We are about to ban the use of plastic carry bags in retail stores but is this going to be 'faulse ecconomy'.

Now apart from the hygiene issues, how many of these little critters get re-used in ways such as 'garbage bin linners' and, once they are gone, what will we replace them with other than a 'plastic garbage bin linner'.

Perhaps we should be buying stock in the bin linner manufaturing companies hey!

What did people do in the old days? What did we use to line our bins before plastic shopping bags? Did people even do it? I remember a lot of wrapping things in newspaper when I was a kid.
Are we about to see a return of the brown paper shopping bag?

I've been using green bags for shopping and bio-degradable liners for bins for a long time now. I've been told on fairly good authority though that the so-called degradable plastic doesn't actually break down, in most landfill situations, nearly as readily as it is claimed to do, due to lack of oxygen I think it was.

Mikk is on the right track. We could gain much from a return to some of the simpler ways of the past. Without plastic bags, we'll just have to become more creative and I've no doubt we will. A complete ban is the only way to get us all to that point. Well done to the SA Government. Let's hope the others follow suit soon.

As for hygiene concerns with reusable bags, that's a complete furphy. I've used the same few bags for years and never washed any of them, until today actually. The bases of them were getting slightly grubby looking so I've thrown them in the washing machine and they've survived brilliantly. So yes, they can be washed very easily, but if not, they're hardly likely, as implied, to become a health hazard.

Here's a hypo for you bronywn

Take a green bag and place your goods in them, one of them being a cooked chicken, hot.

Now some of the juice leaks into the bottom of the bag, so what.

The next day you go again and you buy grapes amoung other things. Now the grapes sit in some of the dried juice from the chicken which is by now teaming with bactiria.

Your little one eats a grape while waiting for you to finnish your shopping and guess what, it has been contaminated by the chicken juice.

There are many other egamples of why hygeine is an issue.

Now back to the bin without a linner.

We can't wash them every day now with water retrictions, acept on the odd days hey!

rehctub

A little care, commonsense and forward planning should overcome any such issues in most cases.

If you're worried about a chicken bag or anything else leaking, you could take along a thick plastic bag which most people save and reuse. There are also reusable cooler bags available at most supermarkets, which are good for cold items if you're concerned about dampness. And when meaty or messy spills or leakages do occur, there is always the washing machine.

Regarding the bin, using paper bags shouldn't be a problem if your kitchen waste is basically dry. Green waste can be composted and liquid waste buried. Or, if you go liner-free, again if you're a little more mindful of keeping your waste as dry as possible, you shouldn't have to wash your bin out every day. An occasional wipe over with paper towelling and disinfectant, for those who obsess over germs, should eliminate the need for constant washing apart from the occasional day where mess has occurred.

Granted, the green council bins could end up in a slightly messier state if kitchen waste is thrown in loosely rather than bagged in plastic, but a quick hose down if necessary when you bring it in on collection day should keep that problem at bay, without much hassle or water wastage.

It might require a little more thought and effort than most of us have to this date given to our waste disposal, but hey that won't hurt us. The days of tossing it out without further thought should be well and truly behind us.

When you see the damage plastic bags cause the environment reverting to cloth bags is all worthwhile.

Bronwyn said the cloth bags wash up well (mine need doing too) so if you do get a leaky chook then throw that bag in the washing.

A little inconvenience, and it is not really an inconvenience, for a greater good is nothing in the scheme of things.

Bronwyn & Pelican

I follow similar measures to you. Although I am guilty of not having a compost heap. I do put out old fruit for the possums.

Leaking food items, Rehctub? Common sense as defined by previous posters.

I have finally established a routine with taking my reusable bags with me on shopping trips - a handy hook by the door so I can grab them on the way out (I also hang keys there as well).

As for banning plastic bags outright, I don't understand why we can't make them all biodegradable, also saves on oil by using plant products. However it appears to be not all that straight forward as I found with the following article:

"The degradable versus conventional plastic bag argument is very complex. Some question whether there is any benefit in using degradable plastic bags if they are just going straight to landfill, as they may not break down in the dry anaerobic conditions found in most Australian landfills.

Alternatively if they do break down they may contribute to the generation of methane, which is a potent greenhouse gas (although if methane capture technologies for energy generation are in place at the landfill this may not be such a problem).

The impact of degradable plastic bags on recycling programs for conventional plastics still requires further research. Generally it is feared that contamination of recycling processes with degradable plastics may interfere with the recycling processes and undermine the durability of the recycled plastics products produced."

http://www.environment.gov.au/settlements/waste/degradables/faqs.html

Cheers

rehctub,
I can't see the benefit for the Bin Bags either. To me they are a 'marketing con job' under most circumstances they serve no useful purpose.

