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The Forum > General Discussion > Does John Howard's $90M for School Chaplaincy amount to Establishment of Religion?

Does John Howard's $90M for School Chaplaincy amount to Establishment of Religion?

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To answer the question raised.....'yes/ and no'.

"Religion"... is certainly supported by this funding. "A" religion is not.

In the hisorical context of the Constitution, it is quite clear that the 'meaning' of 'religion' was in fact 'denomination' as in.. Christian this or that, but not "Christianity or Buddhism or Islam".

Due to the large numbers of Catholic Irish and Anglican/Protestant English, clearly to promote one over the other would be a time bomb.

But what we have here, is a promotion of religion in general, and it is not limited to just Christian traditions, it is also for Muslims.

Lets keep in mind, a school chaplain does not 'instruct' children to follow this or that belief as much as discuss and provide counselling, and perhaps even (shock horror) suggest that life actually does have meaning..and that God does care about them.
Such help should also inform children that God is not our servant to run at our beck and call. He is not the Tooth Fairy.

No matter what humanists or atheists feel about this... it will all come out in the wash at the next ELECTION and they, along with the religiously inclined can vote according to their reaction to this issue if they like. Its called 'Democracy' :) and I'm liking it more each day at the moment.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 30 October 2006 7:28:53 PM
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Steve Madden,

You mean there's a cut-out level below which certain schools will not be used as channels for funding clergy and para-clerical 'counsellors'? What's the formula and who stands to benefit most/least? Or have you simply worked in the light of your knowledge of the total number of schools (9623) and the size of the 'grant' ($20,000) to assess that $90M will only go so far? I must admit I was not aware of these qualifications, and simply raised the issue because of the principle involved and the prospect that Constitutional provisions appear to stand in prospect of being ignored. Now that you mention it, there would have to be some way of effectively coralling the bulk of the funds for the main players, wouldn't there? It always seems to work out this way.

As I ponder your post, I ask myself, what about the existing religious schools: do any of them get to effectively double-dip with this proposal? Or is it intended that the scheme will be quietly extended to them later, out of 'fairness', thereby keeping public indignation down with respect to the amount of funds appearing to be committed, but all the time knowing that the eventual committment will be significantly greater?

I am also becoming uneasy about something I read recently in another context that, at least in NSW, there was intended to be introduced compulsory counselling for school children in certain circumstances. If true, combined this would be an extremely worrying development. All the more reason this funding should not occur.

Noted your posts on the euthanasia thread; I can see why you weren't excited about rowing! Best wishes, mate. And it looks from their website that Laucke add nothing to their breadmixes as a matter of long established principle, much like German beer.
Posted by Forrest Gumpp, Monday, 30 October 2006 7:37:25 PM
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@runner
"If people were not concerned about the godless values taught over the last 20 years that have resulted in increases in teen pregnancy, abortion and suicide then this issue would not be a vote winner"

Holland has an extremely low rate of teenage pregnancy and abortion compared with the puritanically Christian US and the theoretically secular Australia.

http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/apprend2.htm

"With the lowest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe (8.4 per 1,000 girls between 15 and 19), any initiative in the Netherlands deserves attention.

To some critics who argue that 'talking about sex gives children the wrong idea,' Jos Poelman of the Foundation for STD control has one answer. 'Face the facts. We have the lowest number of teenage mothers [in Europe], and Dutch students do not start having sex at a younger age than their foreign counterparts.'"

In Holland, accurate sex education is given to young people, together with availabilty of contraception and the message that they need to use responsibility. This education is given without falling back on religious morality and this approach works. I suggest that we don't have this approach in Australia because of unwarranted religious interference in education and we pay the price with too many unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

Regarding teen suicides:

http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/hansard/hans35.nsf/451a59fb51257dd248256c85002bc738/6d5df7e9483e211f482565fd0013113a?OpenDocument

"by the age of 13 years most homosexual youth are aware of their attraction to same sex partners;
by the age of 14 years, most lesbians are aware of their attraction to same sex partners;
25 to 40 per cent of young gays and lesbians attempt to commit suicide;
65 to 85 per cent of young gays and lesbians feel suicidal;"

So do they also need counsellors who may be telling them that they are sinners in the eyes of God?

In regard to evolution, I went to a very Christian school, with a full-time ordained religious subject teacher and I wasn't taught this stuff:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp

And whatever brand of [presumably] Christian you are, would you want your kids counselled by someone with very different Christian or other religious beliefs? Because that's what you may very well get.
Posted by Rex, Monday, 30 October 2006 7:38:41 PM
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I think that part of the constitution has already been well and truly breached with the funding of private religious shools which have stated aims of bringing children to particular faiths.

What is possibly a bigger concern is the quality of counselling provided by enthusiastic amateurs. Will they have the skills and impartiality to respond appropriately when and if a child shares serious issues with them which should be dealt with by a skilled professional but which in their church are dealt with by prayer and seeking god?

Will they know and respect their own limitations?

When I seek medical treatement for myself or my son I seek out a properly qualified professional, I don't allow my child to pick a doctor himself and just use them. How can I prevent some person who has done a weekend counselling course through their church having access to my son in the school environment?

How liable for their mistakes will they be?

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 30 October 2006 7:40:15 PM
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What rot. The money would be better spent on extending existing counselling services, rather than chasing the religious vote so obviously.

With respect to democracy, this is issue exemplifies perfectly why it is that we need proportional representation in the House of Representatives. That would have the dual positive effect of being more representative and also harder for the dog whistlers to get any traction electorally.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 30 October 2006 7:45:09 PM
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More counselling services CJMorgan? I don't think the Dept of Education will have enough light bulbs for them contemplate change.The State is a poor substitute for a caring family.
Posted by Arjay, Monday, 30 October 2006 8:15:33 PM
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