Our Prime Minister is currently travelling
around the Asia-Pacific region, including Indonesia,
in an attempt to bring about mutual understanding
and greater economic benefits between us and these
countries.

Australians have always come to the aid of these
countries financially, in times of crisis. Our
people's generousity during the tsunami tragedy
helped many in the region. And this will continue
to be the case in the future.

I watched the Prime Minister on the news last night
being welcomed in Indonesia... and my thoughts turned
to Schapelle Corby, and the other young people currently
rotting in Indonesian jails for drug smuggling.

This thread is not about their guilt or innocence - its
about the severity of their sentences. According to
Australian legislation - they would now be free - having
served their time. Drug offences in this country - are
not punishable by either death, or 20 year sentences.
They are considered minor infringements.

Can't our Prime Minister negotiate a deal with Indonesia -
to bring these young people home - to finish their sentences
in Australia? A case could surely be made during this
opportune time in negotiations - between Australia and
Indonesia - to see that Australian citizens don't continue
to rot in Indonesian jails for minor drug offences.

Your thoughts please?

Foxy I agree that Rudd should be doing everything in his power to bring Shapelle Corby home. As for the others, I’m not so sure. But he should certainly be lobbying for considerably less harsh sentences.

Australia would then presumably to be open to the same sort of requests from Indonesia. But I can’t see why that would be a problem.

I think the case for bringing Corby home needs to be kept quite separate from the Bali Nine, as her guilt is very much in doubt, whereas they appear to be incontrovertibly guilty.

She did the Crime in Indonesia, she should do the time in Indonesia.

She is where she is through her own greed and stupidity, although some of that stupidity might well be genetic, if her father is any indicator.

I see no merit in anyone bothering to defend this drug peddling skank.

Dear Col,

That's a tad harsh.

Would you still feel the same way if this
was your daughter or grandchild or member
of your family?

Remember, some fo the Bali bombers
have already been released.
It seems the country serves up a
double standard when it comes to the
dispensation of justice - especially to
their own people.

I don't have much time for Corby in her role as an ambassador for Australia's moron bogan underclass, but surely there's some sympathy for someone so irredeemably stupid that she thought there was a profit in sneaking pot IN to Indonesia.

We should bring her home and strap a Stackhat permanently to her head to protect the poor darling from herself.

"Would you still feel the same way if this
was your daughter or grandchild or member
of your family"

Two points

If one of my daughters were to do something so criminal as to traffic in drugs, she could consider herself no longer one of my daughters.

However, that is purely hypothetical. Neither of my daughters would consider dealing drugs. They feel very similar as me.

In fact, the elder one used to tell her mother how her mother was jeopardising her health through smoking in the housing and exposing her to the dangers of passive smoking.

I have had several personal experiences of the worst possible outcomes from illicit drugs which evolve around people dying who I knew, including one recently who was slashed to death with a kitchen knife by a someone with marujiana induced schizephenia.

I have no sympathy for drug dealers, the only thing I would see done differently with Corby is to put her on death row, if she had committed a previous drug trafficking offence.

Col, surely you have got to have absolute confidence in Corby's guilt before you can say that you have no sympathy for her.

By all indications, there are enormous holes in the veracity of the case against her and in the Indonesian legal system.

Secondly, even if she is as guilty as sin, she doesn’t deserve a sentence anywhere near as harsh as she is getting….surely.

I bet that if one of your daughters did slip into some sort of drug-related criminal activity and got busted big-time, you wouldn’t for a moment think of disowning her. You’d put every effort into her rehabilitation…wouldn’t you?

I agree that the sentences are far too heavy. The "Drug War" is wrong and the immense government police apparatus that feeds off of it is robbing us blind. I think that the community can be better protected through education and other means, just like smoking and alcohol, especially if you could do a rapid test to determine whether someone is abusing drugs at a particular moment like breathalysing tests for alcohol.

Ludwig “I bet that if one of your daughters did slip into some sort of drug-related criminal activity and got busted big-time, you wouldn’t for a moment think of disowning her. You’d put every effort into her rehabilitation…wouldn’t you?”

No

This is close to home Ludwig.

I am not talking theory or hypothetical’s

Someone close to me has a son who she is about to kick out of her home because she can no longer risk his presence.

He has a heavy marijuana and drinking habit, no job and worst of all, an expectation that he is entitled to her support because she gave birth to him. When he was still at school he started growing dope, an action which, because of the nature of her work, could have seen her lose her job if he had been caught.

The main reason for her wanting him out now is simple – when he is around and drinking, he goes into rages and rants and kicking holes in doors and walls, she does not feel physically safe and has already called the police a couple of times.

The reason she has indulged him thus far is because he has burnt every other friendship is has, in the past year or so.

I will not regale you with the efforts she has made to help him and the $000 s it has cost her in supporting his thankless attitude.

The difference between she and me – none, except I might act sooner than she but it comes down to a personal call.

That is not all of the saga, only half of it. Her other son was stabbed to death by a dope induced schizophrenic.

I have used marijuana in the on 3 occasions in distant past (adolescent experiments) I used to smoke cigarettes and I happily drink very lightly.

I am no purist of nae-sayer but I saw the consequences 30 years ago when one of my friends died from an OD.

And yet there are thousands of marijuana smokers and drinkers in Australia who have no problem. You're letting your emotions and personal concern for the mother cloud your judgement, Col Rouge.

I agree laws are made for a reason.
But in Indonesia, it seems there is
one set for the locals, and another
for foreigners.
That's why I mentioned the Bali bombers
as an example.

Even within our own justice system,
there are loopholes that judges and lawyers
seem to find. Not every guilty person ends
up in jail, as we've seen from some recent cases.

I suppose that's why Justice
wears a blindfold.

Col Rouge: "marujiana induced schizephenia."

LOL. Good old hysterical Col.
Always looking for a bogeyman.

Off you go and have at that Scotch,
matey.

Steel “You're letting your emotions and personal concern for the mother cloud your judgement, Col Rouge.”

And you are making armchair judgments of me based on completely insufficient data, how really average of you.

I will endeavour not to do the same to you.

Antiseptic “LOL. Good old hysterical Col.
Always looking for a bogeyman.”

