A few days ago I posted a thread on suicide. I was disappointed with most of the replies. I had hoped to open up the discussion, so as to see what others feel. Suicide is a big problem that may not go away. What I'd like to raise here is something that some people seem to forget. Like it or not, we're all in this together. What this means is that we owe it to each other to get along. Moreover, when someone is feeling down or depressed, should we not help them, comfort them?

I almost feel silly in saying this because being there for someone is a normal human response. But how often does this happen, epecially towards a person who's depressed?

Dear Hara

unless there is a medical reason for depression, it come from specifically identifiable sources.

It might be that we bombed out in something which we had longed for.. take the Olympics for example.. that bloke who was banned due to his altercation... I'll bet he feels a bit depressed.

It might be a series of events which all add up to a sense of hopelessness about life and the future... or just one event..like the ending of a relationship..

The bottom line is, that if it is not medical, then the key is as follows in my opinion.

1/ Identify the source.
2/ Develop coping strategies.

Unless we are prepared to do both, then we are prone to become some kind of emotional parasite who just wants to suck up emotional nourishment from others, but not deal with the cause itself.

Please note.. I said if the cause is not 'medical' which includes mental illness.

As some have intimated previously on OLO, "You can find yourself saying/doing things you would believe if told" kind of thing.. so, mental illness aside.. identification and rectification are needed.

If things have come to a point where all options seem futile, one needs to re-evaluate life and our place in it. If you dessssperately wanted to be a rocket scientist but simply don't have the capacity for it.. then remaining depressed about not achieving that goal will solve nothing.

Small steps to recovery can be beneficial. Small positives.. small victories, small ..yes, but they add up to a journey -to a better situation.

People will happily support someone who shows signs of progress, but I think they would weary and tire of someone who shows none, where it is simply because the person now rather self identifies as an emotionally needy person.

Haralambos I wish it was true I wish people did care for one another and that we are one in it together.
Sadly it is only words for some, we come from different life each of us fall over in the street in some country towns and floods of help will come not every town bush or city.
If we all count we will have heard of people we know killing themselves too many for me.
Not once did it show they needed help, in fact the outstanding memory is of a former police man being too friendly as he left work the day he killed himself.
I have no answers but am convinced we are better people if we care for others, just taking the time to listen to lone old people is a start.
We each would do well to read a book about body language, and remember our own when trying to get away from some one in the street it could help save a life or even make a Friend for life.

hi to all the forgotten australians
victims of rapes and abuse in the states run institutions throgh out australia

suicide well its a hard topic because their are a lot of people who attemt it for numerous reasons
but i find it disgraceful that when the police had the pedophiles caught out on the net then they charged some a couple took that way out becuase they knew what would happen to them in gaol or from the public

suicide ranges from many reasons those who have been abused those who feel alone those who just finally give up and of course those who take the easiest way out without having to face court

their are so many things that trigar a person to take their own live

and yes i have felt like siuicide at times in my life but im still fighting and this is what is keeping me alive and that of my faimly

as boaz-david said to me in a post once find their address and deal with it that way well that i won't do as the law is their for that purpose thats if they stop to continue to cover up for those who abused us when we were children and yes boaz-david i don't have to look for them as i have know where they have been for many years now thats why i wait for justice to take its course yet we victims are being let done by that course of justice as proven by the senate inquiries of which the state of new south wales still continue to cover up till this day

also if you ask the juvenille justice or d.o.c.s for records of any of us they are either destroyed or can not be found so the truth says it for itself of the cover up the goverment of new south wales still continue to do till this day they are just waiting for us victims to commit suicide and that won't be happening to me

we are the forgotten australians and will no longer be forgotten

regards huffnpuff

Haralambos

I have suffered from chronic depression since my teens, have attempted to treat my condition with various drugs, alcohol and have reached the point where suicide appeared to be the only way to stop the pain.

However, as I am still sitting here writing this post, clearly I have somehow managed to both survive and in fact go on to thrive.

I did not achieve this alone. I still access counselling when I feel the need. One can't always unburden to one's friends and family all the time, besides an objective point of view from someone who does not have any emotional relationship (therefore biased) is very helpful.

I find meditation also helps to steady the cacophony that still rages through my head at times.

We need to know who we are and understand how we came to be, but there is a point where we need to focus on the here and now and leave the past behind.

Beyond Blue is an organisation that provides assistance and contacts for people who are suffering:

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?

