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The Forum > General Discussion > Perhaps God does exist

Perhaps God does exist

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Is this the birth of a new religion?

A long time ago in South Africa I saw a group of university students protesting the death penalty. Being against the death penalty myself I had no quarrel with their stance. But what struck me was that they were all wearing Che Guevara T-shirts.

I am getting on in years. I am so old that I remember reading about Che before he became a cult figure. Che was Castro's executioner and a thuggish one at that.

You can read a bit about the real Che here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2461399.ece

Protesting against the death penalty clad in T-shirts that bore the image of an executioner seemed to me to be beyond irony. I tried to engage the protesting students in a dialogue. It was hopeless. The students flat out refused to believe me. Any evidence I produced about Che's role as an executioner was dismissed as a "smear" of the "imperialist media."

Yet today even the "imperialist media" seem to have taken Che Guevara to heart. His entry in the Britannica is silent on his years as Castro's executioner.

See: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/248399/Che-Guevara

Even that apotheosis of "imperialist media," Time Magazine, has whitewashed Che. See:

http://www.time.com/time/time100/heroes/profile/guevara01.html

Yet it was mainly in the pages of Time Magazine that I read about Che's executions between 1959 and 1961!

Is this how religions start? If mythmakers can transform a thuggish, sadistic and rather dim witted brute like Che into a revered legend in just four decades what can we really know about Jesus or Muhammad?

Sometimes I do believe in God. Only a "divine comedian" could come up with the Che story.

God exists. He is the Great Comic in the Sky.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Monday, 9 February 2009 12:01:18 PM
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those shirts are not rare, here in Australia the head of a left wing union has one on very often.
I just can not believe a new religion has anything to do with the shirt or the man who bought it on.
however I get a laugh at that shirt and its wearer often.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 9 February 2009 4:44:19 PM
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Gods are made, even without their consent.

Consider one very human priest-king claimant of the House of David, teacher to Gentiles, under the Herods, within in First Century Rome. In the Fourth Century, he was promoted to divinity.

Even in the 21st Century, it still remains challenging for history-history to gain rightful ascendancy over religous-history.
Posted by Oliver, Monday, 9 February 2009 8:08:19 PM
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SteveLmeyer! Lost your child-hood? O(liver give me steak and pie. LOL.
Of course god exist! The 9 teen- century says so, and so on! But you think this is compatible with the 20>

I have only read the first four lines of this thread.

EVO
Posted by EVO2, Monday, 9 February 2009 11:38:36 PM
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You don't have to believe in myths unless you want to..those youth protesting and wearing CG t shirts did not know the truth about the man..but they did believe in protesting against capital punishment...

Had they worn Donald Duck t-shirts I don't think it would have been as aesthetically profound for them...they were young, needed their own symbols.. And the youth of today are no different, indeed political beliefs and symbols have been made redundant by brand materialism that purports to be apolitical - but its not.
Posted by Rainier, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 12:37:02 AM
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Rainer. There are loose-rs and there are winners in the race for evaluations rules, and with natures callings, how can anyone disagree.

Excepted for man, all other living things hates us, and that's a fact.

3 billion or the way of the dinosaurs!

It is our choice.

EVO
Posted by EVO2, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 12:56:01 AM
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Rainier. Sorry for spelling your name incorrectly.

EVO
Posted by EVO2, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 1:05:29 AM
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Rainier,

The protesting students were not merely wearing Che T-shirts; they refused to take on board the truth about their hero.

Why? What mae them so unwilling to see Che for what he was?

But the real point is the way in which this murderer has somehow become an icon of - well what exactly? Che T-shirts and other Che appurtenances are now commonplace.

What are we to make of Che's Britannica entry? Failing to mention his role as Castro's executioner is a bit like writing a potted biography of Stalin and failing to mention the gulag.

If a gangster like Che can be transformed into a figure of reverence in four short decades what does that tell us about other cult figures such as Muhammad or Jesus?

Was Muhammad the Che of his time?

Did Jesus actually exist?
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 6:48:33 AM
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"Did Jesus actually exist?"

Posted by stevenlmeyer.

Did Pontius Pilate?.
Posted by StG, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 7:25:22 AM
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I was wondering where this thread was heading. The lead-in seemed so... contrived, somehow.

>>Is this the birth of a new religion? A long time ago in South Africa I saw a group of university students... all wearing Che Guevara T-shirts.<<

As non-sequiturs go, that has to be up there with the best.

New? nope, it was a "long time ago".

Religion? From a T-shirt? who's kidding whom here? If that were the case, we'd have religions based on Jimmy Hendrix, Jim Morrison and a host of other iconic faces.

So what exactly is the agenda here, stevenlmeyer?

>>If a gangster like Che can be transformed into a figure of reverence in four short decades what does that tell us about other cult figures such as Muhammad or Jesus? Was Muhammad the Che of his time?<<

Ah, back on that old hobbyhorse, are we?

You must really miss Boaz.

You're starting to channel him. Right down to his "start a thread that I can twist later" tactics.

Some advice. Don't go there. You'll only end up feeling dirty.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 7:42:07 AM
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You only have to see have people look at Obama now to get your answer. The myth of him being the Saviour of the world has been very evident from many posters. Funny though the fastest growing religion seems to be the earth worshipers who promote self righteousness and place the environment above human life. They are even deceitful or blind enough to believe that 'science' validates their myths. Just look at the disgusting way the Greens are promoting their religion through the bushfire tragedies.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 9:10:13 AM
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Perhaps God does exist?

Always has.

