I got the idea for this thread whilst contributing
to another thread - as well as glancing over some
of the subject matters of recent threads.

Subjects such as -this country's immigration policy,
Jews banning people from their Clubs, Freedom of Speech,
Retiring at 67 and so on.

We preach Aussie values such as a fair go, mateship,
the Gallipoli Spirit. We say that we believe in compassion,
integrity, equality, and so on.

Is it empty rhetoric? And if it isn't,
why do some people treat
philosophical, intellectual and cultural vigor
as if it were a plague?

Why do some of us mistrust anything that differs
from the norm?

Why is multiculturalism still a problem for some
today?

Why do some of us view asylum seekers with such
trepidation?

Your thought please?

We are human.

“We preach Aussie values such as a fair go, mateship,
the Gallipoli Spirit. We say that we believe in compassion,
integrity, equality, and so on.”

I think maybe you just mean those things in relation to other Aussies and your little Kiwi cousins (when not going on about sheep).

Is it empty rhetoric? And if it isn't,
why do some people treat
philosophical, intellectual and cultural vigor
as if it were a plague?

“Dunno. You’re starting to scare me though.”

“Why do some of us mistrust anything that differs
from the norm?”

Cause it isn’t normal.

“Why is multiculturalism still a problem for some
today?”

Cause Aussies (better qualify; the ones I have met) are racist.

"Why do some of us view asylum seekers with such
trepidation? Your thought please?"

It’s all those new bad words you have to make up and the jokes, causes your average Aussie a lot of stress.

You don’t have a firm bonded culture so are scared of being outnumbered and changed. You have been bad to your aboriginals Foxy and until you fix it all other cultures will view you with suspicion.

Quick Story (promise). In my last grove I lived around in NZ was five houses my whitey family, next door was a White woman X Maori family, other side was a big Maori X Samoan Family and next to them was an Asian family, on the other side of the Samoans X Maori was and Irish X Saudi husband.

All our kids played together and in the weekends all the growups would sit and watch our 15 kids play on the street while we had some beers and the most sober woman would go cook a feed or the men would roll out a barbq.

Who would believe Sol Trujillo.It is more about sour grapes.He was paid $20 million pa plus bonuses and still Telstra is not saleable.
I saw the Kevin "adios",there was no racial slur intended.It was more good bye and good riddens.Sol was a failure as a CEO.

We are no more intolerant or racist than the USA.If you want to see real racial intolerance,look at Japan or China.We don't mention the war and their racial intolerances,since they are now our biggest trading parteners and a lot is now allowed to pass under the radar,while we indulge in self flagellation.

I think one of the problems is that Australians don't get out enough. If you want to see a narrow-minded, prejudiced and intolerant society, there are plenty of better examples out there. I have lived in a couple and visited many more.

In the meantime, I can assure you that Jewely's pleasant vignette of life in NZ is alive and well in many Australian neighbourhoods, too. Today, while doing my playground duty at work, I watched white kids (British and Italian descent, primarily), Aboriginal kids, Maori kids, Samoan kids and Torres Strait Islanders kicking footballs around together. I watched a couple of Thai kids playing handball with some white kids AND a Sri Lankan. I saw a couple of black Zimbabwean girls catching up on the gossip with white girls, Asian girls . . . you name it! What is most important is that these kids seem blissfully unaware of any differences between them, even at their most vulnerable and self-conscious stage in life. I don't know how their parents interact - if they do at all - but they certainly aren't passing hatred and intolerance onto their kids.

Otokonoko
Kids are not racists! But when they will grow up they will grab the racial privilages or they will become second class employees or second class citizens!
From statistics we now that racists are older than young people, men than women, less educated than high educated people, unemployeed and unskiled than working or skiled, people from the vilages or small towns, from areas with less migrants, than with many migrants.
Many people are against us (migrants)because they heard something bad about us and of cause they do not know us.
Many ausies whom we (migrants) call racists they are not really racists, simple they know that more migrants means more problems for them, higher probability to lose their job because the migrants work harder under worst conditions and they push lower the general working conditions.
Last years we have had many problems in Australia, as the attack from Howard's government against labors, we had the no choice law which worsen the working conditions, we had the closing down from many industries of cause the cheap products from china, or the transfer of Australian industries overseas, now we have huge economic problems of cause the international financial crisis,etc There is a huge press on the ausies, they do not know how to keep their jobs, they do not know what will happen tomorrow BUT THEY ARE SURE,THAT WITH LESS MIGRANTS, WITH LESS AVAILABLE WORKING HANDS THEY COULD BE BETTER THESE DIFFICULTS DAYS.
Many ausies seem racists but in realy are people under high press in a difficult economic environment. When the crisis pass then I am sure that the realations between Australians will improved.
Of cause there are Australian racists, as there racists in every country, normal they are 4%-7% of the population of a country and their number increased as the economic conditions become worst.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonios has a good handle on the situation and it is time that Aussies ceased the self-flagellation for every race on the planet is racist at some time or another for some reason or another.

Compared to New Zealand, if you believe the media and blog reports on racist physical violence below, Australia is not so bad though there remains room for improvement:

1. Just hours before heading to the markets Johnny Zhang was abused for no reason as he waited at traffic lights.

2. Phil Pam has also experienced discrimination. In his case, rubbish was thrown at him as he walked down the street.

3. 10/08: Shannon Brent Flewellen, 29, a former fisherman, from Nelson, New Zealand, and a 31-year-old former Westport man, have admitted to the murder of South Korean backpacker Jae Hyeon Kim in 2003.

Mr Kim was beheaded with a spade after he was throttled in late 2003. He was buried for five years before the police were forced to search for his body.

4. 2009: Bio O’Brien, 27, an Auckland student whose car was involved in a “very, very minor” accident with a van left his BMW and punched the driver in the head.

The victim, Jasmatbhai Patel, a 78-year-old Indian grandfather, received critical brain injuries and was subsequently put into an induced coma at Auckland Hospital, yesterday. Police said Mr Patel died in the hospital at 1.30pm this afternoon.
5. 09/09: Murdered in New Zealand: 4th Chinese woman in recent weeks! http://newzeelend.wordpress.com/chinese-plight/

6. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK0905/S00333.htm

7. “More foreigners are violently murdered [or killed on the roads, killed using defective vehicles, sports equipment, etc.] in New Zealand than in any other country with the exception of Iraq. Between Jan 1, 2000 and April 30, 2009 at least 1,529 foreigners were killed in New Zealand.

[The 450+ foreigners who are missing in New Zealand, are not included.]”

I would advise anyone wanting to escape Australian racism, not to go to New Zealand – which has an “impressive” record of racist violence, for a nation of just 4.4 million inhabitants.

One word- Xenophobia.
And it's written in our genes, there's no escape.
Education and experience can overcome it, with an effort, but it still lurks, even in the best of us.

Hey Protagoras, I told everyone not long ago that Kiwis are nuts on the roads. I think the point being in this topic is that while driving like looneys they aren’t targeting any particular race.

My little story or what Arjay called it was pointing out that I personally haven’t seen that here. I arrive here and all I hear is the white Aussies being loudly racist. First day of school here my 14 and 15 year old at the time come home really shocked at how the kids talk about the aboriginals. Jen got in a fight the first week because some blondy had a go at an Arab girl purely because she was in her headdress.

I don’t see anything firmly “cultural” in Aussie.

Yes other countries do act the same to their immigrants and worse. The Arabs obviously hated me on site until I could get through I am from NZ not USA then they would like me. Good or bad goes out the window.

What is your identity? Don’t attack or try and tell me another country is worse because I know that stuff. Tell me, as a nation, what is your culture?

If you are going to tell me the Central Coast is an anomaly then I will believe you.

I might need it for my citizenship stuff.

Maximillion, I don’t have X that thing, might be a mental condition… I don’t recognize people physically until I have met them several times and unless focusing I don’t notice what colour I am talking to.

Please Antonios, the white racist Aussies I have met seriously have no idea behind why they don’t like someone of another creed, colour or heritage. They can’t explain it they just spread it.

I think Aussies used to be racist and intolerant. The masthead on the Sydney Bulletin used to read Australia for the white man, Menzies joke about two wongs don’t make a white, and such like, were common back in the seventies. However, if we were to restore our universal rights to jury trial, and total and free access to courts and judges, as existed in Australia before we reacted to this racism, by installing aristocrats to be our judges.

These people are in many ways subhuman. They inflict pain on others, do not believe in Almighty God or keep the spirit and intent of the Constitution, and cannot or will not read carefully. I am minded of the first sentence of the Book of Ruth, in the Old Testament. And it came to pass when the Judges ruled there was a famine in the land.

We used to have judges, twelve of them, to sort out our differences, but now we have one elite effete snobby public servant, in all civil matters and they sentence people too. The famine is evidenced by the beggers and paupers who sleep rough in our cities, so instead of being treated as Christians we are now treated as slaves, and a resource to be exploited. The famine is brought about because the Judges, created since 1970, have become the same as the Roman Catholic Priests who oversaw the inquisition, destroyed Mexico, and much of South America, and will destroy Australia given enough time. It does not matter whether the Priest is a Roman Catholic Priest, or an Anglican in name only. Anyone who judges another is an atheist.

We are intolerant and unwilling to accept that the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights is law, and it guarantees equality. If it were not for the Judges who inflict famine on at least 100,000 Australians by refusing to conduct courts, in accordance with the Constitution, Gospels and Covenant, we would have a far more tolerant and wonderful place to live.

As it is we live in fear, and harbour prejudice against our fellows.

Like anywhere else, Australia's citizens include many who are "narrow-minded, prejudiced and intolerant".

A major difference between us and others is that this is seen as normal, or even a virtue, by a large proportion of the dominant culture.

Protagoras
Many times people are very hard against mirants not because they are racists but because they take advandage from our weakness, who cares for migrants rights? what can do a migrant with poor english and ignoring his basic rights?
4-5 years before for unkonwn reason the printer for whom I was working as assist decided to work continously withouht lunch at all.
By law employees have to have lunch within 5 hours, I asked him for my lunch and he said me no we will not stop the machine.
I left him for two weeks to see what he will do, I think he was ready to block my lunch for ever!
I went to supervisor and said me that the printer does not allow me to have lunch lat two weeks.
The suvervisor came there and asked the printer why did not allow me to have lunch and the printer answered" I did not have lunch too!"
He thought that because he did not like to have lunch he could block me to have lunch too.. For him I was not an employee with rights but something like a personal slave!
This man was for some years product manager there.
I can right books about the working conditions for the migrants, already I send letters to human right comission (federal, State SA, SASAFE) I published in my websites or in various forums.
BUT I WILL GIVE THE BATLE OF MY LIFE IN 3-4 YEARS WHEN MY SON WILL COMPLETE HIS STUDY PROGRAM AND I WILL KNOW THAT I NOT DIE ON THE STREETS FROM HUNGRY!
Do not forget that I was district secretary of the trade unions and an activist for social justicy, democracy and human rights and that in Australia I was sole parent with three children and I had EXTREMELY little room to move!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

Protagoras I wanted to tell
Many times people are very hard against mirants not because they are racists but because they take advandage from our weakness for their own benefits.
For example for many years a printer did not allowed me to make packing which we put under the plate because he wanted to avoid dirty work.
Normal the first think which a printer assistant must learn is how to make the packing.
This is very easy simple write the dimensions on the giulitine and press few buttoms to cut the paper. Whe I was working for an other printer I learned to do it in 24-25 seconds.
But he did not allow me to do, saying that I can not do it, because he wanted to avoid the work with the make ready.
He made the packing always during the make read and he did not cut the paper in guilotine but by hand, slowly slowly until i finish the work.

He humiliated me to avoid the work, Of the supervisor was friend with him and I heard one from the two employers was relative with him.
Simply thing victimize a migrant, block any opportunity, destroy a life, to avoid work.
NO ONE SAW ANYTHING, NO ONE CARE FOR ANYTHING, NO ONE WOUNDER WHY?...?
When I had spoked to union Orginizer about the bad conditions for migrants he was laughing! And I wrote the most members for the union in my workplace!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Groups that are given the victim status seem to be the most racist in this country. Many aboriginals are taught to hate the whites from a young age as they are continually reminded of those 'evil' white 'invaders'. No wonder many of them are so racist against white trash. In South Africa if you are brown skinned, to many you ain't black enough so you will be discriminated against. Yes we Aussies are racist but not nearly as much as France, Germany and most of Europe. The stuck up French are known not to serve people who don't speak the lingo.

When I lived in USA, I found just about every government form carried a requirement for people to nominate their gender and ethnic origin

and depending upon their gender and ethnic origin things like “soft Loans” and government grants, under some notion of affirmative action could be applied for.

Such skewing of economic preference, based on race or gender is

Sexist or Racist

And I wonder how many of the defaulting mortgagees who caused this financial crisis received loans on a “gender” or “racial” preferred basis?

When I lived in UK many people held particularly parochial values. UK has some quaint anomalies, like recognizing where someone comes from because of their accent (Birmingham being more a speech impediment than an accent or dialect) but I recall no special treatment for ones accent, skin colour or gender then, perhaps it has all changed since?

Australia is a tolerant country but the intolerant, like the grumpy old man from the muppets, Sol, is going to find a reason to whine, he is on the nose, a failure and in retreat, nothing to lose but a lot to gain from making himself out to be a victim.. mind you a Mexican heritage is a natural disadvantage, not because of any racist value but a cultural /ethical quality which Mexicans, along with most of Central and South America lack. I recall a tale of some English fellows 150 years ago betting on which would become the next world power, USA or Argentina…

I guess that race to world supremacy has been run and won and the South American came failed to finish… but I still think the reason is because of the deep rooted social values which USA inherited, in large, from colonization by UK, versus the social values South America was left wanting from colonization by Spain and Portugal.

So are Aussies Narrow minded, Prejudiced and Intolerant.. perhaps but most people are and they are free to hold those attitudes…. I know the likes of Sol hold them dear and close… along with hypocrisy and hat dancing.

Why, oh why do Australians have to keep asking themselves such pointless questions? Most nationalities have pride in themselves and their countries. Not Australians! Or, at least not a certain group of Australians who seem to be self-haters and cringers, more interested in what foreigners and a few migrants think than is healthy.

I think “… Australian values…” are a load of crap. No offence to Foxy; she is merely repeating what we hear from mainly politicians and individuals running out of things to say.

As a third generation Australia, I never muse on “Australian values” before I think, say or write anything. My values have been formed by my life experience. I’ve never seen peculiarly Australian values listed in black and white. I think my values are in line with those of other white, European type people all over the world in most areas.

