Robert Kennedy once said,

"We will find neither national purpose nor
personal satisfaction in a mere continuation of...
an endless amassing of wordly goods.

We cannot measure national spirit by the
Dow Jones Average, nor national achievement
by the Gross National Product.

For the Gross National Product includes
air pollution, and ambulances to clear
our highways from carnage. It counts special
locks for our doors and jails for people who
break them. The Gross National Product
includes the destruction of redwoods and the
death of Lake Superior. It grows with the
production of napalm and mines and nuclear
warheads...It includes programs which glorify
violence to sell goods to our children.

And if the Gross National Product includes all this,
there is much it does not comprehend...
the health of our families, the quality of their
education, or the joy of their play. It is
indifferent to the decay of our factories and the
safety of our streets. It does not include the
beauty of our poetry, or the strength of our
marriages, the intelligence of our public debate ...

...The Gross National Product measures neither
our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor
our learning, neither our compassion nor our
devotion to our country.

It measures everything, in short, except that which makes
life worthwhile."

Those words were spoken a long time ago.

Do they have any meaning to us today?

THE FOUNDER

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Mat 6:19

THE FOLLOWER

I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13I can do everything through him who gives me strength (Phil 4:12)

Dear Polycarp,

Thank you for your input.

As Tor Hundloe points out in his book,
"From Buddha to Bono: seeking sustainability."

"What Robert Kennedy said in the
speech was what mainstream economists would come
to say in the future.
It has taken 50 years for the fatal fault of
traditional national accounts to sink in.
...We will never know if Robert Kennedy could
carry the day. A bullet ended his campaign
and his short life and the possibility of an
environmental revolution 50 years before it
finally came."

Tor Hundloe reminds us of the late 1960s song
about the destruction of countryside for
super highways and urban sprawl that became
a hit called, "Tar and Cement."

The song suggests that we should be careful
of leaving anything worthwhile, until it is
too late.

"The town I came from was quiet and small
We played in the meadows where the grass grew so tall
In summer the lilacs would grow everywhere
The laughter of children would float in the air

As I grew older I had to roam
Far from my family, far from my home
Into the city, where lives can be spent
Lost in the shadows of tar and cement

And every night I'd sit alone and learn
What loneliness meant
Up in my rented room above the world
of tar and cement

Each day I'd wake up and look at the sky
Think of the meadows where I used to lie
Then I'd remember all of that's gone
You're in the city, you'd better push on
Get what you came for, before it's too late
Get what you came for, the meadows can wait

Many years later, tired at last
I headed for home to look for my past
I looked for the meadows, there wasn't a trace
Six lanes of highway had taken their place
Where were the lilacs and all that they meant
Nothing but acres of tar and cement..."

I recently came back from visiting my home
town, a Sydney suburb, and it had changed
drastically, not for the better...

Thanks Foxy for reminding me of that song.

Even today it haunts the corridors of time with its warnings.
I'll see if I can listen to it again on the net.

I located the old Telstar instumental piece the other day... maybe Tar and Cement is there too somewhere.

This is a turning point in our history.We lack both good leaders and a clear vision.Most of us will probably be a lot poorer,but perhaps the pain will make us less hedonistic.

Beware the Bush Administration,even under McCain they will seek war as a distraction from home woes.The US dollar is underpinned by oil since this agreement was signed by the Saudis in the 70'S.All countries must hold $ US to buy oil.This is what props up their country.Iran wants to flood the market with oil and sell in Euros.This will destroy the value of the $ US.This is why Bush wants to invade Iran.The most dangerous country in the planet is Pakistan.Why do they not invade it?

Dear Gibo,

I'm glad the song pulled at your
heartstrings as well.

It really got to me and made me
think about so many things,
especially about where my priorities
should lie.

Take care.

Dear Arjay,

All I can do is hope that under a new
administration America will take a
different path to the one
the Bush Administration walked, and the
same one McCain and Palin
intend to walk if elected.

Fingers-crossed that Obama wins.

Just as Robert Kennedy's speech spoke to Foxy it spoke to me the song too.
And just as the message was needed then it is needed now.
It will be tomorrow too humanity has its good its bad its ugly it always will.
We in my view do have great leadership now, not just in Australia but soon in America.
The crisis has been a shock to us all,some talk even of forgetting the climate change actions.
Just think about that.
Forgetting the wellbeing of the planet in favor of money and lifestyle not shared by all.
In just one city in America we are told 80.000 are homeless, living on the street sleeping there.
Yet daily we see empty homes slowly falling apart?
We must not expect greed stop to driving many but Foxy has reminded us we do still produce great men.
Polycarp/David I am not sure humanity can leave it to your God.

