It's occurred to me recently that there's been a change in attitude about who owns responsibility for feelings by the people of the modern world. It used to be thought (I think quite rightly), that if you feel insecure, or intimidated, or envious or guilty, then it is something internal that you should 'own'. Nobody can 'make' you feel any of these things. The fault lies with you, and you should try to improve yourself and deal with the realities in the world around you. I think this is quite an empowering attitude, and leads to people having all the answers they need to control their destiny.

I'm not a religious person, but I can see why the sins of vanity, sloth, envy etc are considered such. They're self defeating, and take power away from your life.

But somewhere along the line, there seems to be a new attitude of 'I feel this', so 'someone else must change'. The world should fit in to my ideal, and I have a 'right' not to 'feel' intimidated, envious, inadequate.

I feel inadequate, so 'society' should stop 'making' me feel that way.
I feel intimidated, so you must change the way you relate/converse with me.
Those pictures make me feel my body is inadequate, so they should be banned.
'Society' should change it's attitude's towards my gender, my sexuality, my age, my height.
'feminists' should stop 'making' me feel guilty for being a man.
'the media' should change so I don't feel 'pressured'.
'men'/'women' should value me based on what I want to be valued for.

I wonder what has caused this change? Are people, without religion looking to others to solve their emotional issues rather than looking to their god or themselves? Is it the 'self esteem is king' parenting fashion? Is it the greater power of women influencing 'validation' of emotions rather than the traditional male 'suck it up' attitude? Is it the government's middle class welfare state, and 'awareness campaigns' creating a race for supreme victimhood. Why are so many people choosing to be victims these days?

Because that's what they're being taught in school, everywhere.
Little Jonny can't read? Slow down the rest of the class.
Little Mary can't add up? Same answer.
Hard to learn something? Skip it, or give them the answers.

I was requested to stop teaching my own kids to read etc as it was making the rest of the class feel inadequate! My answer? "Do your job then, teach the rest!".
"Experts" have riddled us with insanity and mediocrity, because we let them! Until or unless we take back our systems, and lives, from the hands of these self-appointed "experts", the madness will continue.
Humanity spent thousands of years instilling self-discipline and responsibility in it's citizens by enforcing discipline on it's youth, until the "experts" decided that was "demeaning" to the little darlings, and that kids were just small adults, a fallacy indeed!
We are paying the price for that attitude nowadays!

I'm curious as to why you started this thread....?

Fairs fair..man. Fractelle took a hammering for starting a thread which was supposed to have spawned from another thread.

Just wondered Houlsy.

Other than that? I agree. We ARE in a society now where individuals constantly see themselves as victims, and are accommodated in that belief.
The irony of this is that true victims are largely ignored.
I offer up the D'Arcy situation as an example. Cowell has largely been ignored;-certainly he has not had the fraction of air time that his attacker has had. His attacker/family/their feelings being shown and commented upon ad nauseaum.

If this is not strictly what you are talking about, it IS broadly the same thing.

We ARE 'dumbing down', I don't think there is any question about that. It is an era. I hope in time that that era passes,-because if it does not, we will have cretins running this country...

Hang on;..............

Houellebecq: “ It's occurred to me recently that there's been a change in attitude about who owns responsibility for feelings by the people of the modern world. It used to be thought (I think quite rightly), that if you feel insecure, or intimidated, or envious or guilty, then it is something internal that you should 'own'. Nobody can 'make' you feel any of these things.

I wish this site could play the song “What About Me” as you read this.

I don’t think a mutation in a gene came along and suddenly people starting having these feelings. I believe you asked the wrong question and I’m sorry if in saying this I make you feel bad but I think the question would be;

Why does our society no longer consider it shameful to express ones feelings?

“I'm not a religious person, but I can see why the sins of vanity, sloth, envy etc are considered such. They're self defeating, and take power away from your life.”

Religions are brilliant, they control masses of people at a time better than any law could. Didn’t Kings and stuff find it much easier to change holy books back when there weren’t photocopiers?

'Thou shalt not whinge' should be added immediately.

"Is it the greater power of women influencing 'validation' of emotions rather than the traditional male 'suck it up' attitude?"

If it was women, and their greater power, why would we let men think they also were allowed to complain?

"Why are so many people choosing to be victims these days?"

