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The Forum > General Discussion > Time For Ordinary Folk to Fight Back.

Time For Ordinary Folk to Fight Back.

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An unbridled financial system in the US seems like bringing the world to it's knees in a 1930's like depression.

Globalisation is not the god of good times.It has condensed wealth in too few hands and now the hard work of the masses seems wasted.

Fanny May and Freddy Mac have lost 5 times our annual GDP.This is one third of the USA GDP.Lehman Bros have lost $100 billion.The present debacle is far from being played out in full.

Real wealth exists in the minds of a motivated population who aspire to a better life,not one subjugated with the chains of debt, formulated by a lazy,despotic financial system.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 18 September 2008 10:36:47 PM
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GOD IS NOT MOCKED A man reaps what he sows......8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction;

the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

LEHMAN BROS.

"the firms had improperly associated analyst compensation with the firms' investment-banking revenues, and promised favorable, market-moving research coverage, in exchange for underwriting opportunities."

KEY WORDS. "favorable ...'market moving'.. research"

i.e.. in order to make more money for the people doing the trading... the financial advisors...brokers etc.. they would manipulate 'research' reports specifically to achieve greater personal wealth for their traders, rather than the customers/shareholders.

They were forced to do what they SHOULD have done in the first place:

"a complete separation of investment banking departments from research departments"

But now...they have paid the ultimate price.. and all I can say is "ner ner"

GREED...is 'good' until it gets discovered :) then it bites us in the bum rather severely.
Posted by Polycarp, Friday, 19 September 2008 7:40:41 AM
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If you want blame someone, blame your Gubbermint. It's about time someone starting knocking the heads off at the top.

How much of the price of fuel is tax?.
Posted by StG, Friday, 19 September 2008 8:08:00 AM
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"Fanny May and Freddy Mac have lost 5 times our annual GDP.This is one third of the USA GDP.Lehman Bros have lost $100 billion."

The truth is that they've only lost this amount "on paper" as it's highly likely they've never really been worth this amount. The beauty of this financial collapse to quote Paul O'Neill, is that the "genius of capitalism" has forced a reciprocal discipline/pressure onto these organisations which has, in turn, caused them to implode when it became obvious their touted financial worth had no substance.

In Star Wars terms, this is the equivalent of the destruction of the Death Star. Hopefully this means all of us decent ordinary folk (Jedi, Wookies etc) will have the yoke of the financial system taken off our necks.
Posted by RobP, Friday, 19 September 2008 10:17:38 AM
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Arjay:
"Time for ordinary folk to fight back"?

I have been "fighting back" all my life and believe me when I say it is bloody lonely on this little island.

I do NOT believe in Credit! ...If you don`t have the money then you cannot afford it. ( the one exception to that rule is for the purchase of a home, which has now reached preposterous proportions! )

I DO have a Cash Card which is treated by the system as a Credit Card by incurring the same charge for it`s use by certain greedy businesses, however the beauty of a Cash Card is that one cannot financially abuse oneself by spending more than one has in deposited Credit.

I have been sensibly thrifty all my life (due to my education and upbringing) and own my home and land in a Rural area. I receive NO services whatsoever from the local Regional Council.
I resent having to pay Rates (annual rental) on my own Freehold property and decry a so-called Democratic system that encourages an annual "adjustment" of Unimproved Valuations ( this year a mere 100%) and increasing yearly due to the demand that has been created by Peter "Boofhead" Beattie and his invitation to the carpetbaggers from the South to migrate to warmer climes, forcing up rapidly the real cost of land and housing!

This system of "Unimproved Valuation" should morally only be applied when an owner decides to sell the property, thus the true Capital Gain could be realised, leaving the owner who is NOT wanting to sell, secure in the knowledge that he is NOT going to crucified by money grabbing "revenooers" and possibly forced financially off his own land!

Yes...Arjay! I am ready to fight back and one day I might find somebody else who will support me and has the intestinal fortitude to stand up and be counted to oppose the continuation of this WAP Democracy that knows nothing else but pay, pay, pay and take, take, take!....Where is our Democracy Mr.Orwell?
Posted by Cuphandle, Friday, 19 September 2008 11:07:36 AM
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The rescue by the USA Federal government of Freddy Mac and Fanny May?

Is that an example of Socialist Capitalism or Capitalist Socialism? Soooo confusing. And oddly hilarious. Because Socialism has nothing to do with it – it is Capitalist Totalitarianism – when corporations and government combine to rule.

