Oly,
“Then again, if humanity is made in God's image, and humans are primates…”
Tee-heeee, I love it, but I’m sure that when the creationists read it, they’ll go bananas!

Bugsy, dunno what Poly ate but all I know is that Poly didn’t have ribs for dinner ‘coz I’m still here.

Poly,
“Celivia's new name 'RIB' :) or should it be eye fillet? quite yummy and very tender!”
Yep, that sounds like me. Watch your wandering eye though; you wouldn’t want to have it poked it out!

OK… so you don’t know the answer to those questions.
But why do you force yourself to believe LITERALLY in whatever the Bible states?
Does it say somewhere in the Bible that you have to take everything literally?

BTW, I don’t agree with “the resurrection of Christ is a very well attested event of history”.
I mean, there isn’t even proper evidence that Jesus died at that time. I’ve never seen his death certificate, have you? Does it say somewhere in the Bible that qualified people took his pulse? Just because they thought he was dead, doesn’t mean he was. What did they know these days?
He could’ve been in a coma. Stacks of people were buried alive these days because were mistakenly thought to be dead.

Oliver,

Yes, I've read about that. Today's Creationists are modern versions of those who refused to look down Galileo’s telescope, as I'm sure you'd agree.

Poly,

<<Now.. we should only be examining probability within that one closed system.. our solar system.>>

If I understand you correctly, you're wanting to focus on the probabilities of the chemical process of abiogenesis. I'll address those probabilities again soon, but if you want to talk probabilities, we can't restrict them to the Solar system and have a level playing field.

<<...you would expect at least 'something' [in the Solar system] if the same probabilities exist...>>

Not really, because the other planets don't contain the right conditions for life. BUT...

The solar system, as a whole, provides the perfect conditions and balance for life on Earth. One example is Jupiter. Jupiter, with it's immense size and gravitational pull, acts as a protector of Earth by either drawing meteors and comets towards it, or by slinging them back out of the Solar system and away from Earth - It doesn't always of course, but it's helped sustain life on Earth.

Now, a Theist would argue that this is an example of "design", to which I would reply: "Wouldn't it just be easier for God to not make meteors and comets? Why would he make the entire universe look as though he did not need to exist?"

We can't restrict probabilities to the Solar system, because although the probabilities of our solar system being so perfect appear to be unimaginably small, those probabilities are greatly increased by the phenomenal amount of galaxies, stars and planets in our universe. In fact, given the amount of galaxies in our universe, it could well be argued that it is even more absurd to assume that we are the only intelligent life in the universe.

As for the probabilities of abiogenesis... Well, that's largely irrelevant because biochemistry is not a science of chance. There is no point in arguing about the chance of peptides forming, because we know the laws of nature allow it to happen quite freely and easily.

Continued...

...Continued

In fact, complex organic molecules can form in space and this has been observed.

The ocean floors were once covered in montmorillonite clay, so proteins would have been forming everywhere. Most would have failed to form into anything useful, but there quite easily would have been enough for the chances of primitive living cells to eventually form to become the single-celled bacteria we know today (See the abiogenesis video I posted a link to earlier).

If you want to use science to argue the existence of God, then asking where the laws of physics and nature come from would be a better start. But if I were you, I'd forget about trying to prove God's existence with science or mathematics, because at the rate we're going, we'll inevitably have the answers to where the laws of physics and nature come from in the not-too-distant future. As Bugsy alluded too earlier, to attempt to prove the existence of God with science or mathematics, is to ensure the demise of religion.

In regards to the evidence for Jesus... I believe Pericles has addressed this adequately many times. My favourite response of his on this topic was this one... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6887#103866. What CJ said about the story of Jesus being hearsay at best, was accurate too.

The New Testament is filled with borrowed mythology - mostly from Paganism. Particularly the story of Jesus. Early Christians demonised the Pagans because of this, and spread myths about them that Christians still believe today.

The fish symbol, the cross with a circle around the middle, the image of a man being crucified on a cross - they were all Pagan symbols.

Jesus bares too many similarities to other more ancient mythological religious figures for me to believe that he existed as Christians say he did...

Continued...

Horus:
Born of a virgin on December 25th. Three kings followed a star in the East to find him. He was a teacher at age 12 and was baptised at age 30. He had 12 disciples whom he travelled with as he performed miracles such as walking on water. Horus was known as The light, The Good Shepherd and The Lamb of God.

After being betrayed, he was Crucified, and resurrected three days later.

Attis:
Born of a virgin on December 25th, Crucified, and resurrected three days later.

Krishna:
Born of a virgin on December 25th, performed miracles with his disciples, was crucified and resurrected three days later.

Dionysus:
Born of a virgin on December 25th, performed miracles throughout his life, was crucified, then resurrected.