Victim Compensation?

Dear Houellebecq,

Thanks for raising this topic.

It will give many a chance to have a say.
So here I am taking advantage of it...

I think its human nature to blame others.
As some one recently said to me,"Honestly,
all this hopeful crap you go on about makes
me sick!"

I felt guilty, and in my future relations
with that person I tried focusing more on their
feelings and tried to say as little as I
could about my own, until I realised that
change is a two way street, if
I was willing to "tone things down,"
she should not be so judgemental either.

We should be responsible for our own actions.
However that doesn't
mean that our actions are always right. We all
make mistakes - admitting these is how we learn
and grow.

What I find extremely difficult is when people
are deliberately rude, insulting, and hurtful
simply because your point of view differs from
theirs. But I'm beginning to learn that on the
internet its a wider mix of people that you're
dealing with and although you can't control their
responses, you can certainly control your own.

Or at least try.

Leaving real victims aside (ie. domestic violence, war casualties etc) I think what you say is very apt Houellebecq.

I wonder how it all started, the idea that there has to be a victim to be heard - whether it is race, gender, family law, cyclists on roads - you name it there is a victim of it.

There is much truth in the old adage - it is not what happens but how you react! In other words how you deal or cope with difficult situations determines whether you will be a victim or not - it is an individual choice.

The truth is we all deal with situations in different ways and some people may not have in their possession the tools or means to do so.

Following on from Maximillion on education, this obsession in schools with self-esteem has certainly done more damage in my view. There was a trend when my children were younger for teachers not to point out spelling errors lest the child be forever damaged.

We have become a nation obsessed with self-esteem. Self-esteem is not something that can be marketed or rammed down your throat, otherwise it becomes contrived and meaningless - one of those throw-away words oft used by hollowmen.

The biggie for me is the "you can be anything you want to be" line. Frankly, it is carp. You set kids up to fail from the moment you tell them this guff. What about some realism. Encourage kids to follow their dreams and give it their best shot but give them the means to cope with failure or contingencies.

I am not diminishing the importance of self-esteem more how we are going about it. Sure, praise is essential for building self-esteem but not false praise. Kids are not stupid and most realise that making mistakes is part of learning.

cont/...

The media is a big influence in society whether we like it or not. The question is how do we raise our kids to be self-confident and content with who they are in the face of pressure (real or otherwise) to be thin, beautiful etc. As adults we can laugh at it and ignore it but what about younger people who are developing?

I don't know the answer, because the media has always been ever-present. Even when model Twiggy became famous and thin was in, I don't think diseases like anorexia were as prevalent (or maybe they were not reported) nor did people seem to be less happy with their body image.

A lot of it has to do with other issues, nothing stands in isolation, there are nearly always contributing factors. We are more disconnected from our kids than ever before, now with the economic/social pressure for both parents to be at work, sometimes as soon as the baby hits six weeks old.

In my opinion, a lot of self-esteem comes from natural factors such as security within family (of any description), being loved and treated with respect, rather than pretend attempts at building self-esteem through social engineering policies.

Society must live with itself. There are two types of people those who do and those who simply follow the rest, and the doers are usually in the top five percent of intelligence ratings, and create most of the jobs. Some of these doers are obnoxious, and very difficult for those they live with, while others are easy to live with and as they used to say get along.

Government has made itself unaccountable in many ways, and in New South Wales before 1970, the Supreme Court was a place where if your feelings were hurt by the government you could call them to account. In that year they made Judges, to replace you in the courts, and the result is that New South Wales has beggars on the streets and thousands sleep rough every night. I wonder how they feel. The ordinary people are given cake in return for the enormous lowering of their personal power, caused by the takeover of the law by lawyers.

They gave women a vote, every three years, but took away your right to vote as a member of a jury. They gave us all a vote, but took away our right to decide the punishment that should be inflicted on sinners, and reduced us to a panel of twelve to decide serious cases of guilt or innocence. They then gave the sentencing to a Judge, and dictated to that Judge a range of sentences. At the same time they condemned him or her to eternal damnation, if he or she is a Christian, but the money is good.