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2007/09/11/6764_news.html
“suffered from drug-induced psychosis and chronic paranoid schizophrenia”

Her drug of choice was marijuana which, according to her parents she took excessively over a school excursion when she was away from their care for a week. One of the earlier consequences of her drug induced problems was to tear her parents marriage apart. Her father, to his credit, spent two years trying to get her committed.

I could say more but choose not to.

Now I suggest you take your “hysteria” and stick it up your scotch bottle.

Or would you like me to shoo away your the flying green elephants of yor dreams for you too, septic?

Col Rouge: "http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2007/09/11/6764_news.html"

From the article:"Ms Penrose, who has a history of mental illness was also undergoing psychiatric treatment at the time"

Have another Scotch, mate, it's bound to make you feel better.

Judy

Yes, in order to secure the return of Corby, we may well have to accept the return of an Indonesian that has committed a heinous crime in Australia. If that has to be part of the deal, well so be it. If it can be limited to a one-for-one arrangement, with the first offender getting the benefit of the deal, then I could live with it. If SBY (Yudhoyono) insists that it should be an ongoing arrangement of all offenders being returned, then it would be a bit more difficult to accept.

But firstly Rudd should be pushing for Corby’s release on the grounds that her guilt is very much in doubt, as a special one-off event. Perhaps it could be requested as a returned favour for the billion dollars promised by Howard for tsunami victims. He could emphasise just how much publicity Corby has received in Australia and how much support she has in the general community, and that any such favour would resonate very strongly throughout the Australian public.

Ludwig: "her guilt is very much in doubt"

How do you figure that? She owned the boogey board, she was carrying it through customs, it weighed 4.5kg more than it should have and had a bulge where it shouldn't have. Who the hell was responsible if she wasn't?

What everyone has to realize is that when in another country, we are subject to their laws and their interpretation of them. Whether we agree or not and whether or not we think they are fair.

I understand it was not the first time Corby had been to Bali and that there are signs at the arrivals section telling about the importation of drugs and the serious penalties. This being so, it is not as though she was ignorant.

She has been found guilty and pay the penalty imposed. I don't think our Government should run around and rescue stupid citizens from their own stupidity.

I do not think there is much doubt about her guilt. The drugs were in her bag. The plastic bag that the drugs were in was chosen to fit her bag. No one would try to smuggle drugs by air from Brisbane to Sydney when one can easily take them by road or send by legitimate transport. Stupid people do stupid things and Corby is a classic object lesson.

Banjo,

“I understand it was not the first time Corby had been to Bali and that there are signs at the arrivals section telling about the importation of drugs and the serious penalties.”

Yes. She was aware of the penalties directly pertaining to aerial importation of narcotics into Indonesia. So it would have been extremely stupid to try and smuggle such a large package, that was so poorly hidden, into the country. Does Shapelle Corby really strike you as being that dumb?

Antiseptic,

“…it weighed 4.5kg more than it should have and had a bulge where it shouldn't have…”

Yes. And don’t you think that a person who had been through that customs route before and who had any intentions of smuggling drugs would have known that they’d be instantly busted for this?

But a person who is entirely innocent and who doesn’t for one moment suspect that there is anything wrong with their luggage, wouldn’t have noticed the extra weight or the apparent small bulge.

No one knows for sure if she knew it was in the boogie board pack but the point is that we Australians do not wish any of our citizens to suffer "cruel and unusual" punishment in jails in which you might die of neglect, disease and malnutrition long before your excessively long sentence is completed. Also, a death sentence for being a mule is out of order. Get them all back here.

Ludwig: "a person who is entirely innocent and who doesn’t for one moment suspect that there is anything wrong with their luggage, wouldn’t have noticed the extra weight or the apparent small bulge."

It wasn't a "small" bulge and it would have increased the weight by perhaps a third.

You didn't answer my question: who was responsible if she wasn't?

This is the best article I have ever read on the Corby fiasco..

[url]http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,15470184-25717,00.html[/url]

Dear Antiseptic,

You asked, "Who was responsible, if she wasn't?"

Obviously, the person who put it there.
And you've got a wide choice, from any of her
family members, to any of their friends, to air-port
baggage handlers.

Only the guilty person knows. It may even be Schapelle
herself.

But while the doubt exists - and it does, as to her guilt,
the sentence imposed on her is far to severe.

The Australian Government should at least try to negotiate in
bringing her home. She can serve the rest of her sentence
in Australia. Leaving her to rot in Indonesia is simply
not serving any kind of justice - considering the corrupt double-standard system, under whose laws she was tried.

Bleeding hearts for convicted drug traffickers....

The only doubt in Corby's case was created by Today Tonight and its mirrored tripe on Nine. Even more so since the laywer came out and said he made up the 'baggage handling' rubbish.

No one would choose a fate like that, but they practically did by knowingly importing drugs (ESPECIALLY the 'nine') into a nation renowned for executing people.

Bring them home?.....why?. They did the crime over there. They SHOULD be recharged when they get back and serve out another sentence here.

If it was my daughter? (or whatever), obviously I'd be doing everything I could to get her back. Doesn't change the facts, or the reality though.

well at last I get to post this response. first i woz brickwalled this mornin by the 4-in-24-hours-on-one-general-thread rule and then i wuz snotted by the 10-in-24-hours-on-general-threads rule this evenin. pffff. (oh whinge whinge Ludnuts)

^^^^

“…who was responsible if she wasn't?”

Wouldn’t we all love to know, Antiseptic.

The dope bag was destroyed without being fingerprinted. As Corby’s father said, if it had been fingerprinted, they would not have found her prints on it… and may well have found those of the culprit.

How could the Indonesian police stuff up so profoundly as to have allowed this to happen?

What does it say about the state of law enforcement and the legal system in Indonesia? What about the basic principle of law that someone has to be proven guilty or found to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt before they can be convicted?

How could Corby possibly have been found guilty without this crucial piece of evidence having been properly examined, and without anything else pointing convincingly to her guilt?

How could the whole deal be based entirely on the fact that the stuff was in her boogie board bag…. a bag that could have easily been opened and tampered with by a whole bunch of people?