Consider another example of Capitalist/Government total control:

“Then, as now, hypocrisy and self-delusion were the final ingredients in this ideological brew. When it came to practical matters, neither the business elites of the first Gilded Age, nor our own "liquidators," "terminators," and merger and acquisition Machiavellians ever really believed in the free market or the enterprising individual. Then, as now, when push came to shove (and often way earlier), they relied on the government: for political favors, for contracts, for tax advantages, for franchises, for tariffs and subsidies, for public grants of land and natural resources, for financial bail-outs when times were tough (see Bear Stearns), and for muscular protection, including the use of armed force, against all those who might interfere with the rights of private property….
Crony capitalism, inequality, extravagance, Social Darwinian self-justification, blame-the-victim callousness, free-market hypocrisy: thus it was, thus it is again!”

http://littlurl.com/my4yh

and

“Cutting ties to Wal-Mart is a way of refusing to participate in a very damaging economic practice. Wal-Mart -- the largest company in the world -- operates in a way that increases government welfare spending, contributes to suburban sprawl, drives local companies out of business, decreases employment in both retail and manufacturing while lowering the wages in both sectors, and increases our tendency to consume natural resources that we do not need…”

http://webhost.bridgew.edu/jhayesboh/badbusiness.html

Time, indeed, for ordinary folk to fight back.
Posted by Fractelle, Friday, 19 September 2008 1:43:45 PM
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Good idea Guys,

Lets fight back. We'll forget that in comparison to large parts of the world we are rich beyond their wildest dreams. We'll forget that we are free to do or say pretty much what we please.

I personally find the idea of public bailouts of private companies repugnant, There is a certain truth to the suggestion that some of these companies have privatised their profits and socialised their debts. True economic liberlaism calls for those companies to be allowed to fail. And a lot of them do. However the consequences to ordinary people of allowing some of the very big companies to fail would be significant.

Fractelle,

Your suggestion that the bailout of Freddie Mac and Fannie May is Totalitarianism is simply preposterous. This is not about governments and companies ruling together. It's about stopping ordinary people from losing their jobs and their homes. That seems like an entirely reasonable action for a gov't that is supposed to look after our interests. Those companies which can be let fail without causing massive damage to the economy will be let fail. Those which can't, won't.

It does seem as if there needs to be better regulation of the banking and financial systems. You suggest that the system has allowed the concentration of wealth in a few hands. Whilst you would need to ignore the fact that the vast majority of average Australians have shared in this wealth, it is equally true that a lot of once rich people have lost a lot of money recently. That is how the system is supposed to work.
Posted by Paul.L, Friday, 19 September 2008 2:35:20 PM
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Well the share market bounced back today,but how long can the American tax payer keep bailing out failed financial institutions?

Banks,insurance companies don't actually produce anything.Banks are the gate keepers of the medium of exchange which is now a commodity,to be used as a yolk to extract the maximum amount of profit for the least amount of effort.It was an orgy of profiteering at the expense of common decent,hard working citizens.

How the Bush administration can be re-elected after their willful neglect of their ordinary citizens is beyond me.Are the ordinary people of the US so ignorant that they cannot see what is in their long term interests?
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 19 September 2008 7:11:23 PM
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The Anglo-Saxon economic model of debt-fuelled growth funded by borrowing against speculation driven asset values - effectively spending money today that anyone with half an ounce of common sense could see was unlikely to be earned tomorrow - was always bound to end in misery.

I notice that continental European countries have been very reluctant to adopt the Anglo-Saxon model of "spend madly today/worry about paying it off later", and, as a result, their economies are in much better shape to cope with the current downturn.

It's time for English-speaking Western countries to re-assess the sustainability of the whole high growth-high debt model.
Posted by Efranke, Friday, 19 September 2008 7:51:27 PM
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Fractelle.. you need a good dose of SouthPark...the episode where they killed Wallmart :)
Posted by Polycarp, Friday, 19 September 2008 7:57:17 PM
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Fear is now our greatest enemy.Just this week I've learned that a potential customer of mine in Aust has been victim of Lehman Bros to the tune of over $2 million.I need the work,but do you trust them enough to get the final payment?

In the US they have the same problem magnified many times whereby there is almost no trust.How does your economy function effectively in such an environment?

The house of cards is a very fragile trust which all our survival depends upon.
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 19 September 2008 8:44:38 PM
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I certainly don't blame globalisation, for we all benefit from
globalisation, every day.

Fact is that a mob of crooks were allowed to operate in Wall St,
with relative impunity. Somebody clearly made a lot of money
rerating all those subprime loans as AAA, I have yet to see
where those people are going to land up in jail.

The people who voted for Bush/Cheney are now paying a huge price,
as Bush takes America to the edge of the economic cliff.

So how do Americans respond? Many are singing the praises of
McCain/ Palin, a couple of economic illiterates.

Clearly Americans need yet more pain to learn!

Old Osama seems to have been not so far wrong, when he said that
his best method was to send America broke. The place is now
not far from that point. All very sad to sit and watch really.
"I told you so" might make me a smart arse but its all part of
America going down the plughole. Sad but true.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 20 September 2008 12:15:57 PM
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Trouble is the global financial system allows mobs of crooks to operate unregulated and unchecked. Once again the taxpayer is bailing out the corporate sector. Enron was another group that manipulated the market by dubious means all under the watch of Conservative Governments.