I feel that we have been conned by our lawyers. I have recently had a case where a lawyer is trying to repossess a house from an elderly couple, in the Supreme Court in New South Wales. The couple own nearly half the house, and the mortgage is for about half: they pay regularly. The Supreme Court in New South Wales gives mortgagees possession in such cases, and the victim loses everything. I feel badly about that. How do the victims feel

Well said,Pelican, and in answer to your questions on how we do that, we have to sit down and explain it to the kids, from an early age, show them what is being done and what is real, that negates a lot of the media influences. Counter-train them.
As for confidence, as you said, a home, a sense of family, of belonging, and the adults that run their lives actual listening to them, all go a long way towards that.
Basically I'm saying that it takes an adult, either gender, to devote that one oh-so-short part of their life to raising the kids, a very old-fashioned but effective solution. Treating it as a part-time job, farming it out to others where convenient, are the direct cause of the youth problems and dis-connection that we see all around us.
I put my life where my mouth is, and was rewarded un-believably!
Three supremely competent, confident, young professionals, with a close family bond, truly heaven on earth.

Dear Max,

I'm equally lucky. I've got two equally great
children, who are our pride and joy. As well as
a happy marriage. Yes, life is good.

As I wrote on another thread.
What is important is the content of our children's
hearts and minds, or what is often described as
character. When we say, "It's what's inside that
counts," we speak a simple but profound truth.

We have growing agendas for raising our children.
But while we are feverish about providing our children -
every opportunity, from music lessons, tennis lessons, to
a college or university degree, it seems that our job as
parents is much simpler, and that is to raise a decent
human being.

I won't go into further detail here - but enough to say
I wanted to surround my children with a sturdy sensibility,
a world view, and I wanted it to be different from the
"Me," mentality of modern culture.

Ginx: "I'm curious as to why you started this thread....?"

Its possible this thread had something to do with it. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=8737#140170 It certainly had me scratching my head.

Unlike Houellebecq, I didn't see it as a general societal thing - just an example of one individual wanting the world to change to suit her. I am not sure whinging about it is the right reaction. I think the best solution is just to ignore the demands and move on. You would hope they get the message soon enough.

Haha Ginxy,

Quid Pro Quo man. 'Fractelle took a hammering'? Only from me, everyone else ignored the duplicitousness, so I got with the program myself. Actually I also wanted a topic to bring in the religious nutters, anti-socialists and gender warriors to the one thread. I couldn't work any greeny angle in though.

I'm a bit disappointed all I've generated is boring nodding 'yes it was better in the good 'ol days, I'm a good parent etc. Maybe it's boring because I agree with most of the posting. Even Peter the Believer, well, not really, I couldn't decipher most of that.

Maybe I'll go more Fractelle-like and claim that my motivation for the topic was all those women in the Hey Good Lookin thread who denied assessing men in a sexual way.

Hmm how can I liven things up. Perhaps society has been too feminised. The little girls who were always cuddled by their mommys and daddys whenever they shed a tear have obtained more influence and now their attitude of expecting people to jump to fix everything whenever they're upset is encroaching on the social landscape more than it did when the 'boys don't cry' men were running things?

So it's just another troll then? Thought so.

Yawn. Sorry to disappoint.

'So it's just another troll then? '

Well you'll have to ask Foxy and examinator, they're the judges. CJ, just because a post starts with a nefarious intent or is clouded in duplicity and deception, doesn't mean the topic isn't worthwhile. You have to take these things on the whole, and it's not all about generating a response pleasing to me. Fractelle generated 150 posts, much love, hate, pseudo-intellectualism, good natured teasing, malicious psychotic behaviour, irrelevance, victim posturing, deception etc with her duplicitous effort.

Now you might only be interested in the pseudo-intellectualism part and think anything else is trolling, but you are free to add a contribution like that. Or if Col or Antiseptic turns up you could do a bit of yapping. Whatever takes your pleasure. The topic has pleanty of scope for that.

Dear Houellebecq,

I think you protest too much.

We all get the fact that you're a stirrer -
but pleeeeaaasssseee - continually snipping
at myself and examinator is beginning to wear
a bit thin. You're accusing us of "judging,"
when you've doing precisely that yourself.

We're really not against you - dear heart,
and as I told you in another post - you're
most welcome to join us.

"I feel so you must change" or "you feel so I must change ".

From the point of conception we are changed and have Automatic natural responses that can affect others and how we go through life .

