I watched the closing ceremony tonight and I must say, I was
impressed!

China has come a long way in just a few years. To think
that no so long ago, they were starving by the millions.

Anyhow, credit where credit is due and I think that the Chinese
people can be proud of the job they did for Olympics 2008.

Ok time for the nitpickers and cynics to have their say :)

.

LOL. who me? nahhh

Well indeed it was a marvellous spectacle and very much a hard act to follow for poor England. However, they are saying London will be more the party theme and not as 'serious'.
The amount of money that has gone into Beijing (44 million dollars) could well be described as obscene.
There is a lot of squallor that was hidden behind temporary 'frontages' to block off the 'eye sores'. Anyway,the Games were a success in a lot of other ways though ticketing could've been handled better to fill up venues.
Still, it will be interesting to see how London differs with the opening and the close. They don't have to match Beijing; just be Different.

spot on Yabby.

I'd love to see the wealthier nations subsidise the games in Rio or Nairobi or Cairo or Kiev.

Dear Yabby,

Of course there's no denying the spectacle
of both the opening and closing ceremonies.
They took our breath away. But, then they
were meant to.

I was listening to a journalist from Reuters
giving his account of the games and when asked
whether he thought anything will change in
China as a result, he replied, "Sadly, not at
all." And, when asked, "Will China open up
to the West?" the answer was a firm "No."

He also said how all protests had been "dealt
with." Many people were arrested and put in jails,
or worse.

What was presented to the world was a spectacle.

I googled, "Nuremberg rallies," and came across a
site that had spectacular pictures. It was
interesting to read:

"The annual Nuremberg rallies were the highpoint of
the Nazi year. Every effort was made to produce a
spectacular show not only for those attending...but
for the world as well..."

"The Nazis planned enormous construction projects for
the Nuremberg party rally grounds..." There's a photo
of Hitler standing alongside a model of the "German
Stadium."

"Albert Speer developed the "Cathedral of Light,"
for the annual evening rally of party leaders.
A multitude of searchlights pointing straight up
created a vivid spectacle. The effect showed up
for miles around Nuremberg."

There was even a photo of eager Hitler youth drummers.

Sounds familiar does it not?

The Soviet Regime also used to have the most spectacular
military parades in Red Square. Their aim was also to
impress.

Congratulations China. Great Olympics?
While being impressed, perhaps what we should
also be asking is, at what human cost?

Ah Foxy, but you make the tragic mistake that many of us
arrogant Westeners make. You look at how we think and think
that others should immediately think the same, or they are wrong.

I OTOH don't demand perfection, but appreciate change when it
does happen. Patience is a virtue dear :)

China, the Middle East, etc, all very different cultures to ours.
I remind you that it took the West hundreds of years and tens
of millions of deaths etc, to evolve into what we are today.

So I see it this way: When I was a kid, China was little different
to what North Korea is today. Look at China now! Its a huge
difference!

Yes, the old Communist party does not want to let go of absolute
power, but economically China has gone ahead in leaps and bounds.
I gather that there are now more Chinese on the internet, then
Americans. The Chinese now dress quite differently to how they
used to, in their little Mao suits, with their little red books.

So too, politics will change in China. I actually saw the
Olympics as China changing and wanting acceptance and recognition
from the rest of the world. There were clearly many Chinese who
were extremely proud of themselves and what they had done. So
I say well great!

Dear Yabby,

You said that you saw the Olympics as China
changing...

It may be for the party elite, but what about
the billion or more remaining, who have
absolutely nothing and are being exploited
and suppressed, as they always have been
by their government?

As The New York Times stated:

"Bejing got what it wanted out of this
globally televised spectacular. It reaped
a huge prestige bonanza that it will surely
use to promote its international influence and,
we fear, further tighten its grip at home.

It pocketed these gains without offering any
concessions in return...To win the right
to host these Games, China promised to honor
the Olympic ideals of nonviolence, openness
to the world and individual expression.
These promises were systematically broken,
starting with this spring's brutal repression in
Tibet and continuing on to the ugly farce of
inviting its citizens to apply for legal
protest permits and then arresting them if they
actually tried to do so.

Along the way, government critics were pre-
emptively rounded up and jailed, domestic
news outlets tightly controlled, foreign
journalists denied full access to the Internet
and thousands of Beijing's least telegenic
residents were evicted from their homes and out of
camera range.

A year ago, the IOC predicted that these Games
would be a "force for good" and a spur to
human-rights progress. Instead, as Human Rights
Watch has reported, they became a catalyst for
intensified human-rights abuse.

...World leaders must tell Beijing that its failure
to live up to its Olympic commitments will neither be
ignored nor forgotten.

The medal count and DVD sales cannot be the last
word on the Beijing Games."

