Last night, my wife was waiting for me at the local Macca's and she reported she observed a skinny bloke giving about $300 to another bloke. From her description in detail, it appears to have been a drug deal. The Police station is on the other side of the road.

I'm very interested in the experiences of other OLO contributors to this matter.

From my observations over a long period of time, the following are significant factors in the development of substance abuse.

1/ The wrong friends.
2/ The educational side of anti smoking campaigns which re-assure users that the damage can be undone in about 5 yrs of quiting....

3/ Problems with work.. fatique, pain.....and some 'helpful' workmate offers something to give you a boost..

4/ Problems with relationships. When things seem doomed.. and the feelings overcome the person, they might reach for something to numb the pain.

5/ Problems with fatigue and housework. Just a bit of this will give you the strength to get it done......

6/ Curiosity...."I wonder what this stuff is like"

7/ Social framework. It's the done thing among your peers/friends/associates....why be left out?

8/ You always think you wont become dependant.. after all, you didn't choose to be dependant.

I'd love to hear of some of those who have already intimated that they have experienced one or more of the above or.. if they have points to add to the list.

Finally... did they find a way out? and what was it?

Polycarp and others
BE ADVISED eAnt and I are family members not the same person. Due to an error on my part (I cancelled my account by mistake) for a short time we were using my login then the other. IT IS NOW SORTED.

As I have stated before I spent a number of years as a foundation member of Youth and Lifelines. I have continued these front line involvements in many other organizations since.

Recent research have shown that the problem of substance abuse/addiction is far more complex than is currently understood.
• There is significant evidence that there are genetic factors that may make certain people susceptible to addiction. This doesn’t imply that every addict ion is due to genetic causes. Nor does it excuse the abuse only that it should be understood as it impacts the manner and nature of the cure.
• Likewise there are those who are emotional addicts those who have either been overwhelmed by circumstances and are seeking respite. Likewise to cure the abuse firstly the emotional problem needs to be addressed.
• There are risk junkies who have an addiction to the endorphins etc in the brain which cause than opiate type high. In extreme cases this can have unwanted consequences.
• I have dealt with cultural or conditioned abuse.(Following in Parental influence)
• Mental illness.
• There are those unfortunates that are at the mercy of a combination of or all of the above. There is some evidence that some aboriginals are thus afflicted.
Your reasons are true but need close analysis often merely symptoms rather than the cause.
For many there are no Cures nor are there any magic bullets.
Solutions tend to be as varied as there are people who suffer.
Abstinence support groups i.e. AA are common. And offer some help But for some the emphasis on a supreme being is not appropriate.

The only absolutes are:
• that the abuser MUST WANT to fight the addiction,
• it unbelievably difficult,
• more so without support,
• and it will be a life time effort.

Thanx_Exammy...that was_all_helpful.

In regard to the point about the Supreme Being, I have to agree that trying to draw any unwilling person into faith would simply not work.

It's the same as for the addict or substance abuser who doesn't really 'want' to be helped. I can envisage some situations where the effected person might try to show that they are willing, but in fact have an ulterior motive.

My own view is, that unless the triggers are removed, i.e.. the

-Social framework.
-Relationship issues.(If_applicable)

are solved, then once the person is clear of the drugs, as soon as they return to the old environment, and the same triggers occur.. it seems to me that they are very likely to re-abuse.

For me, the ideal situation would be that a person wants not only physical renewal but also spiritual which is needed to overcome some of the very things which ended up being trigger events.

For example, in a relationship, if suspicion, mistrust, anger, revenge, lust are all parts of the natural personality, then what solution can be offered to fix these things? I suppose someone can come along and suggest that to persue such things will have negative results and outcomes..but then, if the person feels comfortable with themselves, they would tend to blame the other party would they not?

This is why I feel that not only a committment by the individual to get away from the substance abuse is needed, but also it should go the extra step and seek personal renewal.

I realize that people might find such renewal in many places, including (though I hate to say it) Scientology or Islam, or some thing of that nature. My views on those 'solutions' are rather well known, so I won't comment further on that. The problem comes when the individual has placed his faith in a refuge such as that, but is later confronted with some information which shows that his choice was ill-considered or that there are serious concerns about such refuges.

It could be like the carpet is swept from under his newfound feet?

We could expand substance abuse to include other addictions such as alcohol (could be considered substance), gambling and pornography.
Addiction to these things is not so much the problem but a result of another problem. In order to help a person with addictions we need to treat the problem, not the cause of the problem. If we sucessfully break a persons addiction to any of the above but don't deal with the problem they will just return to their former addiction.

Well said Steel... absolutely agree.

I also definitely include Alchohol and nicotine and gambling and porn..

yes.. in all cases there is a deeper underlying issue.. identifying that and providing the solution..the deeper one is the way to fix the addiction.

