Today was one of those 'days_to_remember'.

I volunteered to assist manning a small Christian booth at the MBS event in the Exhibition/Jeff's_shed buildings.

While there, I noticed some olive skinned blokes in white robes, long black beards and white hats. Turned out that they were with a "Discovering Islam" stand.

Thinking this is a great opportunity to clarify some issues about which we here have been debating, I wandered down and introduced myself to 'Sammy', from Afganistan.

The line of questioning was as follows:

-Is the Quran 'the' Word of Allah, rather than simply 'containing' it? "Yes". (emphatically)
-Do those words of Allah in the Quran apply to today also, in their entirity? ("Absolutely" ..again_emphatically)

After a few minutes, he referred me to another more knowledgable brother, who happened to be from Saudi Arabia.

To that chap, I said.. "if I find a verse, can you read this and tell me what it means?" And using the Quran they had given me, turned to Surah 9:30 and handed it to him. He read it out loud, and of course, this is the verse which curses Christians and Jews.

I explained that I am a Christian and a former/current part time missionary, and asked how he thought we might feel about such verses.

His response was "These are not our words, but the words of Allah"

He also emphasized (to my surprise) that he had no desire to misrepresent Islam as 'A religion of peace', but said It is what it is..and that includes the verse we read, which is 100% applicable to today.

Interestingly, he turned to another surah and verse, which is MORE sternly worded and read it for me. It was like Croc Dundee's "you call 'that' a knife? THIS is a knife"

Our contact was warm and cordial in spite of the subject matter, and we shook hands many times.
My comment was that in spite of the verse just read, I offer my hand in friendship and Christs love, which was happily accepted.

Whew Boazy, it must've been a close call. Clearly, they didn't kill you.

I guess they must've cursed you after your encounter. Does it hurt yet?

"Our contact was warm and cordial in spite of the subject matter, and we shook hands many times.
My comment was that in spite of the verse just read, I offer my hand in friendship and Christs love, which was happily accepted."

You are such a hypocrite BD. You boast here of how friendly you were, shaking hands and all. And yet we all know you will use this encounter to create further division. You'll rehash this story ad nauseam and give the knife another twist every time.

Yes BOAZ DAVID I too think you used it to highlight your fears about Islamist.
Yes you are not alone many agree with some of your fears but threads like this only promote trouble.
I still grin at your surprise I would highlight the lies used habitually by some, far too many.
But just for a second can you not see how much better the world might be if no religion existed?
I would have ducked and dived to avoid both sides of your meeting buying the first thing on a stall far away to do so.

Points all taken.. but I sure hope it is not lost on readers that the issues previously highlighted are well and truly confirmed, and to simply mock this in the name of tolerance is warped to say the least.

FOLLOW UP.. the other side of this, which I couln't fit into the first post, was what happened after the initial visit.

One of the blokes from their stall came to ours, he was from Oman.
He showed interest in what we were on about, and asked me to explain what it mean't to be Christian. He wanted to vid the experience, but I preferred to just do it by audio.

He was curious also about "what issues we have with Islam" and he asked me to be very frank- so I briefly touched on one, and we discussed it.

While it might be difficult for some of my 'usual critics' to appreciate or relate to this, the dominant emotion I feel in such encounters is the love of Christ. After explaining that the primary reason we don't accept Islam is the finality of Christ, rather than specific things we don't like about Islam, (which he understood)
he asked for some final words. I gave him a blessing along the lines of "May the love of God shine upon you and guide you".

In some ways, this could only be appreciated by those who know that same love, and I don't expect the 'gang' to relate to it.

There are 2 levels on which the Christian who is a citizen in a democracy should act.

1/ The interpersonal relationships level, which should be characterized by Christs love. and

2/ The democratic/policy level, which must take responsibility for the future of a country.

Loving your enemies in personal encounters, who curse you (in Allah's name, to your face) for what you believe, is not incompatible with seeking public policy adjustments which may limit the numbers of them migrating to your country or limit certain practices for those in the country. (preaching of certain anti Christian Anti Jew sentiments is an example)

NEW AGEism.....and those capitalizing from it.

Opposite our stall was some mob called

"Supreme Master Television"

http://www.suprememastertv.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=about_us

It took quite a while to discover who this 'supreme master' is, but tucked down in the middle of a number of bullet points is this:

<<# Between Master and Disciples offers a glimpse into candid conversations between Supreme Master Ching Hai and spiritual practitioners on subjects ranging from daily life to the secrets of the universe and much more.>>

Some more searching reveals this: (getting weirder by the minute)

http://www.godsdirectcontact.org/

The 'shop front' is all about vegetarianism and 'save the planet' and animal rights, but.. when lurking in the shadows is "Gods direct Contact"......

One is tempted to have some concerns.

and...it gets weirder still!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_Hai#International_awards

<In the past, she stated that she earned more than former U.S. President Bill Clinton's annual salary of $200,000,[39] which is incongruous with a monastic lifestyle requiring that clergy do not engage in profit or commercial activity. She has opened vegetarian restaurants, held public seminars, and has made millions of dollars as a painter, fashion designer, and jewelry designer. She has also raised eyebrows for her flamboyant dress sense, which is not in line with that of a Buddhist monk or nun. In October 1995 on Ching Hai Day, she wore queenly robes "under orders from God," riding a sedan chair carried by eight bearers to the cheers of "your royal majesty".>

Now.. at risk of being accused of 'odiously spreading hate and loathing' :) I recommend all take extreme care in delving into this kind of thing.

There's a difference between being aware of a truth and taking the appropriate stance on it as a Christian, and actively attempting vilify others because of knowledge of that truth. The others are right, that makes you a hypocrite, and inciteful.

At least these Islamist extremists aren't hypocritical, unlike you. You've proven that for them. They, unlike you, practice what they believe and are taught.

It looks like Boazy was in good company at Frootloop Fest.

<< He wanted to vid the experience, but I preferred to just do it by audio. >>

Given Boazy's fanatical promotion of YouTube as a means to share ideas, does this strike anybody else as just a tad hypocritical? Why didn't you want to promote your faith on video, Boazy?

Oh I get it - video's only good for spreading hatred.

"Opposite our stall was some mob called 'Supreme Master Television'."

A perfect case of like meeting like by the sounds of it. Perhaps your feelings on encountering this group BD will give you an insight into how most of the rest of us regard your fanatical ramblings.

"NEW AGEism.....and those capitalizing from it."

Aah, the good Christian, having just finished preaching to the rest of us about 'loving your enemies', takes aim at yet another hapless ISM and has another group of well-meaning people lined up in his sights.

"The 'shop front' is all about vegetarianism and 'save the planet' and animal rights, but.. when lurking in the shadows is 'Gods direct Contact'......"

Yes, 'God' turns up in the strangest places. You don't have a monoploy on him (or her) you know BD. At least with this mob you get something worthwhile in amongst the godspeak.

"In the past, she stated that she earned more than former U.S. President Bill Clinton's annual salary of $200,000,[39] which is incongruous with a monastic lifestyle requiring that clergy do not engage in profit or commercial activity."