The first man and woman and our environment set the scene for us and we definitely can not blame them.

What is interesting is how we and our Laws choose to ignore the obvious.

We blame others ,we blame ourselves - for the inevitable .

We all feel, Houllie

It is how we choose to react to our feelings that defines us.

I am flattered that I manage to press so many of your buttons. This is may be:

Because I have psychic powers and know exactly what is going to piss you off.

or

You choose to be in a state of constant irritation so that the slightest hint (real or imagined) of someone challenging your world view sets off an almost instinctual hatred.

or

You want to get a reaction out of others and try to be provocative.

Whatever.

I have got the feeling that sometimes my posts go right over some peoples heads. Try reading them again if you don’t get what I am trying to say, and the penny might drop. I may be a religious nutter, I am certainly not racist, I suffer dumb poor buggers of any race, and I try hard not to discriminate. I just happen to believe that if you feel, as well as reason, your feelings may be better for you than your reasoning, particularly if the database you are working with is only a few kilobytes, and you are not particularly adept at Googling.

Christianity is all about feeling; Feeling that you are part of Gods great plan; Feeling that even though you may get crucified, your deep seated feelings about right and wrong will see you right. That is the message of the Crucifixion, and if you read the rest of the New Testament with an open mind and feel rather than reason, particularly the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and examine how you would feel if you asked for a fish and got a serpent, from your Dad, Capische.

Before we had science, before we had universal or near universal education, we still had feelings to hurt or feel good with. The New Testament is all about government by feelings. I once heard a sermon on anger. Anger is God’s way of getting something done. Marihuana is Satan’s way of getting nothing done. Salmond on the Law of Torts, a textbook I rather like, stated that the law relies on anger. Its purpose is totally defeated if an antiseptic Judge, who relying totally only on reason, denies to you, the ordinary people a chance to express your feelings in a Christian court of law.

Reason should not dictate to feelings. You know if something is right or wrong. It’s a feeling, and needs no reasoning. That is why a jury has the power to do wrong, even if a Judge tells them how to do right; even down to telling a Judge the law is wrong. Wakarimasen

Leaving aside the whiff of gender politics that can be detected in the opening credits, this is a fascinating topic.

Where did it all start?

Because there is no doubt that between my father's generation, who fought WWII without a backward glance, then built themselves a life without looking to others for a handout or favours, and my kids' generation, who have become accustomed to failure always being someone else's fault, there is - all generalizations acknowledged - indeed a yawning gap.

This is just a first impression, there's an entire book waiting to be written on this...

Was it perhaps the laws of supply and demand, as applied to the lawyer profession in the United States?

Relatively unscathed by WWII, and powered by a generation of careerist families pushing their progeny through law school, the US of the sixties saw a massive rise in the number of practising lawyers.

What were they all to do? There simply was not enough criminal activity to exercise them all, so they went ambulance-chasing, en masse.

This trend was magnified and validated by the emergence of lawyer-based TV shows and hospital-based TV shows, all pandering to the "don't worry, we'll get you some money for that grazed knee" approach to life. Gradually this spread to other countries through their importation of such shows... and off we go.

A paradise for leeches.

Or maybe it was simpler than that.

Again in the aftermath of WWII, there was a Europe-led lemming-leap into the all-pervasive Welfare State.

It is not such a big leap from the idea "it's ok, I can draw benefits while unemployed", to "why bother getting a job, I'm well looked after". Once a level of support is reached, there is a natural tendency to agitate to move to the next level. Which incorporates, as "right", a plasma TV in the family room...

Or maybe...

Pericles, I tend to blame it on well meaning parents of our
generation. Many said that they wanted to make it easier for kids
then they had it, but in effect have brought up brats unable to
help themselves.

Where I live, in the sticks in WA, people are far more resilient
and used to helping themselves in life, compared to your average
city slicker, who wants the Govt to give them life on a plate and
to solve everything.

We saw that here when there was a major drama. Those who had learnt
to cope with adversity as kids, solved problems and got on with
life. Those who never learnt those skills, frankly could not cope.

It shows on OLO. Some want the Govt to solve everything for them,
others paddle their own canoes and are masters of their own
destiny.