Steel Mann and Polycarp

You are right Substance abuse includes alcohol, drugs, glue and petrol sniffing, nicotine etc.
Gambling addiction is also related to endorphin releases similar to adrenaline junkies.

However I'm not sure of the status of porn I suspect that has more of psychological/emotional basis although there could be a physical addictive pay off. From memory all the “porn” addicts I came across were individuals with the afore mentioned P&E issues.
Caveat: this isn’t scientific though just experiential.

It is often difficult to determine the importance of the initial trigger to an addiction. Most addictions become a physical dependence exist after the trigger has gone.
i.e. I smoked a pipe for years because I thought it made me cool. Eventually I realized that it was self destructive action BUT by then my body was conditioned to the hits of nicotine, the addiction was physical and in this case THE problem. While I don't have a strong will power I DO have a strong WON'T power. Hence I haven't smoked in 20 years.

Conversely, as a young man I drank alcohol to excess as a means of numbing an extreme negative event in my life. My body habituated alcohol and it became a physical need BUT when I stopped got past the withdrawal symptoms the psychological pain returned and I started drinking again. In this case the Trigger WAS an important issue which needed attention as well.
The interesting point was that I was that while I was undeniably physically addicted to alcohol I was never an alcoholic! Eventually I did come to grips with the issue (except the odd nightmare) and‘dried’ out.
The important bit. Today I drink socially and can stop at any point. However to an alcoholic, 1 drink is too many and 100 not enough. They can't stop. They MUST totally abstain for the rest of their lives.
The only addictions I still maintain is the desire to help others, jigsaws, crosswords and debating on sites like OLO…:-)

Thanx Exammy...that was most interesting.

The bit which grabbed my attention mostly was this bit:

"as a means of numbing an extreme negative event in my life."

This is the aspect of life that I personally cannot really understand.
For me..I've had such moments. It's that point when everything you ever trusted seemed to evaporate, betray you...come to nothing, but it can also be an aggressive thing also...like someone trying to destroy your life (that was not my experience) and I imagine that if one saw no obvious way out other than a very serious criminal offense...then I guess 'numbing' might figure, but to me.. I still would not want to or go down that path because my head tells me that:

a) It's worse for me.
b) It doesn't solve the problem.
c) If I numb it.. it won't go away.

Can you please help me to understand why this was not the case for you at that time?..because your answer will fit many thousands of others who are at or approaching that point.

Did you consider prayer at all ? or seeking divine intervention or at least comfort?

Dear Polycarp,

I don't know if this is going to be helpful
to anyone, but here goes...

A few years ago I got addicted to the
strong calmative headache tablets - Mersyndol.

A doctor initially recommended them to me for
migraines. Before long I discovered that by
doubling the dosage to 4 tablets at night,
I slept like a baby. This was during a rather
difficult time in my life on a personal level.
I was not coping very well, and I found that
the tablets had a numbing effect, which helped.

Before long I began to rely on the tablets
for a good nights sleep. And after a time,
I simply began to take them every evening.
I was hooked, and totally relied on them
for a "good" night's sleep. I found that
I was able to put up with anything during
the day, as long as I had the tablets to turn
to at night. Pathetic, I know.

What scared me out of this cycle was when
I was told I had cancer. I stopped taking
the tablets immediately,
and have never taken them since.

Addiction, is an easy thing to succumb to,
as I found out. But having a health scare
helped me to get back to reality.

My advice to anyone contemplating taking
stronger medication for headaches - be very careful.
You may get more than you bargained for.

Poly and pals:

I have come to the conclusion that the whole world today revolves around drugs and the use of!

If you hear the stories of the troops who served in Vietnam and the troops who are now serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, it would appear that drugs in every shape and form play a big part in the whole deal ( regardless of how vehemently the authorities will deny it! )

It amazes me that so many people can voluntarily imbibe in the daily useage of drugs in all forms, ( and I think that they just cannot handle the pressures of modern day living without being bombed off their faces!)

It is becoming sickening when you see some of the youth of today ( highly visible on the streets ) staggering around either drunk or drugged to the hilt and read of the increasing crime levels due in part to the need for money to feed a habit!

Drying-out (Rehabilitation centres) appear to have a very low success rate, simply because an addict needs to WANT to give up the nasty habit, and obviously very few seasoned addicts really want to give up, because it has been their only escape from their own personal mental problems!

If anyone wants to argue with me that I do NOT know what I am talking about, please accept that I have a daughter who herself became addicted to softer drugs (for kicks)and eventually ended up on Heroin. She herself does not know why she got involved in heavy drugs, but has suffered intensely as a result, having had two heart-valve operations and stents in the brain!...(what is left of it!)

This information alone should be sufficient to frughten off any potential drug-users, but it will NOT, because the peer groups apply their own pressure, some local policemen turn a blind eye to these goings-on and I would suggest are involved in the big game themselves.

