Ginx- I do agree with you to some degree that there was a bully brigade that formed during the Henson debate.

The views of the for and against camps were so polarized that there was absolutely no middle ground on which they could agree on. It was very difficult to reason with some Henson supporters but that is really just a poor reflection on them personally, more than anything else.

During the debate an acquaintance- aged 40- passed away leaving 3 young children behind. That stopped me in my tracks and I ended up just letting my strong feelings on the Henson debate go. It suddenly all seemed quite insignificant in the whole scheme of life.

Anyway Ginx- have a great trip to wherever you are going.

Dear Ginx,

Ditto, from me as well...

Have a great trip... You shall be missed - we need decisive strong voices such as yours on this Forum.

In the meantime - have fun!

RObert

“Bronwyn, I don't think it's possible or desirable to create equal outcomes.”

When I spoke of striving to create ‘equal outcomes’, I wasn’t alluding to communism or any totalitarian system. I was referring to the ideal of an egalitarian society and one without obvious disparities in the wealth of its citizens. It's a very different society to one whose aim is solely to provide equal opportunity.

Providing equal opportunity in itself does not create equal outcomes. Disadvantaged people need extra assistance to avail themselves of the opportunities provided equally to all, otherwise they are not in a position to benefit and will not do so, while others more advantaged will, and the gap between the advantaged and the disadvantaged will just grow wider.

“To achieve equal outcomes we would have to remove all choice.”

It doesn’t require removal of choice at all. It involves enhancing the choices for disadvantaged groups who, unless given that assistance, invariably have very limited choices compared to the more advantaged in society.

This is what angered Pauline Hanson and her supporters. They saw positive discrimination or affirmative action as favouritism and felt it was benefiting the recipients at their expense. Of course it wasn’t, but it’s an understandable reaction from people who are themselves experiencing an increasing degree of economic hardship for whatever reason.

Paul

“I think our culture of a fair go demands that everyone gets an equal opportunity. To my mind that means that all children deserve a good education, to prepare them to take advantage of their opportunities..”

I agree, all children deserve a good education. Simply providing equal opportunity though is not enough in my view. In a typical class of students there will always be a small group who do not manage to achieve at grade level. Teachers have two choices. They can deliver the same lessons to all and give the same amount of time to each student, or in other words provide equal opportunity. In which case by the end of the year the gap between the achievers and the under-achievers will have widened. Or, teachers can spend more time with the slower students than they do with the more able, with the aim of lifting those disadvantaged students closer to the grade average, or in other words aiming for equal outcomes. The latter choice to my mind is the best and fairest choice. It gives the disadvantaged a better chance than the the first option would have, and it also means in the long run a more harmonious and safer society.

“All the people were healthy, they were clearly not inebriated, they spoke English well and they looked dignified.”

Alcohol has had a detrimental effect on Aboriginal life and we have to accept some responsibility for that and do all we can to help Aboriginal communities ameliorate the harm it has caused. We introduced them to alcohol. We profited from its sale and for many years we turned a blind eye to the damage it was causing.

“The termination of employment of Aboriginal stockmen was the beginning of a road of great hardship and much adversity for many communities.”

The road of hardship for Aborigines began long before this. The termination of Aboriginal stockmen’s employment only occurred because station-owners were unwilling to pay the same wages paid to whites. You’re not suggesting an Aboriginal stockman should have been content to work for lesser wages, are you?

R0bert: << That aspect of the debate from both sides reminds me of the old story of the man being shown inkblots by the psychiatrist. For each inkblot shown the man claimed he saw an image of something sexual. After a while the psychiatrist comments that the man is obsessed with sex to which the man replies "You are the one with all the dirty pictures". >>

Yes, that's a very apposite old joke that I've seen repeated more than once recently in relation to the Henson debate.

pelican: << The trouble is an inkblot is just an inkblot but a photograph of naked children displaying genitalia or in sexual poses does not pretend to be anything else. It is what it is - there is no ambiguity or room for interpretation like in the inkblot. >>

With respect, you miss the point entirely. Clearly there's both ambiguity and room for interpretation in Henson's images, else there wouldn't be any debate about them. For example, asserting that his models' poses are "sexual" is exactly the kind of interpretation to which the inkblot joke alludes.

Dear Bronwyn
my 'notably not you' referred to your not having a nibble at me in the 'How to interpret texts' thread. I don't recall seeing any contribution from you.

Regarding what I suppose might be called affirmative action, greater economic assistance to those left behind.

Economic assistance, education etc will not in my view solve the core problem of indigenous squalor or disadvantage. People need dignity and hope to even have a desire to advance themselves.

Let me show you a group who were in utter squalor, about which the book 'Drunk Before Dawn' was written. My wife is from this group.

According to the Sarawak governmment at the time (mid 20s) they were 'beyond hope and should be left to die out'.. They were even used as 'head hunting fodder' by the Sarawak government who allowed Dayaks to attack them and vent their rather warlike spleens because "after all..they are beyond hope"

Spiritual renewal is the real answer to indigenous (or any) squalor and disadvantage. That does not just change the circumstance, it also changes the person.

If I may, please imagine the worst examples of Indigenous living.

http://www.fixcas.com/news/2007/spry2.jpg
http://zaffran.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/isr.jpg
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/01/11/12DARWIN_wideweb__470x287,0.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/fighting-to-shed-despair/2006/01/11/1136956241016.html&h=287&w=470&sz=31&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=lNVWDceIdttyiM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daboriginal%2Bsqualor%26ndsp%3D18%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
http://www.thewest.com.au/getfile.aspx?Type=image&ID=112206&ObjectType=3&ObjectID=85104
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200710/r195662_743800.jpg
http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/pictoria/a/1/3/im/a13668.jpg
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3281219.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=4F84C7EF07395AB6FC27C8FA967462DBA55A1E4F32AD3138

Then..contrast that with this below.. a people who 'were' just like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPSCWFjg1y0&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYqMG2HApj8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MTgIeY1mpQ&amp;feature=related
(You'll see some conical red banded hats on that one, I have one at my place.)

This (below) is where I've walked.. am related to many of the people there, Ba'Kalalan..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hctOO9surtA&amp;feature=related

Notice all the squalor and sadness :) and the dilapidated humpies...the starving neglected children. Yep.. 'transformation' through the Gospel of Christ is an awful thing...for sure.

Renewed people don't need handouts, or 'special' assistance.. all they need is space, love and respect.