Perhaps she learnt from those yankee evangelicals on television, and all those other Christians building their personal empires, and somehow managing to turn a deaf ear to the bible's warning about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Another biblical message comes to mind which seems very apt at the moment, something about taking the plank out of your own eye before worrying about the mote in someone else's. I think you need to revisit that one BD.

After having read Boazy's first post I am sitting here wondering why he wasn't beaten into a bloody pulp by these Muslims.

But, as he had managed to start another discussion thread, I can only conclude that:

1. The Muslims aren't literally following the Quran's text

2. We only have Boazy's version (interpretation) of events

Maybe, just maybe, the Muslims don't take the Quran, the word of Allah, anywhere as LITERALLY as Boazy does when he cherry pick's Quran. I guess we should be grateful that Boaz is not a Muslim.

So much for the "Interfaith" celebration, when the first thing Boazy does is interrogate a couple of hapless Muslims.

As a result we have yet another discussion thread devoted to vilifying Islam. Yawn

I think the thing that concerns me the most is that people like David enjoy this sort of thing. It seems to get them off in some way.

Let's re-examine the evidence, Boaz.

You are at a "MindBodySpirit" event.

You approach some people that you have never met, and ask them a couple of questions that you have regurgitated here several hundred times.

These people quite amazingly say exactly what you hoped they would say.

Now, I would obviously not call you a liar, or suggest that you might be leaving out other key exchanges that occurred that might have put a different slant on events, or accuse you of stretching the truth in any way.

But I have to take into account the possibility that they might have been having a lend of you, given that you clearly wore your "I'm a Christian Evangelist" badge prominently displayed.

I certainly would have, I can assure you.

Another possibility is that you met two of the four people in Melbourne who thought the way these two did.

Given your graphic description of some of the other worthy citizens at the event, that would hardly be surprising.

Anyway, I'm glad you had such a good time, mixing with like-minded people.

That is, of course, people who have a single-track obsession with what they believe.

To me, as you well know, your particular obsession is not fundamentally different to that of Supreme Master Television.

Dear_Pericles,
regarding that encounter, please keep_in_mind, that while my explanation may have missed some of the_nuances, I went to considerable effort to extract truth rather than simply what I 'wanted' to hear. I didn't introduce myself as 'missionary' until after a fair bit of discussion, asking general questions.
As you can hopefully appreciate, the shallowness and triteness of simply engaging in such an experience just so I could then say "ner ner told ya told ya" here..is something I was accutely aware of.
No, believe it or not, in all sincerity, I was not looking for something like that.
The reason and timing of me sharing that I'm a missionary is important. The only reason I mentioned that was so that 'after' reading me the verse in question, and then confirming the 'Islamic position' with Surah 19:88 which is stronger still, was to communicate effectively that in Christ, we can, and do, love our 'enemies'.

With you being a secular/atheist person, I should not expect you to appreciate the inner feelings of one who lives in this realm, so your response is not unexpected, and I have no wish to feel harsh towards you for it.

Only a fellow believer could appreciate how one feels when grasping the hand of ones enemy, and expressing Gods love to them in mood and word.

Please keep in mind, these souls were from diverse backgrounds, but all were Arab and Afgan and speak Arabic as virtually their native tongue.

The issue of female children being sexually consumnated in marraige was also confirmed in this, but not by anything they said,-the Quran they gave me included a bracketed note "Because they are immature" after 'those who have not had their courses' but for whom the 3 month waiting period applied.(to see if they are pregnant)

But lets not get bogged down with that. There is no need to argue something further with you, which is confirmed from reliable sources.
When I mentioned 'Ibn Kathir' their faces glowed with respect and they knew and respected Maududi also.

Lets_move_on, much more at the MBS event.

Fractelle.. ur right, you only have my version, please refer to my last post to Pericles.

Lets not labor this, I don't see much to be gained with you or Pericles or CJ when the level of prejudice and/or cynicism is so high.. You could all do the same research I've done, and then go and ask people in the know, and cross check answers with other sources. I imagine though that the responses would be determined largely by how the questions were framed, and.. whether the person asked was knowledgable. Ok..nuff said.

MBS..continued.. this little discovery blew me away. But before I make this 'startling revelation' :) consider this...

DOGS.. are, pack animals and meat eaters. "Fact"

but on 'Supreme Masters' web site, there is this:

<<Upon learning of Mr. Mohamed Shahidullah’s noble work, (of caring for stray animals) our Association members in Hong Kong immediately sent him 100 bags of “Lively Doggie” vegetarian pet food so that he can feed his animal friends with a better and healthier kind of food>>
http://www.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/gv/

So.. apparently, God (who made dogs meat eaters) is now telling his 'direct contact' that they should all be "vegetarians" :)

Check this out!
http://veganpet.com.au/articles/?page_id=7

Seems to me that these people want to re-construct animal reality.
But why would they try to make meat eating animals into vegetarians?

Does this possibly show just how far Peta would eventually go?

Overall, I was stunned by the veritable plethora of 'alternative religion'...

But one other observation which touched me, -all people we spoke with, and who passed by, seemed to have a very friendly outlook. Disagreement was always gracious. But the very fact of the exhibition and the numbers attending, show a sense of searching and longing in many hearts for answers and something more.

Boaz, I hate to be picky (no, really), but you seem to be in one of your self-contradictory moods again.

>>while my explanation may have missed some of the_nuances, I went to considerable effort to extract truth rather than simply what I 'wanted' to hear.<<

But you then admit to the reality of what you are doing in the very next post...

>>I imagine though that the responses would be determined largely by how the questions were framed, and.. whether the person asked was knowledgable.<<

And please try to understand that statements like this one, where you admit to fudging the question, are calculated to raise the cynicism quotient more than just a tad:

>>The issue of female children being sexually consumnated in marraige was also confirmed in this, but not by anything they said -the Quran they gave me included a bracketed note...<<

How convenient, this annotation. Why did you not frame a question around it? Do you still have the Quran, by the way? What other bracketed notes are there to confirm your worst suspicions about Islam?

You might care also to expand on this a little.

>>Only a fellow believer could appreciate how one feels when grasping the hand of ones enemy<<

Was this feeling reserved only for the Muslim contingent, or do you consider all of the other booth operators to be your enemy? After all, as you pointed out...

>>I was stunned by the veritable plethora of 'alternative religion'<<

Here's a quick thought for you: what is it, do you think, that drives people to alternative religions, when there are already plenty of well-established ones to go around?

Might they not be somewhat put off, for example, by the precedent in front of them of two religions who consider each other "enemies"?

Interestingly, as an atheist I don't think of either Christianity or Islam - or any of the "plethora of alternative religions", for that matter - as my enemy.

Which makes me feel oddly virtuous.

Boaz

"You could all do the same research I've done, and then go and ask people in the know, and cross check answers with other sources."

Listen carefully, I have worked, fraternised and am friends with Muslim people. Until 5 years ago I lived in Brunswick - significant Muslim population - without encountering any problems with the Muslims I met every day. I would no more think of interrogating any of these people than I would Hindus, Buddhists or Flyingspaghettists. I am even reasonable to the regular intrusion of Christians to my front door (although my SOH does getter the better of me occasionally).

