do you ever notice that when ozzies talk about politics, they never inject a 'how we can fix it' in the discussion?

that's because they can't fix it. ozzies have no power over politics, that's the private preserve of politicians, who are the inheritors of aristocrats, who were the inheritors of norman warlords, who establihed parliament. never any democracy involved. no 'citizen initiative' here, nor can be, for there are no citizens here.

the depressing truth is, almost all the political discussion in oz is mere gossip, engaged in not to form citizen action through referenda, but to advance academic careers, or simply to release a sense of rage at watching the pollie guild driving the nation into ecological disaster, economic ruin, or <fill-in>.

it is mere gossip because ozzies are not citizens, they are 'subjects', people to whom and on whom, things are done by the ruling caste.

it is most depressing because when this is pointed out, they accept it, shrug their shoulders and change the subject. no need for soldiers, no need for cells and chains, when the chains of submission are part of the national character, the inheritance of a thousand years of forelock tugging.

so next time you read an article in the journal, watch for the phrase 'the government must'. it is so typical of oz pundits and would-be wise counselors from academia: the government must do it, if 'it' is to be done, for no one else can do anything. but the government only 'must' do one thing, and that is stay in power. they don't have to do anything else for they are the masters, not the servants.

the writer uses 'must' to pass a responsibility for action to his master. he should say, "please, master", but pretends to be instructing rather than pleading to disguise impotence. and of course, often the writer is well aware of the situation, and his instructions to government are mere academic display, not meant to lift the nation so much as lift his career.

It does my head in how no one ACTUALLY gets angry.

You're 100% right.

The French government introduce an act SIMILAR to 'Work Choices' just for the pre-20's(?) about the same time 'Work Choices' here. There were riots in Paris. What happened here?. A vote. A coupla years later.

As for the fuel rort. It's obvious it's happening, and STILL nothing.

Unbelievable. New Zealand is no different. I'm convinced it's something in the water.

Gee, I can't believe my eyes reading your comments Demos.
Finally, for the first time in decades someone else realises what's really going on. I almost gave up that there could still be a flicker at the end of the tunnel.
How can we make common sense contagious again, get the lawyers out of politics & focus on training rather than education. No, I don't imply no education. I am implying that education merely brainwashes the masses, training builds communities.

The media is just as complacent.

I've seen TV interviews where some politician is being interviewed and the interviewer is more interested in the politician's 'fluffy-bunny' family life than any people-unfriendly policies that their party has inflicted on us.

The biggest joke was when Rudd and that fat clown Hockey had humourous little exchanges on morning-brain-dead TV when they were supposedly from opposing parties.

I'm not biased to any one party, I hate all politicians.

I agree Demos. We are all guilty to some extent of this sort of apathy in the face of not knowing what else we can do to increase public participation in decision making.

Even our own electoral system is not truly democratic when a party can receive the most votes but still lose the election because of the way they are distributed.

Part of the problem is access to politicians to be able to lobby for change.

I don't know what the answer is. The Rudd government is making some noises to make government more transparent and open and this will be a good thing if it comes off, but as far as democracy goes only a large lobby group of citizens united in a common cause will grab the attention of those in the top caste or in the media.

People are too busy paying off their huge mortgages and other debts to spend much time on politics and thus the apathy continues.

As a child of the 60s and the 70s I do miss the passion of that time and observing the will of the people as they took to the streets on many an occasion to protest against Vietnam, the Franklin, nuclear testing etal.

With all this whining about 'earthly' solutions.. or the lack thereof ...

maybe it's time to considere the heavenly version :)

"If any man is in Christ he is a new creation, the old has passed away, and the new has come."

Now we all know that no 'system' will solve our problems.. but then.. many of our 'problems' are manufactured in our own mind... because of our earthly perspective.

I guess when all you have is 'this life' and take the attitude of some that there is nothing after it.. then it stands to reason that anything getting in the way of total selfish satisfaction is an annoyance and is stealing from your limited time.

Just imagine.. a day when you have to just 'wait' for some other person or company or government official to sort something out...
that's a DAY from your life you will NEVER get back..and could have been used for some leasure or profit activity....

The Christian view is "I have learned to be content in all circumstances"...but of course, if you can improve things a bit..why not, no drama.