Did the whole Indonesian case turn into a charade of trying to cover up the police ineptitude at not fingerprinting the bag, in an attempt to avoid chronic national embarrassment for such a blunder? Was the psychology then one of; ‘this girl MUST be convicted or else we’ll [the Indonesian authorities] all look like complete fools’?

Further to my last last post....

So many crucial questions.

SO MUCH fundamental doubt about her guilt!

The Indonesian courts didn't have any doubts Ludwig. That's all that matters.

I wonder why 'Australia' is SO concerned with the welfare of this chick?. Why aren't they just as concerned for others that are locked up there. There are a few asian Australians locked up there at the mo but you don't hear a peep outta anyone. You only hear about white Australians there.

Hotels rooms, beauty spa's and day trips for a convicted trafficker. Tough gig that. She's lucky she didn't try it in Burma.

Keeping Shaps there serves as a good reminder to others not to stuff around & do drugs, & to show some respect for the laws of other countries. And bending the laws for "white" people sucks. I thought lefties, of all people, would appreciate that point. Clearly not. To them, David Hicks & Shaps are white and therefore, more save-worthy.

StG, love that point about the Asian Aussies gone-but-not-missed by the bleeding hearts.

But I cringe to think of the money she will make when she's free to sell her story to 60 minutes & the longer she's there, the more her cult-hero status (among the white left at any rate) will rise.

Ludwig: "So many crucial questions.

SO MUCH fundamental doubt about her guilt!"

Not according to this bloke : http://www.theage.com.au/national/convicted-drug-dealer-tells-of-corby-smuggling-racket-20080712-3e6h.html

A quote from the article: "Malcolm McCauley says he and Corby's late father, Mick, were involved in a long-standing drug-running racket in which he supplied the marijuana and Mick organised for it to be smuggled into Bali, accompanied by $US1000 in cash to bribe Indonesian customs officials.

He says Schapelle knew all about the trafficking, and, while he doesn't know if she put the drugs in her boogie board bag she certainly knew about her father's drug-smuggling racket.

"The truth is, she always knew her Dad was a drug dealer. She knew about the trips to Bali, she knew about the system, the bribes. She knew the lot," the Adelaide-based McCauley claims."

Still have doubts? This bloke is not just making allegations, he's confessing to being part of it. Either he's telling the truth or he's mad...

She has said she does not want to serve her time in Australia.
Our prisons do not allow some of the freedoms she has now.
The guilt?
We must understand she looks very guilty, her family has much form.
At the airport, on the day she was arrested asked why she was there she answered this way.
I am here because I love my father.
I think it was clear then who owned the drugs, her father was fighting against his cancer, but she must have known surely?
We can not avoid the evidence of family convictions involving drugs.
Yes it is a long sentence , and yes the Bali nine should not die for their crimes.
But have you been to Bali?
Tourists seem to believe they can do what they want, that separate laws exist for some of them.
Indonesia is not trying to hurt Westerners the crime brings death to many of their own too.

I'd like to Thank You all for contributing
so openly and honestly to this thread.
Opinions are many and varied.
It is a controversial case.
And many of us will never agree.

I've been scrawling through various sites on
the web and the facts that arise out of this
case are as follows:

Most of the people currently held in Indonesian
jails are foreigners who in addition to their
jail sentences are also required to pay heavy
fines.

In Corby's appeal documents there were many claims
made by her lawyers of the mistakes and discrepancies
by the judges who convicted her.

Her lawyers argued that the prosecution could only
prove that Corby was in possession of the drugs,
not that she was importing them. The judges did not
distinguish between importing, owning and using
marijuana. She should be acquitted.

The lawyers also argued that the sentence was too harsh
compared with punishments handed down for similar
offences elsewhere in Indonesia.

Corby has no past record of drug smuggling. What her
father did or did not do - should not be her problem.
Sins of the father
should not be transferable onto the child.
Because the entire legality of the case is in question,
Australia is within its rights to plead for clemency on
Corby's behalf.

In any other civilized country - this
case would have been thrown out of court a long time
ago.

Yeah but Foxy, you're trying to find something comparable in the Indonesian 'judicial' system and 'western' justice. Two different things, completely. Dunno about you, but I'd be totally anal about my bags if I went somewhere like that.

The fact is, no one knows the truth about her guilt other than the person who put the pot in there.

Antiseptic “From the article:"Ms Penrose, who has a history of mental illness was also undergoing psychiatric treatment at the time"

Have another Scotch, mate, it's bound to make you feel better.”

Yes her “history of mental illness” commenced at age 15 when on a school trip and during which she imbibed heavily in marijuana.

Ask yourself this, Antiseptic, whilst I may post snippets about this particular case, why should I pick such a case and maybe, just maybe, I could tell more about such a case than I care to produce here.

Now, before your comment any more on my drinking habits, trust me, I do not like scotch and never drink it, I guess we will mark that down as just another pathetic failing in your perceptive abilities.

I guess your sort of knee-jerk judgments, founded in ignorance and an excusive attitude aplenty, might be the results of an unjustified presumption to your authority but reality is, such delusions are common place among the lower intellects.

Before you bother to debate any point with me in future, I suggest you do some primary research and then you will look less of the ignorant, judgmental moron than you are aspiring to be at the present.

As for Corby and her apologists, she has got away with drug peddling lightly, I hope she dies in prison, either from a painful, disfiguring disease or at her own miserable hand, which would be the best thing she has ever done for anyone else.

Well Col, earlier on you wrote that if your daughters were involved with drugs, they would then not be your daughters. Now you're wishing death and disfigurement upon Schapelle Corby. At least we now have on public record that (1) you're a rotten father and (2) you're infused with such hate that you'd wish death and disfigurement for someone's alleged involvement with marijuana.

She was convicted in what was basically a show trial NOT for murder, rape, kidnapping, terrorism or involvement with the deadly hard drugs. She was allegedly importing MARIJUANA for Christ's sake.....MARIJUANA. Do you even understand what marijuana is? Probably not.

EVERY time you drive around your town you'd pass drug dealers and profiteers every few minutes, pushing their drugs that are equally as harmful as marijuana will EVER be. THOUSANDS of addicts die EVERY year because they use these extremely dangerous drugs......alcohol and tobacco; plus thousands of people have been imprisoned from behavourial consequences from their alcohol addiction.

