*They haven't yet - for the
majority of the Chinese population.*

Not so Foxy, things have changed dramatically for
hundreds of millions of Chinese, compared to how things
used to be. Few countries are changing faster, but
1000 million is a huge population.

Today you have consensus politics in China, the days
of Mao are long gone. For that to happen, you have all
the normal infighting between the leadership, so change
takes time. Its no different in Saudi Arabia with Abdullah,
who is a smart fellow, but to move forward and bring about
change, he has to drag a huge number of people with him.

If one person, based on personality, could make all the decisions,
things would be easy, but the poltics in these countries does
not work that way. A few old farts will have to die, before
things can proceed. So change takes time.

I am not too concerned about the Americans preaching to anyone.
Last time I was there, I was disgusted with the place. The rich
with their ever longer stretch Cadilacs, the homeless everywhere.
I have never been to a place with more openly expressed racial
hatred then the deep South.

What I compare is how a place was 10 or twenty years ago and how
it is today. Based on those parameters, China is fast moving
forwards and America is moving backwards, even if they haven't
noticed. I guess they will learn the hard way

Dear Yabby,

You've got some facts wrong.

China's population is 1.3 billion people,
not million. (a 2005 estimate).

The whole world has 6.5 billion people.

China's is 20% of the world's population, no wonder
they had no problem finding 15,000 performers.

They spent 65 billion US dollars in building the
state of the art Olympic facilities, and 300
million just to produce the opening ceremony.

It's a country of billions ruled by a few.

I can only imagine what that 65 billion
could have done for
economic development and the building of China's
infrastructure in order to better the lives of the
rest of the 1.3 billion people...but never mind ...

China's purpose in hosting this event was to show the
world that the Chinese are not as bad as the world
views them or more politically put, as an
opportunity to emerge on to the world stage.

You can argue all you want. I know how many people
feel about China selling toys to the world's
children riddled with lead, and their abysmal record on
human rights and freedom of their own people, and
the fact that the country blocks online access to
many Western news and opinion sites by grooming "Internet
police" to patrol the networks.

However, I frankly don't see the point in us discussing
this any further. I've read what you had to say.
I've got nothing more to add after this post.
I'll just be repeating things from now on.
So, I'll bow out and move on.
We can agree to disagree on this one Yabby.

cont'd

I forgot to add that we lived and worked
in the US for nine and a half years.
In Los Angeles, California.

We travelled
all over the US, Canada, and Mexico, during that period,
and my experience of the US differs
greatly from yours.

Different strokes for different folks,
I guess.

Foxy, you are correct, I did not quibble about the detailed population,
the point was about the big picture. But never mind,
if that floats your boat.

I remind you that in Australian cities there are homeless people
sleeping in the streets, yet we spent a fortune on our Olympics.
So trying to do the same to China, is a touch hypocritical it seems.

*and their abysmal record on
human rights and freedom of their own people, and
the fact that the country blocks online access to
many Western news and opinion sites*

Ah, but you make the crucial mistake of seeing the world through
your eyes, not their eyes. You grew up here, with our culture,
not there in their culture. You did not go through some of the
hard times those people went through, or learn the little Red
Book off my heart. You got life on a plate so to speak, in
comparison.

I remind you that in the early 80s, 80% of East Asian population
were living on less then a $ a day, now it is 18%. There is no
place on earth where poverty has been reduced for so many. That
is a major achievement!

China is changing and will change, the Olympics will help in all that.
Travel to and from China are increasing, communications with China
are increasing, China is slowly becoming a global citizen. The
next step will be political change, but that takes time. I give them
credit for having come a huge distance in 25 years, from when they
were literally starving. That is all positive. Unlike you I don't
seek snap crackle and pop perfection tomorrow. I try and understand
how they see things and why, through quite different eyes.

As to America, no I was not commenting on the hip areas of LA,
where expats hang out. When I travel I avoid those areas.
I go and see the real country. In places like New Orleans, there
were shootings nearly every day. There were car jackings in the
streets. Justice was some kind of a joke.

Dear Yabby,

I've taken what you've said on board.
And I respect your point of view.

As for Los Angeles, we didn't mingle
with any ex-pats. Why would we?
that's not the reason we travelled overseas.
We were too busy,
working, learning about the local culture,
and travelling ,and seeing as
much of the country as we could.
I worked in a university that was
located in a black ghetto area.
I found the entire experience to be
extremely eye-opening.

Anyway, this discussion has been
interesting.

Take care.

Dear Foxy,

Thanks for your post, but one last point...

I seem to recall some months ago, when American politics was
discussed, that you, citing your experience of America,
firmly put your money on Hillary, whilst I backed Obama.
I do know a little something about America :)