Sometime back I was part of a test on 50/50 bag and bagless bins for bacteria.
Where it counted the handles, lids etc. (contact points) there was little difference. Keep in mind it doesn't take too many bacteria to set up a colony.
Bugs, flies, mice, birds or the passing non toilet trained gecko can all set up the colonies of bacteria (s).

I clean our bins thoroughly after each empty with a light solution of chlorine and water (bleach) leaving it to stand for a while with the fumes. PS most sterilisers are based on Chlorine incl. Milton.

Likewise most people think that liners keep their bins clean (bacteria free) and have been conditioned by the ads/manufactures that way. Nothing will replace a little effort. If you want “clean bin” liners don't save time you still have to clean.

The tests found that the less infected bins were the ones that froze their meat/liquid waste then wrapped it in newspaper (local press has a use after all). Paper decomposes in land fill plastic doesn't and Veggie waste composted plus cleaning.

The real villain is the packaging particularly the the “blow or clear bubble packs” (waste, waste, waste. About 48 % of our waste stream is non recyclable packaging etc. Make no mistake this packaging is for the retailer's benefit and in some cases it can be over 30% of the cost. This doesn't include liners.

Plastic is “over used” for commercial reasons. Then there is the pollution and wildlife issues which are horrendous.

I am neither a germ freak or a rabid greenie but just some one who is budget/ marketing concious. I choose where I spend my limited funds not some ad/retailer/manufacturer marketing dept.

examinator

"I clean our bins thoroughly after each empty with a light solution of chlorine and water (bleach) leaving it to stand for a while with the fumes."

For someone who isn't a 'germ freak', examinator, you go to an awful lot of effort to create a germ-free bin. :)

So, you're not a 'rabid greenie'. More's the pity I think. You'd only need to be mildly green to ditch using bleach with such gay abandon.

Sorry to be so tough, examinator, but your halo has definitely slipped a little in my eyes. It was up there very high though you do understand! :)

I don't understand the focus on plastic bags. I am often dismayed at how much rubbish we put in out wheelie bin. But plastic bags are but a tiny portion of it. If I had the energy to reduce the amount of rubbish we put in there, the plastic bags would not be where I would start. And besides unlike most of the rubbish in there we actually recycled them at least once.

It also seems people focus on the bags not degrading. Again, I don't understand the focus. Why care? Yes paper and cardboard do degrade while in landfill. But mostly into CO2 and methane, and it is not obvious just leaving the carbon in the ground as plastic bags do isn't a better choice. The breakdown of the carbon has the side effect of making the land they are dumped onto useless - it subsides as the material rots. The plastic on the other could be recycled if we put out mind to it - even if it is just as stable landfill.

It seems to me the main problem plastic bags have is image - they are in your face. Their one downside seems to be when they don't end up in landfill, but rather leak into the wider environment - the sea or as rubbish on the side of out roads. There they can be a problem. But they are also exposed to the sun, water and oxygen, so will break down over a few years.

Bronwyn: "You'd only need to be mildly green to ditch using bleach"

It is cheap to produce, the raw material (sea water) will never run out, production doesn't have nasty by-products and the by-products it does produce are re-used. It degrades rapidly, is one of the most powerful disinfectants we have at out disposal which makes it great for sterilising other things they we can re-cycle. If you use a high-tech alternative instead of bleach, you will be causing more damage to the environment, not less.

I'll take a bob each way on this.

I think Reccers make a fair point. WE know what to do because we's smart! But you can bet your Uggs that there will be some cross contamination, from those who don't give a stuff. And it concerns me that IF supermarkets try to avoid confrontation, by putting some filthy bags in the holder arms there IS a possibility of spreading germs.

We are a grubby lot. I have yet to see one cooking programme for instance that ever states as part of the process,-that hygiene is crucial. They mention it on occasion, but never concentrate on how vital it is.

And yes,-I use my bags to line my indoor bin - and I'm in SA! BUT:

it had to stop. We have to get back to a less wasteful situation. These bags are an environmental hazard;..which is why it is so annoying that they ONLY have been banned. The heavy plastic bags-in my view-are just as unnecessary, and the excessive packaging?
Don't get me started!

Examinator, when I was still producing useful things, I had many examples of the stupid packaging required to be able to sell "stuff" through retailers.

EG, An item cost $2.00, the display packaging cost $4.00, & it cost $8.00 average to deliver it to a retailer.

If I could have depended on retailers to know their products, I could have delivered 10 items in a box for $32.00, instead of 2 for the same $32.00. The item could have sold for $4.80, not $24.00 each.