Marijuana, alchol, tobacco: The ONLY difference is that 2 are legal and one is illegal.

You, in your sublime, blind and rigidly conservative ignorance place Schapelle Corby with the worst of the worst criminals. You are so "bent" in your views that you deserve only mockery.

"If" she is guilty, she needs to do the time, as it was an illegal act....... "BUT" we can do without the ignorance, crass stupidity and pathetic inhumanity displayed in your backward posts about Schapelle Corby.

Any father who'd disown his daughters for drug involvement is simply a lousy, rotten father. Anyone who'd wish death and disfigurement upon someone for involvement with importing marijuana is beneath contempt. And you sir, are beneath contempt.

Dear Col,

I am sorry that you feel the way you do.
And even sorrier that you chose to vent your
spleen so openly on a public Forum such as this.

Obviously, your bad experiences with drug victims,
in the past has tainted your perceptions
regarding this
subject matter. That's very sad, but understandable.

However, I still don't believe that you would turn your back
on any child of yours, regardless of what they may
do. You don't sound like a father that could be so
unforgiving.

Anyway, I wish you and yours All The Best.
May your children continue not to disappoint
you.

Col Rouge: " I do not like scotch and never drink it"

Have a gin then. Whatever floats your boat (what's a gin palace for, after all?).

Seriously, mate, your perspective is very skewed.

I wish to add something to my post about Col's post. Col may be a decent person, maybe. "Maybe" his posts on this subject are "really" the result of something that happened in his past, rather than about Corby.

But.....

He wrote some quite disgusting things, and my comments were about the actual things he wrote. He seems very quick to put down others, resulting in him getting treated the same way he seems to treat others.

Maybe he needs to think about, and clarify, some of his statements.

Or........

Maybe he IS just an uneducated arsehole. I would hope not, but on a forum it can be hard to know as we are anonymous and don't really know one another.

That’s a very interesting development in this story, antiseptic.

So it appears that the extra weight and the bulge in the boogie board bag wouldn’t have mattered if the bribe money had been there. Maybe the main issue is; who took the money…or was it there in the first place?

Do I still have doubts about her guilt? Absolutely. I’d like to hear a lot more about this revelation from Malcolm McCauley before I can condemn Shapelle Corby.

Philips, I agree with you. M’dear old friend Col is a bit over the top on this subject.

“Maybe he IS just an uneducated arsehole…”

No. Not at all. He is a very good and prolific contributor on this forum and shows a great deal of interest and thought on all sorts of subjects. Lets be gentle with each other.

Ludwig: "He is a very good and prolific contributor on this forum and shows a great deal of interest and thought on all sorts of subjects. Let's be gentle with each other."

I agree with both those comments, although Col seems to arrogate to himself the right to be "ungentle" and to get all teary-eyed and whingey when the favour is returned. There are a couple of subjects on which his generally intelligent, if reactionary, views are skewed dramatically by some personal experience. Nothing wrong with that, it applies to us all, but I get the sense Col is too comfortable with his prejudices to make any effort to analyse them.

Moving on... I really don't doubt Corby's guilt, and the story from McCauley rings very true to other accounts I've heard. There is also a question raised by Mccauley about the sister, who he claims was "racing to the airport" with cash for the payoff. How did she know it was required and what other involvement did she have? I can't help feeling that this was a Corby family enterprise, involving the whole lot of 'em.

Foxy “And even sorrier that you chose to vent your
spleen so openly on a public Forum such as this.”

I make no apology for freely expressing my long held view that second offence drug dealers should be executed.

Like you said, this is a public (opinion) forum, the place to express opinions publicly.

As for “spleen venting”,

Wrong, my comments are quite reasoned and rational
Drug peddlers are deserving of termination as atonement for the death they deal to their victims and hopefully a reduction in future victims.

Actually Philips “He wrote some quite disgusting things, and my comments were about the actual things he wrote. He seems very quick to put down others, resulting in him getting treated the same way he seems to treat others.

Maybe he needs to think about, and clarify, some of his statements.

Or........

Maybe he IS just an uneducated arsehole.”

The “spleen venting” seems to be coming from the opposite side of the debate.

Philips “Marijuana, alchol, tobacco: The ONLY difference is that 2 are legal and one is illegal.”

Yes and dealing in illegal drugs is a criminal offence. You might make up excuses all day long but at the end of the day, that is all you are doing – making excuses for the criminally and illegally inexcusable.

“Any father who'd disown his daughters for drug involvement is simply a lousy, rotten father.”

Actually, I had the discussion with both my daughters Saturday morning and they unreservedly agreed with me, mind you they do not use illicit drugs, either of them.

Antiseptic “Seriously, mate, your perspective is very skewed.”

And your perspective seems to be viewed and heavily influenced through a spirit bottle, hardly any basis for reason. Hate Gin too, never touch the stuff.

Finally Philip’s, for your last burst of bile, I suggest some strong sedatives and a dolly for you to hold while you have an afternoon nap or you will not be up to attending kinder tomorrow.

Thankyou Ludwig, you and I manage to regularly disagree without resorting to the subhuman vitriol of philips.

Dear Col,

You argue that your,
"... comments are quite reasoned and rational..."

that you don't resort to:
"...subhuman vitriol..."

Really?

Then what do you call this?

"I hope she dies in prison, either from a painful,
disfiguring disease or at her own miserable
hand, which would be the best thing she has ever
done for anyone else."

And this from a father with two daughters of his own,
towards a girl whose guilt has yet to be proven?

You may call that "reasoned and rational,"

I don't!

I'm one of those who initially formed a view that Schapelle Corby was unlikely to be guilty of knowingly importing marijuana into Indonesia, but recent revelations have caused me to reappraise that assessment. However, that's largely irrelevant to the idea that she should be allowed to serve her sentence in an Australian prison rather than and Indonesian one.

I understand that there has been a general push to try and secure reciprocal arrangements for people who are convicted of crimes in foreign countries to be able to serve their sentences in their home country. This seems to be a sound idea in terms of humanitarian aspects like access to family, and also would increase the likelihood of rehabilitation of criminals.

