This probably wont mean much to many readers...but some of us were talking about the Salvation Army on another thread and I wanted to extend that discussion to see if anyone had further thought.
Having been a Salvo adherant and loved the fellowships and studied some of the history of the movement, Im a bit disappointed in their leadership for allowing them to become so lukewarm organisation...for surely once upon the Salvation Army was a fire to behold.
Today they represent not so much a Christian outreach to the lost, but a community help organisation not all that different from St. Vincent de Pauls etc.
They stopped outward preaching in communities.
They found reasons not to go to the dying with the Gospel of their Lord.

When God gave the vision for a christian outreach to William and Catherine Booth there was a gin plague on in England and children as young as 6 were caught up in it and getting bombed out on alcohol.
The Salvos offset this but taking on the huge task of getting Jesus Christ out to the people so they could get saved and set free of the demon drink.
Once the Salvos marched the streets of English cities with bands and Bibles and the preaching was open to the public and many people came to know Jesus as their Saviour.
Jesus set them free.
As time passed the organisation spread out across the world.
Salvos could be found on the battlefields of Europe and other horrible places helping the hurt and preaching Jesus to the soldiers.
As time progressed lukewarmness seems to have come to the army.
Communion got dumped as did water baptism...the Gifts of the Holy Spirit almost vanished.
Tongues were considered from the devil in some corps and were much lost.
External preaching were eventually placed in a draw and the army went on the be little more than a charity group with chits for food and clothing.
The fire that made them more pentecostal than todays pentecostals seems to have been lost.
Id love to see the fire back.

Dear Gibo,

I'm sorry that you're disappointed in the Salvos.
Words are fine - but sometimes they're not enough.
When your belly is empty,or you're homeless, or
running away from abuse and in need of protection,
it's not words that will help - but actions.

I've got the utmost respect for the Salvos,
and donate whenever I can.

To me they're truly doing "God's work."
They care for people. They meet human
needs without discrimination.
They restore human dignity, and hope.
They show genuine compassion by their actions.

And Gibo, that's the kind of "fire" that
does good. It's better than words,
especially to people in dire
need.

I think that more people "Thank God for
the Salvos." Because their actions speak
louder than words.

Gibo,

You know my previous comments so I wont repeat them here.
I believe the Salvation Army was started at a time when mainstream churches were not welcoming the lower classes. This was in a time when there was no organized welfare system, and all welfare was the responsibility of the church. In the 1800's the Church of England was reponsible for running workhouses. They thought this was having compassion on the destitute by giving them just enough food to survive on. (Remember Oliver Twist, the boy who asked for more).
The Salvation Army was more compassionate as they not only brought assistance to the destitute, but also gave them hope through real life changing experience. They were never intended to be a church, that is why they don't have communion or baptism.
Sure it would be good to see the Salvo's as with all other churches more "on fire" as you say, but preaching the love of God without demonstrating it in our actions is useless.

Foxy

My father had a long association with the Salvation Army and I was kindly disposed to them for most of my life.

However, I stopped giving donations to the Salvation Army when the extent to which kids in their institutions were sexually abused, beaten and neglected became known and was documented (Senate Report, Forgotten Australians, 2004) http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/clac_ctte/completed_inquiries/2004-07/inst_care/report/

I have since met many older men and women who were brought up in Salvation Army homes. (They refer to them as the Starvation Army.) They are all extremely bitter about the hypocrisy and the un-Christian practices they endured throughout their childhood.

The situation got worse for me when I met officially with Salvation Army officers at conferences dealing with former institutionalised children. They were obdurate, conceded nothing, denied everything and took a legalistic approach to dealing with complaints - "Let them prove it, we admit nothing." No compassion, no concern for human suffering.

Incidentally, I have written four times to the Starvation Army asking for my personal details to be deleted from their mailing list. I am still getting begging letters. Do I have to take legal action to be left alone?

Spikey,

I gave my reasons for withdrawing support for the Salvation Army on another post. They are almost the opposite of your reasons. I saw people getting assistance who didn't need it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Australia has a very good social welfare system. I used to be a bank teller, and some supposedly poor families were getting more money in welfare that what I was getting for working. I give adequate donations to support the biggest charity in this country, that is Centrelink, and the donations I pay are compulsory salary deductions called income tax. (If you check out this country's balance sheet you will see the money spent of welfare exceeds the receipts from income tax). I've been unemployed in my lifetime and needed to collect the dole. It wasn't a life of luxury, but I could survive. I don't smoke, and I only drink in moderation. Beer is a luxury, and in tight economic times has to be forgone.

The fact is that there are many nice people out there that are underprivileged. Make friends with them. Give them your time and spend money on things that will be beneficial to them. (A meal at McDonalds to them is like what a 5 star restaurant is to me). They will appreciate it and you will find it rewarding. The 10-year-old Daughter of one of these families gave me a hand made birthday card one year. It was only on a piece of paper, and only written in biro, but I will always keep this and treasure it.

Dear Spikey,

I don't know what to say.

My heart goes out to you for all that
you've suffered.

Churches, Charitable Organisations, Institutions
like the Police Force,
all attract both good and bad people. You'll
find it's not the organisations that are to blame
(although they contribute to the problem often, by
ignoring it), it's the people within them.

I was raised as a Catholic, and we also heard
horror stories of what happened within
their boarding schools.

However, I don't blame the Church, I blame
the people within the Church - that did
those things.

These people have a case to answer for.

Perhaps one day, some of them will.
Perhaps, some of them already have.

Anyway, it's ultimately their loss, as
good people tend to vote with their feet,
and leave the Church. If the Church does
not reform, it will lose out - as it has done,
and continues to do.