Arjay,
How right you are. People have no idea how hard its going to be in a few years. Probably worse than the great after the war (much more).

Australia could not be in worse hands either. A totally inexperienced man acting as PM. You couldnt get a worse combinatation if you tried.

I dont know what costelo is doing but I hope the Government have had the brains to listen to him.

There will be some good things to come out of all this however despite the pain. People will learn to appreciate the simply things in life again and their neighbours.

Who knows they might even cut back on imagration-might'

Somehow I really dont think so with Rudd there. At least our Army will get a much needed lift.

Start growing your veggies Fruit and get a few Chickens is my advise to people.

It might come in helpful down the track when China ups the price of food and goods.

Or when the UN slam USA UK and Australia as war criminals and stop the ships by way of sanctions.

Still sink or swim you wouldnt have a better country to do it tough in.
Australia is still the best country in the world with some of the best people.

In which case we are he richest country on earth.

The gross distortions of values are represented by the following confliciting realities.

1/ We have now the longest sustained drought in living memory.

2/ Rudd plans to increase immigration intake to an all time high.

As I said to a friend at gym yesterday "Fine.. lot's of people but what the heck will we DRINK?"

About 12 yrs ago I had a strong sense of urgency of the need to become as self sufficient as possible. It was almost like a premonition of what we seem to be facing. Now..looking around from my perspective of a chunk of land which has the potential for 90% self sustainablity (food/water/Electricity/income) I feel vindicated.

There is another song "little boxes made of ticky tacky...and they all look the same" oooo yeah. Narre-Warren/Hallam.. arrgggggh.. lot's of people....but no soul.

Thanks to everyone for your hearfelt inputs.

As the author Tor Hundloe says,

"Today we desperately seek solutions
to climate change, water scarcity, pollution
and Third World poverty..."

However, as you all point out -
we do need to better understand
how we got into
this mess - and how to get out of it.

I agree with Belly,

I too am proud of our current Government.
Our country's leadership is strong, and it
is reacting well to the current economic
crisis. The opposition needs to be
Congratulated for supporting
the decisions which are being made.
This speaks well for its current leadership.

We can only hope that there will be a new
administration in the White House.
A well read and wise one.
One that will be interested in building
a just, and sustainable global human society.

I listened to Imran Khan being interviewed
on "Enough Rope" with Andrew Denton last night.
He made an interesting point, "Terrorism is an
idea," Khan said. "You can't fight an idea with
guns. In order to defeat terrorism, you must
win over the hearts and minds of the people involved."

Thanks Foxy each of us has a view but lets look at it this way.
Today we fear tomorrow and fail to understand we survived yesterdays challenges, some of those had to be as bad as todays fears surely?
Some flit from opinion to opinion abandoning all memory of the stand they took yesterday.
We are in fact well lead, and history will note it well.
And even if the world money crisis goes on to get much worse we may gain.
A system that includes accountability will surely be one outcome.
Obama is headed for the White house that just has to be good.

Dear Belly,

I fully agree with you.

A system that includes accountability
is the way to go.

And, with Obama in the Whitehouse,
it can only do good.

We have survived the challenges of the past,
but in order to go forward, let's hope that
we've learned something from them.

The human population continues to grow, it
will be nine billion plus by 2050 and the
middle class with its highly materialistic
lifestyle continues to grow.

We need to find a way for a better and
sustainable life for all humans, not just
for a well-off, middle-class community...

Foxy. "Where are we heading"! Does anyone hear the sounds of a flushing toilet? I heard a point of view concerning the next black president, that( red neck ) rumor has it, says if he makes office, he will be assassinated.

Will the white Americans except it, and how will the black Americans act when they feel they own the country? or have we all grown up now?

World population control is the number one priority.

EVO is very worried.

EVO

EVO it is true some one may kill Obama, or for that matter any leader or even celebrity in America.
Is it even near true Americans of African back ground will think they own America?
I prefer to look for a better outcome for America and the world, just maybe this is it.
Population growth is a concern, it should be to every human being on the earth.
However who is to control it?
China has laws to do so ,they do not always work.
India even trys to breed boys only but that will lead to true trouble one day.
In time what we call nature will control population, no man made rules can.
We do not know the direction we are heading, it may be one world controlled by one country.
Hundreds of years ago people had the same fears but we made it this far.