Having said that, I think that jailing anyone anywhere for dealing in marijuana is ridiculous, given the entirely arbitrary nature of its illegality. If it wasn't a crime to grow and smoke dope, there would be very little financial incentive for anybody to deal illegally in it. Much the same argument applies to any drugs, of course, but in the case of marijuana the harm caused by its illegality so obscenely exceeds on any measure any negative effects it may have on users that its proscription defies all rational logic.

This is, of course, why some people have to resort to anecdote and vitriol in order to justify their untenable positions with respect to recreational drugs - reason and hard evidence don't help their case, so insult and invective are deployed instead. I think that any reasonable reader of this thread will easily deduce who I'm talking about here.

Foxy "You may call that "reasoned and rational,"

I don't!"

such is the force your judgment and so too, the strength of my indifference.

I remain unrepentant.

The lives ruined by illegal drugs is the reason they are illegal.

You can think what you want about me but you will need better argument than sentimental swill to dissuade me that drug peddlers, who callously seek to deal and profit from the death and human misery of addiction deserve to live.

Col, to use your term of abuse.......I'm afraid the "swill" is coming directly from you.

This subject is about "marijuana". Yet you're complaining about people "callously profiting from DEATH". You need to actually UNDERSTAND THE SUBJECT MATTER.

I'll ask you YET AGAIN.......do you know what marijuana is?

Col wrote. "drug peddlers are deserving of termination as atonement for the death they deal to their victims".

Seeing the subject matter is about Schapelle Corby's alleged importation of "MARIJUANA".........can you now back up your statement and tell everyone all about the massive death toll from smoking a marijuana joint.

Come on Col.....show us the proven, official, marijuana "DEATH" statistics.

Now Col, it VERY interesting that you TOTALLY ignore the massive death toll and abject human misery caused by the "DRUG" alcohol, and the massive death toll resulting from the use of the "DRUG" tobacco. Because of your double standards and selective morality, your posts deserve mockery. It OBVIOUS drug "deaths" are NOT your concern.......your concern obviously comes from other places.

My God, you don't even realise the subject matter in this topic is about "MARIJUANA IMPORTATION", so how is it even remotely possible to have a rational discussion with you on the actual topic? The answer........it's not possible.

I've now read other things you have written, and guess what? You fit the stereotype of a forum abuser......they are happy to insult others **BUT** as soon as they are insulted back they are the first to WHINGE, WHINGE and WHINGE about it, and blame everyone else but "themselves".

The drug we are talking about is "MARIJUANA".

Do you now "get it" Col?

Probably not!

Dear Col,

I've tried hard to be tactful.

But, I have to accept the fact
that you're going to remain "unrepentant,"
as you put it.

Margaret Thatcher, a "Dame" that I believe
you greatly admire, (democratic enough to
talk down to anyone), once said,

"Tact is the ability to tell a man he
has an open mind, when he has a hole in his head!"

Col,

I think you are blaming drugs for people's actions. I always thought you were a 'be responsible for your own actions' type of person? So you're quite consistent in telling your daughters the consequences of their actions in their relationship with you if they were to take drugs. But to say a drug is responsible for ruinned lives is a bit simplistic I think.

What I find in your zero tolerance attitude to drugs, is naivity. You say you have tried marijuana about 3 times, but do you know how rare it is for dope to bring on psychosis? How un-addictive it is? How the correlation between dope and schizophrenia could easily be schizophrenic people using marijuana to self medicate. If you want to understand the rarity of the problems drugs can cause, just look at the MASSIVE quantities that are found in drug busts. Hard line anti drugs people like yourself seem to be in denial about how widespread drug use is by people in all walks of life, functioning normally and living fulfilled, honest lives. If I'm full of it, where are all the psychotic people to match the quantities of the massive marijuana plantations continually found?

When a whole container ship filled with cocaine is found, just how many people do you think are using the drug? The biggest lie about drugs is the government sponsored crap about it being a fringe activity, and that everybody who uses drugs is an addict stealing to support their habbit.

There's a better case for McDonalds to be illegal and reprehensible than marijuana.

CJ,

'This is, of course, why some people have to resort to anecdote and vitriol in order to justify their untenable positions with respect to recreational drugs - reason and hard evidence don't help their case, so insult and invective are deployed instead. I think that any reasonable reader of this thread will easily deduce who I'm talking about here.'

You really are a wuss aren't you. Why do you cowardly address people in the third person? Just say you don't agree with Col. It just shows your sheer arrogance the way you talk 'about' people, in your pseudo-intellectual superior way.

And you're no stranger to 'insult and invective' yourself anyway.

Well I'm glad you've got that off your chest, Whitty. Feel better now?

I must say, I concur with COL ROUGE'S position, apropos the use of illicit drugs. Whether it be cannabis or so called 'hard' drugs, they ALL tend to ultimately affect us in some deleteriously way, no matter how careful or judicious we are with their consumption.

O sung wu, the mistake you're making with that position is that you are not recognising that hard drugs kill, while Marijuana DOESN'T kill. By treating "all" illicit drugs as the same, Col shows a lack of understanding of the difference between the deadly effects of some drugs, and the less harmful affects of marijuana. If everyone possessed that lack of understanding, society's ability to counter the hard drug trade would be greatly diminished. Law enforcement in this country rightfully recognises this difference, enabling over stressed resources to be applied more towards battling DRUGS THAT KILL!

If the criminality of pushing hard drugs is not recognised as FAR, FAR greater compared to pushing marijuana, then we as a society are guilty of a criminal underestimation of the dreadfully deadly results of hard drugs, and a criminal overestimation of the results of smoking a marijuana joint.

Col also passes shops every day that push drugs that DO kill, and kill on a MASSIVE scale.....and he does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it. By FAR, the most dangerous drugs in our society are alcohol and tobacco, with a mesmerizing death toll and social dislocation. But Col stays "silent"; he believes their legality justifies his double standards and silence. It shows his motivation against drugs is NOT because they cause death, otherwise he'd be constantly and religiously speaking out against alcohol and tobacco.

Marijuana smoking is a pathetic endeavour.......but it DOESN'T KILL YOU.

