Trade barriers have been swept away by free trade agreements so the economies of countries are more closely connected. In case of an economic downturn such as we are in now the effects of economic problems in one country such as the subprime mortgage crisis and other woes in the US have had worldwide effects.

It seems to me that trade barriers insulate a country to some degree from economic problems in another country. The less Australia is dependent on exports the less the market for our goods drying up affects us. The fewer foreign loans Australia makes the less we have to worry about entities in other countries repaying. Putting tariffs on imported manufactured products would give Australian industries more of a chance to develop. Imported goods require energy for transport and pollute the oceans and the air by exhaust in transport. We can control environmental and labour standards for items produced in Australia but not for imported goods. Capital can easily move across international borders but not labour so Australia workers have to compete with Chinese. Should we reconsider free trade and place restrictions on international investments and borrowings?

Dear David F

depends on what 'kind' of trade barriers.

The current British situation where racist econimics are being practiced by the government (indirectly) and contracting companies directly.. are abhorrent and the govermnent seems to have decided:

-the noise and bluster from the Unions demanding British workers for British jobs is something which will blow over.

Welllll.. who knows... some of those workers might feel that they have been abandoned by their government...having nothing more to lose and ..well.. who knows what they might do.. but here is an interesting article!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinated_people

Gordon Brown.. in an interview, morphed into the epitomy of "Yes Minister" it was classic. He just declared the workers position 'indefensible' then woffled on about how they are doing so much for Britain! utter rubbish!

Contracting companies offer lower prices because they employ foreign labor..Italian in this case at lower rates.

If this is 'the future' then no amount of moral high ground will save millions of workers in the West from losing their jobs to foreign workers on the basis of the EU and it's laws over-riding British LAW!

hmmmm one step closer to:

"so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark,"

I also find it intrigueing..that the Brussells EU parliament has a symbol of a woman on a bull.. "The Rape of Europa" from Greek Mythology. The Parliament building also is build to resemble the unfinished Tower of Babel!

Doubt me? check it out!

Trade Barriers...hmmm if the removal of them is based on specific negitiations which will advance ONE segment of our economy (e.g. mining) at the expense of another....or many others.. (Manufacturing) then.. BUILD THAT WALL!

*Putting tariffs on imported manufactured products would give Australian industries more of a chance to develop*

Err, we tried all that back in the 50s, 60s, 70s. The result was
very expensive and shoddy consumer goods, with the rich in the
Melbourne establishment, milking their little monopolies for all
they were worth. Consumers were the big losers.

Australia with its 20 million people, is too small to make
everything. Best we do what we are good at and where we have
a comparative advantage.

Unless of course you are happy to pay 8000$ for your Aussie
made computer and 100$ for your Aussie made shirt.

If you want our standard of living to drop dramatically, just
being back tariffs.

This notion that its about those Chinese with cheap labour,
is a nonsense. I gather that the world's leading exporter of
manufactured goods is in fact Germany. Not exactly cheap labour.

Dear Yabby,

A manufacturing capability is not built overnight. I see no reason that Australia could not build up a capability to rival Germany's if it were given time. Tariffs give that time.

With free trade there is no chance.

David, Australian industry had time, all they did was pocket the
profits and raise costs for efficient exporters, making them
less efficient.

What it comes down to, is what are Australians good at? That
really comes down to individual companies. So you can see that
individual companies are doing well in Australia.

We make large ferries for instance, as I guess there were some
entrepreneurs operating in this field. We are good at making
some mining equipment, some agriculture equipment, we export
those.

Fact is we don't even have the labour to work in industries where
we have a comparative advantage, like meat processing. They rely
on migrants and 457 workers, Aussies have it too cushy and don't
want the jobs.

In WA, we have had a shortage of nurses, doctors, teachers, policemen,
the army and navy are short, builders, the list is endless.

Aussies seemingly don't want to do crappy jobs like work on
production lines anymore. That is the reality, certainly
in many parts of the country.