"I'm a bit disappointed all I've generated is boring nodding 'yes it was better in the good 'ol days, I'm a good parent etc. Maybe it's boring because I agree with most of the posting. Even Peter the Believer, well, not really, I couldn't decipher most of that." (Quote: Houelles)

What more is there to say? Can't have you bored Houelles!

1 server error.

Peter,

'I have got the feeling that sometimes my posts go right over some peoples heads. '
I'm sure they do, have you ever wondered whether people happily let them pass?

'your feelings may be better for you than your reasoning'.
You'd get on well with Fractelle.

'Christianity is all about feeling'...[ ]
There's so many easy one liners there I just couldn't decide.

'Marihuana is Satan’s way of getting nothing done'
What do you reckon about coke? Is that gods way of getting stuff done?

Hey I'm coming round to your god. Is god vengeful? BTW you'll have to spell out the scripture because your general poster's not going to be looking at a bible. I think we'd all like you to write down more bible quotes.

kartija jim>'We blame others ,we blame ourselves - for the inevitable .'

Actually Peter , that's more attractive. Sorry I've changed my mind. Maybe you can bake me some pikelets.

Pericles,

'this is a fascinating topic.'
I'll take that. In your face CJ! In your face!

Foxy Woxy,

I'm sorry. I really didn't know it upset you so much. I know you're not the judge. You're the Police!

Yabbs,

'Some want the Govt to solve everything for them,
others paddle their own canoes and are masters of their own
destiny'
I thought that was just left vs right wing?

I'm in a mood. Hmmm. I wonder if anyone else has ever been so bored of their own topic.

Actually I'd love that Phanto guy to make a post, he normally has an interesting take on things. If Col turned up I'd wet myself!

Dear Houellebecq,

Perhaps this will relieve your boredom,
it may possibly even make you think for
a second or two on your chosen theme
for this thread:

"I can say what I please
Is a cry you'll often hear
From certain folk with habits
That are positively queer

The harm that's done to others
Is none of their concern
To them it's all a game
When will they ever learn?

And, when they read that somone died
A young life, lost in vain
They simply shrug, "A mixed up kid,"
While others wear the pain!"

I've just learned of the suicide of a close
friend's son, as a result of bullying.
So, you'll have to forgive me.
However, it gives a different slant to "I feel,
so you must change," don't you think?

While United States lawyers have multiplied, enormously, they work within the system which is essentially practical Christianity. It derives from Matthew 18 verses 15-20, and we have it here just as they do in the United States but the lawyers in Australia who are still in the system, are mostly atheists or fellow travelers, and do not know how it feels to deliver justice. It would feel good.

Matthew 18:15 says: If your brother shall trespass against thee go and tell him his fault, between thee and he alone and if he shall hear thee, thou has gained thy brother. In Aussie: if someone bugs you, go and have a yarn to him in private.
16 says: But if he will not hear thee take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses the truth may be established.
17 says: and if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church. And if he neglect to hear the church let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
18 says Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever shall be loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19. Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done of them of my Father which is in heaven:
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in their midst.

In that passage is the essence of Christian Law. Your agreement does not have to be in writing unless it is money lending or land transfers. However if you do a deal, you have to agree to go before the ecclesia, translated in the King James Version as church, but in reality the court, of Our Lord. Almighty God is the Judge, but Jesus Christ was commissioned to deliver justice for him, and He sits on the right hand of the Father in a jury, a Living God. John 5: 22-23

Good post Pericles, I suspect it's all of the above, and more besides.
Actually, I put it down to mass education, prior to that most people didn't think, they "knew" what to do in most situations. Then suddenly there's all these people actually THINKING about things, millions of them, and among a number like that, inevitably, weird ideas and outlooks took hold, let's face it, even with "education", most of us aren't really that good at "thinking", lol.
And here we now are!
And educating and freeing the womenfolk! That really unleashed Pandora's box! Strange Ideas indeed!
Ahhhh, the good ol' days, when men ruled the roost and the world was perfect, lol,.......I wish! Nope, love it or hate it, we're stuck with it, lets hope we really do learn something worthwhile eventually, and survive long enough to make the world a better place!

I wish they'd ban tax because paying tax makes me feel all those things. How dare they!