The MEdia...is not 'complacent'...it is COMPLICIT.

Demos et al,

So you think there isn't enough public involvement in decision making.

Please do enlighten me as to your opinion on the average voters economic literacy, understanding of foreign affairs, logistical or organisational understanding, large scale service delivery experience etc.

What you suggest is ridiculous. If you bothered to note opinion polls at all you would see that people change their minds about important issues every day, often on the basis of inanities like the married status of a politicians child.

If we were to base policy on this kind of democracy we would be stopping and starting every second day. We couldn't organise ANYTHING more than a couple of weeks in advance because there is no way of predicting public support for ANY venture that far into the future.

Representative democrcay isn't a perfect system but the alternatives are SO BAD it doesn't bear thinking about.]

Pelican,

Pelican >> “As a child of the 60s and the 70s I do miss the passion of that time and observing the will of the people as they took to the streets on many an occasion to protest against Vietnam, the Franklin, nuclear testing etal.”

That generation were no more politically aware than today’s generation. The vast majority of protesters of that generation were bandwagon jumpers who were participating in the latest teen fad. Turning up at a demo and shouting slogans didn’t actually require an understanding of the political situation; it was enough to know which side you were on and what catchphrases to use.

I think this is more than clearly underlined by that generations’ political views and participation today. They are the MOST selfish generation we have seen in Australia so far, although the pampering of their kids means they will pass that particular baton on. I think it is an obvious conclusion to draw that the hippie generation were never truly interested in politics outside their own narrow self interest.

Paul, I agree it is not possible for all issues to be decided by the people. Our system accepts that when a party is voted in they govern on our behalf based on the policies they promoted pre-election but the system can be improved upon and there are many issues that we, the people, are quite capable of making up our minds.

There are many areas that we can involve the public in decision making by using referendums. It would be unwieldy and expensive to hold a referendum on every issue but in the past many referendums have been held during other elections to avoid duplication of costs etc.

Referendums are not perfect as we saw in the 'Republic' version where the model put forward and the lack of choice being so manipulated as to ensure a No vote. There needs to be some regulaton to ensure the fairest outcome based on providing a selection of choices which would be heavily discussed and debated prior to the referendum being held.

The Republic referendum is just one example of a failure of democracy - where a government has already decided that it's opinion is the right one and takes steps to ensure that their will (not that of the citizens) is carried through.

Another example, was the referendum held to decide on ACT self-government. Both times the people voted NO and what happened, we got self-government. An expensive bureacracy that was not needed for such a small population and one that was previously well served by the Commonwealth Government.

This is what some of us mean by a failure of democracy which includes more transparent and open government and better access to government by ordinary citizens. And making politicians and government more accountable and more open to scrutiny. Otherwise you get facism.

Paul that is your opinion that the protestors of the 60s and 70s were bandwagon jumpers, many were committed believers in a better world and in making governments accountable for their actions (such as nuclear testing around the Bikini and Muroroa atolls and within the USA).

While I agree totally with DEMOS and the others, I think in a practical sense a good part of the focus should be on policy-makers and the huge segment of the Australian population that are professionals, such as lawyers, or the privately wealthy. Professionals and the wealthy subscribe to old politics. They are clueless and ignorant. They support statism and authority to the degree that they have been unable to think independently. These people are not widely read. They are followers who subscribe to the authority of the state and it's systems. It doesn't help that both religion and feminism have shackled free and independent thought in this country. Our political system is archaic and wasteful.

Don't take that comment to be dismissive of the op. Any of us would change this in a -heart-beat- if, or when, we have the power to do so.

In au we have elections to air our greevances. If that fails you pay money to student unions, to cause a cuffuffal.

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Sir Winston Churchill

and this...........

"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few."

George Bernard Shaw

There are many more suitable quotes from many brilliant minds, but those three seems to sum it all up for me. We vote for who we think will give us the most, and the politicians try and tell us what we want to hear to get into government. What I would like to see is a bit less pointless argument just to be seen to be in opposition and a little more bipartisan agreement, but I suppose that would be seen to be weak.

I can't imagine the chaos that would result if every decision was made on the basis of a referendum. We have to have people of intelligence and education to make decisions on our behalf. I would like to see a minimum five year term for our politicians and then we might get some sensible long term planning instead of short term expedience.