Dear Yabby,

With automated factories necessitating skilled engineers and designers there is little need for anyone to do a crappy job like working on an assembly line. If we developed the capability we would be ahead of the Germans whose industrial plant depends on some degree to that type of labour. The assembly line can be made obsolete.

*With automated factories necessitating skilled engineers and designers there is little need for anyone to do a crappy job like working on an assembly line*

There you have it David. The meat industry is screaming for
machines to automate their labour that nobody wants to do.

The bit of machinery we do buy comes largely from NZ. There is
no reason Australian companies can't develop products and make
them right here. For that you don't need tariff protection,
just intelligent entrepreneurs prepared to have a go.

Dear Yabby,

You have argued well. For Australia to compete successfully with Germany we need a change in social attitudes, a different emphasis in educational outcomes and government encouragement for the first two changes. The fact is that we're not going to get it. I agree with you.

*For Australia to compete successfully with Germany we need a change in social attitudes,*

David, we sure do lol. Methinks Aussies by and large are getting it
so easy, they don't even need to try.

Let me give you an example, which has nothing at all to to with
tariffs or cheap labour. Over the last 10 years or so I've been
busy breeding a new kind of meat sheep, that sheds its wool and needs
no shearing. As we breed the wool off these animals, we still shear
some, in depends on how the genes fall and we have to focus on a number of attributes, not just their self shedding.

This stuff would be ideal for insulation etc, turning into wool
batts. Yet there is nobody in WA who will wash it, too many
EPA problems with the grease etc it seems. So woolbatts for
insulation from WA, include wool imported from Britain of all
places, to insulate West Australian homes!

Is it really beyond West Australian industry to wash a bit of
wool?

Frankly this sort of stuff just makes me shake my head. There
are still opportunities everywhere in Australia, but it seems
to me that most people have it so good, they don't need to bother
to have a look.

Davidf
Interesting topic.

“And now for something completely different” a devils advocate view.
To accept Yabby’s views one must first accept his premises and I’m not sure I do.
Yabby is also arguing from a position of self interest rather than objectivity and as such is using perceptions as facts.

1st ‘people don’t want production line work’
Try telling that the car and associated industries in Victoria, NSW and SA.
Or to the meat workers in abattoirs in Townsville Qld where 20% of the Cities working population worked in or in surrounding industries.
Or the ex cannery workers in places like Shepparton where 10% worked in canneries and the suppling farms now have problems surviving.
Fact. More people are employed in manufacturing etc than farming. In reality people in the developed world don’t want to work for a pittance a comparative early industrial situation (3rd world situation.)

2nd Yabby is in denial that manufacturing is fleeing to 3rd world countries solely because labour and conditions (regulations) are cheaper and slacker i.e. More profit.

3rd One has to accept Status Quo and that in the light of current events strikes me as a myopic choice at best. AGW, WW financial crisis, Pollution, Desertification/salting of Arable land, concentration of wealth, even primary industry being multi national corporatised. Family farms have decreased exponentially in recent years. One can and many do that we need a new world financial paradigm. This one is broken.

4th One must accept that capitalism as it is practiced is the only way…it simply isn’t or does it mean that if we dispense with current capitalism that Communism or Socialism (both equally flawed constructs) and pre industrial life styles are the only alternatives.

Capitalism was conceived as a beneficial system prior to:
Limited liability Companies
Floating exchange
Derivatives, debt swaps
Rating agencies
*mass*production on the scale it is now
Consumerism
Gobalism
All the above and more have been created to facilitate what… Capital and those who control it. But at what cost to the people national independence and self sufficiency?
Enough to start with.

*1st ‘people don’t want production line work’*

Examinator, in that case why haven't they been applying
for the jobs that are available in the meat industry and
other industries? In WA it has frankly been a disaster
to hire people. A bit of a recession is just what we
need, to bring back some sense into things, as they were
getting out of hand.

