been picked too early and never fully ripen.

Robp:

We are back onto my favourite subject:....poor quality produce!

The Tomatoes available in this area where we live in Wide Bay/Burnett are positively atrocious and it is just about impossible to buy decent Tomatoes anywhere around here. The Tomatoes that are available are grown in and around the Bundaberg area, as are the Capsicums and the like! As you commented, they are nearly tasteless, no smell and NO character whatsoever!.....why?....because they are all a Hybrid produce, force fed on chemical growth promotant and mostly picked green to allow them to be transported to market ( before they turn to slop and slime!)

We have been led to believe that the other major centre for Tomato production, Bowen, is using the self-same seed stocks and rapid growth promotant, hence the same problem with the quality of the produce. At the end of the day, when you buy Tomatoes that are disgusting, what alternative do you really have except to either buy them or do without!

We have experienced some "decent" truss-grown Tomatoes grown in Guyra, NSW, but they are not available in the stores all the time, (We suspect due to local grower resistance and threat of boycott to the local stockists!)

What amazes us that for all the years that these local producers have been supplying poor quality product to the local market, they have been allowed to get away with it unscathed, simply because we have no form of Consumer Protection organization to monitor and to penalize the many and varied rorters who set up in business!

We heard this morning that Anna Bligh is going to "name and shame" the Petroleum opportunist who rip-off the public by increasing the price of fuels by more than the 8.2cpl!....we would wage money that there is nothing done about the whole affair on Wednesday morning next when the greed-merchants UP the price by 10cpl (or even more!) and the ACCC will as usual whine that they have no power to intervene!....Result: another scam and rip-off perpetrated on the long suffering motoring public of the Twilight State!

RobP, Goyder certainly means business and I think he's very smart
and very sincere. But I think that Wesfarmers got it wrong, buying
Coles. What alot of people don't understand is that its Super Fund
managers pushing CEOs for ever rising growth. At the moment, last
time I checked, the Coles investment was not even earning bank
interest. If he doesen't fix it, IMHO his head will roll, Super
fund managers are fairly ruthless about all this and ultimately
they decide.

Ever more tomatoes are now grown hydroponically, but that is not the
problem, it goes right back to the breeders of varieties. About
twenty years ago, I was pissed off at the crap taste of Australian
peas and I knew in France, even in South Africa, there were in fact
very tasty peas called "petite pois". Time of picking is crucial
but also the variety, so I got in touch with some commercial
pea breeders and said I wanted the best tasting peas which they
had available. They were quite shocked and said the only focus was
on yield. One old line they had did taste much better, but its
yield was 30% less, so nobody grew it.

I never went ahead with the venture as I landed up doing something
else, but I see finally today baby peas are available,
picked earlier, but more expensive. So there is a price market
and a quality market, supermarkets now need to provide both.

When I buy tomatoes, I usually buy Roma tomatoes, as most of the
time their flavour is much better then the run of the mill ones

Crackcup,
We have a second home in Hervey Bay and the wife is there at present.

Last time I was there we went to the local markets on sundays and bought our Fruit and Veges there. My wife said the quality and the prices were far better at the markets. If she needs something during the week she goes to a bloke selling off a truck on the Esplanade.

Again she claims good quality and value, and she is fussy and a big vege eater. I am more a meat and spuds bloke so don't take that much interest. My wife was raving about the strawberrys from the local farm but, damn it, they were not on when I was there. My big surprize was how cheap advocardos were.