As a PhD researcher into the transgenerational effects of PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) I am alarmed at the growing masses of children and grandchildren of Vietnam veterans reporting an increasing number of behavioural and psychological concerns that have identified genetic and environmental links with PTSD. Epigenetics, genetics, psychology, education, sociology, neuropsychology and other fields have a vested interest in following this field.

I am the son of a Vietnam veteran, ex-serviceman and a father. My concerns are whether my children can inherit the legacy of the Vietnam war. I have researched this issue for several years and gained several qualifications in neuropsychology, epidemiology, teaching and health & safety as a consequence of my quest.

This topic has been in the media for some time now (eg The 7:30 report, ABC Radio National, etc) and much academic research has, and still is, being conducted on this volatile and sensitive issue. The upcomming national study on the health of children of Vietnam veterans will certainly be of keen interest to myself and many like me.

My research, for one, is examining the impact of this phenomenon on Australian Workplaces and family adjustments. I am keen to hear from other children and grandchildren of Vietnam veterans on their experiences.

Well.. I'm ex RAAF.. went to Vietnam, (briefly) and have 3 children.

I honestly do not 'get' PTSD on the scale it is reported, in regard to war service. I'd like to know how many such instances were reported among our ex WW1&2 diggers. But I have uncles who were POWs.. walked across the Alps after escaping etc.. were shot at.. shot and killed enemy etc... I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever of this trauma.

The only type of trauma I was aware of from the world wars was 'shell shocked' like after intense bombardments.

I have a sneaking suspicion, that many people in more recent wars, were young during the 60s.. Vietnam was still going. (I was 18 in 67) and it was a period where many of our parents values had been ejected producing a kind of 'moral limbo' for many.

I also believe that many were exposed to a side of humanity (both on ours and the enemies side) which challenged many preciously held views and values. Many must have experienced crises of faith in humanity and governments.

It was an era where "if thats all life is, bring out the booze and lets get stoned" was in voque. There was a song to that effect but the title eludes me.

Lack of 'connection' with our culture and history stream might explain some cases.. but I don't know.

Regarding Vets and children and passing on the outcomes.. I think if a father becomes morose and introspective, and has lost faith in his society, there would be an inevitable impact on children.
History, if nothing else is the chronicle of warfare and stife.

Ex servicemen and women need to recapture the values they know are good, and pass them on to their children... there will always be war and that is also something children need to know.

If there is a genetic predisposition to PTSD, then what is actually being said is that the person has a naturally more responsive flee-fight response, and in the bigger context of things this would be a smaller component of the aetiology.

Medically speaking, the 3 areas we humans react badly to is a forced change against our will to our home and life we have established, our work and income life which includes our health, and the biggest is our meaningful relationships we have established and maintained particularly with our children. Force disrupt any of these and you will create the enviroment for PTSD.

In war, usually the person is removed from all the 3 above, and placed in a situation where they are involved in force affecting the same on other people... one can easily see how any person who just 'feels' will be stressed in the said situation and why a large number of people will go into the chronic phase of PTSD where they just cannot resolve the experience and come to peace with it...

Sam
Want to learn more, search internet on 'adrenaline' 'cortisol' 'dopamine' 'amygdala' 'cingulate cortex'...

Thank you Sam, however I have already extensively researched the role of neurotransmitters and cortico-steroids in the PTSD process. Due to ethical boundaries, much of the available data is based on animal studies (such as lab rats) that may not translate to human neural interfaces. My focus is on the human experience. However, I thank you for your input and will value any further contributions you can offer to support my research.

Ken.

I believe that parents who have PTSD as well as a range of anxiety/depression disorders have no choice but to socialise their children into a world that operates within the frameworks of mental unhealth. We all know about the importance of the formative years 0-5 or 6 for laying the foundation for such things as language skills, motor skills, sociability, etc. It is also where dysfunction can be implanted into the growing consciousness which has the potential to regenerate in following generations until some healing occurs, which might be through basic things like a fullfilling job or a loving and supportive partner. But it might not, and significant others may accommodate or circumvent problems rather than addressing them and thefore perpetuating and expanding the dysfunctional social environment, and therefore through simple pavlovian response, institutionalises the dysfunction.

I believe a clear example of this on a large scale is Aboriginal society, that exists today as the product of generations of trauma which has become self perpetuating since the release of the restrictions of the protection acts and slave labour.

The difference here is that the PTSD is generalised in the Aboriginal community and it is more likely that sufferers will support each other rather than have the opportunity of healing with a healthy partner or social circle. Whole families and communites suffer this problem and will continue to do so until something significant and positive occurs in their environment into which they can be socialised.

