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The Forum > General Discussion > so why does the truth often stop a thread

so why does the truth often stop a thread

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Why is it that when an argument is shown to be unreasonable that the thread ends.

Why don't the people who put up the argument actually continue with the thread, even if it means they accept that there is a better way or that what is happening is often wrong, or, can be improved on.

Why do these posters just abondon the thread?

Two cases came to mind just recently.

1. A person earning $37K and raising 5 kids. I pointed out that they should be happy for others to provide the funding for their kids and to stop whinging. No response!

2. I have put up what I consider strong grounds for the watering down of pay roll tax, again, no reply.

Why bother making a comment if you don't, or won't axcept the answer or defend your position.

Anyone?
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 2 May 2009 3:21:56 PM
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Dear rehctub,

This is just going to be a stab in the dark,
because I'm not familiar with the two
examples you've given. So, I can only speak
in a general context.

At a guess, - most people usually leave a thread
when they feel that the discussion has run its
course. And they are actually all "argued out."
They've stated their views - and will only be
repeating them. Or in some cases their views have
been distorted by other posters - and they feel
nothing constructive will be achieved by staying on,
and arguing.

Or, finally, the discussion has stooped to public
insults, and they don't want to be a part of that.

As another poster said, on another thread, and I quote:

"I really don't see the need to publicly insult someone
when you don't agree with them. That seems very immature
to me. If you see factual errors, correct them, but
why get personal?"

It is unfortunate, but some posters do see discussion Forums
as "battle-grounds," in which they always have to be right.
In that case, when you come across
someone like that, your wisest move would be to simply leave
the discussion.

I hope this answers your question.

Cheers.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 May 2009 7:55:40 PM
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"Why bother making a comment if you don't, or won't axcept the answer or defend your position.

Anyone?"

Couldn't leave you just hanging. Obviously happens to you a lot.

I think silence is probably a good indication of agreement without actually kneeling down and kissing the hem of your robe.

I would say your part in the conversation is to accept that you at least helped educating another human, by pointing out how wrong their thinking is, and move on to your next victim.

Or... (and I remind you I only came here for the first time today so have no idea how you debate, educate or argue) they couldn't be bothered with your approach and just kind of wandered off ignoring you...?
Posted by Jewely, Saturday, 2 May 2009 8:00:53 PM
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cont'd

I forgot there is one other category that I've
just remembered. A thread that at first appears
as a serious discussion topic until from various
responses you begin to suspect that it is in actual
fact a "vilification rant," against a religion, race,
or group. That the topic is not really one that has
been put up for a discussion - but for vilification
of the chosen topic.

After several attempts at trying to engage in a discusssion
on the topic, with little success, people do tend to leave.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 May 2009 8:05:44 PM
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Well, the two examples you've given are rehctub's opinions, not accepted "truths", so the thread title is innacurate.

It's not quite clear what you mean. If someone doesn't respond to your statements, maybe they either agree, or can't be bothered getting tangled up in potentially circular argument of one person's unprovable personal opinion versus another's.

Contributing to online debate is entertaining, and arguably healthy for society, but I'm not going to take hours out of my real life to try and convince someone that eggplant is the single most revolting non-food in existence [which it is] if they simply don't agree.
Posted by Sancho, Saturday, 2 May 2009 9:00:55 PM
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Sancho
I disagree entirely. Eggplant is yummy depending on how you cook it.

I expect a reply from you within 5 minutes otherwise you are just not willing to hear the truth.
Posted by pelican, Saturday, 2 May 2009 10:52:45 PM
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Ah Sancho - finally a subject about which we disagree.

I can't imagine life without ratatouille.

But you're right - you'll never change that :)
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 2 May 2009 10:57:19 PM
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Too right Sancho. All those self-hating pro-eggplanters make me sick. Pretty soon they'll be insisting we have to eat eggplant whether we like it or not. It is just diet correctness gone mad. Truth? Don't talk to me about truth...
Posted by Johnj, Saturday, 2 May 2009 11:19:58 PM
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On a serious note. As Foxy said some discussions come to a natural end.

Once all ideas and opinions have been thrashed out and everyone realises that we may as well be speaking into the ether what is the point?

This is particularly so in religious discussions where really our beliefs are so entrenched that all we are doing is airing the same old tired arguments on both sides until the debates become defensive with real or imagined insults. You end up explaining more about what you did not intend to imply, rather than getting on with the debate itself.