EVO

You have raised this before, much to your credit. Its seems to me nobody wishes to tackle the cold hard facts that we are outbreeding ourselves.
Of course we need to control birth rates but you see that steps on the toes of all the good do-ers and no poly is going to risk to loose votes.
Alike no Churches will risk to miss out on the polys hand outs that they get if they are good little girls and boys and remain silent

Where are we headed- Just where we put ourselves because every person think they have the right to have kids even if they live off welfare.

Instead of Australian Polys taking some action they pay thousands to increase he birth rate of mostlty unmaried girls to have more kids.

Then we sent aid to feed other countries. It doesnt do much to improve their conditions but it does give them just enough to continue to reproduce.

Its a bit like our coal going to China, then Australia to claim they want to lead the fight against global warming?

You are not alone in your concerns EVO but until the people stand up against this world being run by those with interests in their large pay packets and world trade kick backs we are buggered.

So the bottom line is- yes we are heading down the loo plug- your correct.

If you saw what some of us see everyday to our animals to keep this selfish mob going you might say we are heading where we deserve+ bring it on.

Belly, pale. Yes very well written and wise comments. But how will the governments implement this,( population control ) in a fair and commonsense way. First! the people of the world can sense a pressure and with understanding that, it explains to ones self, that not all,s well, and to coin a phrase, too much on,s one,s plate.( we are not designed to deal with this much ( world speed of growth ) So I have a few policies that I will put down here over the next couple of weeks.

We are at the limit, right across the board with everything we have consumed, and now its running away form us, and it would appear we are loosing control.
I will start with this one and we need to see the pro,s and con,s of it, from all sides of this debate to implement this idea to our governments.

1 One child per couple every five years. ( couple meaning all sexes to the family minded, singles as well )

Three billion! the number to hit. ( abortion and euthanasia, additional help )
The more people you have, the more opinions cry to make more confusion.
( ten rats in the box ) too the to hard box it goes= no solution.
Sure the people wont like it at first, but as society frees up,( population decreases )=( No more waiting plus no more differences between rich and poor ) etc, the more it will become clear, after the first ten years.

Any flaws so far?

EVO

Where are we heading?

Walk into any on-fire for Jesus christian church anywhere in the world and they will tell you... without a hestitation...John's Revelation.

But we dont have to worry about it if we have Him in our lives.
They will all smile and give you a big hug and tell you that too.

"Everyone who calls on the Name of The Lord will be saved"...Romans 10:13:)

Dear Evo,

I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks to you for
your comments, and,Thanks to everyone else
for their comments, as well.

I must admit that I admire Tor Hundloe's
view enormously. He tells us that -

Our planet can't sustain the continued
human population growth.

It means little
for a few to live well,
when the majority live in poverty.

We need to recognise that once the human
population peaks, the sooner we reduce
the total numbers, (via sensible birth
control), the less environmental damage
we will need to repair.

We can do this. World leaders need to start
taking notice of the vast army of experts
who are willing and able to guide us through
the coming difficult years.

As Tor Hundloe points out, a better world is
possible. It will take effort. It will be
difficult, but it will be worth it.

He says that "One quarter of the world's
mammal species are threatened by extinction."

and

"Temperatures will increase by 1.4 degrees C to
5.8 degrees C voer the next 100 years."

"...the rich are rich enough, and the poor must
become better off so that they are not forced to
degrade nature simply to feed their children.

...Conservation takes a long view. We today should
have a lower standard of living so that people
tomorrow will be able to have a standard of living
at all.

We can replace material goods with a range of pleasures
that do no harm to the environment. In this sense
we will be richer with less. Man's war with the earth
is becoming dangerous to both.

It is time for a truce."

The view that we have over populated our planet is true, surely no one could mount a defense?
But we must address some very real problems in addressing this problem.
We humans are different from country to country, some would without doubt except birth control, some never would.
Right now birth rates world wide differer from group to group.
I true think while we fight about religions, global warming and a lot more we do not yet have the will or means to control our planets birth rate.
Groups we would need to use to do this, like the United Nations can not even end wars and mass murder.
Can not stop millions dieing dreadful deaths ,starvation.
China has power far more than the west to control birth rates, just maybe we would need dictatorships to get results like that.
Natural events may kill millions but starvation and lack of water will do it if we do not control numbers.
Making laws is easy, policing them near impossible if we are talking world wide.