Look very carefully at your own children, as no one is immune from this terrible scourge!

Cuphandle
One of the tragedies of life was quoined (a printing term) goes "youth is wasted on the young" and to some degree is true. When you’re young you believe that you’re ‘9 ft tall and Bullet proof', tragedy or death is something that happens to others.

I only wish that stories like your daughter’s would make a difference. Tragically it doesn’t, most people feel THEY are immune. What many don’t realize or acknowledge is that in reality the old saying “there but for the grace of God go I”. That pathetic shadow of a person substance abuser could have easily have been them if but fortutous circumstances and that we can't afford surity in all thing unexperienced.

Long term addicts have a physical need and a reduced capacity to make any meaningful decision regarding stopping. Imagine if you will being subject to the most mind altering and painful torture you can at that is what an must endure to dry out. Contrast that with the greatest moment of physical bliss one can experience then that is the sensation that encourages early drug abuse. The pleasure BLOCKS reason. I don’t pity addicts, I understand them …that doesn’t mean I want to join them or I condone them, I simply feel non directive compassion.

As a young man (20) and a youth line trouble team member I watched a lonely young woman (18) ( who under normal circumstances I would have pursued with enthusiasm) dissolve into a Mickey Finn induced coma only to emerge 120ish days later with the mental competence of a 3 yo. I understand your distress. Particularly since she had previously rang in for to discuss whether to go to the fateful party. The police never tracked down the person who spiked the punch with LSD.

I feel for you and your daughter but the one truth I’ve re-discovered is that no matter how hurt you are it won’t help your daughter, she is what matters now

"Last night, my wife was waiting for me at the local Macca's.."

Eating MacDonald's and other such 'non-food' on a regular basis is just as damaging to your health as regular drug usage. It's also just as big a drain on the public purse.

Hi Foxy,
Might I say that you’re looking particularly foxy today. ;-)

Bronwyn
I know someone who saw "Enough Rope" with Nigella Lawson :-)

Polycarp,
I’m a firm believer in ‘context’ as the definer of all things. The sentence that so interests you was an illustration to my point about the differences (complexities) in the causes of addiction. What it wasn’t was a Freudian cry for help or to open up a thread for discussion.

The event in question was traumatic in its own right but it was also in a context of prevailing time and space. It is not that I’m unable or unwilling to discuss the incident or the issues surrounding it is simply I have resolved the both long ago and I see no useful purpose in a detailed discussion in this context. In short the topic is moot.

I would take the opportunity to note that the mind and its physical entity the brain are both an endless source of cures for itself. A mark of EXPERIENCE is knowing that there are an infinite number of way stations and ways to mental hell . A sign of LEARNING is knowing that there are as many ways back. A sign of MATURITY being able to find the right one for you and WISDOM accepting that everyone’s path is different. Being HELPFUL is not confusing the pronouns ‘me’ and ‘you’ when pointing. :-]

Bronwyn... it so happened that Macca's is a convenient place to meet. She had been to the doctors actually, and I needed to get to the tip before it closed and return a trailor. We did have a quick maccas for our dinner as for a women who is already coming down with a cold and had spent the day with me clearing out a house, neither of us felt like preparing food thereafter. I think your post was just a tiny bit.... well.. please think about it.

Foxy.. most interesting. Specially the part about didn't plan/realize what was going on. In your case it seems, (If I read your post right) that there was an underlying medical condition ie.. headache pain.. which you were seeking to address with the tabs. This is the more understandable path to unintended addiction.

Anyway, I hope your more serious health problem comes under control, as well as you staying free of those tablets.

Cuphandle.. you have my sympathy for your daughter. I only found out the other day about my own eldest son having some issues with alchohol.

It seems to me that when someone does become embattled in a losing fight with drug addiction, they need all the triggers removed if possible...and this can include a home environment as much as a peer one.
I'm helping a young man at the moment come out of drug abuse, and you cannot imagine how thrilled I was this morning to hear our speaker relate a Biblical healing in his talk. A baby with a skull which would not grow to allow the brain space. Scheduled for surgery to split the skull, medically diagnosed, all on the record, mum called the elders to pray and annoint with oil (James 5) and when the child went for surgery the surgeons said "Nothing to be done... it's all ok"

You all know by now that in my case, the belief that Spiritual renewal is the most needed dimension in escape from drug addiction. Some can do it alone, but others need special help.

* also definitely include Alchohol and nicotine and gambling and porn.. *

The thing about addiction is that it changes brain chemistry and
makes people feel good for a while, so they need more to cope with
life. Religious addiction is of course a major drug too, where all
reason is thrown out the window, to help people cope with life.