In general, people who single out white Australians to brand as ‘racist’ or ‘xenophobic’ are complete idiots if they are talking about immigration, legal and illegal, and multiculturalism. There are many reasons other than race for my objection to Australian government policy on those matters, and I’m sure, the reasons others take similar views to mine. Yet, I and others have been called racist or xenophobic.

I long ago gave up trying to explain myself because people don’t listen, and still continue with the ‘racist’ nonsense, so I no longer waste time trying to discuss anything with them. If they wish to continue calling me a racist because they don’t like my personal opinions and values, so be it.

So, while my answer to Foxy’s question is a flat NO, if foreigners and some disgruntled immigrants wish to believe that we are racists – so bloody what! Don’t aid and abet them with the big cringe. If some self-hating left-wing Australians think we are racists - again, so bloody what.

To Foxy - “Why is multiculturalism still a problem for some today?” – if you can’t answer that now, you will have to wait until the answer is glaringly evident in the future. There are many, many books that would give you the answer; it has been discussed or at least laid down on OLO many, many times. It appears that you really don’t want an answer and will, therefore, have to wait until the big cultural blow up.

Hello again Antonios

I get your drift about the printer guy, however, your experiences are not exclusive to migrants and I wonder if some migrants are overly sensitive about their “new Australian” status therefore seeing these injustices as racist?

There will always be people in authority who exploit those under their supervision, regardless of the “victim’s” nationality. I recall when I was a naïve but enthusiastic employee in a large department store, where I was selling manchester to the public, the floor manager would, on a daily basis, “squeeze” past me behind the counter – there was plenty of room not to do so.

This gentleman I guess was about forty and married; a close friend of the general manager and I was 17 and intimidated.

One morning, after the usual “scuse me” the floor manager “squeezed” past and “accidentally” latched onto one of my “woofies.” I gave him a good kick in the shins (very therapeutic!) and within an hour, I was walking up the main street, sobbing, clutching a small pay packet and wondering why I was sacked for “entertaining over the counter.”

Years later the tables turned - another story.

I just think Antonios that perhaps you are overly sensitive about your migrant status which could be an impediment to your progress. I daresay that nationalities are barely relevant when the printer and the floor manager select their prey. Remember, like the rest of us, you’re just another Aussie........but don’t go kicking people in the shins – ya hear me?

Giving a physical description of an offender is not in itself an act of racism, except where exists NO clear necessity for such distinction to be made.

Most responses about racism are generated not to address any substantive issues raised, rather such accusations are used to cast aside or discredit speakers. or ideas. in order to avoid or minimize need to seriously address issues raised.

Racial tagging of people is irrelevant, indeed a distraction AND a racist action.

IMHO Sol Trujillo has reasonable claim against some over public "three amigos" style comments, they seek to lead our country yet showed poor leadership concerning our purported values.

IMHO Sol Trujillo took on a difficult job in an area of poor political leadership from most elected representatives, he has achieved considerable change in Telstra which admittedly still has some way to go, and leaves some large gaps.

When is our best not good enough ?

.

Are Aussies - narrow minded, prejudiced
and intolerant?

I'd have to answer truthfully that I feel - like
people everywhere, some are, and some aren't.

We've certainly come a long way however, since the
abolishment of the 'White Australia Policy,'
in 1972.

Australia today has many different national
and religious groups. They print their own
newspapers, teach their own cultures in their
own schools, work amongst their own groups and
even often lead an almost segregated life,
keeping themselves apart from people of other
nationalities. This isn't true of all migrants,
and there is a general belief amongst many that
it is a good thing if migrants keep their pride in
their own ways of life.

We've learned that we do have to make provisions
to enable migrants to get a firm footing in
starting a their life in this country.

We now have migrant accommodation, migrant education
centres, full-time and part-time English courses,
settlement services, bilingual officials and
interpreters when necessary, ethnic radio, bilingual
education, and many other services to help new
migrants to adjust to life in this country.

However on the other side of the coin we have many
Australians who don't want any more migrants, according
to the recent polls. There are many arguments for
sustainability. That the country doesn't have enough
resources to sustain more than certain numbers of
people.

The question is still asked by some,
"Do you believe Australia should become
a multi-racial society?"

The reply in to-day's Australia is:
"It doesn't matter what I think,
I can tell you what it is,
which is a society of tremendous diversity!"

I agree with much of what Leigh had to say.
Prejudices will exist no matter where you
live. It's human nature.

Australia has evolved, and is still continuing
to evolve. However, it is a happier land than
most others.

Foxy I'm sorry but I find the implications of your "it's human nature" or Max's "in our genes" comments as being somewhat shallow and illogical. They both smack of the oft quoted "we are the sole product of our genes" which is absolute determinism by default.

Thus far science tends to support the contention that we are effectively MORE than just the sum of those pesky genes.
While seemingly an arcane point it does have relevance in that we CAN alter the degree of the effect of those genes (free will).

Scientists(?) (research psychologists) have shown that the greater proportion of our behaviour is determined by experience namely culture.
The logical extension of this is that We CAN change/modify our 'human nature' by altering/adapting our cultures.
It has been noted that as all 'rights''freedoms' come with social responsibilities/and limitations.
Logic and anthropology/sociology shows that change the culture and you change the above.e.g. or gender status would be immutable when clearly it isn't.

Once upon a time we feared changes in the celestial firmament now we understand it the fear reduces. The same goes with the history of interracial communication.The keys are effort, education starting with tolerance.

In short Yes we are as you describe but the key question is will it be always? Here evolution answers, only the most adaptable will survive, therefore we as a species either change or go extinct.
Mischievously I might suggest that some antediluvian recalcitrant curmudgeons are candidates for the Darwin awards.

Leigh
Me thinks you protesteth too much.

The more insecure people are,the more racist they tend to be.I mean,we cannot possibly blame ourselves for our own inadaquacies,can we?

Part one
The truth is that when I came to Australia I found that there was a problem for migrants in workplaces. This problem became much bigger when the Liberals won federals elections.
Under these bad conditions for the migrants I decided to fight for migrants rights. I knew my fight will not be easy but some one had to fight for it. I put as central point of my life, as my personal mission in Australia the fight for migrants rights.
I wrote nn the top from my web sites "Antonios Symeonakis is a victim of race discrimination in Australia determind to fight for fight for migrants rights" and I tryied to promote migrants rights. For few years the visits to my web sites was hundrends of thousands per year.
7-8 years before Steve Georganas, now federal MP of ALP invited me to an event of ALP where expected to be the federal shadow minister of imigration. I said to Steve that I wanted to meat the shadow minister. It was my first attempt to try to promote migrants rights in high level.
Steve came in my table with a man who sit next to me and spoke to me me mainly about human rights, etc but not many things about migrants. When he finished I tryed to speak for migrants but Steve interrupted me saying that was not the shadow minister but oposition leader in South Australia Mike Run!(now premier of SA) Big embarasment for me , I never watch TV.
Later Kate Ellis, now federal minister, invited me to an other event to meat the federal shadow minister for immigrasion in Enfieald, where I went and I had the opportunity to speak about the migrants rights
These meatings do not play any important role except if back of them there are many votes!
As union representative and later as counselor of the Union I tried for the creation of a committee for migrants but I found that it will not be easy and I stoped from counselor.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Continue

Part two
I tried to promote migrants interests from the Green party, some people will remember my try to promote migrants rights, BUT Senator Sarah Hanson-Young will remember me from the seminar in Brighton when while speaking with a federal officcer of the Green Party, I called Sarah Hanson-Young to come there and I said to the federal officer "Sara will become Senator!"
In the Green party we created a committee for migrants, but I was not sure if there was a real interest for migrants rights. May be they was not interested for me as my main interest was the migrants.
As I was working seven days per week plus I had my children I tryed to write about migrants on forums, mainly in a forum from a greek newspaper in Melbourne, or in other forums.
I am planing in few years to start a hard work from TV to TV, from newspaper to newspaper, from organization to organization, from street to street to promote migrants rights.
If you heard that I am candidate for a high position in the Union movement you will know that I try to promote migrants rights to Australian Union Movement.
I try to find new ways, on the internet, to promote migrants rights.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

"One word- Xenophobia.
And it's written in our genes, there's no escape.
Education and experience can overcome it, with an effort, but it still lurks, even in the best of us."

Shallow? Illogical?
Care to explain that?
Since it IS in our genes, and I DID say it was possible to deal with it, hence your comment about me claiming it as SOLELY genetic is way off-course, how so you're denigration of my observation?

Maximillion

Are you, therefore, claiming that there is no such thing as free-will? That we are "programmed" to behave a certain way? That we cannot consciously change?

I beg to differ. As someone who has since their teens, suffered from mental illness I have managed to change much of my behaviour in order to function. Psychologists call it cognitive behaviour therapy. Sure there are a minority who will cling tenaciously to a set of beliefs, but the majority of humans actually manage to get over their preconceptions of others by getting to know different people. It is very simple, by becoming familiar with people, finding out that we have things in common is very characteristic human behaviour as well. Otherwise we would've wiped each other out eons ago.

Interestingly, those who argue "it is in our genes" are those who do not wish to change their behaviour - there is a perceived advantage to them to believe they have some kind of superiority over others to prop up their own insecurities. We see examples of this behaviour on religious, immigration and human equity threads.

Are Aussie more narrow-minded, prejudiced and intolerant than other nations? No, there are bigots world-wide, but there are more tolerant people than bigots, therefore your claim of xenophobia being hard wired into everyone is incorrect.

Jewely - we do have a culture. It's one of general tolerance and a fair go for all. I spent 2 years in NZ and saw plenty of racial tension - predominantly between those identifying as Maori and the Pacific Islanders - Tongan, Samoan, Fijian. For a time I lived close to the Auckland suburb of Otara (Once Were Warriors territory) often visiting the Markets there for cheap fruit and vege. Witnessed big blue between group of Maori and Samoan which involved machetes, bloodshed and panic amongst those getting out of the way. Things have changed. Now my NZ friends inform me everyone hates the "Arabs" - the predominately Islamic middle eastern immigrants.

Personally I don't care where you come from, your breed or creed. What does matter is your willingness to make Australia home, to be loyal and uphold her laws, strive to make a good life for yourself and family and contribute to Australian society and the economy through that lifestyle.

Many Australians view immigrants who do not speak English with some suspicion and distain. Likewise those who enclose themselves in "cultural ghettos". Fair enough! Some of us regard certain "cultural practices" likewise. Apart from really unsavoury ones like female circumcision which are illegal, there are some which make the average Aussie uncomfortable. For me an example is the woman in a sack with slits for vision. As far as I'm concerned, in Australian culture only criminals cover their healthy faces as to be unidentifiable.

Often there are groups of immigrants who express distain for our society/culture/country. As far as I'm concerned - #$%# off back to where you came from. These are the people who won't let their children (or in many cases, their womenfolk) mix with other "Aussies"

Australians have generally welcomed genuine newcomers - those that want to make a new start, work hard and take advantage of all that this peaceful, prosperous Nation can offer. When immigrants make the effort to fit in, they generally do and they will do well for themselves.

Fractelle, I'm sorry, what part of.... "Education and experience can overcome it, with an effort," did you NOT understand?
Nurture and nature both contribute, that's beyond question, it's a matter of the degree that gives rise to dispute. I don't hold either as paramount, far too many variables inherent, IMHO.

Maxi

I took your comments in their entirety:

>>"One word- Xenophobia.
And it's written in our genes, there's no escape.
Education and experience can overcome it, with an effort, but it still lurks, even in the best of us."<<

I do not believe it is as hardwired you as you claim. I concur, it is natural to be cautious when encountering the unknown, but this is common sense as opposed to full blown "xenophobia". The term "phobia" should have indicated to you that it is an overreaction rather than a normal reaction. And, yes, phobias can be overcome and it does take hard work.

For reasons stated above, I disagree that xenophobia occurs naturally within all human beings. I normally don't indulge in semantics, but claiming a phobia is in our genes is completely erroneous. I am not having a personal dig at you at all - I find your posts to be very interesting. But I am concerned at the attitude that human behaviour is somehow 'set in concrete' and therefore, we should just give up on working towards a more equitable world. This attitude is often used to excuse behaviour rather than to take responsibility for said behaviour.

Cheers.

Foxy “The question is still asked by some,
"Do you believe Australia should become
a multi-racial society?"”

Well let us consider what is meant by a “multi-racial” society?

1 One where people are recognized as being of a different race, thus making us a “multi-racial society”?

or

2 One where ones racial origins do not matter and we are not a “multi-racial society”?

Imho otion 1 has been tried and practiced most recently in Germany in 1930’s, in South Africa in the 1950’2-70’s and in the Balkans in the 1990’s.

The outcome of each of these attempts at separate racial recognition / multi-racial differentiation has been
Excessive deprivation on the part of many
Death on the part of many
The worst excesses of inter-human abuse ever seen.

Anyone who thinks separate racial development is an ethical option is a fool and you can substitute “Cultural” for “Racial” in that statement too.

Option 2, Cultural and Racial Assimilation is the only successful model to have ever worked.

As for xenophobia… at what point does “a personal pride in family and historic lineage” become a phobia?

Xenophobia is a word bandied around by those who like to polarize discussion, a convenient ad hominine which pretends to characterize a natural human quality as extreme.

Any “character weakness” is more often found more often in those who like to label other people as “xenophobic”, more than in those who are labeled “xenophobic”.

Foxy,

You confuse 'multicultural' with 'multiracial'. The two are different,politically and acutually. We have a multiracial society simply because we have a non-discrimanatory immigration policy. We have had a multicultural POLICY forced on us by politicians without discussion.

examinator,

"Leigh
Me thinks you protesteth too much."

I don't think you have wording quite right, but your comment proves what I said in my first post: that, no matter what, some people will assume my 'racism' no matter what I say. Your Clayton's accusation will also make no difference to my opinions. My opinion of you is that you are a person who thinks name calling makes everyone back off. Not in my case, sunshine. You would be much better off working out your own thoughts - e.g. experience and culture are the same? It is possible to change our genetic make up?

People who make decisions in Australia (politicians) have the same weakness of character and lack of self esteem as you do. And that is what makes Australia a laughing stock to the rest of the world - they think that they can say what they like about us and get away with it.

Other cultures knoe that many Australian get up tight if they are called 'racists', and they use this failing to win arguments and get their own way. The Chinese are masters at using other cultures' weaknesses to get what they want. I know you will say that the last sentence constitutes what you call racism, so you needn't bother to tell me directly.