In reality, the pipe dreams is all they are. wishful thinking. Tor Hundloe on the other hand, his work is worth a read.

I see three things that will stop us in our tracks!

NATURE

WAR

OR DISEASE

EVO

Dear Belly,

Good points.
And good questions raised.
I don't have the answers.

But...

All the evidence suggests that we should aim for
a much smaller population than we have today.

There are highly developed European countries where-
regardless of religion - the population is declining.

Yet, politicians in the US, Canada, Australia, and New
Zealand are still promoting population growth.
I think they're wrong.

Whereas, the South Koreans, Singaporeans,
Japanese and Chinese - all with minimal births
per woman, are suddenly becoming concerned
about declining birth rates.
They shouldn't be.

Australian pollies like Peter Costello, should
be condemned for encouraging large families.

Paul Ehrlich, a biologist, published, "The
Population Bomb," back in the late sixties.
His central argument was that the world
is not large enough to nurture unlimited
number of humans.

The world's population at that time was three
billion. Today it is six and a half billion
and growing.

Belly, as you pointed out, how to control it
is the question. I don't know.
But I do know that we can't keep ignoring
the problem.

Dear Foxy

the quote from Imran Khan was noteworthy.

<"You can't fight an idea with
guns. In order to defeat terrorism, you must
win over the hearts and minds of the people involved.">

True, but you don't fight ideas with guns, you fight enemies.

But that kind of statement needs very VERY serious analysis.

Many people can only be 'won over' when they get what they want.
The reason they go down the terrorist path is because they are denied what they want.
So.. the important point in this is 'WHAT' do they want?

AFGHANISTAN. How are we to allow tribal people to grow poppy at the expense of supplying heroin to the world and destroying our own people?
Nope.. I don't care how much they want to grow poppy for heroin production I'd give them 2 choices. 'Stop it and change to a different crop or..we will declare absolute and unending war against you."

That war would involve fair warning...an ultimatum...then the obliteration of the crops..then..if they persisted..of the people.

South Thailand Muslims (and Southern Philippines Muslims) want independance. Do we (Thai and Philippine governments) just give it to them? If we did, then we would quite likely see those areas becoming hot beds of Wahabi guided radicalism and training grounds for world Jihad, and especially for the 'Pan South Asian Caliphate' which is their dream and is said to include some of Australia.

So...winning 'hearts and minds' is a very good soundbite, but the reality is far more complex.

Ultimately, we have to look after our own and our own interests, and to my mind, we need to ensure that our interests are based on fairness and justice in our eyes. (we will never meet all peoples expections on these matters)

Dear Polycarp,

Imran Khan was not speaking about global
terrorism. He was referring to the Taliban
and Al Quaeda in Afganistan - Pakistan
areas. About people that he knows, and is
familiar with their tribal customs.

According to his reasoning the way the West
could win these tribes over is by giving
them aid and in return asking them to bring
in the offending
elements, instead of bombing and killing their
villagers.

According to Khan there's only about
800 - 900 of the Taliban and insurgents, and
thousands of tribal people who would willingly
help if they weren't being constantly bobmed.

There would be no need for the military invasion
and waste of billions of dollars currently in
practice. According to Khan it only drives the
tribal people into the arms of the Taliban and
Al Quaeda.

cont'd

Dear Polycarp,

Regarding the Poppy Growers in Afghanistan (visit
Northern Tassie - the fields are full of poppies,
behind electric fences)...

If they did not have buyers for their product, who
convert the poppies into drugs, then there would
be no poppy fields. Maybe the authorities should
be pursuing the drug lords and not destroying the
livelihood of the peasants. If they gave the
peasants the incentive to grow other crops, then there
would not be a problem.

Currently, the Australian Government and the US Government
is subsidising crops for the production of canola and
ethanol.

Foxy,
Glad you liked Tor Hunloe's book. He’s an interesting man too. I met him at a book signing. I agree with much that he says. I'll tell him you liked his book.
Being who I am, Examinator ant I do see a few faults most are very minor glossing over contexts. i.e. When he talked about the ancient Greeks what he didn't say that they were a brutal, internecine group.
At one stage Athens’ political unrest decreased the population by 30%. Consequently Solon did his thing then went into exile so the Athenians work out what his poetry advice meant themselves. See Thucydides 'The Peloponnesian War'...worth a browse. Given Greece's 20th century history not a lot has changed.