When it comes to plastic bags, however, the whole thing highlights just how bad our pollies are.

The usless tokenism of this gesture is disgusting.

Those pollies who don't know it is a meaningless gesture are either idiots, & should be removed, or too lazy to be worth having.

Those who are well aware of the total lack of fact behind the whole campaign, & still vote for this ban, are pandering to a few activists, & are beneath contempt.

Of course, if the public are too lazy to get the facts, we will continue to get this quality of government, & deserve it, I guess.

There are no real problems using the fabric bags.
I even use one of those plastic boxes like milk crates in the supermarket.
Have you noticed the much larger number of plastic bags used in the
fruit and veg shops ?

Hasbeen, that's exactly the point I was making I was quoting from old figures.

Bronwyn, the sad thing is that the waste stream is only part of the story of greening the environment. One needs also to consider the ecological cost/availability of the alternatives and the cost of manufacture (rstuat's point). If you compare the dilution rate of what I use then compare the damage it does (?) when compared to that of expensive marketed cleaner products or plastic bags I think your criticism of me is a little unjust....I think I gonna sulk now.... Ok that's over I back to normal (for me anyway).

rstuart, The other issue as I see it is both the damage these dam things (including packaging is both their bulk in landfill but the environmental damage particularly in the sea.
Several animals mistake them for jelly fish and choke. Sea birds get tangled up in them. From where I sit and observe given I have a daughter about to finish her double degree in science/environment (specialising in turtles, dugongs, sharks dolphins, sea snakes etc.) and my involvement bush care (plastic bags in water ways their damage is surprisingly wide effecting) plastic bags aren't my favourite product.

Everyone. On the pragmatic level for me is that plastic comes from oil. I wonder how we're going to provide all those other (more important products in the future) with out reasonably priced oil. Think for a moment how many products you use and are indispensable to western living. No computers, forget the fuel, no cars as we know them, no fridges, microwaves, blenders, TVs, stereos, MP3 players, drugs, flavourings, mobile phones, ( shows you that not all is bad) and horror of horrors no fermenters for my home brew!

examinator: "The other issue ... is ... the environmental damage particularly in the sea."

Its the only issue as I see it examinator, and it is fairly serious. But if that is the problem it is amenable to solutions aside from a ham fisted ban. Legislating that bags must degrade rapidly in sea water would be another solution. And why restrict it to shopping bags - I doubt they are bulk of the problem. Other plastic packaging materials would outnumber them by large a margin.

As for them using oil - they do, but it is a minuscule amount compared to what we use for transport. Literally a drop in an Olympic swiming pool. It is even necessary. They could use some other feed stock to make the plastic like coal or plant material, oil just happens to be cheapest right now.

I've just come across an interesting site:

http://www.plasticbageconomics.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&itemid=31

Plastic bags friend or foe?

This website really brings the message home regarding the
enormous damage that plastic bags do to the
environment. We're told that, "...plastic bags
make up 80% of the volume of the litter on roads,
parks, and beaches and they make up 90% of floating
litter in the ocean."

"Over 100,000 different birds seals, and whales die
every year. The horrible thing is that after the
animals die and their carcasses decompose the plastic
is free to roam the ocean and kill again."

Turtles mistake the plastic bags for jelly fish and
eat them, thereby suffocating.

Plastic bags have a bad effect on coral reefs -
and the list goes on.

Banning them is not an option we have.

It's essential.

Foxy: "Over 100,000 different birds seals, and whales die every year."

Foxy you are quoting a activist site. The quoted figures might be facts, but the words "It is estimated that over a 100,000 ..." don't bode well. So I went looking, and found this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3508263.ece

In summary, for those who don't follow links:

"The central claim of campaigners is that the bags kill more than 100,000 marine mammals and one million seabirds every year. However, this figure is based on a misinterpretation of a 1987 Canadian study in Newfoundland, which found that, between 1981 and 1984, more than 100,000 marine mammals, including birds, were killed by discarded nets. The Canadian study did not mention plastic bags."

rstuart,
If you were handy I would invite you on one of my patrols and you could see my part of the world. I agree my perspective maybe coloured by what I and my contact field see daily .
I would suggest that figure are hard to come by but one turtle rescue group tell me they see plastic carrier bag fatalities at the rate of about 14 per week (not just in turtles). Given that many of these species are either protected or potentially endangered it is a problem.

I also doubt that degradable plastic would make little difference .