No worries Fr', I can agree to differ, but only about the hard-wiring aspect, as I said, education, I'm a great supporter, and we look to that to help us achieve greatness if we can, and I live in hope.
I don't hold any negative views about anyone in particular, just individuals, so I at least have un-done the wiring, as nearly anyone can.

PART ONE
Col Rouge
I am not an economic migrant, overseas my salary was about same from my ex sister's salary , a doctor specialist with studies in Athens and London and beter from my ex brother's salary, a qualified account.
I migrated to Australia for various reasons, one of the from stupid promises and lies from my relatives in Australia.
When I came in Australia and I saw the reality I had to decide back or hard difficult work.
I am not from the persons who return back. In the first weeks I paid the deposit from the money I brought from overseas and I bought three units on a big corner block. I paid the mortage from the the rent and of the two units and lived in the other unit.
My ex wife was not ready for hard times, she prefered the easy way, no worries.
When, I applied for devorce we had the three units and an other house. For 6 years in Australia and under bad working and family conditions this was not very bad.
The day I was in the family court for the devorce, my ex wife colapsed mentaly. This was a Disaster for me. I did not know what to do I try to give the best solution for her as her condtions will have effects on my children.
I took her in my home but in her conditions she was dangerous for my children and her self. after some time I decided to imform her relatives overseas about the problem. It was better for her to return back to her relatives. her brother came to take her but she did not go withouht the children. I left my children to go with her, their grandfathers are good persons and I promised my children that any time they will need me I will be there.
When later my daugter said me "dad we need you"
I sold my properties and I went there.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
CONTINUE

PART TWO
Col Rouge
Few years later I returned back, it was Friday and on next monday I started work in my old workplace, 2-3 months later I brought my children in Australia.
Now everthing was different, and much more difficult for me. I gave TOP priority to my children, I did not marry because I did not like to put higher press on my children. Two of my three children finished university, with awards, one of the two continue post studies.
As my children grow up I started to prepare for my self. I opened a computer shop but the sales was not enouph, I moved in a Market with three days per week, the market is in big decline and now I go ONLY in a Sunday market PLUS OF CAUSE I AM WORKING FULL TIME.
Instead of computer products now I put more mobile products, (chargers, wall, usb, car , batteries, cases plus computer staff etc)
The financial crisis minimized the overtime in my workplace and the sales in the markets are very low.
All this things have nothing to do with the fight for migrants rights.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Max, spot on I agree with your principal. I simply don't like it as an argument (mitigation...in the minds of some...an excuse to put in no effort). I'm not giving up on the human species quite yet.

Leigh,
Oh dear, The point I made to you was that the topic WASN'T about you. it was devoid of specifics. The fact that you personalized it says more about you than the topic (PS the bent quote was from Shakespeare)and appeared apt. Your justification was both moot/irrelevant and potentially indicative of defensiveness.

That doesn't mean that I think some of you other points were necessarily wrong but are standard for some one who needs to believe in identification with a nation and therefore believes in national pride.

I thought that previous post would have made it clear that I view Nationalism with some skepticism. Hence my oft quote "patriotism is the last resort of a scoundrel". Therefore your statement that I suffer from cultural cringe is at best moot. A bit like saying that I'm embarrassed by the Pope's utterances...As a humanist I couldn't give a Bullocky's damn (Aussie enough?)for either. I would fight to save lives but to up hold national pride give me a break.
Neither does it mean I am disparaging of those who do.

Next "the culture= experience", My adopted dad suffered for the remainder of his life after being freed from the Burma railway after WW2. To say that was cultural effect is an extra ordinary stretch. He said the worst guards were Korean not Jap. My son is dating a genetic Korean adopted at birth and raised in Aust. My eldest is a Jew and my youngest is dating Ethiopian raised in Jamaica. And the eldest son is dating a Aussie Bogan go figure?

As a matter of fact My last para was not a specific attack on anyone particular least of all you.

ASymeonakis PART ONE and PART TWO

I am really unsure why you made these posts.

All you actually contribute is in your final comment

“All this things have nothing to do with the fight for migrants rights.”

Imho “migrant rights” are no different to citizen rights, except the right to participate in the election of political representatives.

And I express that view not only as an Australian Citizen but also as an Australian immigrant.

If you came to Australia to build some outpost of your motherland, then I wish you every failure.

I came here to assimilate and participate into Australia, not pretend some fealty to some distant image of “home”.

My home is where I live…

I suggest you consider your options because

If “somewhere else” is "home" or means more to you than Australia does…

Why, on earth, are you wasting your time here, when you could be living and (presumably) enjoying life there?

“Jewely - we do have a culture. It's one of general tolerance and a fair go for all. I spent 2 years in NZ and saw plenty of racial tension - predominantly between those identifying as Maori and the Pacific Islanders - Tongan, Samoan, Fijian. For a time I lived close to the Auckland suburb of Otara (Once Were Warriors territory) often visiting the Markets there for cheap fruit and vege. Witnessed big blue between group of Maori and Samoan which involved machetes, bloodshed and panic amongst those getting out of the way. Things have changed. Now my NZ friends inform me everyone hates the "Arabs" - the predominately Islamic middle eastern immigrants.”

Hi Devine, Yep.. in Ch-Ch they don’t like Asians. In Wellington you will find a much better approach to different groups from overseas. Deep South – too cold for anyone too complain to much about anyone else.

The not liking Arabs: I would put money on it coming from Hollywood movies than any personal interaction with them.

In Otara, Papatoetoe etc – best to keep the Maoris fighting with the fobs, keeps them off everyone else’s backs.

“backsAustralians have generally welcomed genuine newcomers - those that want to make a new start, work hard and take advantage of all that this peaceful, prosperous Nation can offer. When immigrants make the effort to fit in, they generally do and they will do well for themselves.”

Genuine newcomers. Pfft. Like me? I do my community thing with foster kids and raise little Aussies, hubby pays stupid amounts in taxes. We bought a house and our kids went through school and now work. We look like Aussies although the accent is a bit dodgy. Kiwi’s “fit” better than anyone.

Sorry Devine but where I am I have been abused by white Aussies for being from somewhere else so they don’t even like the “genuine” ones.

Have you noticed in the news here – they always name a nationality but don’t say anything if it’s an Aussie that did something wrong. Freaky stuff. "A Kiwi and two others..."

Dear examinator,

When I said it's "human nature," to be prejudiced
at no time did I mention that it precluded the will
or the ability to change. Change is a constant,
and it goes without saying that we adapt,
learn and grow. As a matter of fact I did
mention how things had changed since the days of the
"White Australia Policy." How Australia has evolved,
and continues to evolve, and will continue to do so.

Dear Col,

I suppose we do confuse multi-racial and multi-cultural.

I should have made things a bit clearer I guess.

However the point that I was trying to make and I
believe I did state that Australia today is a
society of tremenduous diversity. In some schools,
90 per cent of the students speak a language other
than English as their first language.

The seventies saw tremenduous changes in attitudes
towards migrants. Ethnic radio (radio programmes
broadcasting in many foreign languages), bi-lingual
education, and a new respect for individuality have
made migrants feels more like Australians and less
like outsiders.

cont'd

I think it's interesting to take a look at our
language - which reflects our view of the world,
it's always changing, and shows how we've changed.

New words are being added all the time as discoveries
are made in medicine, science and technology. Words
for things no longer in use are dropped from our
everyday language. For example, words like 'unisex,'
reflect our changed attitudes to men and women. This
word would have been meaningless in past years when
men and women were expected to dress and act differently.

Many 'old fashioned,' words show us very clearly how
people viewed one another.

Females were expected to behave in ways very different
from men. While 'loose morals,' were frowned on by
society in general, there was a tendency to 'look the
other way,' where men were concerned. A man's behaviour
had to be bad for him to be branded, a
'rake,' or 'libertine.' Women whose behaviour was
considered too 'permissive,' were called, 'wenches,'
'hussies,' or 'tarts,' and 'trollops.' Nowadays, we
don't make such a harsh distinction between the sexes,
and so while these words may still be used, the 'sting,'
has been taken out of them.

Europeans who travelled to Australia were often convinced
that the Christian way of life was the only right way, and
therefore many were prejudiced against people of other
religions. Their descriptions of non-Christians as 'heathens,'
'pagans,' and 'non-believers' show us that they considered
people of other faiths to be inferior. In reality, these
people were not non-believers - they were 'believers' of
other faiths and disciplines. These terms today are mostly
used as an exaggerated joke - to make fun of the old ideas.

There are many terms which reflect the feelings of superiority
of some people of one race over people of other races.
For example, 'boong,' referring to Australian Aborigines,
'dago,' referring to Italians, 'wog,' referring to migrants
living in Australia, 'savages,' or 'barbarians,' referring to
natives of non-European lands.

These 'outmoded' words are no longer acceptable to most people.

Foxy,
>>“Prejudices will exist no matter where you
live. It's human nature. “ (does/is it?) Did I misinterpret?
I certainly didn't mean it the way you took it sorry ( where is Romany's word smithing clarity when I need it).

I was pointing out that it appeared that your that the reasoning supporting your comment were a little superficial not deep enough to identify the real cause. My experience with other cultures is that prejudices are culturally and experientially dependent. I've seen cultures that accept other cultures and those that have been taught to fear novelty (like animals that have never experienced humanity)

I would suggest that 'Fear' is universal and is in human nature but the details/ targets are learned.
i.e. When a child I used to run across moss covered logs as bridges over deep gullies thinking nothing of it.. climb 50/70 ft high trees to get a feed of Garlep nuts. Now I'm too s#*t scared....I've learned to be frightened of those situations.
I've seen children handle deadly spiders, scorpions snakes with confidence/respect but without fear.

Prejudices are based on fear...fear of change of the unknown the possibility of the consequences to being isolated without the security of the group. (socialisation)
The same reasoning applies to what we fear. Cultures are and inculcate the list of fears in extreme cases these fears turn into phobias and Xenophobia is just one there of.

I made the point change adapt the culture and you change the list of fears

Col nationalistic pride etc. is another learned mind set/ potential prejudice. One that is superficial/emotionally based. A bit like allegiance to a football team.

Fractelle
There is some interesting articles on this and in relationship to those who have been isolated due to mental illnesses and subsequent responses to socialisation. quite different to expectations.

Max
The above applies but in your case subsequent posts clarify your stance. Sorry if I got it wrong.

"Prejudices are based on fear...fear of change of the unknown the possibility of the consequences to being isolated without the security of the group. (socialisation) The same reasoning applies to what we fear. Cultures are and inculcate the list of fears in extreme cases these fears turn into phobias and Xenophobia is just one there of."

How come it is only when people are feeling very brave, like in a group, that the prejudices come out? Or is it that they don’t want to separate from the group so they spread their phobias that they may not individually believe in or didn’t till they joined the pack.

So are white Aussies scared? Is that why they are so racist? (Okay the ones I personally have met )

It’s who we hang with aye, or we wouldn’t know. In Saudi I got the whole vibe about all western women are tarts. I was there long enough to believe it, didn’t matter that I was one.

“i.e. When a child I used to run across moss covered logs as bridges over deep gullies thinking nothing of it.. climb 50/70 ft high trees to get a feed of Garlep nuts. Now I'm too s#*t scared....I've learned to be frightened of those situations.”

You were a crazy kid Examination. Must say, kids don’t have a lot of body protecting fears, they need us grown ups to be afeard for them. I have had Arab kids, Samoans, Maoris, Aboriginal, Russian, and lily white Aussies – you’re right none of them were scared of me.

That fear of “others”, the X word, must come quite a lot later. But even little ones have a built in culture, way of doing things, what and who they respect is obvious. Nup I can’t even describe it without going all OUG on you with the combination of words to get across a lack in the English language.

Foxy, get me citizenship and I wont feel like an outsider!

Sol Trujillo was born in the USA.People in the USA are more politically correct that us.We cut to the chase and call a spade a shovel.In the USA if there is crime area made up of maily black people they mention it by innuendo rather than saying what they really think.

Our culture has the habit of being being honest and saying what we think.If this makes us backward and in the eyes of Sol racist,I would prefer to remain backward.

Adios amigo,Sol.I'm sure the millions you took from Telstra will more than compensate for your ineptitude and your wounded pride.

Dear examinator,

I've always thought that the disputes among
racial and ethnic groups were not really about
racial or ethnic differences; they were about
the use of such differences to create and
preserve inequality in the competition for
scarce resources. So, wherever different
groups compete for the same resources -
blacks and whites for power and wealth in South
Africa, settlers and indigenous tribes for the
possession of the Brazilian hinterland, Israelis
and Palestinians for the same piece of territory -
intergroup hostility is the result, particularly
if the groups remain unequal and one of them is
able to exploit or victimize the other.

In fact hostilities may subside if the sub-ordinate
group is able to gain greater equality with the
dominant group. The strong hostilities that
originally existed in Australia against the Italians,
Poles, Germans, Balts, Greeks, and so on has gradually
lessened as these groups have gained entry to the broad
Australian middle class, where they are seen as equals
rather than as rivals.

The ideology of racism is the belief that one racial
or ethnic group is inferior to another and that
unequal treatment is therefore justified.

Of course - fear does play a part as well. Those who
were racially or ethnically akin to the dominant
group (white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant) were accepted
fairly readily. Such as the Scandinavians, the Balts,
and Germans.
Those who were different - such as the Lebanese,
Turks, and so on - faced much more prejudice and
discrimination.

Dear Jewely,

I thought you were a citizen.
I'll have a few words with the PM!

examinator,

“As a matter of fact My last para was not a specific attack on anyone particular least of all you”, you say in response to my post.

I’m sorry my friend, but it was addressed ( I didn’t see it as an attack) to me IN PARTICULAR. You put my name on it! It’s no big deal, but have another look: you said, “Leigh
Me thinks you protesteth too much.”

Had you not addressed the remark to me, I would not have responded. Are you sure that you know what you are posting?

If you are sceptical about ‘nationalism’, your interpretation of the word must be different from mine. I’m somewhat alarmed, though, that you are not patriotic. Being patriotic doesn’t mean the same as ‘jingoistic’, which is a problem that many of the people of countries who might one day be threat to us go in for. Nor does it mean hairy-chested aggression and the ‘my country right or wrong’ muck.

"The not liking Arabs: I would put money on it coming from Hollywood movies than any personal interaction with them."

"It’s who we hang with aye, or we wouldn’t know. In Saudi I got the whole vibe about all western women are tarts. I was there long enough to believe it, didn’t matter that I was one."