Anyone caught with "commercial" amounts of marijuana deserves to be charged, and depending on circumstances, imprisoned. It also must be recognised, as it indeed is in most first world countries, that being caught with commercial quantities of marijuana is NOT the exact "same" crime as being caught with commercial quantities of illicit drugs that KILL people.

Col is obviously a very confused, vengeful and bitter man.

Other people are more interested in "understanding" drugs, and their physical and social affects (both legal and illegal drugs). It's from this "understanding" that ultimately many users are afforded the opportunity to escape from their lifestyle choices and addictions.

o sung wu, why stop at illegal drugs? If your criterion for your objection is the "deleterious" effect, do you condone alcohol, tobacco, aspirin, caffeine? If not, why do you single out "illegal" drugs?

For the record, I've smoked marijuana since I was 16 or so, and I'm now 45. I've smoked a lot of it and I used to smoke it very frequently, although I smoke it less now I'm older and it's harder to get hold of and much more expensive thanks to the wowsers. It was a normal part of the culture I grew up in.I don't THINK I'm psychotic or that I have a ruined life because of cannabis. I'd say I'm pretty articulate, rational and a functional member of society. Most people I know have similarly used the drug at some time, some of them more than me. In 29 years (just realised how long it's been, wow!) of use of marijuana, I have not had a single friend become mentally ill. I have never met anyone who became psychotic, let alone through a single week's use at a camp. Frankly, mate, I reckon you don't know what you're on about, your police career notwithstanding.

Good evening to you both - PHILIPS & ANTISEPTIC...

OK, you both mount a pretty good argument, and have essentially blown my precis, on the use of illicit drugs, right out of the water !

I was of course speaking in general terms. Not having ever tried cannabis sativa (medically recognised as a psychotropic drug) on any occasion, places me in a position where I can only rely on scientific material and theory, rather than sound empirical evidence.

I would still maintain however, that even though there's been no fatalities recorded from the use of cannabis per se(to my knowledge at least), there's an abundance of evidence suggesting that those folk who choose to 'use', on a regular basis, do run the risk of suffering from diminishing brain cells. I willingly admit, so do smokers and heavy consumers of alcohol.

It is also a reality, the usual purveyors and suppliers of cannabis often consort and associate with drug pushers (hard or otherwise), who are often habitual members of various crime gangs and other ne'er do wells who ooze from the dark and murky depths of the nether world !

The is also substantial evidence supporting the fact, that those who have a regular supplier of their 'stuff', though quite harmless initially, are often introduced (by their suppler) to much more dangerous and insidious substances. That can sadly lead to major dramas with the coppers. And worst, very serious addiction.

I accept, there are many 'back yard' growers of cannabis, basically for their own use. Though unlawful, the best of British luck to them. As long as it remains the status quo.

Some individuals seem to think that their initial success at growing their precious verdure undetected, believe that their modest little crop/s, suddenly transmogrifies to a hugh commercial enterprise. Where millions are to be made ? It's really so so sad.

O sung wu, I agree with your post.

I think Schapelle Corby, "if" guilty (and there's definite doubt about that...despite recent family related revelations; and there's doubt about the "total" accuracy of those allegations anyway), should do prison time. Like many Aussies in 3rd world country prisons, I think she should do some time there and finish her sentence here. "If" she's eventually found to be innocent, I think she should sue everybody who's libeled her.

o sung wu, I live in Qld, and I don't know anyone who grows the stuff any more. I had a long-term supplier who was shut down some little while ago. I believe he was an example of your comment about visions of millions to be made. I also know those visions were never realised, largely because it's apparently quite a lot of work to grow large quantities of anything, including marijuana. I once tried to grow a couple of plants myself for a couple of years and got very little to smoke out of it, so gave up. AFAIK, the main suppliers are bringing it in from South Australia, or that's the usual claim, anyway. It's nearly all hydroponically grown.

I have long had my suspicions that the police are not seriously interested in stopping the trade, since I'd have thought a "hydro house" would be pretty easy to detect, not to mention the purchase of all the necessary equipment, which must be fairly extensive. If so, I'm not complaining, since the price I pay has been the same for the past 5 years or so. At least the crooks aren't greedy...

philips, I have no idea who or what you are but your debating style is as rank as a three week old dead fish which has been discarded in the gutter.

I suggest before you demand anything of me, ask yourself, is your debating style likely to achieve your desired objectives or is it likely to see you vilified?

That you seem to be defending criminals is your choice. Such a choice talks to your ethics and lack thereof.

Comparing the dangers of marijuana to the dangers of excessive alcohol in no way to excuse or diminishes the dangers of marijuana.

I see, regularly the detrimental effects of excessive alcohol and excessive marijuana, particularly in combination.

I am thankful neither of my daughters (nor myself) chose such a path and I am prepared to take some small credit for that.

Friends of mine, going back 35 years have died from illegal drugs.

I posted the article here which described a girl in her mid twenties, a debilitated schizophrenic since 15 following excessive marijuana use and now to be incarcerated for the next 25 years because she is too damaged and dangerous to be free. Whilst still alive, Her “Life” is over. Her victim was someone who did not deserve to die at his young age, his life is likewise over.

I know how it has destroyed her parents lives, as well as her own.

Her ingestions of “The drug we are talking about is "MARIJUANA" caused that damage.

To alcohol, I have regularly imbided since the age of around 18 and even produced my own alcohol, to great delight and am a reformed smoker.

Unlike you, despite my irregularly use of alcohol, I can still string both a sentence and reasoned argument together.

And I smoked marijuana on three occasions, the first two times with no effect, the third was an experience I found neither pleasurable nor something I have ever sought to repeat. So if I am a bit ‘slow’ blame it on those three tries.

US “I think you are blaming drugs for people's actions.”

I blame the actions of Rhea Penrose (the girl in the article) on her drug use, Yes – so do her parents as so to the experts and the judge in her murder case.

Apart form that, I blame the rise in drug use on the exploitation of the gullible by the drug dealers.

Beyond that, I see no comment by me blaming the user for anything.

“What I find in your zero tolerance attitude to drugs, is naivity.”

That must be the first time anyone has accused me of naivety.

