Should Australian governments provide leadership training programmes to young people with eligibility dependent on their religious beliefs?
If not, why not?
If so, should practitioners of all faiths have equal opportunity?
The Federal and Victorian governments are fully subsidising a Leadership Training Programme for Young Muslims.
“There is a need for young Muslim leaders to emerge who can
speak clearly and confidently about the various issues which
confront people of Islamic faith in Australia today, and who can
participate fully in shaping Australia’s future.”
http://www.icv.org.au/files/muslim_training_programme_2009.pdf
Muslims make up 1.7% of the Australian population.
http://www.racismnoway.com.au/library/cultural/index-Diversit-3.html
Are there equivalent government funded programs to train leaders from the Buddhist (2.1%), Hindu (0.7%) or Jewish (0.4%) communities to help them “participate fully in shaping Australia’s future”?
If not, why not?
How can such a programme be reconciled with the principle of the separation of church and state, particularly in light of the apparently increasing marginalization of Christian viewpoints on social and political issues as illustrated by Race Discrimination Commissioner Tom Calma’s statement that “there is a growing fundamentalist religious lobby, in areas such as same-sex relationships, stem-cell research and abortion”.
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has said that “he would keep religion and politics separate.”
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22847361-5005961,00.html
Why then are future community leaders being selected for training on the basis of their (Islamic) faith?

What criteria should we use?
Test scores, ability to pay, membership of particular groups, pick them at random?
I think you will find numerous similar programs involving groups like scouts, private schools, the military, other religions, universities, indigenous groups, charities, businesses of all kinds and government programs. Are they wrong too?
Just picking one and slagging it off as somehow racist or unfair is just appalling and I call shenanigans here. Seems to me like a thinly veiled dig at muslims and quite underhandedly racist.

mikk: << Seems to me like a thinly veiled dig at muslims and quite underhandedly racist. >>

Indeed. Clearly, KMB would rather that young Muslim Australians remain alienated from the dominant Australian society, so that he and others of his ilk can complain about antisocial manifestations of that alienation.

Heaven forbid that our governments might proactively engage with our Muslim communities in a program via which young Muslims might learn appropriate leadership skills and citizenship responsibilities.

CJ

Never thought I'd say this, but KMB kinda makes me miss Boaz/Carp: underneath all his bluster; anti-muslim, anti-female equality, anti-atheist, underneath his many layers of prejudice, the man actually did have a heart.

With KMB, we have someone who expresses all the same kind of prejudices but denies having a religion, even though his professed opinions dove-tail neatly with extreme-right Christian conservatism.

Oh, yeah, topic:

If a person has the qualifications for a job, has the ability to understand issues beyond the limitations of any formal religion. In fact demonstrates they have a capacity to lead, what should religion have to do with selection criteria?

I am the first to complain when people like Tony Abbott let their religion dictate their governance, but many other people of note, who may or may not be religious, are able to consider the needs of people and put their personal beliefs aside for the greater good, for example, safe abortion and contraception.

Your complaint, as I see it KMB, is based upon the following information.

"LEADERSHIP TRAINING PROGRAMME for Young Muslims organised by the Centre for Dialogue at La Trobe University in association with the Islamic Council of Victoria. With the support of the Government of Victoria and the Commonwealth of Australia through the Regional Communities Outreach Program of DFAT"

To me, this is nothing more than another in an endless chain of make-work projects, instigated by public servants who are on constant look-out for ways in which to i) spend the taxpayers' dollar and ii) in the process, justify their own salaries, also paid for by the taxpayer.

A list of equally deserving activities that benefit from the money that is extracted from my pocket, and my company's pocket, will be an extremely long one. Just a list of university "research projects" that are funded by us in this manner would turn the air blue.

But be honest with yourself, KMB. The fact that it involves Muslims is, specifically, the reason you chose to moan about this one over the thousands of others, isn't it?

Pericles cuts straight to the chase.

Will KMB give honest answer or obfuscate?.... stay tuned.

When government gets into the business of "training leaders" it has first to get into the business of "selecting leaders"

my observation of government's ability to select is

It will be as good at selecting leaders as it is at selecting any other sort of "winner"...

which means

the "leaders" to graduate from this type of program are condemned to fall over in a mild breeze, forget standing up in a storm.