Aah - Jewely methinks your words from the latter post sum up why Kiwi friends and in-laws (yes I married one & he's managed to fit in very sucessfully despite never-ending sheep jokes thank-you) say 'everyone hates the arabs'. I get the impression that 'native' Kiwis (whatever their racial background) think that many Middle Eastern newcomers expect extraordinary respect and tolerance for their beliefs and 'culture' while expressing contempt for the lifestyle and beliefs of many of their host countrymen.

I sense a comparision with attitudes of certain similar groups here in Australia ...mmmmm?

I have encountered some of these migrants through work in public health. Most were very nice people but those (males) that weren't were pig-ignorant, arrogant %$#*& of the very highest order. Nobody in the middle ... The only satisfaction one had from any encounter was they had to tone down the behaviour or we would have them removed. Some of the attitudes towards women and children are extremely disturbing. "I kill my daughter if she go out in the street in those clothes ..." referring to a teenage bystander in a short skirt and tank-top and this SOB is serious. We don't need that 'culture' here thank-you.

It all comes down to what I've said earlier - come here with the right attitude, leave your crap behind, practice your traditions that are acceptable to the Australian way of life and be prepared to drop those that aren't ...

So what's keeping you from getting citizenship Jewely? You'd be the first Kiwi I know having trouble bar those with some sort of 'black mark' eg criminal conviction, visa transgressions from other Commonwealth nations or AFP security concerns ..... or have things changed drastically in the past 2 -3 years ??

Jewely
Crazy child what make you think I've changed *that* much?
In truth I did no more than the native children , my play mates. Their parents used the same logs for the same purpose, well walking anyway. Instead of the don't do that etc. they taught us how to do the right way. The Garlep nut gathering was standard fare... My point is it's the culture you're raised with that helps breeds fears/ prejudices.
Years ago I remember seeing a southern white 4 yo being interviewed on TV she proudly said ''I hate n#gg*rs “ But when asked what one was and why the child returned a blank look …..Taught prejudices.

You are right that mobs tend to exist even comprising of otherwise sensible people who after the even are appalled at what they've done. There are several famous experiments that emphasise group thinking and what people will do rather than be seen as a dissenter to the mass justifying as they went . Germans aren't some evil alien being yet they permitted horrors beyond modern sensibilities. One of the key issues was the cynical manipulation of patriotism and self interest.

Foxy
On one level you are absolutely correct however if you drill down a bit more for some commonality you find 'fear' is the real cause. I remember as a child the fear of waiting for corporal punishment was far worse than the actual punishment.

When I was a medium wheel in business I was afraid of losing everything and identified myself by my position. I discovered that the sun still shone and I could still enjoy life without all the trappings most of which I didn't really need . Likewise I was now a person not a state General Manager( a temporary activity/title). True it came with painful adjustments but now I'm involve in the real world and I'm not ducking and weaving to avoid the spectral slings and arrows of corporate adversity.

Consider the difference between want and need. Israel/ Palestine conflict. The national pride etc. at play.

Hi Divine,

I personally think everyone is interesting but I am lucky that I was in the part of Saudi that is really strict so I learnt more and that they really really liked Kiwis. Something about during the war the Kiwis ran the stores so if you were Arab and you wanted anything it was known “go ask the Kiwis”. Arabs and respect, there just aren’t many in NZ so not thought about until some movie comes on.

Don’t know with Aussie, still haven’t figured it out (sorry Banjo) but I keep asking Australians and they don’t know either.

Yeah the sheep jokes, weird huh. Much better jokes are made up about every other culture here and of course it doesn’t affect the Kiwi females. Overseas everyone thinks Kiwi’s are part Australian anyway and no point in explaining differently really.

Oh the kill my daughter thing, gawd they’re cute. Amazing that they do it too. I met far too many white women who had married Arabs and were abused and trapped after breeding. I was useful on the compound, wives would call and I’d go talk the Arab hubbys down. Bit exhausting really. Got back to NZ and was still doing it with Samoans and boy are they harder to distract.

“Right attitude”… see Maoris have similar feelings. Personally you can come anyway you want and we’ll work around it – like fostering kids I guess. Accepting where they have come from then taking it from where they’re at because it works better.

I knew I was weird. People die cause of boarders and they can’t migrate, I don’t like it.

Citizenship. I stare at the centrelink site and don’t get it. I filled in the papers, paid money went to interview and nup didn’t have “recidency”. Two and half hour drive to Sydney with three little Aussie kids just to be turned around, can’t work it out. No refund either. I got here April 2006.

“Years ago I remember seeing a southern white 4 yo being interviewed on TV she proudly said ''I hate n#gg*rs “ But when asked what one was and why the child returned a blank look …..Taught prejudices.”

Haha… hey got a couple of white male toddlers not too long ago, they used to run around going ”bang bang kill the N’s”. There was another little toddler here who happened to be one, they all just played.

One place I lived in NZ a little two year old would pop in and his greeting was “F U white B!tch”. Bless him, he always got a biscuit. The first story, they stopped just by me doing nothing, they forgot. The other one, he’ll be about 14 now and probably still greeting white women the same way.

“... Germans aren't some evil alien being yet they permitted horrors beyond modern sensibilities. One of the key issues was the cynical manipulation of patriotism and self interest.”

Do you think Patriotism or Religion has bonded people to do more wrong over time? Patriotism seems to have one figure head as the key?

I think what has kind of been decided is maybe Aussie is such a mix that there is no easy answer right now? It has to age and blend a bit more for the peoples to go in a common direction? There is probably some responsibility on white Aussies to get in there amongst it and let the new “groups” know who you are. And if I get citizenship anytime soon I can do my bit better!

Dear examinator,

In Australia - prejudice has existed from
the first days of colonisation. Prejudice
against convicts, the military, the Aborigines,
the Irish, the Chinese in the goldfields,
the Catholics and the Protestants. Anything and
anyone that didn't look the same, spoke the same,
dressed the same, believed the same - was grounds
for prejudice. And progressively, new people,
new cultures, new politics, proliferates prejudice.

This is true in any culture, in any land, on any
continent.

People who are prejudiced against one minority,
tend to be prejudiced against others. The source of
prejudice appears to be mainly psychological.
However, people's personalities - including their
thoughts and feelings develop in, and are shaped by,
their social context. That is, if there is
inequality, competition, and minimal contact between
groups, prejudice can develop unchecked.

The mistake people make is to react to prejudice,
instead of being secure in their own self and
setting their own course through life.

Are Aussies - narrow minded, prejudiced and intolerant?
Hell Yes!
The last few days have definitely confirmed that to me.
Can't even invent a new punctuation mark without everyone complaining.
What a shower of control freaks!

Australians are no more narrow minded, prejudiced and intolerent than any other nation. We are better than many and worse than some. Better than some probably due to a self deprecating humour, she'll be right mate and laid back attitude.

I think all human beings tend to group people or stereotype people whether consciously or unconsciously - the trick is to recongise that and try not to judge according to the stereotype.

One-to-one people are far less prejudiced, in my experience most people take others as they are regardless of colour, race or creed. Having been to places in Asia I understood for the first time what it must feel like to stand out and be different. I remember being the only white person in a department store food court in Japan and the object of much interest and in some cases I am sure I detected a bit of scorn or resentment - not sure which.

Multi-culturalism, advances in information technology and sharing of that information are relatively new and technological advance always takes off faster than human awareness on how to deal with the impact of change. Perhaps its part of our survival biology and we feel more secure with those we perceive as like-minded including the way we look. Racism may be a way of saying that 'we' are okay it is not us but 'them' and until we become more secure (as Foxy put it) in our individual identities this cultural awareness may take some time.

Will we ever see a time when it really doesn't matter what race or colour we are? And if so will we just find another thing to differentiate us. In old England with a total white population the issue was class and position.

There always seems to be a differentiator even it changes over a period of time.

PART ONE FROM MANY PARTS.
Are working conditions for migrants OK? NO!
There is a huge problem with migrant's training in workplaces.
The companies do not like to spend money for migrant's training even if they born here but they do not belong to the privilaged race.
For example for about 6 years I was operating a Hidelberg Platen machine, varnishing wine labels, BUT never, NO one trained me how to operate the machine, or what is the good varnish! From the law they had to train me first and after to put me to operate the machine. As I was cleaning the floor or the machine I saw what the printers did and I learned. In a seminar for the varnish, they left me varnishing and send for the seminar two other employees, (non migrants) one of them in few weeks lost his job (redudancy) and the other moved to an other section!
When later I moved in other better machine, in my first week on this machine the supervisor said me that I put the blade wrong and that the machine cost more than 4 millions of dollars. I said to him that I did not put the blade but my trainer, (an other assist Printer) when Supervisor asked him why he put the plate wrong he answered ,that NO ONE said him about the blade.
People did wrongly their job for many years but he blame me for what I did not do and I did not know as I was in my first week on this kind of machines.
The company used two kind of trainings internal from an other person from the company or with professional trainers. The training from professionals is valid for other companies as professionals know their job, what and how to train employees.
One time when I was "training" I cut the streeps of paper with an other way than my trainer said me. When he saw it he was angry and he started pushing me out from the premises, yelding that he suck me!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Continue

PART TWO FROM MANY PARTS.
I asked the leader of the sift what is this? and he answerd me that printers ALWAYS have right, but he was not printer and NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT FOR PHYSICAL ABUSE.
I am there more than 15 years but I never had any kind of training by professional trainer BUT I do not know if there is any one from the privilaged race withouht training from professional trainer.I was surprized when the company changed the Scandinavian women from the quality control, she was there for many years and put an other woman (from the privilaged race) who had no idea from the job. The managment said that they prefered the other women because she knew EXCEL the position was about typing but controling the quality of the labels, THEY COULD TRAIN THE SACANDINAVIAN WOMAN, THEY TRAINED OTHER PEOPLE WHY NOT THE MIGRANT? Soon the new one suck and the woman now did not know excel or anything about labels.
When Scandinavian woman learned that the other women replaced her she had mental problems and never returned back.
In an other section where are working women most if not all of them, women from the privilaged race was trained by professionals, I do not know if any women from the non privilaged race if had this kind of training
Withouht training migrants do the worst jobs, have no change to improve their position, they can not find an other job as they are withouht training, withouht skills and of cause they come first in redudancy. I remember some years before, when many employee lost their job, while the non privilaged race employees was about 14% of all employees, more than 30% of the employees who lost their job was from them.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
CONTINUE

PART THREE FROM MANY PARTS.
One time I was sick for one day I took the certificate from the doctor, I gave to supervisor to signe it, as he did, but the company did not pay me. I had to ask the union for the sick leave payment. I do not take sick leave often, last year year I did not take any!
An other time, about 15 years before phoned me my brother, they said that I was busy and they closed the phone. Every day many people are on the phone, an assist printer was busy! I was sole parent with three children, I leaved my children alone at home and in my workplace blocked a phone for but not for eny one else. I said my children to phone me in my workplace only in extrem cases, and in more than 15 years they phoned me not more than 5 times.
BUT IF SOMETHING HAPPENED IN MY CHILDREN AND THEY TRY TO PHONE ME WITHOUHT SUXXESS, THEN ONLY ALL NATO's TANKS COULD STOPED ME NOT TO RETALIATE!
Some years before I was surprized when I saw a Jew printer crying. I asked him why was crying and he said me that the supervisor pressed him he saw me something on his machine and said me that if he put it with one or the other way the supervisor shouted him.
Althouht I weas a bastard ofsider migrant from an other section I went to supervisor and asked him why press the jews man. He was angry with me and said me "if you was in my position you would worst to him."
The jews printer was there for many years withought problems and I asked him what he thought was the reason for supervisors behave.
He said me that he has this problem because his mother was jews (his father was from hungary).
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
CONTINUE,

PART FOUR FROM MANY PARTS.
One other time I saw a german background supervisor crying, I asked her why was crying and she said me that the managment humiliated her, she never returned back to her job, later I lerned that she changed very much, that she become strange!
I was surprised when a qualified printer from Italian background that he resigned few weeks later after his honeymoon, (married) I asked him why he resigned and he said me that he was angry with the managment and after I learned he was working as floor cleaner.
One time when I went to my work, then afternoon sift, I found an Italian background new printer assist to try to put varnish but as he did not that we had funnel for it, he used paper but it bend and the varnish spread every where, few metyres farther was the printer lauphing. I went strait to product manager and immediatly he put the new assist in other machine.
In other post I wrote that a printer did not allow me to have lunch for two weeks and when the supervisor asked him why he answered that he had not lunch too, probably he thought that I was his personal slave, I have even a worst case when I was sick with certificate from doctor and when an other assist came to replace me, then I did not have lunch too.
One Friday, I was working afternoon sift in one machine and continue in this machine for the night sift with an other printer, (I worked many times two sifts continously) this afternooon we lost our time on color match (I was wishing all time and ink man made new inks) close to end of the sift the printer said me to put the ink we rejected at begin. I aked him why we lost all our night if the first ink was OK. He answered to me that he wanted to leave the job for the other printer, who cwill continue after him. I was worried because
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
CONTINUE

I am sorry you have these memories Antonios.

Hopefully it was understood by management one day how shameful it was to treat others like this.

And if not, I wish them a knee in the crotch by a carpet layer.

Dear Antonios,

You've certainly posted quite a few words on
your employment problems.

I think most of us on this Forum would
share my concern for the situations you
describe.

I presume that you are not able to leave the job,
otherwise you would have done so.

You really don't need all this stress - it's
not good for your health.

I do have two questions.

How long have you been in Australia?

How long have you been in your current job?

Foxy
Like I said you are right. My SUGGESTED perspective was to drill down deeper in to the causes of prejudices otherwise your list prejudices would be virtually never ending .
The only way I can make sense of it is to look for commonality of cause (of prejudices).
Evidence is quite clear in that most prejudice is fear based.
As I also pointed out several examples of how although fear is built into DNA part of the flight or fight defences the actual causes are generally learned.
That comes about largely by experiences and culture.
There are cultures that don't teach fear of different cultures this in turn leads us to the reasonable conclusion that change (adapt) the culture and much of the fears dissipate along with the prejudices.
By this reasoning the once impossible task is at least within the realms of possibility.
I note that even on Q&A they all referred to racial prejudice as being fear based.
As evidence of this I refer to the doco the other night which traced the origins of current prejudices towards Arabic people and Islam back to conditioning due to their stereotypical depiction in the movies.
A question posed was would we be happy to accept the same evil two dimension depiction of say women, Jews and afro Americans. The clear answer is no.
Consider the decades long campaigns in Aus 'red under the bed ' and the 'yellow hoards' both were used to justify our involvement in a war.....Vietnam and their twin Iraq.
Fear is clearly an excellent motivator/ source of manipulation.