Everyone thinks their viewpoint is the truth so arguing about who is telling or hearing the truth is superfluous.

Sometimes there comes a point where the debate has to end realising that there is no further purpose in continuing the discussion.
Posted by pelican, Saturday, 2 May 2009 11:21:50 PM
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I hope you all open your egg plant at the stem end or you will be dealt with Swiftly!
Posted by csteele, Sunday, 3 May 2009 1:04:43 AM
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Foxy
I think it is fair to say that I don't insult people on a personal level. I may provide a little sarcasum, but being a butcher for 30 odd years one thing you get is a quick whit but I do hold back most times.

I also annalise things very quickly and can respond immediately with answers in most cases and perhaps this effects some posters. Just a pitty I can't spell real well, but I recon I proved that spelling is over rated, essecially considering the response I got when I pointed that out to a fellow poster one time.

I think silence is probably a good indication of agreement without actually kneeling down and kissing the hem of your robe.

And that's a shame. I always acknowledge when I am proven to be wrong, but you may have a point.

I would say your part in the conversation is to accept that you at least helped educating another human, by pointing out how wrong their thinking is, and move on to your next victim.

I can see your point however I don't see fellow posters as victims. That is not my nature.

Sanco, please explain?
Well, the two examples you've given are rehctub's opinions, not accepted "truths", so the thread title is innacurate.

Thank you all for your comments. Not one insult, now isn't that great to see.

Well, almost.... I expect a reply from you within 5 minutes otherwise you are just not willing to hear the truth.

Some people just can't help themselves now can they!

Cheers
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 3 May 2009 7:22:00 AM
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Yes, when people can't be bothered to respond to a thread anymore, you win. That's the way it always has been on the blogonets. Your argument then becomes the "truth", and you get to feel all warm and fuzzy about being right, isn't that nice?
Posted by Bugsy, Sunday, 3 May 2009 8:05:11 AM
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Sry, can't resist.

rehctub:"being a butcher for 30 odd years one thing you get is a quick whit"

Surely you mean a quick whet?

As you were, everyone...
Posted by Antiseptic, Sunday, 3 May 2009 8:21:57 AM
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Eggplant!

Yecch!
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 3 May 2009 8:59:47 AM
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The Truth?
Eggplant IS NOT a food, it's a bland, tasteless carrier for real flavours, even my GOATS wouldn't eat it, and THAT'S saying something!

I suspect threads die as a natural part of their existence, all that can be said by those interested has been, and/or there's too much negativity happening, so they die.
Posted by Maximillion, Sunday, 3 May 2009 9:22:45 AM
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Rehctub, I think many OLOers already have an entrenched position on topics and only refer us to URL’s that support their perspective. The point is well made that some of us feel threatened by something factual that disturbs that perspective. The “what would it take to change your mind” thread some weeks ago was a good example.

The problem occurs when you have already “nailed you colors to the mast” because you have to defend them.

The hurling of URL’s is the best example of defending those entrenched perspectives, the debates often end for all the reasons stated by other posters but I suspect mostly because the refusal by some to look at other sources of information which are contrary to ones perspective, because they might be a direct threat to the defense of your “colors”. The result is often trashing that contrary source, finding another source that refutes it and playing the player not the ball. The result is often frustration and sometimes abuse.

If it helps, humans have evolved three basic defense mechanisms, Head, Heart and Body.

“Head” types defend with facts, figures and statistics. Hard nosed pragmatists, take no hostages. Definitely not conflict averse.

“Heart” types feel the emotion in a topic; facts and figures cause them great pain and are often not accepted because of the emotion they generate, their defense mechanism is known as “emotional blackmail”.

“Body” types, the intuitors (bless them, I married one). They see both sides of the debate, show great empathy and tend to be conflict averse. Their defense is to create harmony.

It is not hard to pick some of the personality types on display in OLO or why some of us behave the way we do.

To your question “so why does the truth often stop a thread?” Truth is more to do with its “effect” on us individually and our “reaction” to it. Hence, something that I see as a blinding glimpse of the obvious will cause someone else great pain.

Forgive us; we’re just “wired” that way
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 3 May 2009 9:51:30 AM
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Apologies rechtub if my comment caused offense.

I do think sometimes people see offense where none was intended but I can see how a flippant attempt at humour may have been seen as sarcastic in this case.