Collins Class Submarines - ok so long as you don't want to submerge
Button Car Plan...
Bracks Car Plan...

Hawke and Beazley... Rhodes scholars and the "winners" behind the collins class subs and winners by association of dip-stick car plans.

Dear KMB,

The Leadership Training Program for young Muslims
of which you speak is part of MANY programs
on offer at the Centre for Dialogue at La Trobe
University. You give the impression that only
Muslims are being catered for. Not the case.

I refer you to the following website:

http://www.josephcamilleri.com/proj/curr/cfd.htm

The website tell us, "The establishment of the
Centre for Dialogue was approved by the Academic
Board of La Trobe University in 2005 and commenced
functioning in late 2006. This is a major initiative
which will have not only local and national but
international significance."

"The Centre for Dialogue features these characteristics:

1) It is inter-cultural (exploring a great MANY religious
and cultural traditions) and inter-disciplinary (bringing
together the insights of many disciplines, including cultural studies, religious studies, education, international relations,
sociology, law, philosophy, history, and economics).

It serves several interrelated functions:

It had the full support of the previous Prime Minister -
John Howard. On its Board of Advisors are people like:

Mr Brian Ashen/Buddhist Council of Victoria.
Ms Margaret Tonkin/ Pax Christi Victoria
Dr Peta Goldburg/ Head of School of Religious Education,
Australian Catholic University
Mr George Lekakis/Chairperson, Victorian Multicultural
Commission.
Mr Simon Tisher/Multicultural and Interfaith Officer,
Jewish Community Council of Victoria

And many more. The Board of Management includes people like
Reverand Phillip Huggins/Bishop of the Anglican Diocese of
Melbourne's Northern Region, Professor Sandy Gifford Director,
Refugee Health Research Centre, La Trobe University, Proefessor
Spencer Zifcak/ Allan Myers Chair in Law and Director,
Institute of Legal Studies, Australian Catholic University.

The Muslim Training Program is only one of the projects
that has been establised and this was a start because to
help with the handling of tensions between Islam and the
West since Sept. 11th.

However the long-term aim of the Centre is for collaboration
between institutions and individuals located in such centres
as Naples, Oxford, Heidelberg, Moscow, Hawaii, Kuala Lumpur,
Manila, Shanghai, Nagoya, Tehran, Jerusalem, Istanbul,
Athens, and Nicosia.

Simply talking ONLY about Muslims - is not an accurate, and a
very narrow point of view, and not the aim of the Centre
at all.

Foxy

Thank you for the full background to KMB's claim, which provides the necessary perspective in which to view this discussion thread.

You know what I find quite amusing?

Consider this - if we break down this recurring 'Islam' issue into the basic perceptions of the problem (exaggerated for the sake of this example, but taking each extreme allows us to examine the full spectrum) then we realise how foolish posts such as this are:

Possibility A: the bulk of muslims are simple people who want to live and let live.

The reality of this possibility: If this is the case, we're dealing with idiotic bigotry.

Possibility B: Islam is a threat to modern democracy and we should all be wailing and running to the hills.

The reality: if this is the case, then with a large portion of the world being of this religion, then antagonising them would be idiocy. Wouldn't a better idea be to try and engage with them?
Even if the die-hard anti-muslim brigade see this as 'subverting' muslims into moderacy, then wouldn't these kind of government subversion programs be a good thing? Wouldn't poking at them with this kind of comment, be just plain stupid?

So again, we see idiocy.

So, here are the brutal facts:

1) This program doesn't appear to just be for muslims, and if it is, then as evidenced by threads such as this, there is friction which needs to be addressed.

2) If muslims are indeed the global threat that certain conspiracy theorists fear, then having a dialogue with moderates is our best hope, as you can't simply bomb them into oblivion. There will always be a lot of muslims. Get used to it.

Frankly, it's pretty clear this thread is a stalking horse for other issues anyway.

Well researched Foxy.

It puts the whole topic into perspective and in a more honest light.

Storm in a teacup.

ALL deluded people should have leadership training.
Go ahead,waste more of my tax money.