Fair enough, each to their own poison :) The point is, as we see
so commonly on OLO, religion is definately an addiction that
helps people cope with their lives. Wether it is actually true
or not, is beside the point. The Xtian loves his god as much as
the Muslim loves his god as much as the Hindu loves is gods.

So IMHO brain chemistry is what it is all about. The religious
nut is as addicted as the substance addict.

Porky: << It seems to me that when someone does become embattled in a losing fight with drug addiction, they need all the triggers removed if possible...and this can include a home environment as much as a peer one. >>

Indeed - and I imagine that a home environment characterised by an overbearing Christian fundy father and a regular diet of McDonald's junk food is probably full of such "triggers".

Dear Cuphandle,

I'm so sorry for your daughter.
And, I wish you and her, All The Best.
Stay strong, and my prayers are with
you both.

Dear Examinator,

Thank You. You have a wonderful capacity
of making people feel better about themselves.
It's a gift.

Dear Polycarp,

Thanks for your kind words.
I won't ever return to taking those tablets
again. My health scare
woke me up well and truly. As for my current
health, well, so far so good...

Yabby says:

"Religious addiction is of course a major drug too,"

Surprisingly(?).. I_agree.

Kind of. If by addiction one means a change in the brain chemistry.. absolutely!

"be transformed by the renewal of your mind"(Rom12:1-3)

But there are some differences between drugs of addiction and religious "addiction".

The chemical variety creates an artificial "high" .. with endorphins well and truly served by the chemical interaction of the drug with our brains.
The downside of course is the 'low' which inevitably follows.

Then there is the difference where, as one's brain becomes familiar with the levels of stimulus.. it requires more and more to create the same level of high and here is where the destructive spiral happens.

There is definitely a 'high' associated with religous experience. But this requires (dare I say it... to quote Sancho) a 'nuanced' analysis.

The 'high' one experiences by faith in Christ, is one of overall well being, and deep inner contentment, based on the fact that one is assured of Gods unfailing love for you.

Secondly, it is not a selfish, gratuitious high,.. as in 'I want to feel GOOOOOD'... no..it is more 'I want to be right with the Almighty.. free from sin, free from it's penalty, and this means a person must in fact turn away from many of the more carnal avenues of endorphin release.

I'd like to see some research about 'good endorphins' and 'bad' ones.. or.. those related to inner tranquility and those related to a chemical fix.. and to know if there is a difference. I can only speculate based on experience at the moment.

The other major difference between a Christian 'high' and a drug high, is that (besides being 100% free:) you cannot maintain it and at the same time indulge in immoral behavior. It is only connected to high morals and righteous behavior.

Needless to say that when one departs from pure fellowship with Christ on one's daily walk, there is only misery which follows.
So.. we don't need to be reminded of our failings, we know them blow by blow. We feel it.

I’ve found this discussion very sketchy. Addiction is the issue - the focus of that addiction is secondary; the process needs to be understood.

We are a combination of physical and mental phenomena. The body is not solid, it consists of particles which arise and pass away with great rapidity; so do the mental phenomena, which comprise four elements. The first is consciousness, the part of the mind which recognises a contact – contact of a vision with the eye, a sound with the ear, a thought with the mind etc. The second part is perception, which recognises and evaluates the contact – e.g., a sound has come to the ear; if it is, say, words of praise, we evaluate it as good; words of abuse, bad. This evaluation leads to the third part, sensation – every contact generates a related sensation on the body; in accordance with the evaluation, that sensation may be regarded as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. The fourth part of the mind reacts to this sensation, with liking or disliking. These processes continue every moment, our so-called subconscious mind constantly reacts; and these reactions of liking and disliking lead to strong cravings and aversion.

Addiction is not to the external object, but to the sensations on the body – the mind craves a particular sensation, and we take an action which generates that sensation. To control addiction, you must control reactions to the sensations. To do this, you must understand their nature; to do that, you must learn to observe the sensations with detachment.

The nature of sensations is impermanence; they arise and pass away with great rapidity, they have no substance. This is the nature of existence – no substance, no continuing entity, nothing to cling to – and we suffer because we do not understand this, we cling to the imaginary I, me, mine rather than observing the flow of physical and mental phenomena with detachment, without identifying with it.

This understanding is the starting point for dealing with addiction, or any other form of suffering.

Hi Faustino
well..I'm quite familiar with your Buddhist approach to life by now... and appreciate your input.

For your 'detachment' I offer 'transformed mind. I say that, because how can the 'I' in us detach ourselves from the reality we face?

The "I" in us does not go anywhere.. it cannot hide...in fact..it is most difficult to hide your "I" from the craving for alchohol..as a young man said to me a week or so back "If you know the bottle shop is just a km away..you will find yourself sprinting to it"

You say 'detach'...but I ask 'who/what will do the detaching'? You speak as if there are 2 entities in our being. One can order the other to 'be gone' from some temptation.
Perhaps I'm misreading you, but you can correct me.