You are right I do endorse peoples’ right of choice. I have never suggested possession for own use should be a criminal offence, distinct from possession with intent to distribute or profit.

That someone should damage themselves through the ingestion of narcotics is up to them. Don’t ask me to accept responsibility for them but do expect me to protect my property from their irresponsible and often failed attempts to rob me of what is mine.

My view, a chronic drug-induced psychotic is nothing more than effluent but that is an outcome of their choice. They are ultimately the victim and their abuser is the drug dealer.

“There's a better case for McDonalds to be illegal and reprehensible than marijuana.”

Then you force legislation through to make McDonalds illegal and I will stop eating Big Mac’s.

Until then, I will munch on Macca’s whenever I want.

Re CJ “Just say you don't agree with Col.”

Actually I am not sure he was saying that, he could have been talking about Philips.

Foxy – quoting dearest Margaret, at least exposure to my posts have elevated you in that respect.

I guess as someone who did know, during his too short a life I will leave my quote to Jim Morrison

“Drugs are a bet with your mind.”

I guess if you win, your mind loses

O sung wu thanks for your support. However, “death from marijuana” occurs with diminished reasoning, psychosis and well before the bodies expires.

Once again, I want to Thank all of you for
your input.

I've said what I wanted to say about bringing
Schapelle Corby home.

I'm not going to take part in the drug debate
that is currently taking place on this thread.
Someone could start a separate thread on
that topic.

My intention was not to discuss drugs, or Schapelle's
guilt or innocence. But simply to raise the issue
of bringing her home.

I feel that's been done.

Again, I appreciate all of your input.

Poor old Col........ he gets thoroughly out debated and is now reduced to calling people abusive names.

I've been on many forums over the years, and quite a few of them usually have at least one person who habitually uses personal abuse when things don't go their way.

Col is obviously one such abuser. Most of them are males, and their abusive natures are a sign of weakness and is probably why these individuals tend to abuse on the internet, instead of being men and attempting it face to face.

When one is reduced to calling people "scumbag", then the plot and all rational thought is lost.

Get help Col.

Phillips,

I wouldn't say that Col is often abusive. Definately not any more abusive than what he receives. Anyway, if I were you I would look to your own Misandry later in your comments.

Col,

'distinct from possession with intent to distribute or profit.'
But they are providing a service just like anyone else who fulfils a need in society. Do you have the same opinion of sex workers?

'Apart form that, I blame the rise in drug use on the exploitation of the gullible by the drug dealers.
'
See that's what I don't understand. To buy drugs, one must seek out a drug dealer, and it's really not that easy. I know many people who have trouble finding a supplier for their indulgences. Dealers are FOUND through word of mouth and recomendations from like minded people. Identifying the possibly like minded people is tricky. It's interesting that I don't think you'd have the same opinion of Beer companies' advertising, which is blatantly pushing something.

'from their irresponsible and often failed attempts to rob me of what is mine.
'
Obviously that's your experience with some drug users. But the naivity I am talking about is your apparent ignorance of the many many drug users who hold positions of responsibility and lead otherwise healthy lives. Many Lawyer and Doctors, IT personal that I know with families and who pay tax and are loving responsible people also do drugs.

As I said if this is a fringe activity that overwhelmingly produces addicts stealing to support their habbits, where is the damage to correspond to the massive quantities often found by the police?

'My view, a chronic drug-induced psychotic is nothing more than effluent but that is an outcome of their choice. They are ultimately the victim and their abuser is the drug dealer.
'
I find this a bit contradictory. If it's your own choice, you are a victim of nobody in my book. I also don't judge other people's choices as I have a different frame of reference. People generally act logically to ther own frame of reference.

Philips rather than bother with addressing you as the resident amoeba direct, I will merely concur with US assessment.

But also ponder this.. God may well feel like helping me

As for you, I am sure the devil has a special circle in hell reserved for Neanderthal hypocrites where he plays back your OLO posts to you and you suffer the endless torment from their poor grammar, pointlessness and inane attempts at sarcasm.

US “'distinct from possession with intent to distribute or profit.'
But they are providing a service just like anyone else who fulfils a need in society. Do you have the same opinion of sex workers?”

Good question.

Drug dealers provide a service which is known to be not simply detrimental but debilitating (and I am including marijuana there) to someone health and life expectancy.

STD aside, I have never known of anyone becoming debilitated, let alone have their life expectancy seriously curtailed, through using the services of a sex worker, be it pole dancing or exchange of bodily fluids.

Must admit I do tend to feel the “sex” industry is what I count as a “victimless” activity.

Although I also consider it the worst of trades, taking the highest possible price in terms of personal degradation from both the user and provider in the exchange.

In short, a profoundly sad way of making a living and a worse way of finding physical relief.

Maybe we should start a thread about it?

“Many Lawyer and Doctors, IT personal that I know with families and who pay tax and are loving responsible people also do drugs”

I only hope they never operate on, represent or write programs for me.

More fool them. I do not do drugs, beyond occasional and moderate use of alcohol. My partner used to regularly in her youth and now she regrets it almost daily.

I agree people have a right to choose hence, the emphasis of my “hostility” (as accurate a word as any) is to the dealer / exploiter and not the user.

Good afternoon to you - PHILIPS...

Actually, I've followed COL R.'s standpoint for quite sometime in these august deliberations. Generally, I reckon he presents as an individual who exhibits superior social mature, accompanied by a relatively shrewd and balanced arguement.

It's also been asserted by some herein, that COL R. (when negatively challenged) engages in language of a kind that is both invective or at the very least, intemperate in it's delivery.

As I type these humble musings of mine, I just heard on the radio, (3AW) three of the Bali 9 had just lost their final (judicial) appeal to the Indonesion Supreme Court. Apparently, there's no further appeal available to them (except to the President himself, I expect?). Further, the presenter (Mr HINCH) had received word (unofficially) the execution could take place in as little as forty eight hours time ? Emmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Personally, nothwithstanding the fact that I'm a veteran and a retired copper...I do NOT support the Death Penalty - Period !

I better get off this thread now, lest I inadvertently promote a Death Penalty debate?

o sung wu, I believe it was the Bali bombers who have exhausted all avenues of appeal. I share your disgust at the death penalty, even for these people.