Leigh
The comment “me thinks …...” was explained
I assumed your extended offense seemed to be in answer to the last line of the above comment. If not then your logic escapes me totally.
Sometimes it's difficult to work out who reads what and what their comment refer to.

Examinator

Your last post expresses my understanding of the fundamental reason for prejudice. So I don't have much to add really, except to say that humans are malleable, therefore I have hope that we (all humans) can learn to get along with each other. Also that Aussies are more tolerant than some cultures and less tolerant than others.

Antonios

Your experience at work, sounds very similar to what happened to me - I would, therefore, suggest that your situation is a form of bullying. You don't have to be a migrant to be bullied - you just have to be considered a target by a bully. Only you can decide for yourself what action to take, but if you cannot change the environment in which you work to something that is not so toxic, please consider changing jobs. I know this is not easy, but your long term health is at stake.

Regards

Exam', you claim that fear is the root of xenophobia.
Care to explain that?
Looks like plain semantics to me, surely one could as easily say that the fear is a reaction caused by the phobia?
Also, you claim that it's culturally learnt, so, care to tell me which culture has no 'phobia?
There is a trend nowadays to assign PC causes to things, and tout that as gospel truth, with little other than semantic or statistical evidence.
I find this a fallacy, and it stifles true debate and investigation/exploration of ourselves.
Xenophobia is a trait exhibited by virtually all animals that live in groups, oh, but that's right, humans aren't animals, their above them, higher-beings, god-copies, therefore our reactions and instincts can't possibly be the same/similar, can they?
See what I mean? Semantics, and hubris.

“Your experience at work, sounds very similar to what happened to me - I would, therefore, suggest that your situation is a form of bullying. You don't have to be a migrant to be bullied - you just have to be considered a target by a bully.”

Hi Fractelle, if the “bully” picks on people because of them being a particular race that is a different story though aye. Being “racist” to me implies actions of a bullying nature because of the victims heritage?

Was your story about the woffies? That is sexual abuse isn’t it? If bullied by someone because of your gender and in a sexual way?

I sort of got the impression that Antonios stories were from a long time ago. Antonios?

Jewely

A bully will find a target for as many reasons as there are human beings. If I wasn't so obviously Anglo-Celtic in appearance, I could've assumed that my appearance was a motivating factor, (maybe it was, maybe jealously was involved, I don't know).

In Antonius' case maybe racism was a factor, but bullies only operate if they think they can get away with their games. Tricky trying to work out their motivation.

A couple of questions to ask might be: Are racists more likely to abuse people, than non-racists? Can a bully be racially tolerant?

"A couple of questions to ask might be: Are racists more likely to abuse people, than non-racists? Can a bully be racially tolerant?"

Oh I get you Fractelle, yes a bully could well just bully everyone not caring about who they are or where they come from. And I guess a racist only displays this behavior when they can see their chosen target.

Is this right?

Jewely

That's exactly what I meant. In my case I was bullied by white females. Make that of it what you will.

I have also encountered sexual harassment in the workplace - by both sexes, but mostly men.

No easy answers are there?

PART 5
FOXY I AM WORKING FROM THE BEGIN IN THE SAME COMPANY, ABOUT 16 YEARS.

They use us as eskape goats.
Next Monday morning I went close to printer, intenting that I was cleaning, to hear what ecxuse he will use.
The printer was angry! " Fac*en Tony (me) he does not know his job! He blamed me for long time. . The Supervisor said to him "OK for Tony, (he did not like me) but what about Damien?" Few months later the printer lost his job.
One morning I saw on the board in the kithcen of my workplace a photo with Muslim girls and a bad comment, I aked the woman who was responsible for the kitchen to remove the photo, but other employees opposed to my idea, I threatened to phone the Human Rights Commission.
The jew printer was member from the Union and left his job for health reasons, the German background supervisor was member of the union, she was active unionist and active in not government organizations, the scandinavian woman was member from the Union, I have been member from the union.
When I become union representative in a visit from the union organizer I heard him saying that many places wanted printers etc but he left the migrants, member of the union, to colapse.
All supervisors was member from the union, EVEN the manufacturer manager later he gave me his resignation from the union.
Can we IMPROVE THE WORKING CONDITIONS FOR MIGRANTS
YES but we must change some simple things.
The managment in the lower level is TERIBLE WRONG.
THEY HAVE NO IDEA FOR EMPLOYEES RIGHTS, NO IDEA FOR EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES, NO IDEA HOW TO SOLVE CONFLICTS BETWEEN EMPLOYEES THEY DO NOT KNOW TO LISTEN AND MANY TIMES THEY DO NOT KNOW THEIR JOB, AS PRINTERS ETC.
The union movement HAS A HUGE PROBLEM, WE MUST CHANGE MANY THINGS IF WE WANT AN EFFECTIVE UNION MOVEMENT, NO TIME FOR SUGGESTIONS but I can write a book about it!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Jewely
"Antonios stories were from a long time ago. Antonios?"
90% of them less than 7 years, but some much less!
Jewely I need my job OK?

“"Antonios stories were from a long time ago. Antonios?"
90% of them less than 7 years, but some much less!
Jewely I need my job OK?”

Yep, I understand completely Antonios. I want to care for children and you would be amazed at how I have been treated and how it has been used to punish and silence me. People put up with stuff when others hold all the cards.

Fractelle:“I have also encountered sexual harassment in the workplace - by both sexes, but mostly men.”

So sexual harassment isn’t a gender thing at all then.

“No easy answers are there?”

I’m starting to realise how difficult it all is. Next time some dude calls me a name I have to check if he is a bully, a sexist, or a racist. Certainly would be easier to just knee them in the crotch and walk on.

"Next time some dude calls me a name I have to check if he is a bully, a sexist, or a racist. Certainly would be easier to just knee them in the crotch and walk on."

ROFL

Well they're all just bullies - knee 'em all I say.

The thing they all have in common is that they think they can get away with their behaviour. Antonius' fear of losing his job is what gives the bullies their power over him in his job. And his story, unfortunately, is not uncommon - management is often either indifferent to the behaviour of staff or actually in collusion with it - the culture of a workplace is often a reflection of its leaders.

Dear examinator,

I've always understood prejudice to be an opinion
formed without taking the time or care to judge
fairly. Such an opinion may be favourable or
unfavourable and is held without regard to the
available evidence. In this thread prejudice
refers to an unfavourable opinion held in this way
about the members of a particular social group.

Prejudiced individuals tend to twist, distort,
misinterpret, or even ignore facts that conflict with
their predetermined (pre-judged) opinions.

For example a prejudiced person might believe that
all individuals of a certain age, national origin,
race, religion, sex, or region of a country, are
lazy, violent, stupid, emotionally unstable, or
greedy.

Because of prejudice, many people have been denied
equal chances for jobs, housing, education, and
participation in government.

You tell me that prejudice is fear based.
I feel that a number of elements may contribute to
prejudice. These elements include -

1) Competition.
2) Religious ideas.
3) Fear of strangers.
4) Extreme nationalism.

Prejudice may develop when one group fears that
competition from another group will deprive them
of prestige, privilege, political power, or economic
opportunities. Religious ideas - especially a lack of
tolerance for religions other than one's own - have
contributed to prejudice against certain races and religious
groups. Some people have a natural fear of strangers.
Extreme nationalism may cause prejudice by encouraging
people to regard foreign characteristics as inferior.

However, not all people accept the prejudices of their
communities. Some people are more likely to form
prejudices than other people are. The difference depends
on variations in individual experiences and background.

Education, certain types of contact between groups, and
institutional change may help reduce prejudice.

Dear Fractelle and Jewely,

I'm sorry to hear of your bad experiences.

I've also had my share both at high school and at work.

But, as they say, "... it makes you stronger" (with the help
of family and friends).

I may have told this story earlier - but I'll tell it again...

cont'd.

cont'd...

This happened a few years ago to my husband.

He was in between jobs at the time and was
having several health problems, so he went
to a public hospital for some tests.

While waiting an elderly nurse approached him
and glancing at his foreign surname, asked
him, speaking very loudly, and enunciating
every word slowly,

"Do you need an interpreter?"

To which my husband, replied very calmly in
his Oxford English accent...

"Why, doesn't the doctor speak English?"

Dear Antonios,

Thank you for answering my question about
how long you've been in your current job.

16 years in any job - is a pretty good run,
and you obviously must be a valued employee
to have kept your job for this period of
time.

I can understand your reluctance to leave
the place - especially in these difficult
economic times. Many people have lost/or
are about to lose their jobs.

From your last post though, - it sounds as if you've
got things under control - and you know how
to deal with difficult situations.

I wish you continued success - and a better
and brighter future, with much less stress.

Foxy
The job I do is for idiots! all these 16 years many people passed from there and all improved their position except from me!
Do you thing I will accept it? At the end I will see what kind of anwser I will give for this problem , ALREADY THE UNION PAID FOR IT.
I am preparing to give my answer for it!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Max , foxy everyone

Max my eyebrows aren't bushy enough for me to suffer from hubris.:-)

At the risk of increasing Max's concern about me being unduly semantic.
to me Phobias are extreme irrational fears....spiders, snakes, strangers, others cultures Crossing ravines on moss covered fallen logs Some huge some as little as 20 cm carrying livestock babies, provisions etc..

The PNG native children/adults I ran with weren't phobic about any of the above...they had not been taught to be. The whole culture was about understanding and surviving with their environment and did all of the above as a matter prosaic course.

They feared the spirits hence they had Taboos. They were fearful of upsetting the Duk Duk (medicine man, conduit to the spirits etc.)
I saw the odd crazy (dementia in various forms) and even they weren't prejudiced against. By and large phobias and stress are white men's problems. (culturally induced)
They used the lower brain/DNA fear is used constructively for what it evolved for defence.

Indigenous cultures tend to have explanations for their environments natural and social and accept that which they can't change. Simplistic it may be but they were content in their structures.
Most of their 'wars' had practical prosaic driving forces yes there were some elements of fear. The only creed wars I/my father encountered were instigated by whitey's church bigotry. i.e. a Catholic converted tribe V Adventist converted tribe....over which day to worship in their minds determining authenticity of their God.

Clearly this isn't noble savage stuff in some way their cultures were often crude, brutal nor should we adopt them en toto.

I am suggesting:

Adapt better to our realities

Adopt what is good and works from all cultures and reject the rest.

Indigenous cultures prize higher brain 'free will' over acting on lower brain functions albeit in a context.
I reject the too hard file of endless prejudices in favour of solution to attack the problem at its base fear etc.

Max/Foxy that's the best I can do in the space if you want more trawl through my posts or contact me.

Every day lazy, dirty, cheap people humiliate migrants in their workplaces, victimize migrants, brake mentaly migrants.
Every day many migrants crying return to their home , crying leave their job, bringing their families, their children in horible conditions.
I promised to Italian Jowane, to German Renato, to Jews Pawl, to Scandinavian Ann, to Asian Sheng and Muslim Aisha (I am atheist) that I will fight for their rights...
I have tried ... I contacted the local media but they do not publish this kind of stories.
I wrote to authorities, I contacted politicians, I wrote in many places.
I use in the forums my real name because I want to tell every one that I write real stories, I am real interested for migrants rights. That I want the creation of a national committee which will fight for migrants rights.
I will continue my fight.
If close to my END I will see that I did not do for migrants enouph,MAY BE I HAVE TO CALL JURNALISTS AND CORESPONDENS FROM INTERNATIONAL MEDIA AND BURN MY SELF, A LAST TRY FOR A SERIOUS DISCUSSION FOR MIGRANTS PROBLEMS IN WORKPLACES.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide.

Fractelle:”The thing they all have in common is that they think they can get away with their behaviour. Antonius' fear of losing his job is what gives the bullies their power over him in his job. And his story, unfortunately, is not uncommon - management is often either indifferent to the behaviour of staff or actually in collusion with it - the culture of a workplace is often a reflection of its leaders.”

I know, I am only a volunteer but stuck with the most bizarre management problems. Of course I did complain and have done nothing but suffer for it the last three months. I even had it confirmed recently that a punishment for me is in place. It matters not that by punishing me little children are included. I am new here but before I complained I was told by other volunteers that this punishment would happen as it is very common and that is why others do not complain.

Having not stuck this attitude before I am spewing that this internal culture exists in an organization that should be fully focused on helping children. But Fractelle they do always get away with this behavior.

Antonios, you do what you feel you need to but maybe anything too extreme will make people think you might be a little crazy so wont listen to what what made you act this way.

Exam, very good post, thank you.
Here’s a simple test..Take any baby under six months and put it on a glass table.
That’s not taught, it’s instinctual, genetic. Chuck the same baby into a pool, it will hold it’s breath, open its eyes, and swim, also NOT taught, genetic. This applies to any human baby from any part of the world, and is well documented. The basic survival instincts are there, and xenophobia is one of these. Those PNG natives have been taught, but taught to ignore the basic fear instinct, just as we can easily be taught to ignore our instinctive xenophobia.. What’s the easiest way to de-sensitise a phobia? Exposure, and rationality. It works, and is applicable to any of our instincts.
Oh, and don’t worry, the Hubris referred to was in the approach, not the person, I value your posts and enjoy far more than I respond to.
There is altogether too much interpretation of native cultures and history in terms of the new PC view of the world, and claiming that a culture of billions of people can use simple village ways to solve problems on a multi-national scale is patently impossible, that’s the source of most of our modern problems, the fact that we we’re never “designed” to exist in these numbers, our success will be our downfall, sort of thing.
Try this, imagine that xenophobia IS genetic, and try to see the world in terms of it being a survival-trait, you’ll be surprised how well the glove fits. It is NOT written in stone, merely chemicals, and hence is an influence, a drive, not over-ruling, our conscious minds rule!

Put together in a play-pen an Asian, European, Anglo-Saxon and African baby and they will play.

They will continue to play together until they are taught by others to exclude.

A phobia is an irrational fear - it is not instinctive, it is learned.

It is normal to be fearful of the unknown, but it is IRRATIONAL when that fear is taken to extremes, such as not being able to get in lifts (claustrophobia) or hating everyone who is not Asian (xenophobia). And here's the good news, phobias can be cured. Many people get treatment for their fear of flying, spiders, open spaces, different people through familiarity.