I prefer to focus on our core being itself. My starting point is of course the spiritual.. which influences the physical. Something has to 'direct' our being such that our brain chemistry will be altered.
But I can only accept that our consiousness and spiritual dimensions are interwoven into the total 'us'.

The crazy thing is... that we can 'know' that something is 'short term pleasant/long term harmful' yet.. because the negative consequences are not felt immediately, on the contrary pleasure/gratification is the immediate outcome of much harmful behavior... we often cave in to it.

I contend..that under the influence of the Word of God, our spirits/hearts are challenged and our consciences are touched, such that we have an opportunity to make a change of direction. (Repentance) After, or proceeding from, that change of direction (an act of the will) our brain chemistry will alter in a positive way.
The Bible calls this 'sanctification', a process. Phil 3:12-14 applies.

Polycarp, not “Buddhist”, which is sectarian, but realist – the Buddha taught a technique for observing reality as it manifests within one’s own mind and body, to see things as they really are rather than merely at the gross, apparent, surface level which we normally perceive.

Applying this technique, you won’t find any “I”, but a flow of phenomena arising and passing away which the (fleeting) mind can observe. A foundation of the technique is observing a strict moral code, in practise very similar to the code I learned from a Methodist mother. You can’t remove sources of temptation, by understanding the transitory nature of existence and the suffering inherent even in pleasant experiences if we crave for their continuance/repetition, you remove the desire for them, the craving for the sensation they bring. This is how I dealt with drug use, promiscuity and suicidal tendencies – I’m sure I’d have been dead decades ago if I hadn’t learned the Vipassana technique, which enabled me to live a life which was good for me and good for others rather than continuing with self-destructive habit patterns.

Addictions are entrenched habit patterns, cravings for particular sensations. Whatever the proximate cause – e.g., in my case, fear of rejection and inability to commit arising from the trauma of a family break-up in my infancy – the answer is to dissolve these negative habit patterns. Vipassana is a simple but powerful technique for doing this – I don’t know of any comparable solution. Criminals generally have very strong anti-social habit patterns, Vipassana has been used successfully in prisons in several countries to break these patterns and change the behaviour of even hardened criminals.

Of course, the addict must have a volition to change. My rescue began when I was pulled back from the brink of suicide by someone who had learned many things of value in India, leading me to go there. So a first step with addicts is to get them to see that there is an alternative, they do have a choice and a capacity for change.

On the last point, addicts are always driven to addiction by some particular suffering, often depression or leading to depression. People with depression etc tend to have a very distorted and confined view, people who haven't been severely depressed can't comprehend the condition, and sufferers tend to feel very isolated. Some years ago I read and posted on the depressionnet website - it was clear that many new posters couldn't understand their condition, thought it was unique and didn't know where to turn; and that when they found out that they were not alone, people did understand, people could empathise and advise them, it could be a turning point, a glimmer of hope. Something like this is needed to give people the vision, volition and courage to move forward.

I gave voluntary service for about 30 years in helping others to share the benefits of Vipassana (not evangelising, but helping to organise and manage courses and build and run Vipassana Centres), I had to give up during several years with concurrent severe illnesses, and have been delighted in recent months to be able to resume managing courses. So I've not only seen the change in my life but that in many others.

Which is not to suggest that non-meditators can't help addicts! - just to say that I put into practice the point of helping people to change. That said, many addicts will have to have already made some progress before they could cope with a Vipassana course, in retrospect I had several months of preparation once I'd decided to make changes.

Many have found, like me, that once you make that first, mental, step, avenues open up, positive forces come to your assistance. Volition is the key; helping people find that volition is the non-addict's role.

Polycrap: << I contend..that under the influence of the Word of God, our spirits/hearts are challenged and our consciences are touched, such that we have an opportunity to make a change of direction. (Repentance) After, or proceeding from, that change of direction (an act of the will) our brain chemistry will alter in a positive way. >>

So if all that's the case, why is your son abusing alcohol - given that he's undoubtedly been "under the influence of the Word of God" since birth?

Drug taking is similar to immoral behaviour. People believe that the temporary pleasure (or escape) is worth the risk. That is why with years of indoctrination about just wearing a condom teenage pregnancy rates still climb. The only difference now is that we now terminate (murder) in order to cover up our shame.

Spiritually whatever a person is overcome by is that which he/she serves. Whether it is drug taking, sports, sexual immorality, homosexuality, gambling, alcoholism pornography or paedophille.

I know a number of drug takers who want to give up but they love the pleasure of it more than their own children. This is what happens when we are mastered by things that are totally selfish.

Humility, repentance and asking for Christ's power has and does lead to freedom.