I believe people are entitled to be treated with respect - irrespective of race, creed or gender.

I know that the suggestion of "How would you feel if interrogated by fundys of another religion”, is entirely moot, as you do love to proselytise.

I treat others as I find them, Boaz, if I am treated with courtesy and respect, then whatever religion they belong to doesn't even enter into any significance for me. I would no more go on a crusade such as yours than I would attend a KKK meeting and announce, “I am a jewish black lezzo”.

You, noted yourself, "But one other observation which touched me, -all people we spoke with, and who passed by, seemed to have a very friendly outlook. Disagreement was always gracious."

Of course people were friendly - what did you expect, Uzis at 20 paces? You were at a festival where everyone had the goal of meeting and promoting the best their beliefs had to offer. See what happens when people of diverse backgrounds get together? They get along.

All your interminable fearmongering is for nothing. People are simply people and for most of the time we all get along very well indeed.

Dear David,

If you purposely go out looking for failings within any context, you will undoubtedly find them.
But to what end?

The Bible isn't perfect either - and can be misinterpreted, if taken
literally.

Hi Pericles.

the point about how to frame questions is important.

If one wishes to obtain a particular answer, one simply includes the answer in the question. -like leading the witness.

Even though there is a specific piece of information about which we want to know the feeling of the other person, we have to place questions such that they are not going to just tell us what we want to hear.

On the bracketed bits, and the Quran, I see there are a lot of them, usually provided to make the text more understandable in english.
Of course I still have it.

Something I find curious. You say you don't have any particular interest in either Islam or Christianity, and are an atheist.
Then, you don't actually dispute 'what' I say, but babble about 'solutions/problems' etc.

While you might not be concerned about other members of the community holding beliefs which ultimately place you at a very low place, even dangerous; other people who have been on the rough end of that religious stick 'do'..and it surprises me that you don't seem to tweak to this.

Perhaps you havn't been discriminated against because of your beliefs?
Have you ever faced the possibility that all of your years of superannuation could be 'vanished' simply because you chose to say.. become a Christian? From that kind of 'mild' expression of persecution, you might ask 'on what' is such an act based?

That's where knowing 'the faith', and how it's beliefs translate into public policy comes in handy.

So, that's where we are confronted with your 'inciting hatred' and my 'alerting, raising awareness'. We seem to always clash at that point.

Hopefully one day, you will take the time to study some of these things and not just use bluster and blabber to down those you disagree with.

Hi Fractelle.

There is something you miss in all that love and warmth and community spirit that you spoke of.

Out of the hundreds of stalls and stands at the MBS event, there was only one from what I gather which has a holy book which names me and all those like me and singles us out for 'special treatment'.

(Dear Foxy.. the New Testament does not do this it implores love for the lost.)

So, I understand your position, and realize you don't share mine.
But having a different view from me, ...should that result in you doing to me the very thing you accuse me of in regard to others?

Could you warmly shake my hand if we met?

Think about that for a bit.....or.. is there 'hate' in your heart?

Could you do so out of concern for my well being? I could toward you, and I did with these fellows. How we treat others in person is one thing. How we discuss others beliefs is entirely different. Presumably you don't accept child marriage..(specially by old codgers) so, even though you don't see evidence of that kind of thing happening among those of this faith you meet in daily life, and no one of that faith has asked for your 8 yr old daughter as wife, does not change the fact of it being an accepted value 'in' that faith.

I've never advocated hating Muslims, I've pointed out some Islamic beliefs that are of serious social concern and dangerous to me and mine. (and moreso to you)

Strange as it might sound, have a read of the brief history of Ankor Wat.

(Less than half a page, maybe 3 paragraphs)

http://goasia.about.com/cs/azsiteindex/a/aa031700_3.htm
There are lessons there for all of us about how human society functions. Note especially the date 1431 in relation to earlier immigration of the Thai's.

I can imagine 'Fractelliwan, Periclayavan, and CJ Khmergan all attacking Boazithan at the Temple, and telling him he is up himself about the 'threat of the Thais' :)

Your discombobulation is beginning to show, Boaz.

>>Hopefully one day, you will take the time to study some of these things and not just use bluster and blabber to down those you disagree with<<

Bluster and blabber, eh? Mighty fightin' words, coming from your good self. And where do I do this?

>>you don't actually dispute 'what' I say, but babble about 'solutions/problems' etc.<<

Oh, but I do dispute what you say, Boaz. I'm rather surprised that you hadn't noticed.

I dispute - constantly - your personal, idiosyncratic interpretations of snippets from someone else's religious guidebook, and your blanket refusal to countenance any alternative.

I also - perpetually - dispute your right to then use these personal, idiosyncratic interpretations of someone else's religious handbook to incite fear, loathing and hatred in simple souls, in order to further your own evangelistic - one might almost say apocalyptic - ambitions.

>>Perhaps you havn't been discriminated against because of your beliefs?<<

Absolutely I have.

Not, of course, for my religious beliefs, because I have none. But I suffer my share of discrimination for my political beliefs, in that I don't always get my own way.

Because that's ultimately what this boils down to, Boaz, isn't it?.

You, getting your own way.

You believe that the world should revolve around your religion. All our laws should reflect this, and we should all bow down to the God of your choosing.

Fortunately, our society here in Australia does not operate along those lines. Otherwise we'd be no better than those fiercely Islamic countries where you've virtually no choice but to conform.

And we wouldn't want to live like that, Boaz, would we?

Oh, hang on, I rather think you would, wouldn't you?

Ban Islamic schools, tear down the mosques, expel those who will not recant and take up Christianity.

That's pretty much how you'd like it all to pan out, is it not?

Am I wrong?

Dear David,

I'd not only shake your hand but give you a big hug as well - were we to ever meet. And I certainly don't have hate in my heart. That would have a negative affect on my psyche - which I can ill afford.

I'm not an expert on Islam - but I've always believed that in order to understand any religion you need to study it more thoroughly, - because there are so many different versions being practiced around the globe.

We've talked about this subject before David, and you know that fundamentalists exist in all faiths - not just Islam.

You've expressed your fears concerning this religion quite a few times on this Forum - all I'm asking you to do - is broaden your perspective and not lump every Islamist into the same pile of 'fanaticism.'

But perhaps your fear is too great for you to be able to do that?

Boaz

An important part of my last post was about treating others with respect and courtesy. Something you wilfully never do, if you disagree them.

For example, you stated:

"There is something you miss in all that love and warmth and community spirit that you spoke of."

Boaz, YOU claimed that the festival was one of friendship - not I. But you SELECTIVELY used my comment to dismiss my entire post - after you had initiated the topic no less.

No courtesy or respect from you there.

Further on in your last post you refer to Pericles, CJ and I as follows:

"I can imagine 'Fractelliwan, Periclayavan, and CJ Khmergan all attacking Boazithan at the Temple, and telling him he is up himself about the 'threat of the Thais' :)"

You, in you own mind, have set yourself up as the beleaguered prophet under constant attack from the infidels. OH you wish! I believe you are elevating your importance to a degree that only exists in your wildest fantasies.