A depressed/anxious person cannot see an opportunity and must be released from this stress before an opportunity can be take advantage of. in a strong family, someone will intervene and drag their loved one out of depression or confront their dysfunctional lifestyle and force change, as only a loved one can do.

Sorry to go off subject but I think this sort of research has relevence to more than war vets and their families and Aboriginal communities who are not the only "categories" of this sort of situation.

Hi there...
Yes, I'm a Vet too. Eight or nine years ago, I was diagnosed with PTSD by a specialist at the Repatriation Hospital. As a consequence of this diagnosis, I was admitted (as an in-patient) into the PTSD programme, conducted by the Hospital, on behalf of the Dept. of Veterans' Affairs. There were seven other vets also admitted to the programme too. The programme was conducted over a period of three months, with further weekly meetings or groups, for another six months or so. Initially, it was quite intense levelling off as time went by. Spouses were also encouraged to participate, and in fact they also met as a group once a week, quite separately to us.

Personally, I found the programme to be good. We were taught many different strategies to help us deal with the myriad of issues confronting vets today. However, as time went by, what I did observe and realize was, that some of our cohorts, tended more and more,to apportion significant blame for all their ills and problems, as a consequence of their military service. In some instances, this was legitimate, and in others, quite implausible.

At the conclusion of this quite lengthy and protracted programme, I was less convinced that this so called 'PTSD' diagnosis was in fact valid (for me at least) at all ? Personally, speaking for myself, I don't believe I have this mysterious PTSD condition. I reckon that the symptom/s that I may have displayed and presented with, could've be attributed entirely to the fact that I was going through a particularly bad patch, in my life. And perhaps I simply didn't have the mental strength or character to address and overcome these difficulties. Probably, these testing times would have happened to me anyway, whether or not, I was a veteran or a civilian.

As to whether this PTSD condition can be passed on to our children/grandchildren...perhaps? If such a condition really exists to the extent they claim ? Is PTSD the new 'RSI' of the 2000's ? Gee, I don't really know!

Kind regards...O Sung Wu.

Researchaholic

You have not mentioned the abominable effects wrought on humans from the ingestion of dioxin (an agent orange compound).

A knowledge base already exists on the low dose, long term, indirect biological effects of dioxins. This includes the developmental, neurological, hormonal and immunological disruptions and cancer promotions as a result of exposure to the bioaccumulative PCDDs.

Measurements of PCBs and dioxins are highly complicated and very expensive to conduct, however, I believe more should be done by our governments into the research of this chemical on our viet. veterans.

Humans are constantly exposed to dioxins in their food as a result of industry spewing this muck out. Certain natural phenomena contributes also, such as bushfires etc, therefore, those veterans exposed to an excesssive dose of agent orange in Vietnam could have limited possibilities in detoxing as a result of the bioaccumulative effects of POPs.

I trust you have seriously considered the impacts that this most insidious, devastating chemical has on the human body.

All my best wishes to your Dad.

Reasearchaholic,
I am surprised that you dont have human data. A quick search on cortisol correlated to subjective stress level gave a number of results. (search names 'cortisol' 'stress' 'studies') and if you are into to research then here is one;
cortisol level in job loss, cortisol in family separation particularly children, cortisol in exam period... (these days cortisol can easily be measured from a swab of saliva)...you will have no problem with subjects numbers and data as the subjects can obtain the samples for you, just your funding and time...
But yes, there is a line between stress within normal human experiences of life, and PTSD which is an extreme form, in the same group as 'nervous breakdown' where the emotional brain just shuts down as it is no longer able to cope with the situation etc...

Sam
I agree that if you are going to go into other neurotransmitters then you will be muddying the water so to say eg with dopamine and serotonin which predomimate in states of depression (which is more an effect of PTSD that primary symptom)...Hope this helps.

Researchaholic;

just re-read your first post. I am curious on your study. What are the markers for statistical comparison in your questionaire to your study that you are conducting, and what is the population numbers you are seeking to get a valid result to hypothesis...
Sam

Dear King Canute,

I am in complete agreement with your comments regarding the neglect of the Aboriginal experience with PTSD. My father tells me that he fought alongside many very capable Aboriginals in Vietnam where the colour of their skin was rapidly forgotten. Not only did they have to face the collective riticule from the marauding hordes upon their return, but they have the perpetual neglect and abuse of their culture as a whole. The transgenerational transmission of PTSD amongst this population must be very significant indeed. This may be reflected in the numbers of children and grandchildren of Aboriginal Vets that are incarcerated.

For this reason I am hoping to collect experiences from several Aboriginal vets and their families as well.

Thank you for your input and feedback.