The good news is that those caught up in such bondage are far more likely to turn to Christ due to their desperate circumstances. The ones who 'have it together' disguise their greed, lusts, perversions etc in respectability (art, sports, careers, environmentalism etc etc)

This little piece of logorrhoea should be enshrined forever as the "paedophile priest" defence.

>>under the influence of the Word of God, our spirits/hearts are challenged and our consciences are touched, such that we have an opportunity to make a change of direction. (Repentance)<<

Boaz, even a devout non-believer can feel sorry for what he has done (repent,in your terminology), and decide to "go straight" in future.

Usually - as with our priestly friends - after he is caught.

Tell me please the number of the current crop of Christian kiddy-fiddlers who gave themselves up, as a result of their "spirits/hearts being challenged under the influence of the Word of God"

There were none, Boaz.

Just like in real life, with real people.

Goodness/badness is 100% unrelated to religion.

Unless of course you are inclined give the paedophile priest extra demerit points for being a hypocrite as well as a sex criminal.

There are many pathways to substance abuse.. and some of them are like a growing sapling. When they are young, they can be snapped..but as they grow, it becomes more difficult.

Pericles, welcome to the thread, but this is not about goodness or badness. It is about substance abuse and the triggers thereof and ways out of it.

I don't see what unrepentant priests have to do with it. But you make one important contribution in showing that 'knowing' is not the answer, it must be translated into the will for the knowledge to be of value. That a priest can 'know' about child sexual abuse being absoulutely wrong...and yet carry it out repeatedly, should tell you something about the type of training and selection methods for priests.

When a person is in a state of depression, and has an accompanying dependance, it seems to me important to recognize the triggers.
If one of the triggers is "lack of hope... lack of meaning" then clearly that need must be dealt with.

In some cases the trigger is from a complex situation which the person cannot recognize themselves. Counselling of course can help in this.

The point I was trying to make though in the last post, was that brain chemistry is definitely changed through a repentance and faith experience. It is a change of huge and dramatic proportions.

If you pull someone back from the brink of suicide, they need much more than the 'rich tapestry' of life as you sometimes put it.

Dear Faustino
I had a look at that Vipassana idea. I can see how such an approach might help a person who simply wants a physical solution to the problem.
It seems to be like a 'detoxification' avenue.

The problems I see with it are as follows:

The only hope it offers is a this worldly one. It relies on your own inner workings to succeed. I was discussing this issue of suicide with some young blokes at gym last night, and once (all pretty rough blokey types) they got past the non serious stuff, it came out that they agreed about trying to tell the person that there is hope.. and filling their mind with positive thoughts. We all agreed that being with the person through the most difficult first few nights alone would be beneificial.
I think once that most dangerous phase is passed, then things like meditation might offer some glimmer of self help.

But consider this. Meditating (praying) on/to a real resurrected Lord who assures us of His unfailing abiding presense in our hearts, and providing us with a lifelong framework of fellowship and love...all of which reinforces that glorious hope of John 14:1ff "In my Fathers house are many rooms..if it were not so I would have told you" all backed up by the resurrection of Jesus..the conversion of Paul, the great promises and assurances "In Him the fullness of deity dwells bodily"
"And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

33"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.

You mentioned a strict moral code. But the difficulty I have with this is that apart from Gautama Buddah's version of 'moral code' it has no other foundation. He died... the end. Why would his code be better than Bill Hensons? This is the difference between Christ and all contenders.

"We serve a risen savior, he is in the world today" as the_hymn goes.

Boaz, you have a very selective memory.

>>this is not about goodness or badness. It is about substance abuse and the triggers thereof and ways out of it. I don't see what unrepentant priests have to do with it.<<

it was you yourself who introduced the concept that some form of "repentance" is a factor in addressing the problem:

>>(Repentance) After, or proceeding from, that change of direction (an act of the will) our brain chemistry will alter in a positive way.<<

I was merely pointing out that "repentance" is an empty word in this context, hence my reference to priests - who, I believe, in all probability, given their calling, would have in fact been "repentant" of their deeds.

You inserted the word "unrepentant" yourself, simply in order to distance yourself from the unpleasant fact, that your religion offers repentance as some manner of formal self-excusing, self-healing process.

It is a highly self-indulgent process, where the "forgiveness" is of a kind they believe to be far superior to that - if it were offered - of the people whose lives they destroyed.

Most of the people I know who deal directly with drug problems on a daily, as opposed to a casual basis, are Salvos. All of those of my acquaintance keep - deliberately - their religion well separate from their attempts to bring constructive self-awareness to those they are helping.

They believe that direct moral and physical support is the first order of business. As do most of those they have helped, when they in turn try to encourage others to break the dependence cycle.

While some addicts do indeed use religion as some form of spiritual methadone, actually helping people taking control themselves tends to be of more certain, and longer-lasting, benefit.