1. You accosted two people at a festival and demanded they translate passages from the Quran that you had selected.

2. You expect to convince we here at OLO that these same hapless Muslims agreed with you that their INTERPRETATION was one of hostility to any who do not follow Allah.

It was a credit to these Muslims that they didn't treat you with the same lack of respect that you showed them and that you display to myself and others every day on OLO.

I am upset with you because you never actually consider anyone else's opinion unless they agree with you. You also denigrate others. Then you start whining about being attacked. What part of "treat others how you would like to be treated" don't you understand?

Hello Boazy,

Hope you don't start with the premise that every Muslim you meet is your enemy, whether you love them or not.

I have worked with Muslims in Indonesia. Each person I met was civil to me and respectful to their god. Good hosts. Apologised if it was necessary to speak in Indonesian rather than English.

Before returning to Oz, I was interviewed for Dean's position in Dubai. Appreciate that in the Middle East, there will be Muslim mirrors to a Christian Sells,i.e., fundamentalists.

Would you prefer a Christian theocracy or would you maintain things, as they are now? Here, I believe in the separation of Church and State.

Regards.

BOAZ probably doesn't mean to be hypocritical. He can't help himself because he just doesn't get it

"Loving your enemies in personal encounters, who curse you (in Allah's name, to your face) for what you believe, is not incompatible with seeking public policy adjustments which may limit the numbers of them migrating to your country or limit certain practices for those in the country. (preaching of certain anti Christian Anti Jew sentiments is an example)"

So as a Christian, he loves his enemies because that's what Jesus told him to do. But his love is given only if they stay away from his country or stop practising what their god tells them to do!

Duh?

"BOAZ probably doesn't mean to be hypocritical. He can't help himself because he just doesn't get it."

I have often wondered.

As I've explained to Boazy before, I did once have more interest in and sympathy for Christianity, before I "met" him. For me, as for a lot of people on OLO, Boazy makes God and Christ fairly ugly characters. He's never converted anyone here TO Christianity, but he has turned many people away from it. He knows this, as he's been told several times. He also knows he has made people more sympathetic to Islam that they would otherwise be, simply because of his own tenacious and virulent attacks.

Does he care? I don't think he even realises. I think, fundamentally, his ego is more important to him that his religion. What we all find most infuriating about Boazy is his patronisingness. I think it's most important to him to be patronising, to feel superior, to feel right. God comes second.

No, he doesn't mean to by hypocritical. He doesn't know he is.

Most Interesting responses!

Foxy.. u first..thanx mate.. and I'd give you a great big hug also :)

I think the biggest difficulty in this interaction is “communication and perception”.

Maybe the questions some of my critics should be asking are:

“How important and central to Islam are the ideas/beliefs that I mostly criticize”? (Look up “Shirk”) http://www.allaahuakbar.net/SHIRK/crime.htm

Pericles.. please check that. (connect it with 9:29 and 30 and 19:88)

“How likely is it that these beliefs will translate into behavior which can effect all or any of us”?

“How widespread are these beliefs among Muslims, and does the fact that they are friendly in day to day discourse in Brunswick mean they are not latent, and likely to become prominent over time”?

-Pericles “You want to tear down mosques”...
-For Fractelle its “You dismiss my entire post” (er..no, I just dismiss that “some friendly Muslims”=conclusive evidence about the core beliefs of the faith” do you see the difference? )

Then, Fractelle says “You_accosted..and_demanded” (after all, she was there and saw everything) Remember Fractelle... one of these blokes came up to our stand afterwards, and requested me explain “The Gospel”, and asked 'What problems do you have with Islam”.. This little piece of interaction is the one which gives the overall mood of the experience. If I just say 'he came to our stand'.. how was his mood? Based on your 'accosted' assessement of my approach, I guess you would say he “Marched up with defiant anger and 'demanded' I justify my 'accosting' and 'confess' the Gospel”? Err.....no.

I went to their stand, smiling, friendly, jovial. The Arab bloke from Oman who came to ours, came with curiosity, and was friendly, as was I.

Dear Vanilla.. I'd never let either Pastor Fred Phelps nor BD determine my understanding of Christ.
Learn of Him yourself.-I am not He.

You might however catch a glimpse from this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1nBSgkkS6M&amp;feature=related

Oliver. No, don't want Theocracy. I also believe in separation of Church and State.

There's something about that shirk stuff that rings a bell, Boaz.

Ah yes, here it is.

"I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me"

Hmmmm. I wonder where I found that. Sounds remarkably like the narrative you pointed out for Muslims:

"Unfortunately some Muslims have also fallen prey to this shirk. There are many from the Indian subcontinent who often call out for help upon saints and holy men who have passed away... Those who commit shirk by humanization give attributes to God which are more appropriate for human beings than an all-powerful Creator... By taking man away from the worship of Allah, it has led him to the worship of other men, leading to oppression and tyranny. By confining man to the narrowness of this world, it will deny him the vastness of the hereafter, which leads to justice and success. Therefore surely . . . . shirk is the ultimate crime."

As an impartial observer, I'd say that both religions are saying precisely the same thing to their followers. There's only one God. It's me. And you'd better remember that, or else.

Have I missed anything?

Hello Boazy,

Do presume that each Muslim you met is an enemy?

Muhammed's political situation was not unlike Moses. He had to develop a framework to unite people.

Moses has to stop a trekking, henothesit people on an alleged exodus from Eygpt to the Promised Land, from dumping their tribal volano god, via monotheism. It was logisticalt appropiate given the circumstances. Had history adopted a different path, it is possible that the volcano God god would have been dropped and an agricultural next worshipped in the volcano god's sted. He would not have wanted his flock "jumping the gun". Herein, we see the worth of the theistic commandments. Else, there would have been factionalism.

Muhhamed did have the chance of heading-off factionalism, the Arab tribes we already ununited. He needed to unify the tribes against common threats; the Persians, Christians and Jews. After Muhammed's alleged ascension, we find factionalism creeping back into Islam, stemming from disputes of whom shall replace Muhammed.

Jesus is a different case. He seems to have been trying to establish himself as Head of the Hours of David, via organic growth. The House of David ministered to the Geniles, who, even after conversion to Judaism, were regarded as second-class Jews.

Jesus didn't take the tact of Moses or Muhhammed, whom, may have attempted to unify the sects.

Quite rightly, Jesus had the smarts to realise [even in Roman times] ancient Judaism was already monotheist and the sects were arguing about the details. As it happened, Judaism was to become Christian Judaism long after Jesus died. Owing to Hadrian's exile of the Jews from the Holy Lands, Gentile leaders were required, as a means overcome restrictions against the movement orthodox Jews [religion not ethnicity]. In the first instance Jews wore Jesus' clothing in Gentile guise to gain entry the Holy Lands. Christrian dogma was still two hundred yeaars away

Dear Oly.... must explain the Christian view of what an 'enemy' is. For the Christian, an enemy first and foremost, is an object of love, not hate. They are enemies not because 'we' hate them..but because of their animosity to Christ and His Word and His disciples.