Suggest you do some research, please. Just starting here is enough:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia

You will find the definition for xenophobia in the above link:

"Xenophobia - fear or dislike of strangers or the unknown, sometimes used to describe nationalistic political beliefs and movements."

Foxy

Terms like "nationalistic pride" are the surface of the issue. At the core of these terms is irrational fear/hatred. The Cronulla riots are an example of this. The thugs who draped themselves in Australian flags have no more in common with me than the fact they were born here. I have more in common with friends I have made from around the world - nationality has nothing to do with any of it - hatred is the motivating factor, patriotism the excuse.

Jewely

It is near impossible to change workplace culture unless it starts at the top. Some reading for you:

http://www.reachout.com.au/default.asp?ti=1666

Max and others

My approach hasn't got bushy eyebrows either :-)

Jokes asides you raise an interesting cultural point . While English is my native tongue one can't shake the Jesuit boast “give me the boy and I'll give you the man” (indoctrination). During those 'formative years” I lived in comparative white isolation .
Most of the PNG cultures languages are literal. Hence I was raised with this mind set.

Even (mumble mumble ) years later I still need to do translations on phrases/meanings that have phatic (social) connotations .
e.g. ''how are you” is not a request for information.

Often when I say “I have concerns with.... and here's why” I mean exactly that nothing more. However in Aussie speak some interpret that as “You're wrong and here's why.”

Two corollaries here.
1.I am often misinterpreted in the way you did. Such is my life. :-\

2.Much of my thinking is on the bridge between cultures not really in either. Hence the lack of affinity with either bias. My thinking/communication are clear examples of what I mean when I point out cultural learning.

I still question Max's use of the word Xenophobia (extreme irrational fear of difference).

There is an important difference between wary, fear and phobia.
Your example of the baby...That infant will pick up a spider and mouth it (no fear/phobia) this is their genetic way of sensing learning.
My mum reminds me of when very young I was hungry so the dog and I shared 4 day old rissoles from her feed bowl. I hadn't learned yet the cultural implications or germ phobia.
The dog saw me as a hungry pup.

I would therefore dispute that PNG children are 'trained to overcome phobias(fears)' and substitute they were never taught to have unreasonable fears in those areas by as you say exposure and education. A nuance but an important one in anthropology/sociology.

PC to me implies subjectivity in the interpretation the above is accepted science and demonstrable.This is a whole other topic.
I hope this helps explain.

Dear Fractelle,

You don't have to tell me about prejudice.
I've lived with it all of my life.
My family came to Australia as refugees,
who had fled from Lithuania in 1944, to
escape the second Soviet occupation of their
country (1944-1990). They saw Australia as
a temporary stopover, because they were
hoping to return home soon. Their hopes
were not fulfilled.

Most post war Lithuanian refugees came to
Australia as indentured labour, that is,
every migrant over the age of 18 had to
enter into a two year contract with the
Australian government which obliged the
migrant to work wherever directed. The
contracts were strictly enforced, even if
it meant that families were split up.

On arrival in Australia, all Lithuanian
migrants were classified in only two
occupations: 'labourers,' which denoted
all males and 'domestics,' which meant all
females.

Although the Australian employment officials
had full details of each refugees skills and
qualifications, no effort was made to match
these with the jobs offering. The Australian
authorities enforced labour contracts
strictly.

Klaassen (1997, p. 158) mentions the first
prosecution conducted in Adelaide in June 1949
when a migrant failed to fulfill his indenture
contract. The migrant was sentenced to six months
jail and was deported after failing the dictation
test. The cruel catch was that a dictation test of
50 words or more could be given in any language -
usually a language that the accused was unikely to
speak or write. This incredible 'test' was
introduced in 1901 and existed in Australia for more
than half a century.

The early conditions for migrant settlement were
inadequate. There was no family accommodation in many
places to which contract workers were sent. Men had
to live in tentts or tin huts, in most primitive
conditions. Their wives and children remained in
holding camps for long periods and often a long
distance away from their husbands and father's work
places.

Marriages suffered, and the psychological scars of
forced separations have remained for life.

Fractelle, I appreciate your intent, but I think you cancelled you’re dispute with me when you said..”It’s normal to be fearful of the unknown” . You also seem to be fixated on the word “phobia”, which is a shame, as it’s only a part of the word I perhaps unwisely used, xenophobia, and carries implications beyond that words meaning.
It was the fear of the stranger, the unknown one, the different one, that I have been talking about, and that’s the word I used. Can you not see that in your example, you are teaching those babies to overcome their instincts, simply by placing them together during their formative years, and making it pleasant for them?
Xenophobia shares its roots with our tribal/clan inclinations, and is survival oriented. Many animals will attack non-clan others of their species, but can be persuaded to accept them eventually, sometimes. In this we are no different, why do some people seem to have a problem accepting this? If there is a better word for this phenomenon, tell me, perhaps I have inadvertently caused some confusion.
Exam’, I think we’re going to have to agree to differ, to some degree anyway. No worries, this is exactly why I’m here, to learn. I almost wish I disagreed with you more often, rationality is always a pleasure to read.

Foxy

I am well aware that you have felt the full force of prejudice having read many of your posts over time.

I did not intend to appear to be lecturing you, rather that I see prejudice from a similar perspective as does Examinator.

What prompted my last response to you was in your statement:

"You tell me that prejudice is fear based.
I feel that a number of elements may contribute to
prejudice. These elements include -

1) Competition.
2) Religious ideas.
3) Fear of strangers.
4) Extreme nationalism."

I agree that prejudice is a result of many factors, such as you suggest above. However, I was trying to explain that all human biases have at their core: hatred/fear. I put those words together because I see them as sides of the same coin:

We fear what we hate and we hate what we fear.

But things likes nationalism, xenophobia, religion and competitiveness are all learned, we all have to a lesser or greater extent an inherit ability to those behaviours and our environment may either mitigate or enhance such.

A person who is very naturally shy can, given the right stimulation, leave behind their tendency towards shyness and become far more outgoing, extroverted.

We are too fond of applying labels to each other and believing those labels are permanent. If the majority of humans believe this to be true, then I hold little hope for humans to ever live in peace. I rather prefer to remain optimistic, having observed changes in both myself and others and knowing we don't have to accept the status quo - that we can trust, accept and interact with those who appear different. My work with migrants and refugees, from a few years ago now, taught me that communication is possible even if we don't have a language in common. I suffered burn-out from that job, not because of the clients, but because of the management who gave little support to caseworkers.

The majority of people I managed housing for, were just people, wanting to get on with their lives and everyone else. It was just a tiny percentage who caused all the hard work and problems, and they were both born Australians or migrants.

For all that I suffered from management/co-workers, I remain positive to this day that the vast majority of people are inherently good.

Problem is, dominating authoritarian type people tend to be more common in leadership - humans are often adversarial and this favours the more controlling types to reach positions of power. The corporate structure favours the psychopath.

http://www.drjohnclarke.com/

Dear Fractelle,

Yes I have felt the full force of prejudice at times.
And I Thank You for remembering that. However, both
my parents, our friends, and relatives - moved on
ages ago. I was born in Australia - and consider this
my home. My parents taught us - it was up to us what
we made of our lives - nobody owed us a living. And
for those who were biased against the early refugees -
there were many more who were not - and whose help and
friendship we value to this day.

I fully understand what you're saying about fear/phobias.
I don't disagree with you. I simply think in broader terms.
Is all.

Prejudice and discrimination are found in any situation of
hostility and inequality between racial and ethnic groups.
To me - prejudice is an irrational, inflexible attitude
toward an entire category of people. It usually implies
negative feelings - antipathy, hostility - and yes, even
fear.

The key feature of prejudice is that it is always rooted in
generalisations and so ignores the differences among
individuals. So, someone who is prejudiced against Arabs/Jews
will tend to have a negative attitude towanrd any individual
Arab/Jew, in the belief that all Arabs/Jews share the same
supposed traits.

You spoke about the 'Authoritarian Personality.'
Theodore Adorno and his associates tried to answer
the question whether this type of personality is
more prone to prejudice than others.

Adorno's work has since inspired over a thousand
pieces of research and critical articles. Some
writers hve pointed out that Adorno's methodology
was weak in certain respects - others that he neglected
the possibility of an authoritarian personality
among radicals as well as conservatives others that
he was too vague and sweeping in its scope.

Despite these, and other criticisms, however, it is
now generally accepted that some people are psychologically
more prone to prejudiced thinking than others.

cont'd

I take people as I find them. And, if I find that
they have any prejudicial traits - well, I figure
that it's their problem and not mine. Of course,
that becomes difficult, when it's your employer
and/or your immediate boss at work.
However, I've been
lucky in my career to date. There haven't been
many instances that were difficult. And the ones
that were difficult - were on the whole - bearable.
Thanks to other colleagues and staff.

In Antonios case - I think that I would have handled
the situation differently. I would probably have been
more concerned with getting the job finished (and
possibly going home earlier), than harping on about
my lunch and my entitlements. Especially since the boss
gave up his lunch to get the job done.

As you said Fractelle, there's always two-sides to each
coin.

Foxy

I didn't say "there are always two sides to each coin". I was discussing that hate and fear are two sides of the same coin. Distinct difference.

"I fully understand what you're saying about fear/phobias.
I don't disagree with you. I simply think in broader terms.
Is all."

I did believe I was discussing the subject in broad terms. I was not focusing on the specific issue of Antonius' workplace, he may well have been a target of racism, however he was still being bullied. Nor would I suggest what he should or should do in his situation, being hypoglycemic, I have to have meal breaks at reasonable times. Now I don't know and neither do you, whether Antonius had been able to take reasonable breaks, just because the boss chooses not to doesn't mean that Antonius has to as well. Manipulating rest breaks, rosters and shift hours is another bullying tactic.

Also I am aware of what the word prejudice means. But thanks for the definition anyway.

You mentioned the theory that the authoritarian type personality may be more prone to prejudice and I agree that this is likely. People who see themselves as superior no doubt carry an entire swathe of prejudices with them.

Finally I admit I'm not really quite sure what point you are trying to make here, Foxy.

Are you saying that prejudice is instinctive? Like Maxi claims xenophobia is? If so, I disagree. I believe that prejudice is learned behaviour, and, as such may be unlearned. We are born with the capacity for hate and fear as survival mechanisms it is how we are raised whether these emotions turn into racial prejudice and its brethren, intolerance.

Dear Fractelle,

The point that I've been trying to make all along
is that many prejudiced people have a distinctive
set of traits, including conformity, intolerance,
and insecurity. They see the world in very rigid
and stereotyped terms.

I don't understand why we're arguing. I agree with
you - these are learned traits - which may be passed
from generation to generation. Many children learn
prejudice from their parents and teachers.

As far as Antonios is concerned - you're right I
shouldn't have judged him by what I would have done
in his circumstances - after all none of us really
know the exact circumstances. I was merely going on
what he said in his post - and I got the impression
that he seemed more concerned with his rights at work,
then with the actual work itself. But as you rightly
point out - there could be mitigating circumstances
involved.

“It is near impossible to change workplace culture unless it starts at the top. Some reading for you:”

Hey Fractelle thank you for the link. Do you know what occurred to me reading all the stuff about being bullied... I think I have been. It wasn’t nice admitting to being a victim in this. I knew a punishment was in place but even with that I felt angry that it affected children who I considered the victims. Now I feel sorry for myself but perhaps I should have all along. Thank you.

But I volunteer so not even the inadequate steps that employees may have available to them can help. And with that thought I am back to being angry again which is a more comfortable place for me.

You and Foxy… I think I have confused some stuff and you two have a better understanding. Is being prejudiced the same as being racist? Is being narrow minded the same thing as calling someone insular? Is intolerant just an impatient person or someone who in general doesn’t tolerate anything outside what they know or who they are?

Does this describe you average Australian and by Australian in relation to this thread does that mean all residents of this country?

Yes I know I should have asked these things before even saying anything before.[smile]

Peter the Believer,
<<Menzies joke about two wongs don’t make a white>>
A Liberal leader would never make such a racist statement.
It was in fact Arthur Calwell, Labor Immigration Minister from 1945 to 1949 and leader of the Australian Labor Party from 1960 to 1967.

Jewely,
"Antonius' fear of losing his job is what gives the bullies their power over him" YOU HAVE RIGHT!
But I am about 60 and it is imposible to find new job, plus the financial crisis, before as sole parent I did not have the right to risk my children's future.
When I had to be brave I was brave and I did it many times for workers rights. When you are involved in the union you can not spaek or promote your personal benefits, it is easy to fight for others benefits but not for yours, I do not like any one to say that I use the union for my own benefits. Do you understand?
Migrants, sole parents, aged people are in difficult position, they do not have any power for any negosation, especialy in a financial crisis. I was migrant, sole parent, aged plus I try to build my own business.
It is employer's obligations to respect their employees rights, it is their responsibilities to promote the equal opportunities for all their employees and not block migrants from any opportunity.
I discussed many times with union organizer about migrant's conditions in other places. He said me my workplace was a palace comparing with the other places, I have believed him I heard bad stories for other places. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR THE MIGRANTS!
My question is not in comparison with other employers BUT in comparison with employees fron the privilaged race.
ALL OF THEM HAD CHANGES TO IMPROVED THEIR POSITION, AND THEY DID IT, EXEPT FROM ME!
THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT MIGRANTS DO NOT HAVE ANY OPPORTUNITY TO IMPROVE THEIR POSITION IN WORKPLACES.
The EQUAL opportunities is the biggest lie I ever heard in Australia.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Jewely,
I believe that migrant';s conditions will be improved in Australia.

2. The synthesis of Australian population does not allow racial games. The authorities have no other choice than to protect basic migrant's rights as equal opportunities. The biggest problem for migrants is the lack of equal opportunities in workplaces.
2. The Union Movement will have huge problems if it does not stay by the migrants, from one point and after they will show real interest for migrant's rights.
3. My real messege is very simple. MIGRANTS HAVE A PROBLEM IN WORKPLACES, DO NOT ALLOW TO BUILD UP IT BECAUSE THEN WE WILL HAVE A REAL, BIG PROBLEM!
Jewely,
If there is problem with migrants then an "unusual event " convert it to a political problem which needs urgent solution.
4. I hope migrants to start to claim their rights, to realize their political power, if it happens then our conditions will become better.
Today I watched a demonstration og Indian studens, this is a good sign because remind the authorities for the real conditions. THE RELATIONS BETWEEN VARIOUS RACES ALWAYS ARE IS VERY FRAGILE!
5. They knew that I was a union officer overseas but the ignore my basic rights.Unionists or politicians use the same way to promote their goals. They convert a problem, to a social problem, (as migrant's problem) etc. to a political problem. With this way unionists or politicians put in the "batle" more and more people.
6. No one will listen or respect me if back of me there are not many voters! It is the power, the balamce of power which makes the changes and not their respect. If I will be strong they will listen to me if I am weak they will ignore me and violate my basic rights as they did until now. Do you understand me what I am saying?
Do not worry, I know when to stop!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

jewel<<Is being prejudiced the same as being racist?>>..interesting concept,..but i feel easilly resolved..by talking about it..[pre-jud.iced..is when we say not to like homo-[sexual's],or football/players who have sex with each other..

racist is when we hate some-one..because of them being a member of a nation..often because of them having some distinctive racial/charactoristic..