Pericles: << Boaz, you have a very selective memory. >>

Indeed. He seems to be avoiding answering my question about why, if the solution to substance abuse lies in acceptance of the "Word of God", his son is apparently abusing alcohol.

Has Porky Jr strayed from the Word and therefore in need of repentance? Or could it be that there are other factors in play here that have little to do with Porky's hypothesis that addiction is caused by godlessness?

Whether it be sons or priests/clergy.... each individual is responsible for their own actions.

Pericles... the law is still the law..and there is no amount of self excusing that can run roughshod over criminal acts. On reflection, people caught doing illegal things might well regret.. but regret what? that they were caught? that is for sure.. but regret the mindset which caused the behavior.. let's hope so..but even if this is the case, the law is still applicable.
So..again..I don't see what your reference has to do with it all. If a priest/clergy person allows themselves to develop attitudes which are 180 degrees opposed to the specific and clear teaching of Christ.. then they are in sin.... absolutely.

I don't want the thread to be sidetracked or hijacked. I think most of what needed to be said has been..unless you can offer something about the pathway...the triggers and the way out?

A very long time ago a young man came to my door to talk to me about God (I think he was a Baptist).

I got chatting to him on the doorstep, being young and wanting to push my own barrow about why God could not exist.

It turned out the young man had been a drug addict and had found his way out via God. Considering the Church he had chosen, from my understanding of it, was one of those "hell-fire and holy water, speaking in tongues types". I couldn't help thinking that he had just replaced one addiction for another and how his condition had been exploited by others for some missionary purpose.

He was a nice lad but the fervour and extremism that had been fuelled in him disturbed me and I could see how this fervour could easily turn into fanatacism with rose coloured glasses. It is this sort of fanaticism that enables terrorism when the conditions are ripe enough.

Cuphandle “I have come to the conclusion that the whole world today revolves around drugs and the use of!”

Strange, I have a different conclusion, maybe I get out and mix with people more.

Bronwyn “Eating MacDonald's and other such 'non-food' on a regular basis is just as damaging to your health as regular drug usage. It's also just as big a drain on the public purse.”

Maybe you could cite where McDonalds is proven to contain no nutritional benefit
Further, I have yet to see anyone being dragged fighting and screaming into a divvy-van or flat lining because they O/D’d on a quarter pounder

As for the “big drain on the public purse”, is piffling rubbish since the “public purse” has nothing to do with how a private individual disperses their private discretionary income.

Fact is anyone can become addicted, defined as “the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma.”, to anything.

Even posting on OLO, chat rooms, speed dating, aussie rules football (now that is a serious one)

Examinator “Nigella Lawson” now she could become my addiction.

Regarding the “trauma” upon cessation, that is a critical test.

Emotional addiction is not the same as physical addiction.

Forget trying to address those two areas in the same statement. Emotional addiction of any sort is merely a character issue, physical addiction is the serious compulsion which manifests the addict with serious medical / physical issues if they try to cease their addiction.

Substance abuse is not about maccas, internet, porn or gambling, it is about ingested or absorbed “substances” which the addict is, to some extent, debilitated if they are not supplied.

My own observation of people who have succumbed to excessive (and addicted) substance abuse, distinct from the rare/occasional users is

They are seeking to find something or compensate for what they think they lack within themselves, often unconsciously, like the adolescent who is trying to “find their place” in the environment of their life or they have an overgrown sense of personal entitlement which allows them to ignore their responsibility to those who love them.

To fix those problems the individual needs to inspect themselves, their motives and their responsibilities

Anyone with any doubts should read the steps to recovery on the AA twelve steps.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

You can substitute any other "Substance" for “alcohol” in the above.

Ultimately, the onus is upon the individual to make their own way.

So I guess at their next Macca's soiree, Col will be recommending the AA 12 Steps to his mate Porky, as the best approach to dealing with Porky Jr's alcohol problems.

After reading Col's 12 steps for recovery from substance abuse, I considered what a 12 step program would be for atheists, Buddhists, or any who do not believe in a a big daddy in the sky. Seems there is a lot of invoking of a diety and not much about a holistic approach to actually stopping drinking, shooting up, snorting or however the drug is imbibed.

However I am sure that Col will be an invaluable source of empathy and assistance for the plight of his good friend Polly's son's alcoholism. And that is a good thing, isn't it?

CJ Moron… I ponder why anyone, capable of such cynicism as you display, bothers to breath and extend their personal agony.

Fractelle “After reading Col's 12 steps for recovery from substance abuse,”

My apology, I should have referenced the source, rather than leave you to presume the 12 steps werte my idea…

If you go to
http://www.aa.org.au/factfile/fact_file_twelve_steps.php?nav=mb

people there are far more experienced than I in the matter of substance abuse – actually they had a meeting at the weekend in Drysdale and I did go along (although not for personal solace).

however, one point about them steps
#10 “Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. “
Equates to values I endeavour to follow for myself, regardless that I am not addicted to anything, being about accepting personal accountability and responsibility for our actions.