Whether it was a pagan 'God' like
thunder, lightning, ancestors, totems,
or deities like - Pharoah, Caesar,
Alexander, Jesus Christ, Mohammad, et cetera.
Mankind has always found something to believe in
other then themselves.

Then theres' also -
men like Che, Mao, Castro, Tito, even Lenin, Stalin,
Hitler, Churchill, John F. Kennedy, and more recently
Barack Obama, all had/have their own 'worshippers.'

To each his own...
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 10:58:40 AM
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"Just look at the disgusting way the Greens are promoting their religion through the bushfire tragedies."

I have noticed how the tragedy has been leapt on by opportunists among 'em. Their argument is that we have damaged the environment in ways which made it easier for the arsonist's fire to spread.

However I have also noticed the comments about how their inroads into logging meant that the fire was worse than it could have been if the logging equipment was in reasonable proximity. I don't think they would like that observation.
Posted by mjpb, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 11:29:13 AM
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stevenlmeyer wrote: "If mythmakers can transform a thuggish, sadistic and rather dim witted brute like Che into a revered legend in just four decades what can we really know about Jesus or Muhammad?"

I agree that Che was a thuggish, sadistic brute. However, he was highly intelligent. If one piles on the adjectives one should ensure their accuracy. On the occasion of 9/11 it was called a cowardly attack. Dastardly it was. However, it was as brave as attacks that our forces make.

If Che had been dim witted he never would have attracted the following he had. I make a point of this since I care neither for Che nor for the forces he represented.

However, to combat them one must be aware of what we fight against.
Posted by david f, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 12:26:35 PM
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It's not specifically what Guevera did but what he represents to some people that has made him an iconic figure.

The image represents a struggle against authority, not justification of the means used to achieve it.

Dig deep enough and you'll find all heroes have feet of clay.

Ghandi was also a mysoginistic wife-beater and Mandela a convicted terrorist, but that doesn't diminish their inspirational contribution to the last century.

Conversely Stalin was a mass murderer but he also dragged a backward, poverty-ridden autocracy up to becoming a world superpower within a generation, despite the loss of 20 million lives and widespread devastation in a single war.

It's all just symbols and typical of the pop-culture religion that guides our lives.
Posted by wobbles, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 3:02:39 PM
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davidf and wobbles made great comments and Pericles voiced my puzzlement much better than I could.

As wobbles pointed out, we do like our heroes or villains to be, and expect them to be, completely good or completely bad. Real simple.
Posted by Anansi, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 6:00:26 PM
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I also wanted to express my approval for Pericles comment.
Posted by mjpb, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 10:26:04 AM
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Hello Foxy,

Good succinct post. Some post-Russell philosophers would say the theist gods "subsist" in societies, having a cultural existence, rather than a real existence. Else put, gods exist as ideas, because ideas, in a sense, exist.

Pericles,

I was taken in by the Discussion Title too, expecting, well... not what said.

Albeit, a certain Jewish medicant, after a few centuries in the Middle Eastern sausage machine, comes-out the other end, a god.

In the Thirty-Third Century, Pericles, Foxy, Oliver ... who knows:

Maybe, we three,become a divine trinity; wherein, we are only real trinity. The earlier Eygptian, Babylonian and Christian trinities are ignored*. And billions of people believe this assertion.

Say OLO says. we are god (trinity). Or, to be emphatic, here, today, in OLO, it is asserted Peracles, Foxy and Oliver are god; three substances(ousia)of the one and only god.

Justification?

We are necessarily god, and OLO, is infallible Holy Writ, because said infallible OLO and this post, which is infallible, says so.

Yet,if an infallible post says we are god; do we have the choice not to be god?

Herein, how we are, as god, "determined" by scripture? Have we the Free Will to not be god? We can't, while scripture remains infallible.
If we don't have Free Will can we be god? Yet, if OLO becomes fallible, allowing us Free Will, it is fair to question the statements OLO contains.

O.

* Just as tritarian, undifferentiated Christianity ignores its trinity templates.
Posted by Oliver, Friday, 13 February 2009 11:03:24 AM
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Hi,
God is truth, No one can deny it. Everything is not possible in the hands of human being. He have to depend on various opportunity which god provides him time to time.

Austin

http://stockmarket.bizoppjunction.com
Posted by Austin45, Saturday, 14 February 2009 5:29:59 PM
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"god" is a human concept,and our perception of the universe and it's perceived creator does not do it justice.Man is just a poor imitation of his flawed,imaginary creator.
God will only ever exist in our imaginations,so long as we believe in our own BS.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 15 February 2009 8:37:19 PM
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I suspect that the real Che was a fairly mortal man who can be found somewhere in between the revolutionary, kindly, idealistic hero of The Motorcycle Diaries and the evil villain of Machover's book. Certainly not the Jesus-like martyr who adorns so many t-shirts around the world. The article's careful use of language (as well as the quotation marks surrounding words we are meant to question) angered me at first, but then I realised that the article has a useful purpose. Even if it doesn't convince the world that Guevara was a thug, it will help to take the shine off his image and, perhaps, create in him a more realistic figure.
Posted by Otokonoko, Monday, 16 February 2009 12:08:43 AM
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Washington was a revolutionary, a traitor, an opportunist, a mediocre general and a slave owner. As if that is not enough, he wanted Anglo-Americans to cross the Appellations, to arrest Indian lands under conquest, again British directives. Yet, his picture is on currency and many Americans no dout revere him. Guess it depends on who writes the history and the final outcome of events.

p.s. Of course, Che was bad. Real bad
Posted by Oliver, Monday, 16 February 2009 11:28:30 AM
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