Dear O Sung Woo,

I think my Father went through a very similar program in Toowong Private.

Sounds like you are in one of those cohorts who display resilience, rather than defeat. I congratulate you...

"That which does not destroy me only makes me stronger" (Frederick Nietzsche)

Dear Dickie,

I am very aware of the damaging and "abominable" effects of TDCC and other agents on the human genome. I have recently had direct dealings with the release of a report into the carcenogentic factors and transgenerational effects of these. Much of this was attributed to the distillation of esturine water onboard naval and army smallships that was supplied as pottable water to the infantrymen, RAN personnel and associated military contingencies that operated during specific times in the Vietnam conflict. The report stated that heating the dioxin increased the carcenogenic factor by 4 (=400%).

I also have a young son with spina bifida.

However, this is not the focus of THIS stage of my research. My study investigates mental (un)health and the psychological byproducts of living the experience of PTSD

Dear Sam (re post Wednesday, 8 November 2006 8:43:36 PM)

I have been aware of the impact of cortisol for many years, and agree with you, that it is a suitable avenue for collecting human data. However, this stage of my research is to collect the "Lived Experience" that supports and further contributes to the human data already collected. To the best of my knowledge, this has not yet been done in Australia, and will either support, or challenge policy mandates that govern collective industry initiatives.

Thanks again for these documents. I recently found over 2000 peer reviewed citations on Pubmed for "neurotransmitter genetics epigenetics PTSD siblings children" for a ten year period. Thus there is a substantial urge to identify conclusive factors into this issue.

Hello there Researchaholic...
Far from it I'm afraid ! I only wish that I had a bit of inner strength, or personal committment to address and overcome many of my personal ghosts and problems. I'm now 63 yo., and still going along to the VVCS for treatment et al. Research....., I reckon that many of the difficulties I've experienced in my adult life, were NOT in anyway, attributed to my military service. My first marriage failed, not because of any military service, but because I was too selfish and lacked the necessary social maturity to initially, live in domestic harmony.

I sincerely believe that some Vets. tend to blame their service, for many or all of their health issues. I was on the 'edge' of a conversation not very long ago, where I overheard an eminent Psychiatrist (at the Repat.) remark to her colleague, that SOME veterans were classed as..."professional veterans, who manifestly contributed to a sort of Vietnam Veterans Industry..." , and further, ..." the acquisition of a TPI classification, was almost a right of passage, for some..." ! Or language to that effect ??

I don't really know about that, but I've seen vets on the TPI, running their own businesses etc (Don't think they're allowed too ?) However, I would be most interested in your opinion, Researchaholic.

Apropos, the PTSD programme - I believe your Dad may have attended the very same or similar to that which I attended. I believe that they were structured and conducted nationally. I sincerely hope that your Dad received benefit from the programme, in any event.

Kind regards...O Sung Wu.

Dear O Sung Wu,

I believe you may be quite accurate in your summation of "Professional Veterans" on TPI. There may be a sub-culture of perpetual and habitual "victims" that sustain the system. This is no different from the Social Security system that Centrelink manages. We call them "Dole Bludgers". However, there are those majority who are fully entitled, and deserved of their compensation and pension. My concern is for the children and grandchildren of these individuals and assisting they receive understanding, awareness and recognition for their situation./
"Honouring their Heroes: Living the Legacy."

Thank you.

Very interesting Researcha'

First of all, I personally believe that psychiatry is an unproven and unscientific theory. Chemical imbalance is a good example.Here is another: http://www.newstarget.com/z020092.html
Ask any psychiatrist about how many patients are actually being healed and according to interviews given by attendees at a recent world congress for psychiatrists, all answers given were: NIL,NADA,ZILCH!
I won't even touch the subject of drug-pushing as an answer to pycho-healing.
Any social problem arising from any trauma, whether it is caused by alcohol/drug abuse,war experiences,fatal accidents,loss of family,rape and other sexual abuses causes a protective capsule to be build for survival. In our society that same self-protection causes conflicts and most often physical diseases will emerge.
Children ofcourse will be influenced by their parents (anti-social) behavior. After all they become what we feed them.i.e.TV,Parents,Schools,Pollies & Lollies,Aspartame,Fluorolisic acid,Sodium nitrite,Transfat,Mercury laden vac's,Growth hormones,MSG's,Dioxins...you name it.
I'd say help your dad and yourself(and other Vets and their chil'lers)with EFT, stay away from any drug-therapy and do research on testing for heavy metals.
This was my 10 pills of chlorella worth.
Chiao
For research http://www.emofree.com/AffiliateWiz/aw.aspx?A=1345&Task=Click