I do agree that there are many causes rather than 1 but they are a large contributive factor.
I still contend that plastic bags and much of the packaging is unnecessary. But then again I see making some thing for money and having to create a market as a perversion of the fundamentals of capitalism.
More info about fossil fuels in plastics please.

examinator

"If you compare the dilution rate of what I use then compare the damage it does (?) when compared to that of expensive marketed cleaner products or plastic bags I think your criticism of me is a little unjust...."

I agree I might have been a little harsh, especially if you're not using bin liners, but that wasn't clear to me in your original post. So I'm very sorry. I'll put the halo back up where it was!

The point I was driving at regarding the bleach was why use any? But if you're not using bin liners, well I'll concede there may be a need to splash a bit of bleach around occasionally. Though at the risk of bringing on another fit of the sulks, I still think every day is a bit much. :)

Examinator, I'm sorry to say, mate, someone is being a little loose with the truth, with the figures they are quoting to you, going by my experience.

That includes, 8 years living on my yacht, in Sydney harbour, a claimed hot spot for plastic bags.

53,000 nautical miles around the near pacific islands, including nine trips along our east coast in that yacht, anchoring in isolated places.

8 years running tourist boats, including inshore & outer reef fishing trips, in the Whitsunday islands area.

I have walked hundred of miles of isolated beaches, & coast lines through out all these areas, & have found more broken thongs, than plastic bags. Perhaps we should ban this type of footwear.

In all that, I have NEVER seen anything tangled in a plastic bag, or found any plastic bag residue in any fish guts. I have found bits of blue plastic, which I believe was from milk bottle tops, but little else.

I am horrified that these myths have led to such garbage legislation.

examinator: "More info about fossil fuels in plastics please."

My comment was a throw away line, based on my rudimentary knowledge of chemistry. Here is what I do know. Shopping bags are usually made from Polyethylene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene although for the sake of this discussion it could be any plastic. Plastic's are just long chain hydrocarbons. The easiest way to make a long chain hydrocarbon is to start with a short chain hydro carbon, and join them together. Oil consists mostly of hydrocarbons, so it is a convenient starting point, and currently the cheapest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon

A hydrocarbon is just a combination of the elements hydrogen and carbon. There is a well understood commercial process, called the Fischer-Tropsch process, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch which produces hydrocarbons from any carbon source and water. It commonly used to produce fuels (petrol, diesel), from coal or plant material. The source of the hydrogen is water. In other words, the Fischer-Tropsch makes oil from just about any carbon source and water.

examinator: "I also doubt that degradable plastic would make little difference."

Plastics can be made to degrade at the same speed as paper and cardboard. http://www.biobagusa.com/biodegradable-bags.html

Warning the following is just a stream of thought, so may appear as rambling.

I am really enjoying the interesting posts from everyone, given me much food for thought.

Speaking of food - nothing seals like plastic cling wrap, Rstuart just summarised why plastic is plastic. Which started me thinking about cling wrap, without which what would we substitute?

I agree that there is no reason why plastic bags cannot be made from plant sources and degrade at a faster rate than present.

Given that there are workable solutions for the plastic bag, why isn't the focus on excessive packaging? Toys, CD's, DVD's frequently has 3 or more layers to them, now this may be necessary for the protection for surgical equipment, I question the need to overwrap many products.

Once again the focus on "cleaner and greener" appears to be slightly off-centre.

Instead of implementing clean energy sources, the focus is on 'carbon trading'.

Instead of implementing production of degradable plant sourced plastic for the bulk of our plastic needs, the focus is on banning plastic bags.

Instead of increasing public transport, we go round in circles discussing hydrogen versus electric cars.

And wind up doing nothing at all.

There is such a lot that can be done right now with the existing technology, that would create jobs, while we gradually move across to sustainable practices.

Rehctub, in answer to your question, our leaders (political and corporate) have not thought any further than maintaining the status quo by pretending to do something.

What continues to perplex me is not so much that there is no change due to the desire to keep the power hierarchy as it is, but these people have children (don't they?) are they so focussed on the short-term they are incapable of thinking of the world their own children will inherit?

Please explain.

rstuart, and others.
Thanks for the info what I was referring to was the 'drop in an Olympic pool' (throw away line) and other following issues.
The Oceanic wild life issue specifically the problem isn't the rate of derogation so much as the way they look in the water to the wild life.
If they decay in a week that's still a week that they're floating. Once the bag sinks or get caught some where that an altogether different issue and one where the decay time frame 'might' be significant.
I would like more info if you have it can the salt water decay rate be accelerated to less than that of gloss coated cardboard.
Your point on perspective has been well taken hence my bias was stated.
One other further point thus far neglected but relevant to our discussion on perspective and proportion is that most conversations by some is 'the all or nothing' approach i.e. that won't make any real difference, not worth the economic effort. Meanwhile they continue to look for the GUS (grand United Solution) when in truth the solutions is a conglomeration of plans 'solutionettes'. Science , at least my understanding of it is that it is thus comprised.
The skill to me is being able to blend them to in some coherent plan/policy/objective. As opposed to each idea being picked off and dismissed while missing the big effect.