The MEdia...is not 'complacent'...it is COMPLICIT.
Polycarp,
I don't disagree but the media is also very irresponsible. Austin Powerless calls it braindead.
It really is no different to industry. people complain about multi-national companies making a fortune just as people complain about politicians. Who puts them there ? People who don't think. That's who !
if you had a majority of people who cared, felt responsible etc. you'd never hear or see of a "left". Big companies wouldn't be big if morons didn't buy their rubbish & we'd have less pollution.
It all starts with the idiotic education system in australia where a moron can have a certificate without being proficient in the subject. Why, because teachers aren't allowed to let a poor performing student fail. Tafe lectures too are not allowed to fail a student. Yet especially the left labor is pushing education at every election. Where has this gotten us as a country thus far ? To near third world standard and the lowest western standard.
For crying out loud let's train people to be useful rather than useless & waste costly education on them.

It is the old story of divide and conquer.The globlised economy seduces us with lust of wealth from the share market,while we readily accept the firesale of our energy and resources to feed it.

In the meanwhile the living standards of ordinary Aussies continues to decline even with a $1.1 trillion economy.ie GDP

A trillion is 1x 10 power of 12.Divide this by our workforce of 10 million,then every worker on average should be earning in excess of $100,000.00 pa.This is clearly not the case.

I suppose you know about Getup. Politics as marketing? Online campaigns which run only if enough people click their mouses? Its a form of democracy despite the newfangledness. Here's a note I received from them yesterday:

Hi there,

Thanks for choosing to watch the Senator you've selected. By keeping tabs on this Senator, you're contributing to the creation of a more accountable and transparent democracy. Remember - your Senators work for you - Project Democracy reminds us all that Senators are responsible to the community.

You'll now receive weekly updates on this Senator's media appearances - you'll be able to keep a track on what this Senator is doing and saying. You'll also be able to tell if they're doing enough on your behalf.

Remember to come back to the Project Democracy website frequently for news, parliamentary information and commentary from other Australians on all the other Senators.

Thanks and best wishes,
The Project Democracy Team

Pretty cool, I think.

One of the biggest problems we have is the Tweedledum-Tweedledumber domination of Australian politics by two major political parties whose ideologies have been becoming closer and closer, to the point that they're now virtually indistinguishable in the major policy areas.

This has largely been facilitated by our preferential voting system and single-member electorates. If all Australian parliaments adopted multi-member electorates together with proportional representation, as opposed to the current 'winner takes all' system, then we might get something that more closely resembles democracy.

It works well in Tasmania and the Senate, but I doubt we'll ever see it in the House of Reps because it would remove the current stranglehold that the Tweedledum ALP and Tweedledumber Coalition have on political representation in this country.

CJ, Tasmania is the basket case it is, despite the hundreds of millions from the rest of Oz, because of that idiot electoral system. The votes of a small number control the voice of the majority, to the majority's dentriment.

The main problem with our federal system also comes from there. Idiots, like Brown, are ellected to the senate by less votes than it takes to be a Brisbane concillor. A prime example occured yesterday.

When you get 6 twits, controlling legislation, you are heading for the worst kind of government.

Rudd is a fool, but I would rather have his full policy [if he has any, other than paying back facvours] implemented, than have that of 6 special interest ratbags. At least people would see much sooner, their mistake, & ditch him, earlier.

If only the major parties had enough sennse to preference eachother, we could be rid of all this rabble. It is disgusting that these fringe dwellers can effect the lives of REAL people.

Hasbeen> "It is disgusting that these fringe dwellers can effect the lives of REAL people."

I find it incredible that you don't think "fringe dwellers" of any kind are not "real people". What do you mean by that "not real people"?

Hasbeen,
I agree with your fringe-dweller, i.e. fence-sitter, analogy & yes Steel they aren't real people. They're bureaucrats.
In my opinion they are whiteanting our social structure & the deedledumb & deedledumber who vote them in can not see past the next football game or world champion wrestling episode.
If I had my way people would need to be at least 25 & pass an exam to become eligible to obtain a voting license.

Hasbeen - I think it's drawing a very long bow to blame Tasmania's current economic woes on its electoral system. Apart from a brief period some years ago, the Greens in Tasmania have never been in a position to directly influence Government decisions one way or the other. Take the current Gunns debacle as a case in point.