Your comment to me on the PRT discussion about not responding because of a failure to come up with a counter-argument could also be interpreted as insulting - but hey we are all human - and I chose not to take it as such. We we are all not focussed on OLO 24/7 so we may not always respond within a particular time frame.

Take on board some of the comments here on your thread as to why sometimes people choose to move on to another discussion or think the debate has come to an end.
Posted by pelican, Sunday, 3 May 2009 10:25:21 AM
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Perhaps people are just not interested in the subject put up. I'm not interested in this one;I looked only because the title mislead me into believing that it was about 'the TRUTH often stopping a thread'.

But, your post has nothing to do with truth.

Perhaps if you thought more carefully about what you wanted to say, and labelled your thoughts accordingly, you might get more takers.
Posted by Leigh, Sunday, 3 May 2009 10:44:43 AM
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Dear rehctub,

My comments were not directed at you personally.

I was speaking in general terms.

I find you to be a very tolerant, understanding,
and interesting poster, whose opinions I respect.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 3 May 2009 11:18:54 AM
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""I would say your part in the conversation is to accept that you at least helped educating another human, by pointing out how wrong their thinking is, and move on to your next victim.""
"I can see your point however I don't see fellow posters as victims. That is not my nature."

I thought you were a butcher?

Actually I must admit when someone does explain to me where I was going wrong with an argument or a debate I find it facinating and enjoy letting them know that I appreciated the imput. Or I get stoppy when I'm sure I am right and can't get someone else to see just how right I am.

But never quiet. That is not in my nature. Well maybe in real life where sulking can be an excellant technique but makes no sense online unless you post a message letting others know you are sulking. Catch 22.
Posted by Jewely, Sunday, 3 May 2009 12:55:57 PM
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Pelican, Rehctub
You're a sick puppy next you'll be telling me that Cho Coes (spelling?) are edible so are sheep eyes but why bother..... see what They mean rehctub.
5! children! Struth!
I could send you my 3 then you'd have 8. and I'll be freeeeeee
Your wealth etc are irrelivant to the topic if your comments are genuine and not insulting. Some question simply mean that they would involve hours trying to discuss the topic meaningfully at the end of which all that would have happend would be hours spent
Posted by examinator, Sunday, 3 May 2009 6:04:46 PM
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Sorry
Your post limit for this article has already been reached. You may only post to a particular thread 4 times in any given 24 hour window. You may post again in 13 hours.

It should read:

You were having a debate
You thoughts on this discussion have been suspended until morning. Go sleep on it and after this period of time you would have forgotten what you were saying anyway.
Posted by Jewely, Sunday, 3 May 2009 10:26:12 PM
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Jewely

Excellent point that about post limitations, after 24 hours a particular point or response can lose its importance. Especially if responding to a heckler.

Unlike a live conversation it is not necessarily agreement that stops a thread. Usually I have said all I want to say on the subject, sometimes I will make myself clear that I have stopped contributions, sometimes not. Silence does not always mean agreement it can mean a wish to avoid further escalating argument. I always remain confident that the discerning reader can make their own minds up as to who has made a genuine effort to construct a debate and who hasn't.

To egg-plant haters, you do realise that aubergines have to be cooked? Preferably with olive oil and garlic, after roasting the skin off over a gas flame, then mashed onto fresh crusty bread. Yum
Posted by Fractelle, Monday, 4 May 2009 11:29:17 AM
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Pelican, Rehctub
You're a sick puppy next you'll be telling me that Cho Coes (spelling?) are edible so are sheep eyes but why bother..... see what They mean rehctub.
5! children! Struth!
I could send you my 3 then you'd have 8. and I'll be freeeeeee
Your wealth etc are irrelivant to the topic if your comments are genuine and not insulting.

Well, I'm lost! What the heck are you on about examinator, care to explain?
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 4 May 2009 1:58:13 PM
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I have always had the view that it is best to say nothing unless you hold your view strongly. It is lots of times better to let somebody be wrong in your eyes, than to try to convince them you are right. An old Scottish saying comes to mind: a man convinced against his will, remaineth unconvinced still. Another is that is it better to be thought a fool than speak up and remove all doubt.

The tongue, or in this medium the typing finger, can be a very deadly weapon, and many a person has wished an email sent in haste could be recalled. My English teacher said writing should be interesting and didactic. It should entertain and educate, and I dont believe a person should have to apologise if their view is rebutted. They just take their marbles and go home, or refuse to play anymore.

Theres nothing wrong with that, and its always great to hear dissenting views, and have them robustly and accurately expressed. On you OLO.