Examinator

I agree that a plastic bag floating in the ocean is a week too long and I see no impediment to both a reduction in use of plastic while increasing use of alternative degradable materials.

You stated: "One other further point thus far neglected but relevant to our discussion on perspective and proportion is that most conversations by some is 'the all or nothing' approach i.e. that won't make any real difference, not worth the economic effort."

I don't think I neglected this aspect at all if you read my post above - quite the contrary.

And I do agree that there is no 'magic bullet', that change will require both a concerted effort on the part of we humans, plus implementing the technology that we do have immediately instead of arguing about it.

Now it seems we are arguing about arguing about it. Not helpful.

examinator: "Thanks for the info what I was referring to was the 'drop in an Olympic pool'."

Oh. Sorry. I admit that was a complete throw away line, as I have no idea what the relative magnitude of plastic bag consumption is. However, since you have challenged me on it, here is a back of the envelope calculation. It could easily be out by an order of magnitude.

Total shopping bag consumption per year in Australia for 2001: 38,850 tons. www.environment.gov.au/settlements/publications/waste/plastic-bags/pubs/analysis.pdf, page 5 para 2.

Total oil consumption in Australia per day in 2007: about 1,000,000 bbl. http://www.indexmundi.com/australia/oil_consumption.html Weight of a barrel of oil is approx 140 kg. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_does_1_barrel_of_crude_oil_weigh

Ergo, percent of oil the plastic bags represent by weight: 0.07%

I have no idea what fraction a drop represents in a swimming pool, but it will far, far less than 0.07%. I am hoping you will nonetheless concede me the point as 0.07% isn't relevant in the scheme of things. Besides, it is all a lie. I just found out the the favoured feed stock for plastic shopping bags is natural gas, not petroleum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_shopping_bag#Composition So maybe the oil drop in a swimming pool is not too far out after all.

examinator: "conversations by some is 'the all or nothing' approach"

True. But reading between the lines the link I posted above, the impact of plastic bags on marine life compared other plastic is so small it isn't measurable. In the mean time turn the nurseries of our oceans, the mangroves, into sea side resorts. Recreational boats dragging anchors degrade our reefs. Fishing nets turn lush marine grass fields into barren areas, killing all the dugongs that used to feed on them. We over fish our fisheries to the point of no return. And yet what do we propose to take drastic action over? Plastic shopping bags - something whose effects are barely measurable beyond the occasional bleeding heart photograph. For gods sake people, get a sense of proportion.

Hasbeen, very good point. I have never seen an animal caught up in plastic. Old netting, fishing line yes, but never plastic, although I don't disbelieve it happens.

I to have fished the whitsundays and strolled for several miles along the shores near weipa and rarely seen a plastic bag.

My list in order would be;
Bottles (without notes inside), plastic buckets, thongs (only ever one), netting, long line floats, but rarely ever plastic bags.

Your point is already acknowledge by me. Sadly the question was on plastic bags. There is no way I would deny that the greater risk is the other things but it is a case of *cumulative* effect. Therefore the the solution(s) will be as stated a cornucopia of small decisions. That is how we got in this mess.
I reject your bleeding heart reference on the same grounds.

Hasbeen
I have direct contact a number of organisations at the sea and research level. Plastic bags are large cause of marine deaths especially around the Qld coast. This is tragically true with breeding age turtles end gravid females.
In recent surveys the warming of their breeding sand is producing females given this gender imbalance and already high attrition rates from all the reasons Previously stated by rstuart, at the current rates turtles in local waters are in real trouble. The other problem is like the injured surfers surfing the really dangerous reefs “you don't see them”.
In the deep water the turtles sink and are eaten before they float.
I would suggest you and rehctub contact sea world at the gold coast and ask them.
NB. I am not intending to make a big issue about this but it IS far more common than people. One gasping/ choking turtle is a slow news day feature. And again there are other issues as well.I also acknowledged this maybe coloured a darker shade of grey because I'm closer to it. Think of it like this I drive a Subaru once you're sensitised to their existence it's amazing how many I see. Are they the biggest number amongst traffic no but they *do* contribute to the traffic problems too.

