Pericles wrote:

"Five succinct reasons why religion will never lead any environmental movement.

- religion is actually about the individual
- rewards are in heaven, not here
- it's all in the divine plan anyway
- religions fight for their own survival, not the planet's
- and then there's armageddon, anyway"

Dear Pericles,

You have used the word religion when the statement you made applies only to Christianity and not completely even to Christianity.

Both Islam and Judaism do not think salvation is possible for an individual who remains apart from his or her community. Christianity has the social gospel which mandates involvement with the community. Many Christians accept that view.

The religions that fight for their survival are the missionary religions. Christianity and Islam. Other religions are prepared to accept those of different faiths. Zoroastrianism does not even accept converts although they are discussing a change in policy.

The concept of an afterlife is primarily a concern of Christianity and Islam.

The concept of a final battle or armageddon is as far as I know only limited to Christianity.

Interesting points there Pericles. (And David F)

- religion is actually about the individual

Partly, it's about the individual as part of the Body of Christ. One Body, many parts.

- rewards are in heaven, not here.

Nope.. it is about heaven, but here, we have the presense of the future in our hearts.. and there is something called 'redemption and lift'.. as our lives are renewed, so also are our circumstances..

- it's all in the divine plan anyway.

Does not negate our responsibility to be good stewards of the world.

- religions fight for their own survival, not the planet's

Quite a few myths there. "Fight"? meaning with weapons? Islam commands it, Christianity denounces it. (speaking only of the faith documents/founders here)

- and then there's armageddon, anyway"

Indeed it is.... and it's a lookin purrrrrdy close at the moment. But I and those I know are very interested in sustainable life.

David.. please look again about "The last hour will not come unless the Muslims kill the Jews"...THAT... is referring to an armageddon.

It does exist in Islam.. including the idea of the return of Christ. But Islams returning Christ will kill the Jews and break the cross.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/end_of_times_battles_in_islam.htm

The End of Times Battles in Islam:

The end of times battles will occur between the Muslims and the people of Gog and Magog who will consist of the bad Jews (Zionists today as we call them), and the Polytheists from the Trinitarian Christians who worship Jesus and the Holy Spirit beside Allah Almighty, and the idol worshipers from the Hindus and the Far Eastern Orientals.

Notice who GOG and MAGOG are ? It's u and me mate. (oops.. maybe not u as ur not a zionist right?)

These words from that same article are most instructive about Islam.

"As long as the Muslims are cowards and fear to rise up against their corrupted governments, Allah Almighty will never help them to regain their wealth and independence."

Notice the emphasis on:

-FIGHTING. (against governments)
-WEALTH.
-INDEPENDANCE.

Yep.. I can see "one world government" happening realllly easy Brian Holden.

Not entirely sure we are on the same wavelength davidf, although I definitely see where you are coming from.

Religion is about individuals in the sense that selection of a religion is an entirely personal choice, as is rejection of same. But I freely accept that I had in mind the theist religions when I endorsed wobbles' approach. It is a form of supreme arrogance, in my view, for anyone to consider that a deity has the slightest interest in the individual. In doing so, they resort to meaningless mumbo-jumbo...

>>...it's about the individual as part of the Body of Christ. One Body, many parts.<<

And are you sure about this?

>>The concept of an afterlife is primarily a concern of Christianity and Islam<<

Interesting. I thought the concept was almost a prerequisite.

david f,
My comments were actually directed at the major religions because they seem to be the ones making all the noises and trying to call the shots - socially and politically.

Reincarnation is another version of eternal life and may take many turns of the wheel while the other just fast-tracks you to your ultimate reward.

Eternal life must be prerequisite - otherwise there's no payoff and simply no point. Why be a member if there are no benefits?

It's the ultimate act of self-interest and borne out of personal fear. It imposes a phoney morality because one does the right thing, not for it's own sake, but for your own.

Notions of the "end times" have been with us for millennia -in many religions and cultures - and we are always "closer to them than than ever before" -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_times - and Apocalyptism has always been a popular cultural fascination, probably because it may be seen as a no-fault end to one's personal suffering.

It's like a "hurry, last chance to buy - don't be left out" sales pitch.

I could be selling Immortality Pills on the Internet and offering a money-back guarantee if they don't work.

I think the only belief systems compatible with sustainability are the primitive native ones who treat the earth as a living thing and believe everything in it to be sacred.

The contrast between Polycarp and runner is very interesting.

Polycarp supports the notion of sustainability and good stewardship of the Earth and reckons Christianity is right into it. But runner just seems to completely reject it, passing off leading environment-awareness advocates like Gore and Flannery as fruitloops, and the whole environment movement as being morally corrupt!

Runner, what do you think of Polly’s stance?

Polly, is your old buddy completely off the planet or does he have some credence?

Hi Ludwig.

I don't see Runner or my own position as being at odds at all.

Runner says:

"Any biblical believer or for that matter any one else with a little common sense can see that you will never clean up the environment unless the heart of man is cleansed."

I totally agree with this!

Then he says:

"As I have said before just look at some of the ridiculous predictions made by Mr Gore and Mr Flannery."

Well.. Luddy.. you should ask Runner exactly which ridiculous predictions he means..THEN you would have a basis for evaluating his statement.

I'm sure there are some very emotive and 'fruitloopy' things said by Flannery and Gore.. after all..they are in the "raise funds/get a name/build an empire" business are they not ? :)

Runners point is...that you can speak about environmental responsibility too that proverbial MOOOOOOOooooo happens..in the evening...but unless you fix the PROBLEM rather than the SYMPTOM...(human greed) you are wasting your time.

I totally concur.

Runner=Polycarp=Runner :)