So, even if I regard 'all Muslims' as 'enemies'.. it does not mean any ill feeling toward them from us. (Political action is not 'personal')

Now that Pericles has taken the trouble to read some source material (at last), it should be abundantly clear to him, and all others, that "Islam" as a faith, is an enemy of Christ. (and consequently all His followers)

Foxy mate.. please read that "Shirk" link.. to see how detailed, lengthy and prominent is this idea in Islam. It's not some 'back corner' doctrine.. it is absolutely central. They have even 'minor' Shirk and 'Major' Shirk.

Shirk by humanization. (Ascribing human qualities to Allah)
Shirk by Deification (Ascribing divine qualities to a 'human')
Shirk by association. (Associating any 'other' with Allah)
Shirk by Negation. (denying God... oops..that includes PERICLES)

In that last one, they mention specifically Jainism and Buddhism.

PERICLES.. you need some more attention here.

If you never saw it before, you could not 'not' see it now. Irrespective of your own feelings about the foundations of either Islam or Christianity of any other faith.. as you said "Impartial(Atheist) observer"... you can surely see why a Christian AND an Atheist like Paul L may have concerns over the growth of Islam in Australia.

You would notice from your reading, that this hate of Shirk is in the context of the 'Islamic state'..and you must already realize that all Muslims are looking to establishing an Islamic state under which they might live.

Not that this means they are all rampaging jihadi's planning to blow up the MCG during grand final....no..but u know as well as I do, that people feel most comfortable under a social system which reflects their beliefs.

So..some (the majority) will simply 'acquiesce'..while others will be more active politically and in Da'wa.(calling people to Islam)

Boazy: << ...you must already realize that all Muslims are looking to establishing an Islamic state under which they might live >>

Really? How do you know that?

<< Not that this means they are all rampaging jihadi's planning to blow up the MCG during grand final....no..but u know as well as I do, that people feel most comfortable under a social system which reflects their beliefs. >>

So under that reasoning, all Christians are "looking to establishing a Christian state under which they might live"? I thought you claimed you support the separation of Church and State.

Hypocrite.

Boazy,

"So, even if I regard 'all Muslims' as 'enemies'.. it does not mean any ill feeling toward them from us. (Political action is not 'personal')" - Boaz

I get the love not hate bit. You too would join the Hippies and put flowers in the National Guard's guns.

Can I rightfully delete "So, even if" from the above statement?

My understanding is that Muhammed merely demoted Jesus to the status of prophet, presumably thinking Christians had over-estimated his purpose. That would a long-way short of vilfication. Would not Abraham be favourably regarded by Muslims as the source of three major religions? Wasn't Muhammed perhaps just re-tuning things, playing the bass and andthe treble, until satisfied with an outcome suitable for his needs, unify the Arab tribes by making them feel special. If so, Islam has shades of the Judaeo OT: e.g., the 'Chosen People'.

The problem with monotheism is that it always assumes a previleged
perspective, not to be doubted. The Egyption, Greek and Roman systems involving syncretion of gods was less hostile, cross-culturally.

The Muslims I know are too busy making a living to feed their families and getting on with their lives to keep obsessing about this sort of stuff.

It seems that some people keep wanting to raise differences as an issue instead of similarities, and in a way that grants some sort of moral superiority over the other.

Likewise many just don't feel the obligation to speak out against things that are happening on the other side of the world and have nothing to do with them, just as the local Christians don't get out and march over atrocities carried out by members of their particular faith.

Following your logic is like watching a dog chase a rabbit, Boaz.

The rapid changes of direction are dazzling to the observer, but ultimately the rabbit's caught.

>>For the Christian, an enemy first and foremost, is an object of love, not hate... it should be abundantly clear to [Pericles], and all others, that "Islam" as a faith, is an enemy of Christ.<<

Ergo, Boaz, Islam is an object of... er, love, to the Christian?

Well, you had me well and truly fooled there, Boaz.

From the volume and consistency of your posts to this forum, I could have sworn that there is a significant animosity between the two of you.

So forgive me if I consign that particular paragraph to the barf-bucket, Boaz.

It has all the sincerity of a rat with a gold tooth selling snake oil.

The sentences contain words, but no meaning.

You manage to combine the cloying sentimentality of a Valentines Day Card with all the passionate conviction of a real estate advertisement.

So, let's agree that you are merely being Orwellian in your definition of love, and pass on to more concrete issues.

What's all this fuss about the shirk?

>>Shirk by Negation. (denying God... oops..that includes PERICLES)<<

Give me one good reason why my denying their God - along, incidentally, with every other one you can think of - should cause me the slightest discomfort, let alone a fully-formed "oops".

No, Boaz, the discomfort is all yours, not mine. You choose your religion, and have to live with the fact that it is different from all the other ones.

To normal, balanced people, this is simply another one of the many inescapable things one has to live with. Like not being French, or having ingrowing toenails, or actually enjoying listening to Abba.

I realize that religionists are required to fear other religions, it goes with the territory. Religions are a threat to each other because they require only faith, and therefore cannot be discussed factually.

So you and your fellow Christian evangelists may have "concerns over the growth of Islam in Australia".

I don't.

Dear Oly....

your view lacks the intesity required by the subject matter.

Mohammad did not 'merely demote' Jesus.. he claimed for himself that which is Christ's alone "The Way"..and the final, "only" way at that.
His 'demotion' as you call it, is gutting and disembowelling the absolute core of the Christian faith, it is an attack which can only be described as 'Satanic'.

I understand that ur looking at this issue from a secular or non Christian perspective.. perhaps you can appreciate how crucial it is for Christians by thinking of something which is utterly precious and pivotal in your own belief system, and then reflecting on how you might feel if someone came along and declared it totally invalid.

Your view of history and Jesus role in it probably impacts your perception of this issue.

CJ.. no, that is not the same.. 'that' reasoning is not applicable to Christians in the sense that while we would indeed prefer a 'Christian flavored' democracy, and laws which support our values, we can only ever arrive there (or depart from it) by democratic means. As I've been laboring a bit recently 'There is no.."Christian" state in the Bible. However.. Islam by nature IS.. 'a state'. That's the difference. I don't have to 'know' anything more than that.
Muslims who are not seeking (either passively or actively) an Islamic state would be described as 'hypocrites and apostates' most likely by their own scholars.

WOBBLES. When the differences are, where a 'central core belief' of Islam is attacking the 'central belief' of Christians, and considers Christian belief 'The ultimate crime'...you can even speak about 'similarities'?

PERICLES. By "Islam" in that context I mean 'Muslims'....
My terminology there was less than clear.
Your lack of concern probably arises from your lack of experience of being persecuted based on being an atheist.
But once you see 'Sayyid' promoted over you... and then Ahmad.. and you languish for years at "Static" you would feel it. (As Malaysians do)

NEW SUBJECT. "VEGETARIAN PETS"

VEGETARIAN PETS.. I didn't really want to get bogged down about the opening couple of posts.. and I am interested to explore the thoughts of others about this matter.

It seems that there is a growing industry out there in this field.

