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The Forum > General Discussion > Capitalism a Ponzi scheme?

Capitalism a Ponzi scheme?

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RobP

I agree we should let companies like Pacific Dunlop go offshore and I agree we should encourage diversification and all that. But how? We can't do it by allowing governments to pick and chose who or what industries they wish to back - they cannot be relied on to pick correctly (without undue influence being exerted by lobbyist with money to spare) or in the best interests of the country.

I think we need to bring back some forms of import tariff protection or other protective barriers rather than providing selective subsidies to various industries. I don't belief we achieved the wealth we did by having an unfettered free market. I believe we achieved it because we were prepared to exploit to the max our non renewable resources and conduct a sort of agricultural mining that has left much of our arable land pretty much degraded. ie we did it by consuming our natural capital.

Fractelle

I don't think writing to your MP or multi-page petitions or voting for someone in a major party who you believe to have the same values as yourself works. Been there, done that...mind you on environmental issues. Look at the continued logging of old growth forests which I understand 85% of Australians were against. Look at Peter Garrett former head of the ACF (Australian Conservation Foundation).

As Dmitry Orlov a former Russian American writer notes "In the Soviet Union they forbid you from expressing dissenting opinions, in the West they simply ignore you."

Of course the exception might be if you petition about a local issue in a marginal seat around about election time. Then of course your chances of getting at least a promise out of the government are good
Posted by kulu, Monday, 2 March 2009 7:19:02 PM
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kulu,

I think restoring trade barriers is definitely the wrong way to go. I noticed an article by Peter Hartcher today in the SMH, that pointed out some of the positives emerging from the global financial turmoil. In it, he mentioned the recent trade deal Australia reached with ASEAN. This, to me, is exactly the sort the thing we should be trying to do - creating new economic links with other parts of the world which are mutually beneficial.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/things-are-looking-up-in-this-topsyturvy-world-20090302-8mcf.html

Another thing we can do is to start exporting our expertise to the rest of the world (read: whoever we can get a comprehensive trade deal with). I actually think the deal with ASEAN is likely to be a good one for us for a number of reasons: the Asians are industrious; they are on the cusp of an upswing and thus hungry to better themselves; they are weaker than us which means we won't get to hold the rotten end of the stick; and it gives Australia more trade flexibility (ie more export destinations to smooth out our economic fortunes). It's also good for them because they will have better opportunities than they have had in the past.

I believe we need to go forward - cautiously, if necessary - and make new inroads economically, not go backwards.
Posted by RobP, Tuesday, 3 March 2009 2:22:18 PM
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Greed will always be with us, and it will always lead us to trouble like that we find ourselves in now.
Houses have been treated as an asset , a way of increasing wealth, not a home.
Greed drove the price rises and in my view not shortage of homes.
America sold too many homes to people who could not pay for them, mostly they remain empty.
If a shortage exists surely they would not be empty.
Free trade, not barriers is our best plan, if we lock products out our trading partners will too.
Not sure that Asian nations are on the up right now, just maybe they are going to go down before returning to growth.
We, all of us should take a breath, look back 18 months, compare that to last nights propping up of AIG.
Consider what happens if they fall?
our Ponzi scheme seems the best life boat we have but it increasingly is showing holes we never expected.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 3 March 2009 4:49:40 PM
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RobP and Belly

The global financial collapse isn't the only crisis we're dealing with. We also have to combat global warming and climate change and somehow deal with the reality of peak oil.

Trading produce long distances all over the globe is ultimately unsustainable. The fuel used and the carbon emitted to transport products, that in many cases can be grown and produced locally, is both unnecessarily wasteful and environmentally damaging.

It's easy to argue that globalized trade is the answer to our economic woes, It might be, but it's coming at a huge cost and one that will catch up with us all, sooner rather than later.

Some trade with closer Asian countries is possibly a reasonable option, but things like importing fruit from Europe and the US for example, purely so we can have year round access, is something that needs to be reconsidered.

I agree, no-one wants to go backwards, but in the long run that's exactly where the free trade agenda is taking us.
Posted by Bronwyn, Tuesday, 3 March 2009 5:12:24 PM
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*The fuel used and the carbon emitted to transport products, that in many cases can be grown and produced locally, is both unnecessarily wasteful and environmentally damaging. *

All is sometimes not what it seems to be, Bronwyn. I once read a
report which showed that it required less energy to grow a leg
of lamb in New Zealand and ship it to Britain, then it did to
produce it in Britain. Reason being that those British animals
are intensively farmed and need protection from snow etc, wheras
NZ sheep just eat pasture.

Sea freight anyhow, is an extremely efficient way of moving cargo,
that is why rates are so low.

Next, it is virtually impossible to prioritise what is important
or less important. People fly on holidays, is that really required?
So what gets priority, fruit or holidays?

Expensive energy, which is where we are heading, will soon show
up high energy systems and make those products accordingly more
expensive, so reducing demand.

No point worrying too much about global warming whilst nobody
worries about an extra 80 million humans a year being added to
the global population.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 3 March 2009 6:26:08 PM
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Bronwyn

"I agree, no-one wants to go backwards, but in the long run that's exactly where the free trade agenda is taking us."

There's no reason why Australia can't in future be part of a research effort to perfect technologies like carbon capture & storage, renewable energy and making industries less emissions-intensive and export those as part of a free-trade package. What it will probably take is an acid rain scare in a populated part of the world to make authorities realise that this kind of research must be done and then carried through to an application.

So, in other words, why can't free trade go hand in hand with scientifically-based mitigation strategies and applications? Aren't we smart enough to walk and chew gum at the same time?
Posted by RobP, Tuesday, 3 March 2009 8:32:22 PM
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