My point; like Tor says we haven't advanced very much on understanding our selves (let alone getting on).

Secondly, if you look at the times (context) most great thinking/discoveries occurred in times of extreme 'challenge'.

I agree that we should focus more on understanding and getting on with ourselves dealing with our true nature rather than hiding behind dogma.

Given current extreme challenges we can therefore look forward to more brilliance from our thinkers (intellectuals) as it’s they who POINT the way. It is up to us to walk the right path.

Conversely wee currently tend to see philosophies as mutually exclusive magic bullets rather than adopting the best of all. Capitalism has some good (right) and communism has good too (left) I ask why not combine the bits of both rather than fighting over the absurd …which is absolute? This renders us victims of Evolution ‘blindness’ totally vulnerable both our selves and outside events.

Religion/philosophies are tools (means to an end not the end result) to help us towards humanistic goal improvement making us beneficiaries of Evolution… by ensuring a positive direction to Evolution. Yes that does suggest that we can positively influence natural outcome. Can you think of a more worthwhile purpose to the meaning of our lives as individuals? :-)

Dear Examinator,

Thank you for your input to this thread.

And, please tell Tor Hundloe that I liked
his book very much (as you can tell).

Hundloe may have left out the brutality of the
ancient Greeks, but what I valued was that he
did point out, "that the replacement of mysticism by
empiricism and rational thought (i.e. the scientific
method) was the Greek achievement. Had the classical
era of Greek thought not occurred we would be explaining
21st century climate change by reference to powerful
gods seeking to teach us a lesson or two!"

And, somehow I can identify you with Socrates...
From him comes the dictum, "the examined life"
is the life worth living.
Socrates asked us to question everything, and to not
accept an answer until we had rigorously debated it...

My father also, taught me to ask why.

I agree with your concept of taking the best out
of all the systems we have - be they capitalistic
or communistic or other. However, not everyone
thinks that way, as the hisory of the world has
shown.

Hundloe confirms that, "let us be willing to
confront both authoritarian idealogies (likely to be
the religious kind) and moral relativists (who won't allow
you to call a spade a spade because this might offend).

The history of the world suggests...that the authority of the
thinker can surpass that of the warrior.
However, this happy state of the world is often temporary.
That is one of our major problems."

Foxy,
I thought you would like it.

It's enough just to know something is. It is just as important to know why (your dad was wise to teach you to question. That, observation and clear thought are the best legacy a father can leave)...context; to know what caused it and then what CAN we learn from it.

My favourite line of investigation is the above, hence my tendency to take the objective (hopefully) view. Clearly I am not devoid of foibles (I've got a box of them under my bed) etc but out of context they mean nothing and are irrelevant.

I agree that the Greek philosophies have added to our 'tool kit' immeasurably but again the question for me is why the link between horrible circumstances and amazing clarity/advancement of thought? The fact that we can do this gives me confidence in humanity.

I submit to you that until we can break the nexus between the two we will remain evolutionary victims.

Statistically genera last a million or so years some longer, some less, then become extinct.

If we are to become a beneficiary of evolution we must curb our self destructive ways, Secular Humanism.

While not religious at all I can see that religion does have its place for some, as a means to give short term value in life but it must never be the goal. The beneficiary bit simply shows that one doesn't need religion to have a greater purpose and Evolution isn't necessary the Tyrannosaurus wait to devour us as some religious people imply.

Me? Like Socrates? Eek! What a humbling thought...unless… it's your way of saying that I'm an incorrigible, irascible intellectual curmudgeon.
Me like, Socrates? Remind me not to have coffee with you any time soon… well… mine's black no sugar and definitely no hemlock (it gives me mass existence failure after which I become dead boring). :-)

Dear Examinator,

I promise not to give you a cup of
hemlock to drink...
At least, not yet.

From the short time that I've shared
with you in cyber-space, and after
reading your posts I've deduced that
you do have much in common with the
Greek philosopher. And I don't mean
your age...

You also seem interested
in why people behave the way they do.
And you make me very aware of my
ignorance in so many areas...

So like it, or not, I visualize you as
Socrates...

Take care,

It looks like this thread has now run
its course.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to it.

Your input was much appreciated.