“I considered what a 12 step program would be for atheists, Buddhists, or any who do not believe in a a big daddy in the sky”

You need to reread the text particularly “God as we understood Him.”

“However I am sure that Col will be an invaluable source of empathy and assistance for the plight of his good friend Polly's son's alcoholism. And that is a good thing, isn't it?”

There is, supposedly, good in all of us

and I am sure if we were to look long enough and hard enough we just might find some in you and CJ Moron too.

Well, at least I'm discerning in the company I keep, and don't fantasise about butchering pets, nor gloat over drowning refugees.

CJ Moron "Well, at least I'm discerning in the company I keep, and don't fantasise about butchering pets, nor gloat over drowning refugees."

That is the same 'discernment' which pariahs adopt simply because they cannot find anyone silly enough to keep company with them.

You make it sound like you are making a choice, Moron...

but we all know better.....

Quite helpful material there Col...thanks

Fraccy... at least you have the kindness to see some good in what Col said..

In any case of addiction, family and friend effort is important I feel.
Sometimes we need new friends...

Polycarp, Vipassana is not “a physical solution” but a deep spiritual process of self-purification. As my teacher Goenka says, when you remove all impurities, what remains is purity. Put another way, the Kingdom of Heaven is within you; know thyself. Vipassana is a way to do this, a path to sainthood. It is based on observation of reality as it manifests in one’s own mind and body – the only place where we can directly experience reality and, through detached observation, understand it, know the truth of reality and develop wisdom.

If there is a God (or gods), if that is reality, then a technique for observing reality should hold no fears for you. Try it, it’s only ten days, no belief system is involved and no-one has to disavow their belief. It’s a non-sectarian technique, someone of any or no religion can benefit from it.

The moral code taught by the Buddha has been prevalent in the East for millennia, in Hindu and other religions. It didn’t originate with him, nor did it die with him. It is (briefly) to abstain from killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct and intoxicants. This has benefits in itself (I’ve walked both sides), and should be acceptable to any religious person. In the context of Vipassana, it is a necessary step to quieten the mind enough to develop the concentration necessary to observe subtle phenomena within oneself.

Yes, it relies on your inner workings to succeed. I think that is what all great religious leaders have understood and taught; “coming to God through Jesus” surely means developing within oneself the qualities of Jesus – love, compassion, selflessness, wisdom. Vipassana is a way to do this.

And, to get back to the topic, a way of removing the impulses which lead to addiction.

So once again the evil, slime-dripping, slavering beast has emerged from the depths of it`s subterranean lair!

When is some bold knight going to drive a wooden stake through this demented beast`s heart and forever silence it`s demented wailing as it seeks more victims to feed upon, in it`s desire to satisfy it`s never-ending craving for blood?

Cuphandle

Are you referring to the evil that is drug addiction or Col Rouge?

Can't be Col, his posts over the years have been pretty sensible, and he usually copes well with provocation.

That's a joke, Faustino - right?

Check out his performance on this thread:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7899

Fractelle and Faustino:

Whichever is the lesser of two evils!

I do NOT provoke,....but I certainly will retaliate when I consider the necessary action is required ( and if I consider the offender is worth the trouble! )

I do get a bit sickened with the continued sniping and indications of a screaming superiority complex whenever he enters nearly every Forum and endeavours to take total control of the whole issue!

Fausti....

you said:

“coming to God through Jesus” surely means (etc)-Vipassana is a way to do this.

I cannot see why JESUS is 'the' way to do this? Meditate on Him.... not on some 'system' mate. Prayer, reading his Words.

You saw the target "Jesus" you aimed..... you pulled the string of the bow back... and... let the arrow fly...but turned away at the last moment. Instead of hitting the target you hit a tree off to the left.

That would place the experience of the faith on a totally human level and would deny the true nature of both the Lord and true experience of Him.

When He said "I am THE way".... He mean't it. He, or contemplation of His life is not what it is about. It is an experience of His person, an actual renewal of heart through a relationship. Through knowing Him and having Him in your heart, mind and will.

When you say that Vippisana worked for you I quite believe it. I also feel it could 'work' so to speak for many others.
But that does not alter the primary fact that Peter expressed as follows:

He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. (Acts 10:42)

"Coming to God through Jesus" is about forgiveness of sin, not the management of our own impurities, though that is a side effect of the relationship.

If we seek to deal only with out impurities apart from Christ.... it might make is more acceptable to our fellow man but what about to God against whom we have all sinned?

The forgiveness from God in Christ does not only begin at a specific point and take us forward...it meets us at a point and looks BACK as well as forward erasing all our dark past and promising a wonderful and bright future.