Mithra:
Born of a virgin on December 25th, performed miracles on his travels with 12 disciples, was crucified and resurrected three days later. He was also known as The Truth, The Light, The Alpha and Omega.

And this is just a small sample of them. There were many more, and they were all around before Jesus.

The reason they're all born on December 25th, is because this is around the Winter Solstice in the Northern Hemisphere and some of them are dead for 3 days because the Sun [Son] appears to stop for three days. The sun [Son] then starts to rise again and this became known as the "resurrection".

The star in the East is Sirius, and on December 25th, is aligned with three stars that were known to the ancients as “The Three Kings”. On December 25th, from the Northern Hemisphere, these four stars line-up and point directly to the Sun [Son] as it rises [representing birth] in the morning.

This type of mythology developed thousands of years before Christianity and spread throughout the cultures over hundreds of years.

It is only because of Constantine and the way history played-out that Jesus proved to be the enduring Son of God. Had it not been for Constantine, you could be here telling us that Mithra is the way to salvation.

ARRRGGGH.. *ka-boom* my head just exploded :) A combination of AJ's swirling chemicals and RIB's(Celivia's) poke in my wandering eye was too much for my biosystem....

AJ.. you started well but ended badly mate. You went off into lala land about the middle of your 2nd post (Pagan this, Mythical that, Horus etc)

But let's deal with the science first.

Your claim "Scientists have observed organic molecules in space"

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t478414h0851p0r0/

Let's use Methyl Formate as an example HC00CH3.

This suggests that the complex organic molecules appear from the very early stage of protostellar evolution.......
(So far so good...but wait.. there's more)

On the other hand, the complex organic molecules are not detected in a more evolved protostar, L1527. (woops)

They have also, as of last year, found 3 negatively charged molecules.
*wow*

But your point about:

"The solar system, as a whole, provides the perfect conditions and balance for life on Earth." hmmm no kidding....I didn't see that coming :)

Consider this. If LIFE is most conducive on earth..SUREly... unsuccessful life precursors would be observable on other planets nearby ? like... a Peptide or 3 ?

AJ...PERICLES?.. you quote him ? :) aaaarghh (3 aftershocks) the post you referred to simply contributed to better information about Greenleaf, but he was only partially correct. It also ignored Greenleafs respect by his secular peers.

What I'm on about in this thread is "plausability structure" not 'proving God'

As for horrifying Horus and his mythical crowd.. mate.. puh-lease read up on that.... both sides of the story.

Richard Price a noted Christ Myth-er says:

“Those of use who uphold any version of the controversial Christ Myth theory find ourselves immediately the object not just of criticism, but even of ridicule. And it causes us chagrin to be lumped together with certain writers with whom we share the Christ Myth butt little else…..

Check...your....sources please.
http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm

Acharya <-- Massey <-- questionable inferences and wild speculation.
Acharya also believes she has been visited by alien beings..many times :)
http://web.archive.org/web/20050217203851/www.tektonics.org/af/achy01.html

Celivia,

Just a little friendly comment with our OLO friends. No intention to leave God up a tree with your bananas.

Bugsy and Poly,

By way of extension to the comment via the Spiegelman link, please note, the transferred mutant progeny of the E. Coli & QB bactiophage, crossed 74 test tubes. Owing to (only initial) human intervention, the molecular evolutionary process produced the final mutant had a replication rate fifteen times that of the original RNA.

The original RNA was 4,500 nucleotides long and the turbo-charged mutate only 550! Supports Bugsy, methinks.

Poly and runner,

What I have being trying to demonstrate in recent posts is that Science is based on a process, that offers evidence, including falsifiable data, for analysis. What data underpin the Genesis Argument? What is being claimed is contrary to the Physical Sciences, Cultural Anthropology and History. To counter-balance, so many findings, one needs more that a “no comment” to support posits, please. One needs come to the table show that Genises a more conclusive (tentitive) posit.

Pleaes answer this question too: Was there mitochondrial DNA in Adam’s rib? If not, how did Eve receive it? If it was provided to Adam by God, should we pray, “Our Mother Who Art in Heaven? Or were sperm cells bigger in 4,004 BCE?

AJ,

I believe I first came across the Galileo telescope incident via Jacob Bronowski’s “Accent of Man” book/series. Brian Silver’s, similarly titled, “Accent of Science,” adds that seeing the moons around Jupiter was against Holy Writ, as the Christian Church asserted “there were only seven heavenly bodies”. The observed evidence wouldn't be there, even when seen. I guess, if one sees the the invisible, its not too greater stretch for the observable, not to be seen. Its complementary, but not complimentary,for me.

runner,

Will you look through the results of CERN Super Collider? You realize it is Galileo all over again. Do you not