Foxy,
<<The Leadership Training Program for young Muslims
of which you speak is part of MANY programs
on offer at the Centre for Dialogue at La Trobe
University.>>
All universities have MANY programmes.
The mere existence of other programmes does not justify any individual programme.
Where are the fully government funded Leadership Training Programmes for Young Buddhists, Young Hindus, Young Exclusive Brethren, Young Catholics, etc?
I still can't seem to find them at the site you linked to.
<<You give the impression that only
Muslims are being catered for. Not the case.>>
You give the impression that young people of other faiths are being catered for.
Can you give a direct link to the sites so that young Buddhists, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Sikhs etc, can apply for these programmes?
I personally can't see why a supposedly secular government is giving Young Leadership Programmes where eligibility is based on adherence to a particular faith and, if it is, why are similar programmes not available in equal measure to young people of all religions?
I find your comment that
<<It had the full support of the previous Prime Minister -
John Howard.>>
particularly amusing.
The Pacific Solution also had John Howard's full support, so I'm assuming that justifies it in your eyes too?

Word to the wise, KMB.

When you're at the bottom of a hole, stop digging.

Accept the fact that you have been caught wearing your whack-a-mozzie T-shirt, and lie low for a while.

You know it makes sense.

Dear KMB,

The website I
gave quite clearly states what its
functions are, and gives
a list of projects that have been established
to date. However, for any further additional
information you may
contact them on (03) 9479-2140. They'll be able
to answer whatever you wish to know.

If you found my mentioning the fact that the former
Australian Prime Minister John Howard supported this initiative,
"amusing,"
then you'll really find it hilarious, that he wasn't the only
one who did. "Distinguished scholars, international research
centres, religious leaders and twenty five foreign
governments" did also.

This is not about a single entity receiving preferential
treatment - "several promising research and educational projects have
emerged since the Centre's opening." However as I said -
give them a ring to learn more.

Foxy,
You say that <<This is not about a single entity receiving preferential treatment>>
There are no Leadership Training Programs for people of any faith other than Young Muslims.
Isn't this preferential treatment?
You quote that <<"several promising research and educational projects have emerged since the Centre's opening.">>
Just because an institution has produced "several promising research and educational projects" does this absolve it of observing basic equity considerations?
Furthermore, the mere fact that La Trobe University's New Centre for Dialogue has illustrious support does not validate its exclusion of young non-Muslim people from equivalent leadership programs.
I am betting that if the Centre for Dialogue was running a fully government funded Leadership Training Program for Young Exclusive Brethren, and no-one else, you would view the situation entirely differently.

Should We Train Leaders...Based on Their Religious Belief?..raises an interesting juxtposition,should leaders be trained according to their beliefs,or acording to our expectations of what we expect from a leader..based on our higher expectation based on our own more benevolant humanistic beliefs.

the current system of chosing those who lead us isnt working.. we have political hack's.. who know the political;systems..getting the control over party selection, funding, exicution as well as the process from birth to grave...based on a selective bonus availment system.

john howhard made sure politically organised[reprisentative resistance is impossable..[he arranged for the hemp/[help end marijuana prohibition]party ..amoung others..to be sent back to the wilderness via systemised political process,..ended the ability of elected people to form parties,and many other political machinations..[to the nett affect of stifiling voices of discent]

but the thing is the process dosnt train nothing but ever increasding mediocracy..[if anything its a learning of how to sellout and give favour for favour]..where the contacts made by being in govt ensure an ongoing perpetualised[centralised]elite's cartel

making[seeking]only their own comfort and advantages[and ridiculously a life long pension and over generous superanuation sceme that makes sure the cream for loyal party service has ongoing affects laughingly called public service

the only religion held by our politicoes is a feigned religious form of christian/judeic perversity,..paid in full by lip service, and betrayal of the public weal..[were govt truelly xtian it would reveal a love of neighbour..[not love oppression and perpetual war on neighbour and citisenry alike]

[the current training system has failed the vast majority of us]..the party loyalty is hardly worthy..yet remains a fondly and religiously held self-selective belief system..devised by demons creating demon-autoc-rat-tic-/auto-cracy..auto-[crazy]

Dear KMB,

Again, you're simply focusing on only one thing.
You looking at one program that is currently
running - and you're assuming that this is being
done to the exclusion of other faiths. It isn't.
As I said in my previous post - the Centre has only
been running since late 2006. It was set up to
specialise in the theory and practice of dialogue
across ALL religious, cultural, political and
economic dimensions both nationally and internationally.
That is its purpose.