In respect of the Bali 9, I would hope that our Government of the time when their appeals are exhausted would make every effort to intercede to have the executions commuted.

To return to the original topic, avoiding being diverted by the attention-seeking tantrums of poor old Col, whilst I have little doubt that Schapelle Corby knew what was in here luggage and is therefore guilty, I would hope the Government of today might intercede to have her extradited to serve her time here. In the scheme of things, 4kg or so isn't much pot.

O sung wu “that COL R. (when negatively challenged) engages in language of a kind that is both invective or at the very least, intemperate in it's delivery.”

When the challenge is to the person and not the topic, some might suggest I am intemperate, I view it simply as returning in kind.

Hence, we may disagree and challenge each others view but you do not descend to the vitriol and ad hominines which some hurl with presumed impunity.

An ‘impunity’ which I must say, find irresistible to challenge.

Antiseptic, You still lack something,

I suggest apply yourself to your posts (as in an application of ‘antiseptic’ salve) and you might just rise above what you seem to be becoming, a chronically infected pustile

Dear Col,

You told Antiseptic that he 'lacked something.'

So do you.

If you want to insult someone, at least
get the spelling correct.

It should be 'pustule,'
not 'pustile.'

Oh god we're onto correcting spelling now. May I apologise in advance for my own lack of attention to detail. Actually not, it's a time and care equation for me. Something about get a life comes into my mind...

Dear Usual Suspect,

You've read it wrong.

It's not about correcting the spelling.

It's about trying to raise the level
of certain posts on this thread - elevate them out of
"scumbag" tactics. Get them to avoid stooping
to personal insults.

But, perhaps you're right.

In future I'll think twice.

Good evening All...

Of course you're quite correct ANTISEPTIC, it was the Bali Bombers to whom the Broadcast refers.

The Death Penalty is too revolting to contemplate. To engage in the ritualistic killing of another, is nothing short of barbaric when perpetrated by civilized human kind.

However, realistic gaol time I certainly don't have a problem with.
Nor even a stroke or two of the rotan, for criminals who have committed very serious offences against the person. Particularly some of the more heinous crimes against women and children.

Bring Schapelle CORBY home ? I don't believe so. If, and I mean if it were possible, and procedures were advanced to accomplish this end, I wonder if Ms. CORBY would really want to come home ?

It would appear that she enjoys a great deal of latitude for one who's supposed to be doing twenty years. I can assure you all, if she is permitted to serve the balance of her sentence here, she'll be far more regulated with respect to her comings and goings, and what property she's allowed to keep in her cell or dormitory.

In closing, hang in there COL R., you've certainly got my support (I wish I possessed your writing style!).

O sung wu “In closing, hang in there COL R., you've certainly got my support (I wish I possessed your writing style!).”

LOL thanks for the support, o sung wu

And from my reading, your own ‘style’ serves you well.

Btw inspired by your words maybe, I started a post on the topic of the death sentence.

Please enrich the debate by contributing your view to the melee.

It's telling that after all of Col's posts here on this topic, with all their inaccuracies, twisting of other's peoples' views, bad syntax/grammar/spelling and vicious personal abuse, he STILL is totally incapable of producing the "official, documented, marijuana death statistics".

He's claimed he's pro the disfigurement/suicide/execution of Schapelle Corby because of the huge "DEATH" toll of drugs. Corby was convicted in a third world show trial for importing "marijuana"; there is NO massive death toll for marijuana. She may be guilty, she may be innocent; only a proper and fair trial can determine that.

Marijuana, like alcohol and tobacco, (but less so because it doesn't physically kill), is a dangerous drug. It should not be legalised, and the ONLY reason the FAR more dangerous tobacco and alcohol drugs are not illegal is because of the entrenched social history/acceptance of these two extremely deadly drugs.

Col wishes death on Corby NOT because marijuana kills. He wants her dead because that's part of the "far right wing ideological beliefs" he rigidly believes in. These type of far right dogmatists wish death upon ALL drug pushers......except the alcohol and tobacco pushers of course.

It's painfully clear from his disjointed ramblings that poor old Col needs to gain information, education and an actual conscience regarding drugs. Instead of, unthinkingly and rigidly, aligning himself with his preferred, inflexible political dogma on this topic. Make up your "own" mind Col, instead of following what you "think" your heroes Maggie Thatcher and John Howard believe.

Oh by the way Col , please learn how to put 2 words together better, because it would make your posts sound more comprehensible. There's plenty of adult literacy courses available; please avail yourself of that expertise; it should help you.

My preferred option (though for certain legal and political reasons it will never happen)?

Bring Schapelle Corby back. Put the case on trial again in order to "correctly and fairly" establish her guilt or innocence. If she's found guilty, she should do jail time. If she's innocent, she should be released.

Drug peddlers (including tobacco and alcohol pushers) are the scum of the Earth. We have a responsibility not just towards ourselves, but towards others in society. A society free from recreational drugs is a MUCH safer, healthier and better society. But that will never happen, because of human nature.

Philips “Col wishes death on Corby NOT because marijuana kills. He wants her dead because that's part of the "far right wing ideological beliefs" he rigidly believes in. These type of far right dogmatists wish death upon ALL drug pushers......”

So you know me so well you and you are so insightful that you can analyse my reasons.

Well you are wrong but doubtless too arrogant to recognize it.

“poor old Col needs to gain information, education and an actual conscience regarding drugs.”

I know plenty, more than I care to post here but your sense of self omnipotence is unlikely to acknowledge even what I do post.

“Drug peddlers (including tobacco and alcohol pushers) are the scum of the Earth”

You said it.

Well tobacco and alcohol are deemed legal not illegal.

I support the rule of law,

However, I doubt you have the reasoning skills to recognize the difference

As you have pronounced your self such an advocate against drugs (legal or illegal), what would you do about the 'caffeine peddlers'?

Do keep posting, I do look forward to making a social sport of you

"Social sport"? Gee, you're so witty Col, you really wounded me with that one.

Keep trying old boy, maybe one day you'll get there; but you'll have to practice a bit more.

Dear Col, and Philips,

Come on, let it go.

No one wins, with these kind of tactics.