[eg i have noted semites..arabs/some israelies]..often have big noses and close together eyes..[for egsample]..thus discriminating against big noses is racist,..whereas liking small noses is prejudice..[or something like that]

<<Is being narrow minded the same thing as calling someone insular?..i like to think im insular rather than narrow minded

[im not sure there oppisites]..gregarious/out-going/dependant..seems to me the opposing of insular..[where as im broad-minded..as opposed to narrow minded..[except where im preduced..against child molestors..[or lawyers or bankers]..i really should pull out my thesorious

<<Is intolerant just an impatient person>>..dificult to diferentiate im intolerant..if i feel they should know..better..and impatiant when i feel their impled or implicite talent..isnt forth-comming

<<or someone who in general doesn’t tolerate anything outside what they know>>narrow-minded..<<..or who they are?..>>racist/prejudiced/bigoted

Australians have a very inward looking attitude. We’re so busy castigating ourselves for own alleged "intolerance", "prejudice", "racism" etc. that we don’t see just how racist and xenophobic the rest of the world’s nations really are in comparison.

Australia over the last several decades has peacefully absorbed more immigrants from alien cultures than probably any other society has done in history. A foreign influx of such a magnitude would have been met with violence and civil unrest in any other country. Yet nobody ever points this out.

If anything, I think Australians are possibly TOO tolerant of some of these fractious, ungrateful immigrant minorities who seem to think that we must bend over backwards to acommodate them.

“"Antonius' fear of losing his job is what gives the bullies their power over him.""

"YOU HAVE RIGHT!””

This was a statement made by Fractelle, and yes she got that right in my own case as well Antonios.

“But I am about 60 and it is impossible to find new job, plus the financial crisis, before as sole parent I did not have the right to risk my children's future. “

We have a similar story I think, put up with bullies to protect children. And we are both finding we are powerless?

“…When you are involved in the union you cannot speak or promote your personal benefits, it is easy to fight for others benefits but not for yours, I do not like any one to say that I use the union for my own benefits. Do you understand?”

Not really – are you saying that as part of a union you cannot defend yourself? Whose job is it to defend your rights?

“Migrants, sole parents, aged people are in difficult position, they do not have any power for any negotiation, especially in a financial crisis. I was migrant, sole parent, aged plus I try to build my own business. “

Antonios, I have the same problem as you, by defending others a government department appears to have gone out of its way to be extremely unkind. I suspect they did get a fright at how far a Kiwi women will go to defend the little Australians. The Aussie foster parents warned me not to complain. I wonder if this is a cultural thing? I look like an Aussie until I talk.

“It is employer's obligations to respect their employee’s rights, it is their responsibilities to promote the equal opportunities for all their employees and not block migrants from any opportunity.”

Yeah see I volunteer so I’m a bit stuffed, no rights at all.

“The EQUAL opportunities is the biggest lie I ever heard in Australia.”

Don’t know, they seem equally unfair to everyone. Have you seen changes for the better in your time?

"Australians have a very inward looking attitude. We’re so busy castigating ourselves for own alleged "intolerance", "prejudice", "racism" etc. that we don’t see just how racist and xenophobic the rest of the world’s nations really are in comparison.
Australia over the last several decades has peacefully absorbed more immigrants from alien cultures than probably any other society has done in history. A foreign influx of such a magnitude would have been met with violence and civil unrest in any other country. Yet nobody ever points this out.
If anything, I think Australians are possibly TOO tolerant of some of these fractious, ungrateful immigrant minorities who seem to think that we must bend over backwards to acommodate them."

This can’t be an argument to use, I hear it in my playroom all the time and it goes like this:

“Julie he called me pumpkin head!”

“Stop calling him pumpkin head right now it’s upsetting him”

“But he called me stupid!”

“I didn’t hear that but you will both stop and listen, stop calling each other names that you know will make everyone sad. We have a little girl coming to stay and she wont want to play with either of you if you can’t even be nice to each other.”

“But next door they call their visitors pumpkin head so why can’t we?”

“Because we are here not next door.”

I was sole parent, I have worked sifts and I worked plenty overtime, about 50% of my income was from the overtime, this was good for me and good for the employer. I did not have the time to involved with the Greek community, only writing online to newspapers or forums.
One time I went in an open general meating from the central Greek community in Adelaide about the pension transfer overseas. In my speak I was simple, clear and of cause against the race discrimination.
I did not know any one there , but strait I elected in the committee to promote the solution of the problem. The problem of race discrimination in workplaces is not only for me or from my fantacy!
Not only Greeks but all migrants stand by people who are against the race discrimination and ready to fight against it.
I seem hard but I am not what real I try to do is to sent the messege that I am ready to fight, it will cost not only to me but to them too. Let's use our brain to solve the problems.
The locals, the privilaged race in any part of the wolrd, IGNORE, UNDERESTIMATE MIGRANTS BASIC RIGHTS but if they knew that migrants are ready to fight for their rights then they understand that it is to their interests to solve the problem. I try from the begin to be very clear on my goals and my tactic, I WORK ON PRINCIPLES AND I AM NOT EXTREMIST.
For example when the interior minister of Cyprus decided to deport me (as dangerous for the national interests) I did do not do anything wrong or illegal. The General Secretary from the Union, (I was an officcer from the union) closed an appointment with the interior minister in the Greek Embassy to solve the problem. I REJECTED ANY DISCUSSION ON MY RIGHTS, INCLUDING THE PEATING WITH THE MINISTER and at the end I won.
I AM HARD, VERY HARD ON THE VERY BASICS, THIS GIVE AN ADVANTAGE TO ME AND IMPROVE MY CREDIBILITY.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

I was sole parent, I have worked sifts and I worked plenty overtime, about 50% of my income was from the overtime, this was good for me and good for the employer. I did not have the time to involved with the Greek community, only writing online to newspapers or forums.
One time I went in an open general meating from the central Greek community in Adelaide about the pension transfer overseas. In my speak I was simple, clear and of cause against the race discrimination.
I did not know any one there , but strait I elected in the committee to promote the solution of the problem. The problem of race discrimination in workplaces is not only for me or from my fantacy!
Not only Greeks but all migrants stand by people who are against the race discrimination and ready to fight against it.
I seem hard but I am not what real I try to do is to sent the messege that I am ready to fight, it will cost not only to me but to them too. Let's use our brain to solve the problems.
The locals, the privilaged race in any part of the wolrd, IGNORE, UNDERESTIMATE MIGRANTS BASIC RIGHTS but if they knew that migrants are ready to fight for their rights then they understand that it is to their interests to solve the problem. I try from the begin to be very clear on my goals and my tactic, I WORK ON PRINCIPLES AND I AM NOT EXTREMIST.
For example when the interior minister of Cyprus decided to deport me (as dangerous for the national interests) I did do not do anything wrong or illegal. The General Secretary from the Union, (I was an officcer from the union) closed an appointment with the interior minister in the Greek Embassy to solve the problem. I REJECTED ANY DISCUSSION ON MY RIGHTS, INCLUDING THE MEATING WITH THE MINISTER and at the end I won.
I AM HARD, VERY HARD ON THE VERY BASICS, THIS GIVE AN ADVANTAGE TO ME AND IMPROVE MY CREDIBILITY.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

Foxy “I suppose we do confuse multi-racial and multi-cultural.”

I am not sure people can or do make any distinction between multi-cultural and multi-racial, when one is inherently intertwined and dominated by the other.

All I can suggest is we follow the Anglo-Saxon example, remembering, Angles and Saxons were once different races, who only found strength through assimilating with one another plus Normans, Romans ancient Britons etc.

“In some schools, 90 per cent of the students speak a language other than English as their first language.”

Then for the sake of the students' future careers and well being, I trust they will rapidly be upgraded to fluent English.

I find anyone who cannot read the laws which they are required to conform to is at a huge social disadvantage and I will remind all, Australian Laws are enacted in English and applied in English, they are not translated, with all the risks of mistranslation, into alien tongues.

As to diversity, I personally view Australia’s “diversity” as 20+ million unique individuals I have no interest in their colour or ethnic origins. You will get no effective assimilation whilst people cling to their historic roots, you will only produce the separation and segregation commonly associated with Germany in the 1930s and the USA Deep South up to 1960s.

As for libertines and rakes… we are still alive and well and living in the burbs and actually this one was dining, drinking and dancing with a delightful and very decorative lady of South American/Philopino origins right through to the early hours of Sunday morning (but that’s another story of “assimilation” success)

And which Is a complete contradiction of such whining prattle as

“Col nationalistic pride etc. is another learned mind set/ potential prejudice. One that is superficial/emotionally based. A bit like allegiance to a football team.”

Such a judgmental outburst is, obviously, the reasoning of a lesser person, projecting their own racial/cultural prejudices and inadequacies.

"... this one was dining, drinking and dancing with a delightful and very decorative lady of South American/Philopino origins right through to the early hours of Sunday morning (but that’s another story of “assimilation” success)"

I do hope she didn't overcharge you Col.

Jewely

I don't know where to start - so many posts have been made since yesterday. But one thing I do want to say is:

Haa haa haa haa haa - Col whatever ever happened to your ladyfriend the prison officer? No matter I'm sure you can afford to pay for whatever life's pleasures has to offer. As for your suggestion that everyone become like Anglo-Saxons, well you can shove that where the sun don't shine.

Jewely, ask Col about his Marilyn Monroe ties - according to him he really attracts the laaaaaadies when wearing one of those.

On prejudice - a broad term used to exclude whoever or whatever you don't like, not just pertinent to race, gets plenty of use by everyone, for example, one can be prejudiced to Rugby and pro AFL. Not to be confused with 'allergy' which I am to pompous British twits. I much prefer warm hearted British artists. Sorry, got distracted. Racism is just prejudice against those people who have different skin colour, noses, eyes. Col claims to not be racist, but ask him about the intellectual abilities of the black man. He has made some very interesting posts about non-white people. I can always dig one out for you if you'd like.

Culture and race are not necessarily mutually exclusive, think Middle East - Arabs, Jews both are semites.

As for your comments about confusion, it is so confusing that even people who have similar world views can argue at cross purposes - such as Foxy and myself.

BTW the best way to deal with bullies in the workplace is to keep a diary, noting down time, date, issue etc. You may never get to use it, but you will achieve a chronological record. And you never know - it may come in handy. Its a bit difficult to argue against a detailed record.

Jewelry "I do hope she didn't overcharge you Col."

actually the vagaries of dating sites.... she paid to contact me.. I have never paid anyone for their company.

fractelle "whatever ever happened to your ladyfriend ... " we went our separate ways, on friendly terms...

"He has made some very interesting posts about non-white people. I can always dig one out for you if you'd like."

actually the comment was to 'ethnicity' and the influences of genes on intellect... just as genes influence height (Masai), health issues (sickle cell anemia), hair colour (Celts, Saxons etc) was not the issue... merely ethnicity... I wonder which ethnic sub-group fractelle aligns herself with... perhaps the Irish, the great perpetrators of the myth of institutional victimhood?

but again, fractelle, I will excuse you, you are displaying just more of that (maybe genetic) predjudice you were twittering on about earlier.

fractelle<<..As for your comments about confusion,..it is so confusing that even people who have similar world views can argue at cross purposes>>is an interesting point...often this racial/sexual divide is more a tool of the elite..to divide and conquer the poor/or those deem[demean]as lessor..with the implication of the elites sure supiriority[if only by their inbred genes..[to get them deemed geneticlly diverse..[not pure inbreeds]..fighting ammoung themselve

>>BTW the best way to deal with bullies in the workplace is to keep a diary,noting down time,date,issue etc.>>..thats practicle advice as long as it dosnt become an obsession

<<You may never get to use it..i would say rarely,but as you say<< but you will achieve a chronological record.>>and conspiricies arnt conspiricy when they are simply a cronological record[revealing systematic bias]

<<Its a bit difficult to argue against a detailed record>>...facts are facts..them with the best facts win..[nearly]..every-time...thats the frustrating thing arguing with women...they..''allways''..lol..debate with either facts or emotions revealed by the facts...lol..

sorry i hate allways..[it means different things between the sexes]..but thats another story...lol

that reminds me of a story...lol..some other time

why am i allways doing that?...doing what?...you allways do''that''..that what?....lol

So many posts since I last checked...

That's what makes the Forum interesting.
We may not always agree, but we can listen
to each other, and sometimes - learn to see things
a bit differently - to what we first thought.

I've had my views changed many times - and I'd
like to think that this process will continue,
not only with me - but for many of us...
Here's some thoughts:

After maintaining a longstanding policy of ethnic
assimilation, the Australian government turned to
multiculturalism for a while, during the second
half of the 20th century. However, the latest public
debate, in 2005, especially in regard to the Muslim
immigrants, has reverted to the central question:
how much integration or assimilation should be
expected from migrants who settle in Australia?

This new focus on migrants has been prompted by the
alarming spread of international terrorism since 2001.

There were heavy civilian casualties in the Twin Towers
'9/11' attack in New York (Sept. 11, 2001), Bali (2003
and 2005), Spanish train explosions (2004) and London
bombings (July, 2005). In all these incidents, and
several others, suicide bombers of extremist Muslim
persuasion were alleged to have committed the crimes.
Most of the suspects were seemingly law-abiding
immigrants or their off-spring.

The fear of this new breed of 'home-grown terrorists'
has spread like wildfire - not only in the countries
directly affected, but throughout the world.

In Australia, the numbers of Muslim immigrants settling
in this country are growing fast. Australians are wondering:
Is it possible to maintain one's ethnic and cultural 'roots'
and identity, while also subscribing totally to the
underpinning values of Australia as a liberal democracy?

Studies have been done that tell us that every immigrant
who has made Australia his permanent home has three
distinct affiliations - 1) his ethnic nationality,
2) his religion and 3) his citizenship. It is essential
to ensure that none of these elements clash.