Fractelle, I did say most I acknowledge that you saw the bigger picture. Onya girl.:-)

examinator: "Sadly the question was on plastic bags."

Precisely. They question was "we are about to ban plastic bags ... [is this worth doing]." Well that is my paraphrase anyway.

When answering questions like this, I always try to quantise the problem - in other words assign numbers to it. The emotive appeal of a turtle with a plastic bag hanging out of its mouth is big, but I am suspicious things that appeal to emotions only. I guess that unease is neatly captured by "I feel, so you must change". Insisting on numbers helps separate the emotion from observable outcomes. Observable outcomes really do effect others. In the end your emotions rarely effect anyone but you.

Looking at the numbers I can find, my guess we will not be able to measure the effect of banning plastic bags. This is because in survey's I found of of animals killed by pollution, the authors didn't bother to mention "death by shopping bag" at all.

Nonetheless you apparently want to ban shopping bags because the death of the odd turtle worries you. Obviously it doesn't worry everybody quite so deeply, and some of them would prefer to keep their plastic bags. So the question becomes, does examinator get to force them from using plastic bags, even though there is no long term observable effect?

We have spoken about this before rechtubs views are close to mine on this issue.
Right now in country towns check out operators tell of people with goats siting in the back of Utes getting the green bags out from under them and walking into shops.
If the swine flue had or does hit us, if deaths come via it, do you want your neighbors bags next to your food?
Why are we focused on bags but have plastic bottles laying in every gutter and creek?
Make a law that lets you have one new plastic bag only for every one you return to shops.

I'll just add my bit to the interesting comments made so far.

Banning shopping bags is in Australia a minor move towards addressing the major issue of excessive packaging in this country. I am actually very surprised that any government in Australia is willing to impose such a ban in the face of the lobbying by vested interests against it. It is also only at most a minor inconvenience to shoppers. It sends a broader message out to the community so has some symbolic value I suppose.

Rwanda and I think Uganda banned these bags years ago because, I recall, they were being used to bury faeces and it was becoming normal to encounter such a package whenever earth was moved. Yuk!

Ireland levies a 15p charge on shopping bags which has proved very successful in reducing usage.

We are a wasteful society and anything we do to reduce that waste is welcome in my eyes but we have a long way to go. Why for instance when I buy aspirin are they only available as individually wrapped packages? Ten years ago when I bought my last lot I was able to get 100 in a little jar. We are in general moving in the wrong direction with packaging - more of it being used not less.

There is more than a the odd one. But having said that and I agree with most of rstuart's reasoning. However quantifying (counting animal carcases) only gives part of the story.
Firstly as I pointed out what numbers are at stake if as in breeding turtles the rates from the rescue orgs. are concerning also consider what was the purpose of the surveys . Then there are the hidden deaths. True in Qld coastal waters boat strike account for way more turtles, dugongs etc.
We should address all issue AS WELL. But as I also pointed out this topic was about bags. The other issues are going to be tougher.

I am also concerned about polluting (excessive) packaging including bottles (belly's contribution).
I made the point earlier there appears to be Four basic impediments to doing the sensible thing.

Commercial interests fiercely oppose bottle returns in exist in SA
Likewise with the excessive packaging industries including manufacturers, ad agencies etc.
Laziness, lack of motivation by the public to adopt the required number of solutions.
the inertia in generating support from the spoilt convenience crazy public.
NB I didn't/don't want to hijack this topic nor do I want to over emphasise turtles my intention was to point out that there simply isn't a one (painless) magic bullet solution. Clearly it will take a mass of hard fought separate actions.

BTW I am a humanist not a greenie. We need the animals/plants to support humanity.You do the figuring.

Why for instance when I buy aspirin are they only available as individually wrapped packages?

Well, sadly, a lot of this has to do with consumer theft. You see, many shoppers think it is their given right to take anything that is easy to steal, why, because they can.

It's also one of the reasons why you can't go to the hardware and buy one or two screws in many cases.

Hygiene plays another part but I think this is often a 'smoke screen' as the real problem again, is 'theft'.

Sure theft is a problem but in many cases it is not the primary reason for what I regard as excessive packaging. My aspirin example is a case in point. And even where theft or health is an issue the packaging is often far more than is necessary to combat those problems. Sometimes I suspect that it would be more cost effective to accept the losses through theft than packaging to avoid it (eg screws). I suspect that the distributors in many cases no longer make it possible for retailers to buy certain products in bulk.

Kulu, I agree with much of what you say.

