Dogma ah yes runner tell me please in the very beginning
God how did he come about?
Who made God?

Belly,

When did I claim that science proves God? Obviously if I could answer your question I would be God. You again miss the simple fact that science can't explain our origins. I choose faith in the Creator because design is obvious. Others choose faith in evolution because they deny the obvious.

BUGSY and A.J.

I had a look at AJ's links.. and it speaks about probability.

The probability of generating this in successive random trials is (1/20)32 or 1 chance in 4.29 x 10^40

The 'this' is a Peptide.

The article says:

However, an analysis by Ekland suggests that in the sequence space of 220 nucleotide long RNA sequences, a staggering 2.5 x 10112 sequences are efficent ligases [12]. Not bad for a compound previously thought to be only structural. Going back to our primitive ocean of 1 x 1024 litres and assuming a nucleotide concentration of 1 x 10-7 M [23], then there are roughly 1 x 1049 potential nucleotide chains, so that a fair number of efficent RNA ligases (about 1 x 1034) could be produced in a year, let alone a million years.

hmmm to which I ask simply.."if they can do that in a year..why haven't they?"

I can take one point on board from the discussion.. i.e. that the probabilties might be reduced with 'simultaneous' rather than sequential tries.
Nevertheless.. it strikes me as absurdly unbelievable that such things could occur in the close proximity such that they can become more complex organisms.

There are so many "likely to be" "assumed"... "might just"'s in that discussion.. for me to have the slightest confidence that anything other than 'faith' is in operation behind the science.

Probabilities.... "Creationist" invention or.. Secular? Given that the Creationists base their work on Hoyles.. I hardly think it was a creationist invention.

Just a further PS...

Bugsy.. if as you say... scientists don't ask the question about probabilities.. let me offer this: (From AJ's links)

"For the hypercycle->protobiont transition, the probability here is dependent on theoretical concepts still being developed, and is unknown."

So.. with that degree of uncertainty and blurred vision.. how is it possible..and what is at work in the minds of those who with so little information are prepared to make a solemn declaration "God did not do it" :) ?

If you don't KNOW... don't SAY that you know.. just admit it.. "Science doesn't know"

Thus.. in contrast we have a firm statement "In the beginning...God created the heavens and the earth" and then.. to back this up,

we have the Lord Jesus who was raised from the dead... abundant eye witnesses.. ample testimony...

[16We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."[a] 18We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.] (2 Peter 1:16)

["that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.] (Paul, 1Cor 15:4)

In the 'compelling' stakes..I know which one is the more so.

Dear runner,

We have photographic evidence of the Big Bang back to 300,000 years ago*:

http://www.oarval.org/COBEen.htm

We have falsifiable mathematical evidence of the Big Bang back to Plank time. The tiniest instant after the BB.

On relative time scales, can you show us a photograph/image of Noah or tell us using quantitatively falisifiable methods, Adam's height and Eve's weight?

[From an earlier thread: You haven't concluded our discussion on Horsea 6:6, which states Yaweh does not want sacrifice, nor whether acting to bring out his own demise, with fore knowledge events, Jesus suicided against the tenents of his Jewish faith.]

Peace.

O.

p.s. Because the Universe expands faster than the speed-of-light.

Same old, same old.

>>It is NOT (Persistant Pericles) about "I don't get it....there fore God did it" kind of thing.. no no no... 'that' approach is based on us having the only source of information being our powers of observation in the natural world. Our faith in 'God did it' is based on what we understand to be Revealed Truth, and the persuasive evidence for the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.<<

So if I understand you correctly, scientists are at a disadvantage, because they are only able to use "powers of observation in the natural world."

You, on the other hand, are able to enlist the support of what you "understand to be Revealed Truth".

That's tilted the playing field a tad, don't you think?

It sounds more like the domain of J K Rowling.

On the one hand, a Muggle, with only his calculator and a dictionary.

On the other, a bunch of Hogwarts graduates, practising their Geminio curse.

Not exactly working from the same rulebook.