If they do, the citizenship - complete with all its
obligations - must unconditionally have the upper hand.
If the clash cannot be resolved, the citizenship must
be forfeited.

In answer to the title of this thread. YES!

No more or less than other developed countries who have all become narrow minded and insular.

It is getting worse. The sooner we accept diversity of culture and religion, the better off we will be.

cont'd

It isn't possible to lose one's ethnic nationality
overnight. It takes at least a generation - or
several generations to mutate from being, say,
a Greek to becoming an Australian. This should
not make much of a difference in itself, if the
person's loyalty to Australia is absolute and
overrides everything else. It can be done,
and has been done many times in the past. However,
the problem lies with some people - who are not
prepared to give their loyalty to this country.

Do the 'old' Australians know enough about migrants,
and vice versa? Educational institutions don't teach
enough in-depth courses about all migrant' cultures
and their contributions to Australia. Over the years,
several major reports on Australian immigrants have
stressed the importance of fostering and preserving the
multifaceted cultures of this country. Recommendations
have been made that migrants' languages and cultures
be taught for the benefit of all Australians.
They also promoted the teaching of more foreign
languages (LOTE) generally.

The co-ordination of multicultural affairs in Australia
is difficult, because of the complexity of the population
and agencies involved. It used to be seen primarily as the
domain of the Federal Government. However, State Governments
and Local Governments have since entered this field with a
multitude of programs and specialised infrastructures.

In the meantime migrants are multiplying not only in absolute
numbers, but also in their national backgrounds. For example,
in the municipality of Fairfield alone, there were 70,000
overseas-born residents in 1990, speaking a total of 102
languages.

Perhaps - narrow-mindedness, prejudice, and intolerance,
will eventually become a thing of the past - as
Australia becomes more of a 'melting pot,' of various
cultures, and
we continue to grow, get to know each other, and
prosper?

Antonios:“ I WORK ON PRINCIPLES AND I AM NOT EXTREMIST.”

I don’t know how this country works Antonios, I tried just principles and not being extreme and defending the underprivileged. Got tripped up by management and then pooped on. If Australia does not defend its own then I see little hope for it to protect its immigrants in any way. You might have to wait until you out number them.

Antonios:“… closed an appointment with the interior minister in the Greek Embassy to solve the problem.”

I suspect a much bigger story there my man… what happened in Cyprus?

Col:”actually the vagaries of dating sites.... she paid to contact me.. I have never paid anyone for their company.”

Well you’re just not doing it right then.

Fractelle: “Culture and race are not necessarily mutually exclusive, think Middle East - Arabs, Jews both are semites.”

Hey Fractelle, Arabs really confuse me, had big arguments with Lebanese about race vs religion. The Christian Lebs claim that if they are Christian they are not in fact Arabs. But Christian or Arab my gawd they were cute.

They still thought all white women were tarts though – bit like the NRL boys.

OUG:”why am i always doing that?...doing what?...you always do''that''..that what?....lol”

You must not channel two people at a time it is bad for you! Like Fractelle said I do write everything down and I think you have just clarified why. You didn’t know you could that aye… Clarify something for someone.[grin]

Anger is great, not as deflating as other emotions. Don’t think “hate” would be too good for you hon.

Ginx, you are a shocker. Foxy, you must type like the wind. Why are yours and Yabby’s messages all down the left hand side?

I was going to say that it isn’t supposed to be a melting pot but a salad bowl, all the individual bits appreciated and visible. Yes I know, I am such a tosser.

Dear Jewely,

You consistently make me smile,
Thank You!

Why do I type down the left-hand side?

Because someone told me it makes things
easier to read, and I believed them.

Now, it's become a habit.

Jewely

If you consider the way white women are portrayed in media, it is no surprise that a subset of men think all white women are slags. And, of course, some are; hence the generalisation (prejudice).

I agree with Foxy, you always make me laugh. Good that you are keeping a diary, you may publish a best seller one day. If nothing else it is better to get your angst on page rather than letting it fester. Although, I gather from your posts that you use anger rather than letting it use you.

Ginx, are you saying that Australia is more "narrow minded, prejudiced and intolerant" than all other nations?

Col, I never expect any more of you than you are capable of producing. You haven't failed my expectations thus far.

Cheers

Ginx
“Are Aussies - narrow minded, prejudiced and intolerant”

A YES will always be expressed by those who are oversensitive and obsessive about what other people should be allowed to think and do.

And “No more or less than other developed countries who have all become narrow minded and insular.”

Maybe it is the “narrow mindedness and insular “values which have promoted the developed countries to “develop” and maybe the lack of a pre-eminent cultural identity which has left the underdeveloped as underdeveloped with all the niceties which come along with that, most commonly, short life expectancy and overall an impoverished life quality.

And I figure the smart thing for anyone migrating to Australia is to first acknowledge the values which are to be expected and which they seek to benefit from in a Modern / Western / Christian Economy,
instead of demanding the right to live like the remote outpost of a third world / Muslim / paternalistic and theocratic dictatorship (aka the great leap backward).

It seems to me the likes of Iftikhar Ahmad, London School of Islamics Trust, www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

Quoted on the thread here “Muslim Children in State Schools”
When he writes:
“A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to become notorioulsy monolingul Brit.”

Should ask himself… what reason would a Muslim move to Britain, if not to enjoy the benefits gained from assimilation into that monolingual Brit society?

It seems to me such expressions are steeped in an overdeveloped sense of intolerance, bigotry and self-entitlement and deserving of the public derision of all intelligent people

Jewely “Well you’re just not doing it right then.”

Really, I am not doing it right?..

so do tell, how much is the “right amount” which you pay people to provide you with companionship (being absolutely sure you could never afford me)?

Fractelle “Col, I never expect any more of you than you are capable of producing. You haven't failed my expectations thus far.”

I have never, ever presumed to expect anything of you fractelle.

You, likewise, never disappoint me either, dear.

I've got to confess that I love this country,
and I can't imagine myself living anywhere else.

The court where we live is made up of a mixed
group of people - there's Italians, Chinese,
Sri-Lankans, Indians, Lithuanians, Macedonians,
all happily living as neighbours.

Yet it saddens me when I watch the news and hear
about the attacks on Indian students.

All I can hope is that this is a small, frustrated
minority, (possibly as a result of jobs going overseas),
that are perpetuating these sorts of crimes. I trust that
the law will deal with these criminals, and things will
not be allowed to get out of hand.

I still like to think that we as a nation have come a long
way, and although we've still got a long way to go,that
we'll be able to work things out - as we always have.

I'd like to take this opportunity to Thank You all for
taking the time and trouble to contribute to this thread.
I'm always grateful when people choose to participate
in a topic I've suggested.

For me personally, I feel that I'm done with this subject.
So, I'll be moving on - but please don't mind me - and
continue on. It's just that for me - it's now run its
course.

Again, Thanks everyone - see you on another thread.

“Really, I am not doing it right?”

You can’t be Col, going on dates; if you never pay for anything you’re not doing it right. You can’t let a female think she has purchased you in some way. Unless of course that is all good in your books, but you didn’t seem the sort to be purchased.

(PS, Graham said to send his regards to you and I asked him to not make me say something nice to you yesterday but I’m over that now).

“You consistently make me smile,Thank You!
Why do I type down the left-hand side?
Because someone told me it makes things
easier to read, and I believed them.”

It is a pleasure Foxy. Yes the left hand side does makes sense. Is Yabby doing it for the same reason? I have found Oz to be intolerant, narrow minded and that other thing… but no more than most places. Should I be saying that to Col?

Maybe Kiwis are too similar that I can’t see a particular culture in place where I live now…? It’s similar without the Maori stuff that I was kind of fond of.

I wish you were the first Aussie I met here Foxy. Seeya in the Threads.

“If you consider the way white women are portrayed in media, it is no surprise that a subset of men think all white women are slags. And, of course, some are; hence the generalisation (prejudice).”

I haven’t noticed, or I haven’t noticed the media with that thought in mind Fractelle. I guess after Saudi I thought white women had it pretty good. Perspective I guess and my tendency to not notice a lot in the media. But that is part of being on here, all the catching up I have to do.

“I agree with Foxy, you always make me laugh. Good that you are keeping a diary; you may publish a best seller one day. If nothing else it is better to get your angst on page rather than letting it fester. Although, I gather from your posts that you use anger rather than letting it use you.”

I was a bit worried about being irreverent on here but then I read some old posts from you guys and they made me feel better.

I document everything and situations around various agencies and government departments. kids aren’t allowed to know if they lived with other kids or if bad things happened to them. We are not to tell them that or put that in official files they will have access to one day. I need to wait until they all grow up so they can have their real stories.

I lack choice; there is no way to defend children if you let yourself get sad, fostering children is heartbreaking. I can’t sit and explain things to caseworkers if I burst in to tears.

I think the fight is on, they wont give me more kids until I shut up or they wont give me kids because I lodged a complaint. I haven’t worked that one out yet as I don’t really understand how government departments work. Another reason to be here.

part one
Jewely
"what happened in Cyprus?" Nothing important. I am Greek , I was married a cypriot and I migrated to Cyprus. In Cyprus I involved in politics as I did before in Greece and Germany.
I was with the socialist party (like the labor party), a small party comparing with the other European sosialist or labor parties but with a good history and hiw leader was an international personality. He was Vice-President of the Afro-Asian People's Solidarity Organisation; he was at the head of ICSA (International Committee in Solidarity with Southern Africa) which worked vigorously for the release of Nelson Mandela. He was the main fighter against the Junta and many times rights extremists attempted to kill him.
I was member from the district committee of Socialist party in Limassol, I was member from the district committee of youths of Socialist party in Limassol, and disctrict secretaru of trade unions (friendly to socialist party). In national level I was member from the Trade union secretariat (top union body) and member from the secretariat of the socialist youth organization.
I always promote the open, mass, democratic organizations, and I fought to expell from the party some leftists who was strong mainly in Limassol, between them an MP, and many party officcers of various levels. The leftists in their publications wrote that the Greek governming socialist party send me to Cyprus to expell them and line it with the greek socialist party, (later they went to Cypriot communist party), with this way I try to open the party to the masses from the right. Paralell as Unionist I was hard for worker's rights and ope the party to masses from the left. For example one time I suggest to the general secretariat of the union to take a government organization to the court because they use a trick to avoid to pay the labors (a special benefit) but they rejected my suggestion.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Continue

Part two
Jewely "what happened in Cyprus?"
When I returned back in my district I decided and I took the state organization to the court and I won. When asked me the secretary what I was doing I said " If I win, every worker will benefit if I lose I will resign"
Because in the past I was member etc in the Greek socialist party some Greek officers contacted me or some times the party asked me to take them to various places etc. They was top level party, union or government officers as ministers, general secretaries etc.
Parallel I was active for the rights of Greek migrants in Cyprus, I took part in meatings in Greek Embassy or in Cypriot interior's ministry when was Greek ministers in Cyprus.
The government, a coalision between communists and a centre right party was not happy with my activities and they decided to deport me, In the parliament they said that I (a foreigner, migrant) was involving in the internal afairs of Cyprus, and with my activities I damaged the national interests. I rejected any discussion with the Cypriot government and I blamed the government that violate my basic rights as a migrant. After the support I had from cypriot parties, greek government and ILO, the Cypriot Minister changed mind and he canceled his order for my deportation.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

"Ginx, are you saying that Australia is>>>>>more<<<<< "narrow minded, prejudiced and intolerant" than all other nations?" (Fractelle)

No. I answered the thread title.
________________________

TB, thank-you for you comments. Always a pleasure.
________________________

I haven't changed my view.

Antonios that was amazing stuff and a fascinating read. How can you say “nothing important’, it was all important!

You did all these things with your time as a Greek and a migrant to Cyprus. You dealt with what sounds like complicated issues while in Cyprus and went to court to improve things for workers while supporting your countrymen and won, the government tried to get rid of you and you stood your ground and again it was a victory for you and the people you defend.

Why has the struggle become so difficult for you here in Australia?

Why have you remained still battling to improve conditions after all this time here?

Have there been any wins for the working migrants in your industry?

Dear Jewely,

I thought that I'd finished with this thread
but here I am again.

This discussion is getting de-railed from
the topic, "Are Aussies prejudiced..."

I suggest that Antonios should open up his
own thread to discuss issues that he's
interested in, like the one he started on
Discrimination in the US - recently.

Continuously interjecting with irrelevant comments
on worker's rights doesn't advance the discussion
of this thread.

"Continuously interjecting with irrelevant comments
on worker's rights doesn't advance the discussion
of this thread."

Yep of course you are right Foxy. Apologies for going off track, I am starting to think it's a medical condition of mine.

Pssstt..Antonios, I think they have all gone now...

SSShhhhh....tell me why after all you have done you have not seen bigger changes within the working conditions for migrants in Australia?

Is it because Aussies are narrow minded, prejudiced and intolerant?

Just type quietly and they wont see us.

Jewely,
"Is it because Aussies are narrow minded, prejudiced and intolerant?"
EXACTLY! go now, foxy is coming!

foxy<<..Dear Jewely,

I thought that I'd finished with this thread>>

i thought so too
but half the other thread seems to be stilll going
sort of like to see how the other bit ends

it too began here..[so cant see why it too cant..end here]

its not as if it will add too many extra pages
i never seems this bossy side of you foxey

to respond to topic, i found aussies to be a lable[many are open minded,..many are close minded, its too general a topic to be specific,

and to be more specific it would need to specify open-minded about what...some of the most closeminded seem to be open minded when it comes to football players banking each others sperm bank..

other 'aussies'...lol..[certainly not..yet other aussies feel intolerant of others others having a discussion..off topic..[or so it seems]..we aussies are such a vairiable race...lol...but then what race isnt...every race i ever seem has all sorts...but we as mates could give a bit of leeway[especially if we all thought the topic finished,

that we agree with each others right to disagree]be they open minded or close minded [be they racist or tolerant..[or in tollerant we tollerate them all..[or not even there we can agree that we dont agree

ok there im finnished now too..[oh...lol..we didnt finish at the same time...was it good for you guys as well...hey where everybody go?

who's going to clean up the mess?
and you late comemer's you dont know what you missed

… we are three under God and must shoosh... OUG you clean up while me and Anotnios make a break for it…

…if anyone asks just say me and Antonios left our passports here by accident so weren’t really talking but just dropping in to grab them before any second and third generation Aussies found them and burnt them…

…hush but there is talk of closing the boarders so we can’t stay and help we have to go ring our families and tell them to pack faster… thanks OUG we owe you one…