I became aware of it through the Supreme Master TV booth at the MBS.

It strikes me as rather odd that some/many? vegetarians are projecting their personal eating habits on animals which have lived by instinct since time immemorial.. Dogs.. from wolves.. pack animals... eat..MEAT.. as do cats.

It seems to me that 'animal love' is very twisted when it projects human vegetarian sentimentality onto their eating habits.

http://veganpet.com.au/articles/?page_id=7

What are they thinking?

On the vegetarian pets thing, I concur. I don't like it when anyone forces their unnecessary or detrimental religious habits on those who aren't in a position to reject it.

So forcing a dog to be a vegetarian I think, is cruel. Just as I vehemently disagree with those of certain religious beliefs who would prefer to deny their children a blood transfusion than step outside their religious framework.

To a far lesser degree, I also don't like it when parents force their children to go to church, but by the same token, I wouldn't like parents to stop their children from going to church if the kid wanted to.
I'd have some sympathy for a parent who was worried that some religious fruit loop had been in the ear of the child telling them stupid stories, but I guess some religious parents would regard an atheist or agnostic espousing the stupidity of religion in the same vein. I guess the solution there would be for the parent to go with them.

In regard to the earlier subject - boaz, you keep stressing how polite and nice the whole encounter was, but you reject that Islam is harmless, despite the warm and cordial atmosphere.
You also seem to reject the idea that despite a friendly meeting, your interpretation of their religion may create a more hostile impression than what the reality of these people appears to be from your cordial discussion. You also posit the notion in the other thread, that despite there being significant dispute over interpretations of religious texts, there is still an objective truth within, that you appear to be skilled at deciphering.

Starting to see why this all seems a little dodgy yet?

Dear Boazy,

Thanks for your above reply.

Cow [2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. - Koran

Boazy: What is the alleged god Allah saying here, via Mohammed?

To me, it would seem this diety is represented as being, say, more panoramic, if you like, than the gods of Abraham &#1490;&#1488;&#1464;&#1496; &#1508;&#1471;&#1493;&#1503; &#1488;&#1463;&#1489;&#1471;&#1512;&#1492;&#1501; [Principles of Faith], Moses [Law] & NT [Messiah]. Herein, said Allah, would seem to be chiding other religions for their exclusiveness, perhaps. The relationship of Jewish and Christian et al. individuals to Allah appears to be aside from their religious group.

The concept of Oneness, as a kernel feature of God, is dominant in all three major monotheistic religions, basically by definition. Said Allah would also seem to be against polytheism as a result. Assuming Mohammed framed these scriptures, it seems odd that he was unaware, perhaps, lacking the necessary scholarship, that the OT Hewbrews were henotheists, as Moses encountered.

I thought an interfaith experience was all about seeing the similarities between peoples of differing faiths, not identifying enemies.

I'm going to have to set my kids straight on their positive experiences with interfaith experiences. They got it all wrong didn't they Boazy?

Boazy, you may ridicule any other faith and shake your head that there are people who can believe the most unbelievable things. So you should be able to walk a mile in the shoes of a non-Christian, including a Muslim, who still treat you with courtesy and respect though you regard a virgin giving birth and a man dying on the cross, then coming alive again as THE cornerstone of your faith. There are those who cannot see any difference in the unlikeliness of that with that of believing we descend from aliens.

Truly, you vastly overestimate the whole enemy_of_Christianity thing.

The monotheistic faiths with their man made rules, books and discourses have this one thing in common: fear of losing followers to the other side. An effective way of stopping anybody from leaving any organisation is through making the other real scary, real dangerous, the 'other' slightly less human-basically the enemy, who are out to destroy you.

Propaganda is used by political parties and religions alike. It is man made and of this Earth.

Explore your own spiritual beliefs, practice living your own life according to your spiritual beliefs because they give meaning to your own life. Focusing so much on others and what they think or say of your belief, knowledge (or lack of) will not make what you believe more or less valid.

You want others to see the greatness of what you believe? Then show by example. And here's a hint Boazy: humility is a hallmark of greatness.

Telling us you lovingly shook the hand of your enemy is not good enough. For all we know you were just too scared to do otherwise.

yvonne: << Telling us you lovingly shook the hand of your enemy is not good enough. For all we know you were just too scared to do otherwise. >>

Too funny. I can just see old Boazy, quaking in his socks and sandals, anticipating the potential martyrdom or curses that might result from his confrontation with his "enemy".

I think his success rate at converting people to Christianity via his "MBS" activities would be pretty much on par with his success rate here - i.e. zilch.

No matter, Boazy obviously feels very pleased with himself. Such courage and fortitude in the face of sheer adversity!

Dear Yvonne.. "too scared to do otherwise" innnndeed :) 'for all you know'....

but now you have me curious.. I'm most interested in your 'mental image' of 'me' :) am I a short skinny puny old dag with narrow stooping shoulders..and no hair.. all shrivelled up hobbling around. unable to 'punch his way out of a wet paper bag' as they say. C'mon..fess up now.. you must have some kind of image there. *smile*.. I'm intensely curious.

I suppose I partly have myself to blame for that little crack, because the carnal mind may well "interpret" some of my posts in a rather physically beligerant way.. but then, that's because they don't knowwww me and it's a case of 'projection/transference'.

I say 'carnal' mind in the nicest way...as in 'not Christian' in the sense Jesus and Paul spoke of.

CJ joins the assault "quaking in his socks and sandals" :) maybe I was 'quacking' instead?

The point you dear folks continually miss.. (still) is that sharing the Gospel is not about beating up the unbeliever until he submits..its about calling men and women to repentance from sin and faith in Christ.

You don't embark on such things if ur fearful and trembling.. the possibility of being hurt goes with the territory, you know that b4 u begin. I recall Kings Cross.. at the Alamain fountain.. a small group of Christians I was with.. one was speaking and a bloke came up and king hit him.. down for the count.
Do you really think I'm a fraidy cat given that at least CJ knows I stood among 25,000 unionists at flinders street while a woman was trying (unsucessfully) to urge them to whack me? How in the world would 4 or 5 'men in white' scare me.

If I approach people in person, I bring self control and restraint. There's no reason to worry about physical retribution.
I made the point I wanted to make, (Grace/Gods love) and had some interpretations of their book confirmed and amplified.

"SUCCESS?" a human term. God works in His own ways and time.

I guess it largely depends on your perspective here, Boaz.

>>Mohammad did not 'merely demote' Jesus.. he claimed for himself that which is Christ's alone "The Way"..and the final, "only" way at that.
His 'demotion' as you call it, is gutting and disembowelling the absolute core of the Christian faith, it is an attack which can only be described as 'Satanic'.<<

You could always dismiss it from your mind by saying "well, that's your opinion, and I guess you are entitled to it."

Ah, but of course you won't allow yourself to do that.

>>perhaps you can appreciate how crucial it is for Christians by thinking of something which is utterly precious and pivotal in your own belief system, and then reflecting on how you might feel if someone came along and declared it totally invalid.<<

Boaz, you are most welcome to declare invalid any and every "something that is utterly precious and pivotal" to my belief system, and I would ascribe to it exactly the weight and importance that it deserves.