*Fact. More people are employed in manufacturing etc than farming.*

Err, so what? Primary industry creates the raw material for
secondary industries to work with. Primary industry in
Australia is generally highly competitive, when seen in a
global context. Not so for Australian manufacturing.

*2nd Yabby is in denial that manufacturing is fleeing to 3rd world countries solely because labour and conditions (regulations) are cheaper and slacker i.e. More profit.*

I am in denial of nothing. If goods can be made cheaper, given some
competition, they can also be sold cheaper to consumers. Consumers
benefit! Fact is that in today's system, the cost of making goods
is often far less then getting them from the wharf to the consumer.

I read somewhere that the average pair of shoes from China cost
around 5US$. But those high rents at Westfield shopping centres and
those many sales staff standing around, twiddling their thumbs,
have to be paid for. Marketing today often costs far more then
manufacture.

*Family farms have decreased exponentially in recent years.*

Sure they have. Australian agriculture has to be globally competitive
to survive, so agriculture has been in a cost/price squeeze for
decades. That loaf of bread that you buy for 4$, might contain
20c of wheat for instance. Everyone stakes their claim, farmers
are left with the crumbs that are left.

*Capital and those who control it. But at what cost to the people national independence and self sufficiency?*

So who owns those large corporations? Workers of course, through
their super funds. Take a look at the top 20 shareholders of ASX
listed companies of some size.

Yabby,
What happens in WA is not necessarily reflected in the rest of Aus and vice versa.
My point was that people *do* want production line work. Why not in WA? Up until recently the mining industry offered more $’s. Capitalism at work.
As for Drs and nurses you need to look at previous government’s spending priorities (uni places and affordability.) then you need to consider the AMA and the medical college’s restrictive supply policies to maintain wealth levels etc. (Drs. unions in effect) no real competition there.
Don’t forget that not every one has the smarts or the opportunity to be good Drs. etc.
Who wants to work for a pittance on some remote farm when in cities there are better paid jobs? More dysfunction in the system.

Your super fund bit is not quite accurate they are bit players in multi nationals.
Your point about bread proves my point about who makes most of the profit, the mega-corps Coles, Woollies etc. Ask who is supplying their capital most of it comes from the net lending countries.

As for the $5 shoes. What price the labour and conditions? The big winners are the wholesalers and retailers their mark-ups (profits) are extortionate. And who owns the big shoe companies like Nike? Capital investors of which super fund are small beer.

Part of the financial problem today is because net lending countries like China have flooded the west with capital causing the credit bubble.

My argument was that your assertions were based on
-maintaining status quo et al
-that propping up current structures are our only options.
And that the current system has a sound basis it doesn’t. Capitalism as it is has been ad hoc development. To the point whereby it is effectively dysfunctional.
There are many other options.

Status Quo asserts than Gobalism and rampant consumerism (magic pudding principal) is the only way to go from any number of perspectives this is both untrue and unwise.

There is other options.

*My point was that people *do* want production line work. *

So you claim. Yet meatworks in just about every state have to
hire foreigners on 457 visas, as not enough Aussies are
interested. Queensland, South Australia, NSW.

Now tell me how Australian consumers will benefit, if say
you insist that we make Australian toasters here. High
wages here, plus monopoly supply by limited companies, will
simply make Australian toasters incredibly expensive, workers
being the losers, for they are consumers too.

*Your super fund bit is not quite accurate they are bit players in multi nationals.*

Not really. Workers have over a trillion in super, mostly in the
share market. The ASX is worth about the same. Foreign super funds
have a stake too.

*who makes most of the profit, the mega-corps Coles, Woollies etc.*

Nope, the problem is very high costs all the way. Coles is basically
owned by 400'000 mum and dad investors, with super funds dominating
above them. Goyder does not blink without checking with the super
funds. Spend 100$ at Coles, profit is around 2$, costs around 32$.
All that data is available in their annual report. I know, I am
one of those 400'000 lol.

