Is there a gang associated with Stern? I seem to have some recollection that there should be. Or is this the Oldtimer's disease kicking in? I'm (almost) sure there was a Stern Gang that had something to do with establishing unpopular truths....or was it popular untruths? Damn! You can get so confused with this Oldtimer's disease! Don't think it had anything to do with boats. Was it something to do with the heads? The heads! That's it! Terrorism. A bomb in a toilet. That's where you'd be if you got caught with your political pants down!

Bazz - Firstly, two comments on your critique of wind & solar power in a centralised energy grid.

a) Australian capital cities have nowhere near "15% of unreliable supply connected to the grid" (Tasmania excluded) - perhaps we should try to at least get to that point before we worry about going further.

b) You've talked about supply side issues, which I agree with, however you haven't mentioned any possibility of demand management. Technology similar to that used by fridges to order milk via the internet, etc. could also be used to base energy usage on price, therefore decreasing use during peak periods & helping to align demand to supply. Of course, this technology isn't available at your local electrical goods retailer yet....

so...I agree that a decentralised grid is the best & most efficient option. In terms of the availability of materials, it is true that there is a limited global supply of silicon that can be used in photovoltaic cells. Research into alternatives to silicon is in its infancy.

I don't think this means we should give up on the idea altogether. Obviously, this would not be something that happened overnight, but over years or decades. Increased government funding into research in this area is vital.

In terms of availability of technicians, perhaps all those previously employed by the fossil fuel industries could be retrained....

Two extremely important elements at this stage are increased government action on climate change & an optimistic attitude!

Some good points there Viktor;

>a) Australian capital cities have nowhere near "15% of unreliable >supply connected to the grid"

Yes I agree, but many people do not know that there is a limit.

>b) You've talked about supply side issues, which I agree with, >however you haven't mentioned any possibility of demand management.

Yes I am very aware that the supply authorities are looking at using
BPL (Broadband Power Line) to do that job despite all the problems and disadvantages involved with BPL.

>In terms of availability of technicians, perhaps all those previously >employed by the fossil fuel industries could be retrained....

Just think about it, a mine might employ 500 miners (not sure),
a power station perhaps 20 or 30 a shift. Pehaps a total industry
population of 20,000 of which probably 18,000 would have to be
retrained into electronics. Where are the Tafes & instructors.
How many homes and factories in Sydney, must be close to two million.
Presuming all those miners were able or willing to be retrained
how long would it take to install 2,0000 wind, solar and battery systems.
Don't forget some of these systems would be very large, eg
hospitals, factories etc etc.
They would need capacities much greater than older telephone exchanges
had and they had teams just to look after the batteries.
However as they work on it, some are being continually being peeled
off to do maintenance and fault finding on the ones that have been
installed.
So now they are finished in Sydney, they can now start on Newcastle or Melbourne.
It is the sheer efficiency people wise that makes our grid system sucessful.
I just can't see us getting enough people organised to do such a
mamoth task.
It is a typical Peak Oil/Global warming cath 22.

>Two extremely important elements at this stage are increased >government action on climate change & an optimistic attitude!

Fix Peak Oil and I think global warming will look after itself.

>Posted by Viktor, Friday, 3 November 2006 1:05:23 PM
Baz

Bazz

The same fears abounded when we computerised everything and everyone had to be retrained. Many feared they would be out of a job. It hasn't happened.

Solar hydrogen does not need to extract hydrogen from fossil fuels as is the current practice.

UNSW scientists advise that the catalyst for solar hydrogen is titanium oxide of which there is an abundance - more jobs!

The UNSW also advise that to connect solar hydrogen energy to 1.5 million homes will supply all the nation's energy requirements!

And maintenance of a solar hydrogen system is minimal.

We've had many black outs in my region!

The fossil fuel industry will not grind to a halt but rather there would be a phasing out of this industry with emphasis on a mandatory requirement to install pollution prevention control to immediately reduce emissions! People before profits! There are ample profits to enable polluters and governments to become more responsible!

The more delay, the more health and environmental damage.

Governments need to consider the potential of solar hydrogen technology and increase funding to expedite the results - pronto!

In the long run solar hydrogen energy will be far cheaper than the oil wars, the exorbitant health expenditure on diseases caused by fossil fuel emissions and the cost of attempting to restore an irreparably damaged environment.

The US government has committed 1.2 billion dollars to mitigating climate change and the Californian government, 3.2 billion dollars towards solar and renewable energy and so on. And BHP Billiton are contributing funding towards UNSW's solar hydrogen project.

I seem to recall that UNSW are looking for an additional, measly ten million dollars!

Could the Minister for the Environment advise me why they are ignoring this project? Oh I get it - heaps of revenue from the fossil fuel industry therefore, the status quo remains!

Dickie; So far the Energy Returned on Energy Invested (EROEI) is not
very good. There are other problems with hydrogen. It is corosive and
rather expensive tanks have to be used to hold it.
Unless hydrogen is compressed, which makes the EROEI worse by a
significant amount. If it is to be used for transport then it has to be
transported to service points. These will require about 10 times the
the number of tankers than we now have for petrol tankers.
Vehicles would need tanks about the size of the noot of present cars.
Fuel cells with fed with hydrogen have a rather poor EROEI if you look
at it from solar cell to wheels.

The distributed network fueled from solar hydrogen and fuel cells to
electricity is probably the best bet if the fuel cells can be significantly improved.
The hydrogen could be used in stoves and ovens but they could be
dangerous as hydrogen flame is invisible.
There is a web site that talks about the hydrogen fallacy.
There are stacks of catch 22s with hydrogen.

I don’t know if John Howard has lost his pants , but I do know that someone better flush the toilet after reading such fraudulant and pseudo scientific garbage ; In reality , Toilet paper is all it is good for. It is testimonial to the total depravity and ineptitude now burdening us; That pile of Steaming regurgitated crap does more damage to the world of epistemology and ethics than any Mythical Green house effect or what ever mankind could ever conger up in a Physical Dimension.
In fact I would say it is 40% more virile than that other steaming pile of Kyoto Protocol post modern sewerage for fact dung.
The more frightening thing is that the accumulative effect of depraved morons far out number rational thinking and reality based scientific Hypothesis and minds in favor of pseudo Philosophical delusions;
Is this the new age Idiot Islamic Primititivism Effect model? Or is it just a whole lot of Useless idiots and witch Doctors looting the system? I would say it is both.
The greater crime is that that such a report could actually be thought up, let alone published, but thats how far into the abyss we have been shoved, and the philosophy of "Dont let a good lie get in the way of truth". Or the dosile Idiot effect of Twilight zoned Mystique Paredigm .