For a start, on what authority, I might ask, do you declare my beliefs invalid?

You might then waffle on about your God giving you the authority, to which I might reply "phooey to your God - you believe in him, but I don't"

At which point I would simply acknowledge that you think differently about the topic, and walk away.

I wouldn't, by the way, try to change your mind. Why should I?

What puzzles me - and probably the vast majority of non-militant religious evangelists - is why you guys don't do this.

After all, I barrack for a different football club, vote for a different political party, use a different airline and drive a different car. Why do these opinions and loyalties - which are also lifestyle choices that I make for myself - not upset you, but my choice of religion somehow affects you personally.

I can understand you disagreeing with my choices. But I cannot for the life of me see how those choices might do you harm. Or even the slightest irritation.

Pericles,

What also intersts me is; why Jesus and the Christian godhead?

Unlike Boazy, were I to investigate divinity. I might start with:

1. Is there a Creator?
2. Is that creator a god?

Assuming, it were possible to answer these two questions, then, I would move on to the contest of the claimants: e.g, Allah, JC, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl, Amon...; Wherein, if 1 & 2, are true; it does not necessarily follow "any" of these claimants are valid. Claims need to be tested.

Yet, religionists pick a god, then develop their faith, without any precusor foundation. Typically, a self-referencing phenomenon(a) is held existant, because it says so; only, to be reforced by indwelling within the aura of the phenomenon, without really looking for non-confirmatory evidence.

As you know, I have tried several times with Bozy, Sells and Co. to present a conceptuual model of god, but, none has been forthcoming, regrettably.

Regrettable, because, if a model were presented, better hypotheses could could be developed to facilitate discourse between believing and non-believing communities. With regards Christianity, Islam et al., scriptures would need to sit "inside" the framework and not generate the framework. That is, "A Sentamental Bloke" is a product of C.J. Dennis, not C.J. Dennis a product of " A Sentamental Bloke".

We need to tether the text to the writer, else, at best, we can claim is subsistence, vis-a-vis existence, and, Micky Mouse, can do that, without Disney, who is his, no, its, creator. Mickey Mouse does not exist, it subsists.

Thus, we need to know, how god exists [Acknowldgement: Peter Sellick, but Peter used in a different context.].

Boazy, how does God exist?

- Explain god how god exists?
- What is the manner of its existence?
- How is God composed? [please no ousia or ectoplasm :-)]
- What is the purpose of its existence?

N.B., "How does" is different to just "Does". If one maintains "Does", one should demonstrate, or, at least, be able to approximate, "How does". Else, what is the basis of, "Does"? Scripture? Scripture can only take us to subsistence, at most.


O.

Hi Pericles.. well I thought we covered that ground oh.. probably a million times by now.

You are quite adept at looking up my old posts.. you will find it all there.

I can simply disagree with people who want to turn their meat eating pets into vegetarians..but if they have a political agenda to alter the law so that NO-one can feed meat to their pets... then we have a problem do we not?

We are no longer able to just agree to disagree and walk away.. nope.. we have been criminalized for feeding our pet dog that which all it's instinct and habit dictate it should eat.

That's where the problem comes.

We in Victoria have 'tasted' the thin end of that political wedge with the RRT and I probably know a heck of a lot more than you, about what went on in attempts to ammend it and how such attempts were met by Mr Bracks and his dodgy company..for purely political reasons.
Not being arrogant there, but we in the various churches did a lot of work to try to ammend it.. not exactly front page stuff.

You know all the issues I've mentioned over time about Islamic beliefs.. each of those beliefs constitutes potential legislation, whether by 'preference deal making' in close elections or...outright brute force if their numbers reach that point.

By making it political, we avoid the 'lynch mob' mentality, believe it or not. Those things usually happen AFTER the horse has bolted and people suddenly wake up to the facts of the matter and that its too late...and react emotionally and accordingly.

Cronulla was quite avoidable.. not by 'racist whites' pulling their heads in but by adequate and affirmative policing of the symptom stage.

Do you think PETA will not (is not) try(ing) to force legislation to achieve their goals?

But then, they are not telling me my faith is cursed or that I should be punished in 'this life and the next' for what I and many others believe.

Can you imagine the reaction to banning recreational fishing on 'animal_cruelty' grounds?

BOAZ says: "The point you dear folks continually miss.. (still) is that sharing the Gospel is not about beating up the unbeliever until he submits..its about calling men and women to repentance from sin and faith in Christ."

Now I'm more confused than before. Are men and women called to repent both for having sinned and having faith in Christ?

Hi there

I'm one of those single-minded fantical followers of Supreme Master Ching Hai, the most wealthy Guru in the universe. Sseriously. I am. And I love it. Here's why...
-I have felt a little of Gods Direct Contact since meditating with Her method. I don't care to say we have a monopoly on God though. Neither does She care to.
-She created a totally non-denominational globally FREE TV channel to help bring the world closer together, at her own expense.
-She makes heaps of money then redistributes it in ways that help everyone including disaster releif.

Oh how wonderfully weird. The money comes from Her art, music and lecture DVDs bought by us and we love them. She represents the physical manifestation of my inner self, which is one with everyone else's. I'm happy to hand over the cash because I know that these days, She works for the benefit of the world without hardly time to sleep or eat.

Can we all be so weird?

Spikey,

I don't know about you, but, perhaps my family and friends are simply boring. No murders or thieves. Most just lead a life caring for each other and themselves, and are respectful of the community and others.
My expereince, I suspect, typical.

Of course, there is crime, but the peak hour train from "a" to "b", methinks, carries just ordinary folk going about the business of life, without having sinning perptually on their mind, as the Christians would have us believe.

O.

Dear David,

As I tried to point out to you earlier - you really have nothing to fear from Islam or any other influence.

"It is what comes out of a man that defiles him. For from inside, out of man's heart, come evil thoughts, acts of fornication, of theft, murder, adultery, ruthless greed, and malice; fraud, indecency, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly; these evil things all come from inside, and they defile the man."
Mark 7:21

It is what's within your own heart that matters.

Sorry Boazy, I have absolutely no mental image of you. It has never occurred to me once that it was of any relevance whatsoever in relation to what you have to say.

I listen to what people have to say when there is a discussion going on, I couldn't care less what they look like.

What does looks or size have to do with real,emphasis on real here, courage anyway? Besides,one Christian vs two Muslims could be an uneven physical match. No matter how big or small said Christian or Muslims. You were outnumbered for starters.

But more importantly than what these 'enemies' could have done to you, what would the other stall holders have to say about a Christian who doesn't lovingly shake his enemies hand? Christians are supposed to love their enemies. It's one thing some Christians love to proclaim loudly about themselves, even as they drop cluster bombs and lay land mines. Probably blessed beforehand, so they can lovingly kill the enemy, lurking everywhere.

There are times Boazy, when I really feel that you desperately need the notion of 'enemies' who persecute you and your faith in order for you to be able to demonstrate to others how you can 'love' them anyway. It's the mainstay to support the superiority of your religion above all others and your personal practice of Christianity.