Another issue is that most consumers would expect to buy one item for around 10% of the cost of say ten, give or take. Now while that may seem fine, it takes just as much time and effort to sell one, as it does ten. Just imagine the amount of plastic required if your asprin were packed in singles, remember, we have to many sicko's out there so selling them 'loose' is no longer possible. There is also the liabillity whereby there are a number of people out there just looking for an oportunity to sue for anything.

Now back to your asprin.

Would you be happy with someone placing their hands into a large vessel and grabbing out an asprin or two?

Would you also be satisfied that the large, easily accessable vessel was correctly labeled?

Unfortunately, like it or not, we live in a different world today and, in many cases this new world, or more so the effects it has on us all, has been driven by lawyers seeking out every oportunity to fleece some multi national of a few bucks.

Another quick point. I am not supossed to place meat in anything other than a 'new' plastic 'food approved' carry bag. Why? Because I can't guarantee that the bag you provide has not been contaiminated and it will always be the retailers that is seen to be at fault.

I don't know how we will every overcome this one.
I don't like it any more than you do.

Since we’re on the subject of unnecessary things, I’d like to nominate
--one of the most unnecessary inventions, ever-- the leaf blower.

Okay , there may be exceptional cases, where i) the user has a bad back and cannot pull a rake, or ii) if you were deleafing historic stonework, where it might be needed . But, otherwise, why on earth would you need a noisy, smoke-emitting leaf blower, to do a task which anyone, but a wimp, could do with a broom or rake?

And,we might be a lot better off too, if more people took up push-mowers & ditched their motor-mower

Horus

I used to ridicule the leaf blower much - until last summer.

My suburb was under threat; while I was hosing down the house, my neighbour was making quick work of removing leaves from his roof and around the perimeter of his home in very little time at all with his leaf blower. Even though we all regularly clear our gutters and roofs, living in a forested area means leaf litter all year round and during a hot summer there was more leaf litter than usual - eucalypts shed more leaves during drought.

While, under normal circumstances, a rake and broom are more effective and very environmentally positive, I have to confess I envied my neighbour when we were under threat of fire.

Bronwyn,
Must have missed yous reply sorry
I don't use Wheelie bin liners. I wash the bins with a floor scourer (sponge thingy)in water which goes on the garden. Then I use a 1-1 water/bleach(2.5% Milton baby bottle solution is 1%) spray bottle coating all contact surfaces close the lid and let it stand rinsing it off or not depending on time available. Dilution rates are then ridiculously low.
Same for the inside bin (stainless steel)

PS I use the same solution to de-slime the shower floor. the waiting time is a couple of hours then I scrub...yep I would have made a good wife for some woman..
Ecologically it beats the expensive and far more toxic cornucopia of concoctions sold in the super markets and in homes. Not to mention the waste of resources.

:-) Am I a good boy now pretty please with home grown native bee honey on top?

Fractelle,

What happened to those leaves your neighbour blew? What happens to the leaves you sweep I wonder?

Rehctub,

Indeed public liability fears can be a factor in prompting businesses to use more wrapping. The question of liability is worthy of a serious discussion in its own right but if retailers were prohibited from providing bags then they could not logically be held responsible for the consequences.

I would also suggest that our present society has evolved some ridiculously dysfunctional norms or regulations such as this phobia about liability and safety. Its frightening, perplexing and very hard to combat. I wish I knew how to tackle the problem.

As to your comment:- "Would you be happy with someone placing their hands into a large vessel and grabbing out an aspirin or two?" No I would not be particularly happy - the packaging in my view should be both minimal and appropriate.

Kulu
Indeed public liability fears can be a factor in prompting businesses to use more wrapping. The question of liability is worthy of a serious discussion in its own right but if retailers were prohibited from providing bags then they could not logically be held responsible for the consequences.
Gee I wish it were that simple. You see, one part of a goverment department usually makes a descision then another impliments it, then a third polices it.

Now if someone gets ill from what is thought to be contaimated meats. First I get a visit from safe food. If it leads to prosorcusion then I have to pay a lawyer to defend me and, even if I win I still loose as I have been away from my core income sourse. See, we don't get paid unless we sell something. People running small businesses don't get paid to be there, so any disruption causes financial pain.

Now I don't want to make this into a 'employer V employee' thread. So please don't anyone go down this road.

Troops,
If my failing memory it anything to go by I have recollection it has something to do with anti tampering.i.e. Some bozo with a grudge or an axe to grind poisoning pills.

Also the push through packet stops wee fingers from "mummy lollies"
as I've heard them called by one short thinking mum to her child....the key word was 'lollies'.

The question is 'is there a better way?' I give up! is there?
Tamper proof bottles are a problem for people with arthritis etc.
then would a ten pill bottle be any cheaper or not cause problem in the environment resources, polution, energy etc?