*Capital investors of which super fund are small beer.*

Not so, today you have American, European, Japanese, Australian
super funds. They dominate the market.

*Part of the financial problem today is because net lending countries like China have flooded the west with capital causing the credit bubble.*

That is correct. China might find that all those US$ she wants to
hoard, will be inflated away over time and worth not much in the
longer term. That is why China is now changing tack and wants to
buy resources, like Rio Tinto etc.

*My argument was that your assertions were based on*

What you think that I think and what I actually think,
might be quite different.

My point on this thread is that tariff barriers don't
solve anything and consumers are the losers. Given that
most people want a higher standard of living and not a lower
one. .

I think that every country should be allowed to balance imports with exports otherwise the weaker countries go into too much debt.Both here and the US we have borrowed to pay for consumerables with no real productivity to back it up.

We also need diversity in our economy and this give us something to fall back on in tough times such as these.The service industries collapse very quickly while those industries that produce basic necessities will not.

Examinator ,
Of course people want jobs, especially in the regional areas.

As for Drs and Nurse Shortage we mainly have State Governments and the National Party to blame in those areas.

For the last thirty years or more we have engaged most of our public Drs through a company called Global in is Salt Lake City.

Speaking of the old boys National Club, it was amusing watching their great leader Warren Truss today complaining in Parliament that 81 million dollars went to recipience to people living overseas.

It was then exposed that ‘ he’ Truss was the one who originally arranged originally.

Yabby
I agree a bit of hard times might be just what we need. Tell you what if your claim had any substance before it`s certainly about to change in the next few years.

People will be fighting for those jobs at meat works that you have old always claimed were impossible to fill.
You see Examinator our old buddy here has blamed Aboriginals, Drugs, Grog, +just plain dole bludgers in the past for lack of available staff to operate plants:

What was the other one Yabby`` oh that’s right mental illness.:)
In fact none of the above were the main reason for the shortage he speaks of.

Space considered I would like to discuss that later.

It has never sense not to do our own value adding.
After all why do you think these people want to buy our raw material – JOBS .

They buy our jobs to value add and sell back to us at a profit.

So we need to take a closer look at why there is such massive erosion of value adding in Australian employment opportunities given to overseas countries.

Continued

The countries importing Australian
jobs away from our regional and city
areas are as I said only really interested
In capturing the jobs, employment, value
adding at their end:

They engage in 'strategic measures'
in the form of tariff escalation and
Non tariff barriers, to encourage it.

This enables them to do what we should
should be doing here in Australia.
They open manufacturing and processing
Industries, based on imports of raw materials.



Kerry Packer for just as one example was
If nothing else a good example of
This as a savvy biz man.

He had such power with
the media and a fortune he got away with it.

Kerry purchased abattoirs across Australia.
He even made regular trips to the
towns and did the smartest thing of 'all'

. He formed bonds with farmers at
grass root levels knowing their loyalty.
He gained their confidence and by doing so
* he assured his supply of stock.*

Not just Kerry but
A few select others.

(Those who had pots of money really)

Country towns benefited as people came to town chasing a job home and better life style for their kids. Many settle down and even took out mortgages to buy a house work and raise their family.

Some of those same towns right across Australia are now ghost towns.

It turned out these tall poppies found an even better way to make a quid. So they closed the plants putting thousands of people out of work and unable to send their kids to school or pay their mortgages.

You see the owners had IMO ‘Pre Planned ‘to establish supply ‘ first’ and then ‘divert’ into an easier living.
They decided it was easier to make their billions through’ trade dollars.’

I think what *really hurt some of the country people were the fact after the Abattoirs were closed they were then written off as tax losses.

A bitter pill indeed for many.
So what continues to drive the trade?
Why are we STILL giving our jobs to overseas?
Who’s behind this madness?

TO Be Continued

david f examinator,

So why bother opening a thread asking for comments. Its pretty clear you dont really want to know how trade barriers effect Australia and why they were put in place.

Pretty rude.

u2 Yabby