<< A prime example occured (sic) yesterday. >>

Er, that was Fundies First Senator Fielding siding with the Opposition to support purchasers of new expensive cars. Bob Brown and the Greens had nothing to do with it.

<< If only the major parties had enough sennse (sic) to preference each other, we could be rid of all this rabble. It is disgusting that these fringe dwellers can effect the lives of REAL people. "

I think that's exactly what they did in the last Tasmanian election, thus disenfranchising a significant proportion of the electorate. Do you know what 'democracy' means? [Hint: rule by the people]

Lastly, I'd submit that the 48% or so of voters in most Australian electorates who don't get the government they voted for are "REAL people". Just not the ones who get to rule under the current system - or rather, those who didn't elect the current crop of politicians whose foremost priority is getting themselves re-elected in a couple of years' time.

Do you know what 'democracy' means? [Hint: rule by the people]
CJ Morgan,
That is the core of the problem.

Yes CJ, that's the piont, of the majority, by the majority, etc. Not by the minority, where just one man, or a small groups personal opinion & biases rule the majority.

Pandering to these special interest groups has cost this country, & its majority, more than any off shore problem.

On hearing the late and unlamented Premier Iemmas comment that the sell-off of the electricity industry in NSW was 'too important for parliament to decide', I changed directions and started to drive towards our parliament to join the throng of citizens I imagined would be converging there to protest.

The fantasy passed as quickly as it had come to me, and I resumed my trip homeward, lest I felt embarrassed to be the only one there.

While CJ's multi member electorates do not fulfill DEMOS' criteria for democracy it is a step in the right direction.

48% or so of voters in most Australian electorates who don't get the government they voted for are "REAL people".
Cj Morgan,
YEP ! and more crap is being dished up because a lot of clear thinking people just give up in despair. We'll just have to repeat history & wait till Labor ruins everything & then start again with a conservative lot. As long as there are morons there will be a left. pretty simple really.

"YEP ! and more crap is being dished up because a lot of clear thinking people just give up in despair. We'll just have to repeat history & wait till Labor ruins everything & then start again with a conservative lot. As long as there are morons there will be a left. pretty simple really."

Gosh and here I was thinking that this Labor government has very little to distinguish itself from it's Conservative counterparts.

Tell me what are the differences between the two tweedles on economic conservatism, free trade, globalisation, Gunn's pulp mill, plight of pensioners and corporate welfare?

The ALP does not represent the Left anymore than the Nationals represent farmers.

Pelican,
you do of course have a good point there. In my view tough the differences are not in the parties, they're in the supporters, once the left supporters get a free reign within the immoral public service everything goes wrong. The supporters of the right are made up of industry & general revenue producing sectors. That's why labor always blows the dough & the conservatives roll it & put it into the oven.

Individual
The supporters are irrelevant - once the government is elected the supporters no longer have any real power.

I work in the public service and I assure you that there are many from the Right, particularly in the senior ranks as a carry over from the Howard government. It really does not matter what political persuasion as public servants are supposed to carry out their duties in an apolitical way.

Are you really arguing that the public service is immoral? The elected Government governs the public service and determines policy not the other way around.

Public servants are easy targets and I can be critical of PS mentality, lack of transparency and accountability at times but overall it is the PS that provides, roads, hospitals, schools, a police force and other services essential to our communities. The issue is for more open and transparent government not only from our politicians but our bureaucrats.

Labor has lost a large chunck of Left supporters to the Greens.

individual your description is partisan and likely to be incorrect.

i'm sick and tired of people on the right being so partisan, ignorant and delusional. stop reading party doctrines and repeating party mantras. it's rubbish. eg.

-=-=-=-=-=
Jason Koutsoukis
July 29, 2007

THE Howard Government's reputation for "small government" is in tatters, with new figures showing a massive expansion of the public service over the past five years.

Total public service employee numbers for the 2007-08 financial year have reached 242,426 - a 28per cent increase since 2000.

Are you really arguing that the public service is immoral?
Yes, Pelican
Total public service employee numbers for the 2007-08 financial year have reached 242,426 - a 28per cent increase since 2000.
Yes Steel, that is a most unfortunate fact.