I'm not sure what you can do with the mail that
you're receiving - except if nothing else works -
re-address it, and send it back to them, until
they get the message. That way it will cost them.

Take care.

All The Best,

I used to support the Salvos, purely for their work in assisting the disadvantaged. I didn't get involved on a regular basis and kept well clear of the religion bit, but I did collect for their Red Shield appeal for many years.

Until I saw their leadership standing hand in hand with John Howard one too many times, and becoming far too keen on supporting his draconian and punitive approach to social policy for my liking. I have nothing to do with them any more and now donate my used stuff to Lifeline instead.

Mum's a very active Salvo but that's her thing; I leave her to it. As Foxy pointed out, there are still lots of good people in the organization. On balance, the Salvos do still stand out in my book as one of the more useful and less hypocritical of the churches.

It is always interesting to read the stories from different people about the same organization. A bit like those legendary eyewitnesses who saw the same hit-and-run, but reported the car in many different makes, models and colours. All convinced of course, that their version is "true" and the others' false.

My experience is that of all the organizations who profess to care for the disadvantaged, the Salvos come closest to practising true compassion and caring.

Apart from their attitude, which I personally have found to be unfailingly modest, thoughtful and self-deprecatory, they don't raise money simply in order to keep their chief executive in clover...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/sep/25/8

...nor do they spend like drunken sailors on head-office staff

http://phoenix.jobing.com/job_details2.asp?JobID=1509096&utm_source=simplyhired&utm_medium=link&utr

Seeing them feeding soup to the homeless under railway arches at 1 a.m. is a humbling experience. Not once did I hear them preach at an unfortunate drunk or druggie, instead they simply gave them what sustenance and hope they were able, expecting nothing in return.

If others have had different experiences, that saddens me. But I have myself seen enough goodness and selflessness to make the Salvos my only "must-give" charity.

I guess I openned a door to some interesting feelings towards the Salvos.
Actually I wasnt trying to so much bag the Army for anything in the physical it had or hadnt done... as I was lamenting the loss of their spiritual fire.
I used to live in country Queensland and when I became a born again Christian I was attending the Salvation Army and for several years after I got saved, I went to their local Corps. Much the Salvo talk was about the "old days" of William and Catherine Booth and what fire the early Salvos had for the lost... but like many churches they seemed to have lost the go to "Go into all of the world and preach to every living creature" (Mark 16:15).
As I watched our little Army group, over a period of time, Captains coming and going as they did, bit by bit the preaching and witnessing events fell away and mostly they went cold to the lost.
My hope is that one day the Salvo Army will truly come alive again and be seen again out in our streets preaching Jesus with trumpets uplifted.
The dark years ahead may just provide that opportunity.
With petrol and food going to get so expensive there will eventually be a huge wave of poor, all around the world, begging for help from whomsoever will listen.
Then Im sure the fire for Jesus will be back.
In hardtimes, and war, men and women always turn to The Lord.

Pericles

Your experience of the Salvation Army (SA) is valid. You saw them as compassionate and down-to-earth.

Please don't insult the many children who were put in the care of SA officers in institutions by your analogy to the divergent accounts of hit-and-run accidents. I'm talking about people whose whole childhoods were ruined by the SA. No hit-and-run. These kids couldn't run because the Salvos would have the Police fetch them back.

If you're serious about the truth look at the Senate Report, "Forgotten Australians".

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/clac_ctte/completed_inquiries/2004-07/inst_care/report/

Even the SA acknowledge that in their institutions "...sadly there have been some instances where unsafe, improper or unlawful care or treatment has occurred." (Submission 46) And that's as much of a concession of responsibility the SA would make.

Compare the victims' detailed submissions under oath about

- Sexual and physical abuse, alcoholic staff and violence (submission 75)

- Violence (submission 90)

- Humiliation of bed wetters (submission 184)

- Physical abuse, humiliation (submission 286)

- Mental abuse - scrubbing toilets with a toothbrush (submission 326)

- Being flogged for crying because you were missing your mother (submission 335).

These examples come from as far apart as Queensland, NSW and WA. Victoria's hell-hole at Bayswater could match these shocking stories. Not much Christian charity there, Pericles. Maybe the children would have ben better off had they slept under railway arches, eh?

The SA has created many damaged adults. Maybe some sleep under railway arches.

You confirm that the SA does it on the cheap. No heavy overheads. That may be why the former residents of their children's institutions called them the Starvation Army.

Thanks for the references Spikey.

The hit-and-run analogy was clumsy, and not intended to suggest that my view was "true" and all others false. More that my view might be equally personalized by my own experiences, and therefore just one opinion among many.

>>These examples come from as far apart as Queensland, NSW and WA. Victoria's hell-hole at Bayswater could match these shocking stories. Not much Christian charity there, Pericles. Maybe the children would have ben better off had they slept under railway arches, eh?<<

This is "generalizing from the particular", upon which you quite rightly took me to task.

I have to agree that in the cases cited there was "not much Christian charity" on display.

But at the same time you must also accept that I have seen acts that demonstrate "a great deal of Christian charity".

Pericles,

Yes I accept your point about examples of Christian charity - that's why my father was such a supporter of the Salvos.

However, in their children's homes and the defensive response of the top brass of the Salvation Army to complaints of child abuse - not unlike the Catholics - Christian principles such as compassion for the meek, contrition for your sins and Christian charity simply went missing.

Why does Gibo so frequently refer to Christian funamentalists as being "on fire"?

I thought that fate was reserved for us heathens.