The denial of the corrupt nature and the completely flawed premise of modern psychology gives everyone the excuse not to accept responsibility for their actions. From the case of the judge imprisoned (who still considers himself an honest person) to the violent environmentalist (who justifies his/her violence on the basis they are saving the planet) the obvious is denied. From the child molester who says they were born that way to the Politician who makes promises knowing they can't or won't keep them (ask Mr Rudd) one day we will face the fact that we have corrupt natures and the denial of it (as does psychology) is just plain self righteousness. Whenever I have done wrong things (sinned) it is because I have decided to obey my adamic nature which is common to all humans. Different environments lead to different manifestations of that nature. Normally religous environments including environmentalism releases hypocrisy.It is only at the feet of Jesus that one can be delivered and forgiven from this state of corruption that many deny but all wo are honest know they have.

Runner, I agreed with you right up to the last sentence, and there we part ways, sorry. You use Jesus, I use intellect, to the best of my abilities anyway. I guess we'll never know who was right, since even if YOU are, once you die you put all earthly things behind you, don't you?

Always wondered about one thing, Christians believe all their deceased relatives (of good repute), are in Heaven, and they pray/talk, whatever, to them, asking them to intercede with the Angels, Heavenly authorities etc, on their behalf, right?
Sounds a lot like all the various other forms of what's derisively called "Ancestor worship", to me. I realise Christians aren't "worshipping" their dead, but neither are most of the others.

I feel the powers to pull me into my past, into your past, into our past.
I feel the powers to push me on the highway of my future, of your future, of our future.
Listen, the cry of a newborn child, it is the cry of my child, of your child, of our child.
I see far on the horizon black big clouds, the lightings, I heard the thunderbolts, scary weather for me, for you, for us.
The forest gone, the wild animals from the forest gone, I lost them, you lost them, we lost them.
Every where on the beach there are dead fishes, around me, around you, around us.
On our planet thousands children need food, need water, need medicines, need books. These children are my children, your children our children. DO NOT FORGET THEM!
I know it, like it or not, I am part of you and you are part of me, we not only have common past but we will have common future ...
After the midnight in the graveyeards, the seouls of the deads, start the big celebration, waiting for me, waiting for you, waiting for us!
AS IDIOTS LET'S START THE FIGHTING FROM THE BEGIN! OR WE ARE NOT?
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

*I think we'd all like you to write down more bible quotes.*

Err Houllie, don't encourage them lol. We had Boaz for years,
with his pages and pages of bible quotes, which meant alot
of scrolling. They really believe this stuff and take it
seriously.

Maximillion

Good to hear we can agree on some things. You ask

'Always wondered about one thing, Christians believe all their deceased relatives (of good repute), are in Heaven, and they pray/talk, whatever, to them, asking them to intercede with the Angels, Heavenly authorities etc, on their behalf, right?
Sounds a lot like all the various other forms of what's derisively called "Ancestor worship", to me. I realise Christians aren't "worshipping" their dead, but neither are most of the others.'

'Good' is relative in most people's eyes. I think John Howard is a 'good man' while many on OLO think he is a demon. The thief on the cross wasn't what I suspect you would call good. It is repentant sinners (ie) believers who will be heaven because of Christ's goodness not our own. It is faith in God's goodness rather than man's perceived goodness that matters.

As far as praying to the dead besides some in the Catholic church, Spiritualist and psychics I know of no one who prays to the dead. I think you are right in saying it sounds like ancestor worship. Christ actually came to set us free from such pagan practices. The bible reveals we should only pray to and worship God Himself. No Christian I know (and I know many across many denominations) would pray to the dead.

Houellebecq

"I'm a bit disappointed all I've generated is boring nodding 'yes it was better in the good 'ol days, I'm a good parent etc ...

Hmm how can I liven things up. Perhaps society has been too feminised."

If you really wanted the discussion to become a gender bashing exercise, which as CJ has already pointed out of course you did, you should have made that clear in your opening post. It's poor form to turn around now and tell everyone how boring they've made your thread when your intentions were never clear enough to begin with.

In fact, I think you need to take your own advice and accept responsibility for the failure of your thread, instead of blaming the rest of us for boring you!

"Maybe I'll go more Fractelle-like and claim that my motivation for the topic was ... "

Well, I'll say one thing, Fractelle's threads are certainly never boring.

