Foxy, Examinator & RobP

Agree with all your points.

Question is how do we change the culture of hierarchy to a more lateral one?

Are there signs of change now? Such as Obama placing limits on renumeration for CEO's in businesses requesting bail-outs?

If a society can be judged by how well (or not) it treats its most vulnerable members, can a organisation be judged by how it treats its lowest paid? Is this still hierarchical? Or acknowledgment that without the coal-face workers what does constitute a truly competitive business - the salaries of its executives?

Wouldn't it be interesting if employees really were seen as valuable resources and competition extended to keeping employees and CEO's were judged on low employee turnover and high moral?

I don't believe that the problem is capitalism, the problem is
human nature. Some people want more and more. Just look out
at how many rush out to buy lottery tickets.

Under capitalism its quite possible to decide that one has
enough, is content with the world etc. That does not seem
to be common human nature.

Think about it Belly. Remember when you were not so happy
about losing 100 Grand on your house value, as you could
have used the money to buy a 4wd and go fishing around
Australia? Yet you seem quite content with your life.

Capitalism cannot be blamed for that, human nature can.

Fractelle,

"Question is how do we change the culture of hierarchy to a more lateral one?"

That's the $64 million question. I know Peter Shergold, the former head of the Australian Public Service, was talking about making the bureaucracy less hierarchical and more team-based. What actually came out of it I don't know.

I think the true solution is to move to what has been called the flat-earth model. It's where opportunity for all starts to replace vested and sectional interests and where individuals are empowered to make decisions that are in their best interests. However, this is a long and slow process and would probably take a century or more to play out if it started now. But every so often something happens that triggers more empowerment in/for people. One thing I can think of is the internet. Instead of people necessarily going to the doctor for a health diagnosis, they can instead diagnose themselves. This may save them money for mild complaints. It will also start changing the dynamics of society and the way it operates.

Are you sure you are talking about capitalism Belly? I am more concerned with the struggle between feudalism and egalitarianism. The property market is a good example of this struggle, with government severely restricting the rights of landholders to develop their land, then opaquely using those rights for the financial gain of themselves and their friends. This sort of abuse gets exposed fairly regularly, and has resulted in dismissals of councils.

I think that regulation has a place, but an abuse of regulation has created the housing affordability crisis. It is the antithesis of capitalism.

Yabby

"I don't believe that the problem is capitalism, the problem is
human nature. Some people want more and more. Just look out
at how many rush out to buy lottery tickets."

Why do people want more and more though, Yabby? You say human nature. I say it's because we're all fed the line every day that we need this or that, or we should update to this or try that new brand or product or whatever. I don't think we'd be wanting more and more at all, if it weren't for the aggressive advertising that Capitalism depends on.

I'm not arguing for the overthrow of Capitalism, but there is something fundamentally wrong with a system that needs to promote disatisfaction in order to perpetuate itself. Climate change is forcing us to realise that we can't keep growing forever, as pointed out by Foxy. There's something flawed about a system that requires endless consumption to provide employment for all. Not that Capitalism even pretends to try and provide jobs for everyone anymore.

I agree, Belly, the deregulated, free market Capitalism of the last few decades is indeed a Ponzi Scheme. It doesn't have to be that way though. The Capitalism of the post war years, for example, was much more measured and egalitarian than the free-for-all of today. There mightn't have been the vast increases in wealth we've seen in recent times, but the increases that were there were more evenly spread. And life satisfaction and social cohesion was arguably much greater than it is today as a result.

Fractelle, RobP
I see your point I guess it's the term that bother me. In any large society there has to be some form of hierarchy somebody has to act as spokesperson make the discission, given that a nation wide poll on every issue would be impractical.
There has to be a leader(s).
A society that had no hierarchy at all would be one that couldn’t function either administratively or societally. People are different in abilities, skills and drives.

RobP you are right in that we don’t have adequate control mechanisms to ensure equality in its many forms and the inhibitors are unchecked power and its abuses. As a consequence we also lack fraternity and liberty. (viva la guillotine?)

The problem is indeed human nature Just in case your history is lacking equality, fraternity, liberty were the slogan during and after the French revolution. I think they had the right goals but not ability to manage l human nature (collective human propensity not the group….then again…have you heard their early stuff? Viva la guillotine now? :-) ). The problem with all political structures is that they never able to adequately unavoidable corruption of human intervention. (guillotine… now?)
The trick is to set up parameters to manage it. As it stands today the system not only permits the more base side of our nature it encourages it.
The extreme at one end want no control and likewise the other extreme wants too much both would/have been disastrous.
Personally I favour regulations that direct and manage to specifically avoid either side gaining supremacy particularly in your power abusive ‘hierarchical’ sense.
And no la guillotine either. :-(