It has on its Board of Advisors - representatives from
the Buddhist Council of Australia, Pax Christi Victoria,
Australian Catholic University, Uniting Church of Australia,
Jewish Community Council of Victoria, Victorian Council of
Churches just to name a few. The Bishop of the Anglican
Diocese of Melbourne's Northern Region - Right Reverand Phillip
Huggins is on the Board of Management.

Surely this to you must indicate that this a Centre
that covers all faiths, and not just the one program
that is currently running and on which you've chosen to focus.
No one is being excluded - except by you.
The aim of the Centre is
about inclusion - not exclusion - as the management and
organisation of the Centre clearly indicates.

Again, as I said in my previous post - give them a ring -
ask about other programs - satisfy yourself. The reason
the Centre was set up was to promote greater understanding
and tolerance between different societies, cultures, and
faiths. But then if you'd really read the initial website
that I gave you'd realize and understand that.

Dear KMB,

Again, you're simply focusing on only one thing.
You looking at one program that is currently
running - and you're assuming that this is being
done to the exclusion of other faiths. It isn't.
As I said in my previous post - the Centre has only
been running since late 2006. It was set up to
specialise in the theory and practice of dialogue
across ALL religious, cultural, political and
economic dimensions both nationally and internationally.
That is its purpose.

It has on its Board of Advisors - representatives from
the Buddhist Council of Australia, Pax Christi Victoria,
Australian Catholic University, Uniting Church of Australia,
Jewish Community Council of Victoria, Victorian Council of
Churches just to name a few. The Bishop of the Anglican
Diocese of Melbourne's Northern Region - Right Reverand Phillip
Huggins is on the Board of Management.

Surely this to you must indicate that this a Centre
that covers all faiths, and not just the one program
that is currently running and on which you've chosen to focus.
No one is being excluded - except by you.
The aim of the Centre is
about inclusion - not exclusion - as the management and
organisation of the Centre itself clearly indicates.

Again, as I said in my previous post - give them a ring -
ask about other programs - satisfy yourself. The reason
the Centre was set up was to promote greater understanding
and tolerance between different societies, cultures, and
faiths. But then if you'd really read the initial website
that I gave you'd realize and understand that - I suspect
you didn't read anything that I've previously posted.
All that's stuck in your mind is only one thing. Which
of course prevents you from seeing the entire picture.

If Muslims get into positions where they can make important decisions
it will be the end for female equality and for democracy.

Train them to be secular.
Religion is nonsense.
Look at the state of the countries they come from.
Bring it here?.
NO THANKS.

Foxy,

You were right after all. Sort of...

There are also leadership training programs for young Christians held at the University of Queensland, except these are run by Christian groups and the participants pay all the costs. The University merely provides the venue.

Comparing the two:

"There is to be a leadership training program for young Christians. It is to be held at the University of Queensland. The program extends over 7 days. It will cost each participant $675.
http://www.compass.org.au/pages/2009_Brochure_AU_web.pdf

There is to be a leadership training program for young Muslims. It is to be held at the Latrobe Victoria, plus a 3 capital-city study tour. The program extends over 21 days. There are no costs for the participants as it is fully subsidised by the Federal and Victorian Governments.
http://www.icv.org.au/files/muslim_training_programme_2009.pdf "

http://www.acl.org.au/national/browse.stw?article_id=27329

7 days for $675 at participants cost
vs
21 days fully taxpayer funded?

Sounds like jizya to me.

I emailed the Centre for Dialogue 48 hours ago enquiring as to other programs they run for other religious groups but have received no reply.

Dear KMB,

Firstly let me say how pleased I am that you
actually went to the trouble of emailing the
Centre for Dialogue about their programs.
I'll keep my fingers-crossed that they will
reply. Anyway - you've now gone up in my
esteem. Well done - it just shows me that
I've possibly misjudged you.

Well done.

Perhaps you'd now like to google, "The Centre for Dialogue,"
yourself and find out what they're all about -
I think that would also help you understand things
better.

Foxy,
That's where I got their email address from!

Dear KMB,

Fair enough!