It is very much a case of privatising profits and socialising losses. That is the irony. But what to do - many ordinary citizens will be affected.

In general we don't blink an eye to corporate welfare (dressed up as incentives, bail outs or compensation when government policy interferes with profit).

But a few disabled pensioners, carers and aged pensioners asking for more money is seen as a burden on the budget.
Posted by pelican, Saturday, 20 September 2008 12:51:39 PM
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*Enron was another group that manipulated the market by dubious means all under the watch of Conservative Governments.*

Err hang on Pelican, that is American Govts. I gather that it was
in fact the NSW Labor Govt who ok'ed their Shires lending money
to Lehmans, via CDOs etc. Now they have around 600million at stake.

Why is it that a simple farmer such as myself, who knows just some
basic common sense about financial markets and has various investments,
has so far been able to avoid any major losses by any
of these cowboys, be it in Australia or overseas, yet all these
paper shufflers in offices lose hundreds of millions on behalf of
ordinary folk?

Clearly we have some very incompetent people working in Govt.

The writing about the Wall St cowboys, has been on the wall for
a long time now. If people don't take notice, they should be sacked
from their jobs, for alot of them clearly don't know what they are
doing.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 20 September 2008 3:03:55 PM
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Yabby Globalisation is driving wages lower in developed countries.This has enabled more wealth from the masses to go to the financial markets amd gamboled by an elite.Living standards have fallen here a lot in comparison to the 1980's.We have a much Greater GDP per head yet ordinary people have a lower living standard.

Since the US tax payer is going to bail out these thieves,what should happen is that a special long term tax should be put on all US financial institutions that needed saving,until it is repaid to the tax payer.The CEO's reponsible should be charged and gaoled.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 20 September 2008 6:14:17 PM
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*Living standards have fallen here a lot in comparison to the 1980's*

Arjay, 25 years ago, Hawkey was PM, Australia had just won the America's Cup. THE CD was yet to be invented, a fax machine,
if invented, would have cost you about 20'000$ or so. To pay
for a phone call to Europe, you just about had to mortgage the
house. Who was better off 25 years ago? The median wage does not
reflect your memory.

*The CEO's reponsible should be charged and gaoled.*

Yup, on that we agree.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 20 September 2008 9:33:00 PM
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Yabby bring into the mix the cost of food ,housing ,fuel,GST and other Govt taxes and charges as a proportion of wages.People are far worse off.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 21 September 2008 12:28:10 AM
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Arjay, that might be the case in your patch of Sydney, but that is
certainly not the case, Australia wide.

We humans tend to have faulty memories. If you look at the stats and
the big picture, what you see is Australians now have houses nearly
twice the size that they were, 30 years or so ago. Remember the
3 by 1 fibro? Today even the unemployed have air conditioning,
something that was a luxury 25 years ago. Most cars today are
air conditioned. People have mobile phones, internet, computers,
plasma screens and a host of other "luxuries" which they take as
standard.

Today roughly half the population own shares directly. Many people
own second homes. Through their super funds, Australian workers
today virtually own most leading ASX companies. Fact is Australians
are richer then ever before.

Basic food, if you shop around, is still extremely cheap and takes
up a lower % of the budget then 30 years ago. But there are more
luxury foods around then 30 years ago, I grant you, for those who
want to buy them.

Things might be tough in some parts of Sydney, but in WA
I see youngsters in jobs, being paid amounts that were just not around, 20-30 years ago.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 21 September 2008 11:15:07 AM
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Yabby,

I think Arjay and some of the others might also be talking about quality of life which is strongly linked with moral values.

Cuphandle raised some valid points that must be addressed also.

Well may you be proud of WA and may I ask whats going to happen there when we run out of minerals.

You say your a farmer but there are many farmers who do not agree with you in WA. Just a few weeks ago there was a large group of farmers protesting about these operations taking up all the farming land and destroying the water ways.

Now I know what it takes to get a large mob of farmers stirred up enough to rally about anything so things must be pretty crook in WA.

So whats WA policy on global warming ? I mean its a tad rich isnt it for Australia to be complaining about Global warming while flogging the stuff that is the cause of it to China ah.

I noticed on another thread I think it was your comment regarding you having shares in Westpack and how well thats doing.

Yabby Westpack bank as you probably know collect the funds paid in by Muslim people to sacrifice animals in ME.

Its law over there that each family buys a animal to be scarifised.

If you think thats Ok and Westpacks involment in that cruel practise is ok then enjoy your shares.

*The CEO's reponsible should be charged and gaoled.*

Yup Starting with Westpacks! who just like Wesfarmers ABC and others bend over backwards to hide their dealings in the barbaric trade.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 2 October 2008 7:20:58 AM
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