PS I am not rapt in eggplant, but some people can make them tasty. Same with some ideas.
Posted by Peter the Believer, Monday, 4 May 2009 4:35:08 PM
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There is no such thing as the truth,-there is only opinion. People stop posting on a thread because they want to! It isn't personal.
____________________________

Eggplant/Potato's: my favourite vegetables, because they are both sponges for flavours.

Eggplant slices brushed with v.o/o and then grilled,-then layered with a rich tomato sauce and Parmesan-finishing with Parmesan and breadcrumbs-bake til golden brown...Luverly!!

A good Baba Ganoush! Yum!
Posted by Ginx, Monday, 4 May 2009 4:44:24 PM
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Pete:“I have always had the view that it is best to say nothing unless you hold your view strongly. It is lots of times better to let somebody be wrong in your eyes, than to try to convince them you are right. An old Scottish saying comes to mind: a man convinced against his will, remaineth unconvinced still. Another is that is it better to be thought a fool than speak up and remove all doubt.”

What I got from that saying would be to convince him without menace. More along the lines of; “you catch more bees with honey”? I think people are more likely to think one a fool as you walk away.

What happened to sayings like… Give me firm ground on which to stand and I will move the Earth.

Fractelle:”Excellent point that about post limitations, after 24 hours a particular point or response can lose its importance. Especially if responding to a heckler.”

Hey don’t tell anyone but that is the first time that I was trying to make a point here… I fluked the rest.

“I always remain confident that the discerning reader can make their own minds up as to who has made a genuine effort to construct a debate and who hasn't.”

Or you got banned, or your phone got cut off. Being of a more hysterical nature I have often decided a user died and that’s why I got no response.
Posted by Jewely, Monday, 4 May 2009 6:19:51 PM
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There is no such thing as the truth,-there is only opinion. People stop posting on a thread because they want to! It isn't personal.

Well, I don't actually agree with you on this one ginx.

Opinions are where one has an opinion on how best to correct something, or, how an event may have occurred as the facts are un-certain.

Truth is when the facts are clear beyond doubt and people reffer to something that actually happened, these are not opinions, it is just that the other poster is un-aware of what actually happend.

As for egg plant, try using it in thin slices as a replacement for pasts when making lasagna.
Now this is just my opinion!
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 5 May 2009 6:41:21 AM
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rehctub,

It would have helped (well helped me anyway) if you had posted links to the discussions in question.

As for why the discussion peters out, there seems to be lots of reasons. Some stop for the reason you proposed, some stop because they see no point in repeating themselves, some stop because they decide to agree to disagree. There are in fact so many reasons I have given up trying to guess why any particular discussion does eventually stop.

I personally try to stop only when I am reasonably sure they other person understands what I have said. Occasionally that requires I say something 2 or 3 times in different ways because what I thought was obvious turned out to be anything but obvious to someone with a different background. And occasionally when forced to do this, I discover the other person's view point actually better thought out than mine. The very act of trying understand the other persons point of view so I can word my reply appropriately is usually what leads to that realisation.

But I have to confess, sometimes I just loose interest. It seems rude to just walk away at that point, but I do.
Posted by rstuart, Tuesday, 5 May 2009 1:41:03 PM
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Here is the first one

Will the cash splashes lift the economy? :
See my comment page 1 No reply from the writter.

I will try to find the second.

My point is, why make a statement and then not respond.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 5 May 2009 8:29:44 PM
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rehctub,
The first part was a playful dig at egg plant to demonstrate that opinion swapping the post before mine is largly pointless. Sorry if it was a bit obscure.
I was also commenting on stating your family situation it gave me the impression you were explaining something that didn't need explaining.I wondered why and thought to state the obvious
The 5 children and giving you mine was acknowledging you have more patience with that sort of thing than I. Again it was intended to demonstrate that personal differences make a big difference to how hard one works at a task either raising children or discussions.
I hope that helps sorry if I confused.
PS I i still dislike Egg plant maybe its the texture.
Posted by examinator, Tuesday, 5 May 2009 9:56:46 PM
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"Why is it that when an argument is shown to be unreasonable that the thread ends?"

I would have thought the weight of evidence points in the opposite direction. Most threads don't end when the argument is shown to be unreasonable. Posters devise all sorts of irrelevant stratagems to stretch it out.
Posted by Spikey, Wednesday, 6 May 2009 10:30:29 AM
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