Yes, Houellebecq, you could learn a lot from studying the way Fractelle initiates and facilitates a thread. It's highly improbable you'll ever match her skill, but keep practising. :)

That is enough of the Bible for one day. It is the basis of all contract law, and a misreading of it, and a lack of real understanding that women and men are equal in the eyes of Almighty God, has led us to interpose our own thinking for that of the Almighty. Within that short passage posted earlier, is a two hour lesson, and if the largest and oldest Church was not dominated by celibate men, they would accept that divorce as is marriage is given as a gift by Jesus Christ when both the man and the woman agree it is in the interests of both parties.( 18)

The Father is executive director of the universe. Like the Queen he cannot be everywhere so he invented delegation. In the successful societies, this delegate was a Christian, and knew through feeling in his heart, that he was such a delegate, but as the servant could not put himself above his master. His Master, gave us the law. The Law he gave us was the law of feeling, not the law of logic. That is why we pray. We pray and to this day a request to a court is called a prayer, to a higher power, with feeling. We pray because we believe our request is just. This is the basis of all good government.

Jury trial is the application of the ultimate feeling authority. Lawyers will tell you Statute law is paramount, but they are intrinsically con men anyway. From 1670 when William Penn was able to convince a jury, under immense pressure from a lawyer, to acquit him, the jury has been the implement of God’s will. They abolished the abomination that was called the Federal Magistrates Court this week. Every time it sat in Bankruptcy, because it could not offer a jury, it has had to remit the matter to the Federal Court, which can offer a jury trial, but never sits with one. A lawyer without a Bible is like a three legged dog. He may get around but will never go fast enough

Pet' the Bel'...You grind that axe in every thread on every subject, it makes your posts irrelevant, and boring, sorry to say.
Not worth reading, to put it bluntly.
Why not take it as a given that we all know your views on courts, lawyers et. al., and just stick to the theme of the thread?
I'm sure you have a lot to contribute, if you could just get off your old hobby-horse for a while.

I think the ladies are ineffect close to the mark as I see it.
I look at it like this we are all imperfect and could improve the way we relate to other particularly to strangers....(that community thing...Golden rule etc.)

The base who we are is pretty much immutable. But *most* of our attitudes are learned and therefore can be unlearned or modified.

The question posed is in essence how much of our attitudes are *us* I would suggest none, only the immutable part is the true us. i.e. Are you lesser you because you change your attitude toward “in your face” as you learn there are better ways? How about that hideous lamp your late mother in law gave your wife that now she loves? Are you any less you because you compromise?
If we are good grief! we all are doomed to become lesser us as we age and learn.
Life is about change.

As a species/culture/community/individuals we are dominated by the broad principle of evolution.(regardless of if it was god initiated or not) No one who understands evolution would suggest that every change is always linear betterment. In is that which is most appropriate for our circumstances(adaptability...i.e. Change). It seems to me that the key purpose of our struggle on all levels is to ensure that the for the betterment of all levels.
Hence change is a conflict between progression or regression. So if change helps others and therefore indirectly us (more harmonious community) Where's the problem?

It seems to me that there are two reasons we don't change.
Either we are so perfect that change would be a retrograde step.(now that would be superiority on steroids)
Or we're so brittle/afraid to change we're..... well you finish it.

The problem with victim-hood is that it takes away people's power. A dramatic example is what has happened to far too many Aborigines since 1967. Unfortunately they have been convinced by often well meaning people that their problems is someone elses. While the is a strong element of truth in this statement the second part of the message is that someone else has to do something to fix the problem.

Yet the reality in many cases is that it is the individual/community, and only the individual/community that has the power to fix the problem. These are the people who decide what they are going to eat, when they are going to take their sick child to the medical centre and whether their children are going to go to school. Yes there are things that governments etc. can do to help and yes there are features of traditional culture that may complicate some of these issues. However, Aborigines are the only ones with the power to make cultural adaptions, and, in the areas I am familiar with, inadequate government help was not the key problem.

Sometimes victims really do need outside help. However, in most cases the best thing outsiders can do to help is to point out who really does have the power to make a difference and to resist the temptation to help with a quick fix.

Very true JohnD.If you want to help people,you don't give them fish,you give them rod and show them how to fish.Then they are no longer victims.