Please don't patronise me Yabby. We can agree
to disagree on this one, but don't
tell me that things will
change in China. They haven't yet - for the
majority of the Chinese population.

*They haven't yet - for the
majority of the Chinese population.*

Not so Foxy, things have changed dramatically for
hundreds of millions of Chinese, compared to how things
used to be. Few countries are changing faster, but
1000 million is a huge population.

Today you have consensus politics in China, the days
of Mao are long gone. For that to happen, you have all
the normal infighting between the leadership, so change
takes time. Its no different in Saudi Arabia with Abdullah,
who is a smart fellow, but to move forward and bring about
change, he has to drag a huge number of people with him.

If one person, based on personality, could make all the decisions,
things would be easy, but the poltics in these countries does
not work that way. A few old farts will have to die, before
things can proceed. So change takes time.

I am not too concerned about the Americans preaching to anyone.
Last time I was there, I was disgusted with the place. The rich
with their ever longer stretch Cadilacs, the homeless everywhere.
I have never been to a place with more openly expressed racial
hatred then the deep South.

What I compare is how a place was 10 or twenty years ago and how
it is today. Based on those parameters, China is fast moving
forwards and America is moving backwards, even if they haven't
noticed. I guess they will learn the hard way

Dear Yabby,

You've got some facts wrong.

China's population is 1.3 billion people,
not million. (a 2005 estimate).

The whole world has 6.5 billion people.

China's is 20% of the world's population, no wonder
they had no problem finding 15,000 performers.

They spent 65 billion US dollars in building the
state of the art Olympic facilities, and 300
million just to produce the opening ceremony.

It's a country of billions ruled by a few.

I can only imagine what that 65 billion
could have done for
economic development and the building of China's
infrastructure in order to better the lives of the
rest of the 1.3 billion people...but never mind ...

China's purpose in hosting this event was to show the
world that the Chinese are not as bad as the world
views them or more politically put, as an
opportunity to emerge on to the world stage.

You can argue all you want. I know how many people
feel about China selling toys to the world's
children riddled with lead, and their abysmal record on
human rights and freedom of their own people, and
the fact that the country blocks online access to
many Western news and opinion sites by grooming "Internet
police" to patrol the networks.

However, I frankly don't see the point in us discussing
this any further. I've read what you had to say.
I've got nothing more to add after this post.
I'll just be repeating things from now on.
So, I'll bow out and move on.
We can agree to disagree on this one Yabby.

cont'd

I forgot to add that we lived and worked
in the US for nine and a half years.
In Los Angeles, California.

We travelled
all over the US, Canada, and Mexico, during that period,
and my experience of the US differs
greatly from yours.

Different strokes for different folks,
I guess.

Foxy, you are correct, I did not quibble about the detailed population,
the point was about the big picture. But never mind,
if that floats your boat.

I remind you that in Australian cities there are homeless people
sleeping in the streets, yet we spent a fortune on our Olympics.
So trying to do the same to China, is a touch hypocritical it seems.

*and their abysmal record on
human rights and freedom of their own people, and
the fact that the country blocks online access to
many Western news and opinion sites*

Ah, but you make the crucial mistake of seeing the world through
your eyes, not their eyes. You grew up here, with our culture,
not there in their culture. You did not go through some of the
hard times those people went through, or learn the little Red
Book off my heart. You got life on a plate so to speak, in
comparison.

I remind you that in the early 80s, 80% of East Asian population
were living on less then a $ a day, now it is 18%. There is no
place on earth where poverty has been reduced for so many. That
is a major achievement!

China is changing and will change, the Olympics will help in all that.
Travel to and from China are increasing, communications with China
are increasing, China is slowly becoming a global citizen. The
next step will be political change, but that takes time. I give them
credit for having come a huge distance in 25 years, from when they
were literally starving. That is all positive. Unlike you I don't
seek snap crackle and pop perfection tomorrow. I try and understand
how they see things and why, through quite different eyes.

As to America, no I was not commenting on the hip areas of LA,
where expats hang out. When I travel I avoid those areas.
I go and see the real country. In places like New Orleans, there
were shootings nearly every day. There were car jackings in the
streets. Justice was some kind of a joke.

Dear Yabby,

I've taken what you've said on board.
And I respect your point of view.

As for Los Angeles, we didn't mingle
with any ex-pats. Why would we?
that's not the reason we travelled overseas.
We were too busy,
working, learning about the local culture,
and travelling ,and seeing as
much of the country as we could.
I worked in a university that was
located in a black ghetto area.
I found the entire experience to be
extremely eye-opening.

Anyway, this discussion has been
interesting.

Take care.

Dear Foxy,

Thanks for your post, but one last point...