Fractelle,

I have issues not with leaf blowers they're just tools. What bothers me are the dingbats at the other end. The same as chainsaws.
Lawn moving guys who use them to blow the messy driveways clean of leaves, grass clippings ( weed seeds) into drains that run into a local creek then complain to the council for all the weeds choking what was a lovely brook 30 years ago.

How were they used to save houses in a bush fire situation like the one recently in OUTER melb I'm curious? As I understand it it all depends on what leaves and where they went and fire of the ferocity a few leaves weren't the problem. Gutters and flying empers the wind etc.

Examinater,

1. At the very least provide alternative, friendly packaging for those who seek it.
2. If we are on about aspirins and arthritics specifically then perhaps a plastic or cardboard container with an easy to remove/replace fitted lid plus retain that adult proof - sorry child proof screw top container for non arthritic people with children who don't have a "safe" place to store their aspirins. I don't know what the answer is for arthritics with children.
3. I would think that the difference in cost between 10 aspirins and 100 would be minimal so just have a larger minimum quantity. The problem with this is that everyone along the supplier chain would make less profit even if the consumer and the environment would benefit - that in my view is the main driving force behind it all.

Rehctub,

You have a problem but if you already have three government officials hounding you you should be able to take on a fourth, the Dept.of Appropriate Packaging perhaps?

Asprin and such has to be tamper proof, idiots and criminals have opened them here and in other countrys.
Killing people even in attempts to black mail.
How we handle waste may be the answer.
But the subject is plastic bags, why not look to our past?
We once had large paper bags ,ours had string handles Americas did not you put your hands under them to carry.
They got wet if you put some things in them but seem less a threat than plastic.
My plastic bags go under the lawn mower, it takes care, and are added to the compost.
Paper could be used in the same way, some however will not make a personal effort to do the right thing.

Belly,
Welcome back !
“3 weeks and 3 days…My server is government sponsored satellite… it took ten minutes once the service man came but 24 days! to get him here”
And this is on the watch of the team that is going to give us a home-grown national broadband network–poor fellow us!

[OK that’s enough stirring for today—back to the topic]

I don’t want sound like a luddite, BUT, re: putting plastic bags under the lawn mower & its kissing cousin, pulverising tree clippings.At first glance they seem like sound moves –but any such processes are likely to produce both pollution from burnt fuel and add a whole lot of micro-particles to the air .

If you’re selling the mulch, like some councils do, it may show as –economically worthwhile – but from a wider, community cost-benefit perspective, what’s the bottom line –does anyone have any info on this– might not it be better just to allow such waste to its own decay processes?

What a lot of excellent POV's, where to start?

Agreed about leaf blowers and like - it is the tool at the other end that is of concern.

Kulu - I was describing an emergency situation where we were attempting to minimise ember attack. Normally I bag leaves for council mulching and composting.

Packaging - "mummy lollies" how utterly appalling and irresponsible to describe medication as such to a child. Well, I am sure we can devise ways to reduce the amount of packaging and keep products safe and secure from contamination and prying fingers.

Anyone watch the "New Inventors"? If you want to feel hope for the human race, then just tune into this ABC show. We are almost as clever as the orangutan, whose strategic plan for escape from the Adelaide zoo, should make us rethink our supposed place at the top of the evolutionary tree.

The truth is out there. Still.

Repair-reuse-refill-recycle-?

I think that is how it goes. It more than just dealing with waste. It's also about conserving resources.

Kulu,
Absolutely I'm not saying I agree only pointing out the reasoning it all came about. Remember laws like this are there to protect the stupid/ignorant/inept from themselves. And before the social Darwinists get wound up. Please don't waste our time. The reason there isn't a better answer is because of profit and limited mindsets of the executives always focusing on EBIT for this month quarter and of course their bonus's

Fractelle
As a bush carer you would be amazed if I told you how many candidates for the Darwin awards candidates (some supposedly average people there are.
Hot Windy day a group of subcontractors in a tip lit a fire to burn some rubbish....Yup the Adelaide hills disaster.
So it won't be a surprise to tell you of the man who couldn't wait half an hour for the tip to open he was missing the fishing. So what do you think he did? Left the bag by the tip gates? nope he took it fishing and scattered it in the bay "cos it's recyclable it'll decompose quicker in the sea" he said what was the litter the packing for his new plasma including plastic bags. He was tittered bwisted when the water police made him retrieve all he could then fined him.
End of story.....no no this citizen wrote to the paper claiming a discount because he was a pensioner and a war vet! He tried to go to court claiming he was unfairly treated for the same reasons. Yer right.
.