Nobody understands what's it like to feel love for their enemies, only a committed Christian like yourself. Ergo, if you have no enemies, or think you have none, you cannot practice and know about this. Or if you think you do have enemies, a non-Christian would not be able to love them.

Hi Boazy,

Been busy into late at night.

I do worry about you. That is, please don't let your concerns about Islam overtake and threaten your well-being.

In addition, it might be inappropriate speak of your god and their god, rather than the alternative, to say each religion has a belief in their covenant with the one god. This position is not necessarily polytheism, just different arrangements the one god.

Fundamentalism exists in Christianity, Islam and Judaeism. As mentioned in two previous posts, post-Nicaea Constantine's crew acted much like the Taliban in destroying the statues and artistic works of alternative cultures. That doesn't mean every Christian one meets in the street is looney-tunes, nor does it follow most devout Christians would now behave in the rampacious manner of the historical church.

If somesome came another planet, it would wrong of the LG Woman to judge the all peoples based on the actions of Charles Manson. Sure some nut-cases flew into the World Trade Centre, but that does not mean the guy sitting next to you on a plane and wearing a khaftan is a terrorist.

Of course, there are issues of security concerning Islam, but addressing threats from "the few" is task of intelligence agencies, who are there to protect us.

What is dangerous is having a Christian fundamentalist and an Islamic fundamentalism eye-balling each before the draw.

Yvonne, I believe that you have struck at the heart of the matter in your post.

DB, as much as those who scourge or flagellate themselves for their faith, sees himself as a martyr. Each time someone posts against him its as if he is lapping it up and adding it to some kind of score card. It allows him to see himself as being persecuted for his faith and standing firm like St. Stephen with the arrows. There is something inherently masochistic in it which is, I think, the reason why the word "creepy" has been applied to him on more than one occasion.

As he has admitted more than once, those who are not with him are his enemies...his story (to CJ)of defying the multitude and being unafraid because his cause was just is something he re-enacts every day on these threads. Daily he defies the enemy. It doesn't matter actually what the content of peoples objections are - as has been proved and commented on countless times - it just goes down on his metaphorical scorecard: Brother B has stood valiant against the dark hordes once again.

Has anyone ever heard him: give comfort (as opposed to quoting a piece of scripture?) Reassurance? Apologise? Admit he is wrong? Show charity, generosity of spirit, humbleness or forbearance?

No. Because these are the Christian virtues against which no-one could argue and his position as Defender of the Faith would not be needed. He doesn't even realise that it is not his faith that is being attacked but his attitude.

So much..soooo much to work with.. wonderful contributions.. and a Ching Hai-ist also :) this is becoming more interesting by the minute.

Perciles..
"Human Linguistic Dynamic" have a guess! "the way that language (linguistic) varies and changes with context and time (dynamic)I chose 3 words!

"Compelling" Actually Pericles, as you said, it's a matter of perspective. Agreed.
To enhance that perspective, ask this. "How much in non Biblical writings/early historians is written about Simon Magus?" ZILCH...
Yet see how he figures in the early church writings!
http://www.pointsoftruth.com/SimonMagus.html
See the section "What Luke tells us about Simon" (don't know much about this web site)
Then see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Magus

From this we may conclude reasonably that 'religious figures' were of little interest to Roman historians except where they represented a Political threat/movement in the eyes of the power holders.

CRITICISM of other faiths. No..its not shakey at all, as I pointed out at the beginning, the criticism is based on the ACCEPTED foundation documents (of all) not the 'reliability' of those texts, which to the eyes of the believing beholders are above question.

Oly.. to much for this thread mate (your list of God questions; keeeep focused:) But the topic is not 'me scared of Islam' its 'how to interpret texts' :)

ALEXTABABA..how in this wide world did you find this thread ? :) I'm amazed.

Dear Foxy... My fears are more for our country than me personally. Please remember, I've lived under this stuff, and know it from first hand experience.

Yvonne.. if you don't have any image of me, then why speak about me in ways which suggest you do ? :) I've no idea where you get the timid fearful me from. Please don't link 'cluster bombs' with 'Christianity' .. naughty girl. Readddd the Bible then see what you 'can' say about it.

Dear ROMANY..no mate..I lap up the fact that we are discussing important aspects of eternal issues."I" don't really matter.
"Dark Hoardes" :) good 1.
Sorry..Pericles and CJ attack 'my faith' on a daily basis. You do read don't u?

....continued/

BACK TO TOPIC.
DAvid F, I think you missed some posts mate. We examined a myth of the Tsimshian
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1854&page=0#37640

We can use any text to reach a concensus about 'how to interpret'...and by all means provide one of your choice..but limit it to perhaps one or 2 sentences, otherwise it could become cumbersome.

Given your own scientific background, I think you would agree that arriving at a particular destination in research, involved the careful interpretation of language?

Re Mark 5 demonic possession.. please look at what is actually reported. (we can discuss this further)

Revisiting Mark 1:1 Just to highlight how much we often don't see.

Consider this please

"The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" King James Version.
"The beginning of the Gospel about Jesus Christ" NIV.

"of Jesus" is tranlated from 'Iesou' the 'ou' ending is the genetive singular case, equivalent to the english 'possessive'.

Anthropos= a man "He saw a man"
Anthropou= of a man "The ways of a man"

Iesos="Jesus" usage "This is Jesus"
Iesou="of Jesus" usage "The Gospel of Jesus"

So.. when we read in the NIV Mark 1:1 'about' Jesus, we are in fact reading an 'interpretation' based on context, but the Greek means 'of' .

Normally, we don't need to consider grammer so closely, we just speak and understand.

It is not difficult to 'interpet' "Honour your mother and father"

Reason? we know what the word 'honour' means.. from our cultural and social context.

So, when I use the title 'How to' in regard to interpreting texts, it is not 'arrogance' but an allusion to the simple fact that language has meaning which we all know.

The much bigger challenge is not so much 'interpretation' but APPLICATION...
"Now that I know WHAT the text says..and what it MEANS..how do I translate that into real world BEHAVIOR" that's.."application."

1/ Establish. Basic grammatical statement.
2/ Interpret. Meaning of the text.
3/ Application. Translate meaning into behavior.

Dear Boaz,

"Oly.. to much for this thread mate (your list of God questions; keeeep focused:) But the topic is not 'me scared of Islam' its 'how to interpret texts' :)"

I have taken the tact it was about your interfaith experience and meeting Muslim folk.

Cheers.

O.

Correct Oly... I was looking at 2 threads at the same time and became confused about which one I was responding to :) don't tell Pericles or Morgan I said that or I'll never live it down.. "confused" :)

But this one was as much about the other new agey things I came across..and as you have witnessed in this thread.. we have a follower of 'Gods direct connection.com' who does not mind handing over her cash to the 'supreme master' who then (after she takes her greater than Bill Clintons salary) sends it to 'needy causes' like torturing poor animals who are born and bred MEAT eaters, who they then feed them 'vegetarian' doggie food.. Mind boggling......

"World Peace" :) duh.