I seem to recall some months ago, when American politics was
discussed, that you, citing your experience of America,
firmly put your money on Hillary, whilst I backed Obama.
I do know a little something about America :)

Dear Yabby,

I didn't mean to infer that you knew
nothing about America. Only that
our experiences differed.

Yes, I did back Hilary.

And I congratulate you Yabs, on your
choice.

Barack Obama is a great candidate.
I simply thought the majority of Americans
weren't ready yet, to have a black man as
their President.

Perhaps they now are.

We'll see.

It will be a close race,
as it was with John Kennedy and
Richard Nixon. That's what makes
American politics so interesting.
"It ain't over till ..."

Foxy

I was absolutely gobsmacked to read your comments on this thread: on other subjects you strive to be balanced or at least to admit that you have - like all of us - a lot to learn and may need to do some further research. Yet on this thread, while allowing that you and Yabby have different ideas, you come across as some sort of authority and firmly reject an alternative view.

You correctly give the population as 1.3billion - then claim only the "elite" benefit leaving "billions" to suffer etc..."as they have always done". This logically means .3 of the population only has any quality of life, does it not? For the rest (I'll ignore the pluralisation of the word billion as a typing error)its all suffering as usual?

C'mon girl, common sense would tell you that with all the advances in education, medicine, women's position, wages, living conditions etc. this statement cannot possibly be true. There have been articles, personal accounts, experiences and posts recounted even here on OLO which give a broader picture. Haven't you even read, or taken on board, a single one of them? How could you describe a population which is now the worlds second largest consumer of luxury goods as being the same (I'm referring to the "as usual" tag) as one who, twenty years ago, didn't have enough to eat, lived in squalour, had no quality of life....or do you think its only that .3 percent who is benefitting? They'd have to be not just elite but mega-rich to account for all that consumerism!

Propaganda is a tool of media everywhere and your post, unlike Yabby's, seems to suggest that you have been sucked in good and proper. As I said, I'm gobsmacked. You are usually so much better than that.

Dear Romany,

Me an authority on China?

Not true.

I apologise if that's the way
I came across.

I haven't been influenced by the "media spin"
on China as you infer.

What I have been influenced by,
have been news reports from journalists in Beijing,
and accounts of what they saw and experienced.

Have you read the book, "Bitter Winds," by Harry Wu
and Carolyn Wakeman? Perhaps you should.

You may then understand where I'm coming from.

As for your being gobsmacked over my take on this.
That's unfortunate for me. Because at no time did I
denigrate anything Yabby said. At least I didn't
mean to.
I merely did not share his opinion.
However,I did say, I respected it.

If, disagreeing with someone means
I'm not being being "balanced,"
in my point of view.
I guess that's something
I'll have to live with.

Foxy - "If, disagreeing with someone means I'm not being being "balanced," in my point of view..." No, of course your disagreement with Yabby's words have nothing to do with balance - I was in fact referring to your own post. Your response to him was as the rational adult we all know you to be so it never entered my head (nor, I'm pretty sure, anyone else's) that by disagreeing with him you would be denigrating him.

And the reason I was gobsmacked (very surprised) was exactly as I stated (though obviously I didn't make it clear): - there has been quite a bit of talk from ordinary folk even here on OLO over the last few months detailing changes, misconceptions, progress etc. which give food for (alternative) thought. While journalists - often sent on a brief mission to help sell papers and earn their salary - can often misrepresent things.

So my surprise was that you were less willing to consider what people who have no axe to grind say than those to whom sensationalism and agenda are tools of the trade. And the reason I was surprised is, I would have thought, rather complimentary than otherwise? Had you been one of those people who set their ideas in stone according to prevailing opinion I would not have batted an eyelid.

The quote you gave was from an American paper and, even though CNN, Fox and other outlets did apologise for the way in which they misreported the Llahsa incident it is still referred to it as though the doctored photos and actual furphies never happened. That's why I spoke about being influenced by the propaganda of media.

I'm not a Sinophile but I do strongly believe that two sides of any story - whether it be concerning the war in Iraq, women's positions in the world, capital punishment or life in modern China - should be given equal attention.

Every post I've read of yours has led me to believe you felt the same way.

Dear Romany,

I'd like to think that my perceptions
are not set in stone.

As I've written in other posts, I'm constantly
learning, and hopefully will continue to do
so until the day I die.

However, in the case of China, I'll keep a watch
on future developments, and let you know what I
think further down the track. (If we're still
communicating in cyberspace at the time).

I will be honest with you, and admit that perhaps
my view in this case is being influenced greatly because
of what my family suffered under the totalitarian
Soviet regime, from which they ran during WWII.

Anyway, Thanks for caring enough Romany
about what I think.

I've taken what you've said on board.

Take care,