Part of their mission statement is below:

"Principles for action

* Respect for human rights and dignity
* Strong community involvement, understanding and support
* A population health approach
* Recognition of diversity and special needs
* A co-ordinated and collabortive approach
* An evidence-based approach
* Sustainable action"

For those who want to find a way to help others without upsetting the apple cart or help them selves should look at : http://www.apply-eft.tk
and look at the short video (top right on page) and tick the first and second box (in centre of page) If needed go to home page and find the box titled "Start Your EFT Search Here".
There are also professionals in Australia for advice.In case you wonder what my name (eftfnc) stands for, it is: Emotional Freedom Technique Family Network Creation. So...been there, done that.

Haralambos, “…being there for someone is a normal human response. But how often does this happen, epecially towards a person who's depressed?”

Haralambos, I missed your previous suicide thread so I took the time to read it. I agree that there is a need for a campaign about suicide.

In your other thread you said, “…the reality is that if they did (care), and if they showed it to those who are suffering, suicide wouldn't be a problem.”
I have to agree with what Romany and Yvonne said there, that there are many people who care. But it’s not so simple…someone who feels suicidal will have to somehow let other people know how he/she is feeling and not be afraid to ask for help. That is one thing that needs to be made clear in a campaign- not only for people to be sensitive to others around them, but also for people who can’t cope with life or with their emotions, to reach out. It’s a two-way street.

My daughter knew a boy who committed suicide and nobody knew that he was feeling desperate or depressed. He was an average student, was fairly quiet but did have some friends. He never opened up to anyone. It was a shock to his parents, his family, his friends as they all thought he was quite content with life.

Eftfnc,
Any sham treatment can have a placebo effect.

“I was disappointed with most of the replies.”

Why?

You asked and people responded, your disappointment is entirely yours to deal with, just as I am disappointed so many people voted with their emotions at the last general election – my problem to deal with – and since dealt with.

“What this means is that we owe it to each other to get along”

It appears to me the ones who do not want to “get along” as you put it are the ones who selfishly decide to suicide.

I said such when one of my daughters pulled a pretend suicide stunt. I told her loudly and some would say brutally (but sometimes brutality is needed to get through to an individual) that she was being unacceptably selfish to the people who loved her and her conduct was not that which I would tolerate from any child of mine.

My approach, along with counselling worked. I am damn sure pandering to her bad behaviour would have only encouraged more bad behaviour.

We can all find reasons for depression, sometimes it is a chemical imbalance, sometimes it is an attitude of unfulfilled expectation or right.

I can tell what works for me,

Care for yourself first, your love ones second, your friends third and that will keep you busy.

The best way to deal with depression is not to expect others to care for you but to project and promote caring for those you know personally. Then what goes around comes around.

When I returned from USA in 2001, I was depressed, buried beneath an emotional train wreck. I found I had 12 friends who cared enough to go out of their way to help me.

I had in the past, cared for them too but doubly now because I know how much difference it makes.

Six degrees of separation ensure everyone in the world is potentially cared for; but only if

they care enough for others themselves.

Haralambos

I know only too well how indifferent people can appear to be sometimes, it is not because they don't care, but more because they don't understand or cannot empathise. They are not being deliberately cruel.

Below is an extract of a fact sheet from the Mental Health Information Service:

"
FACTS ABOUT SUICIDE

Suicide does not happen instantaneously. People who have become suicidal are usually suffering from an illness of the brain, such as clinical depression, bipolar depression, anxiety or schizophrenia. This means that it can be treated, although many people think they can't be helped. If depression is recognised and treated, suicidal thoughts can be eliminated and many suicides can be prevented.

Suicide is always a desperate choice made by a person who is feeling overwhelmed by distress. Helping that person survive the period of turmoil when other alternatives are not clear is the most important thing we can do."

Here is some advice to people who would like to help:

"Knowing how NOT to react can also help. Whilst these are all normal reactions, try to avoid using them, don't:

Panic or dramatise the situation
Punish them or get angry
Ignore them, they are calling for help!
Criticise them, it'll only add to their feelings of low self-worth
Preach to them or blame them for feeling the way they do - feelings just 'are', they are neither right nor wrong
Use a quick fix approach or miracle cures - they don't exist, it can takes time and support from friends, family and professional assistance.

Where to Get Help

Beyondblue info line 1300 22 4636
Salvo Suicide Prevention - (02) 9331 6000
Lifeline - 131 114
Kids Helpline - 1800 551 800
Your local doctor
Your local Mental Health Centre Crisis Team (See Community Health Centres in your White Pages)
Mental Health Information Service - 1300 794 991
Australian Psychological Society - 18000 333 497"

I hope this is of help to you.

Hi David,

Depression's not about being needy. Its about being closed off, isolated, and shut out. Most people, you included, don't see this. Now depression is a medical condition, otherwise it would not be treated as such. Medication is needed at times, and counselling too. Small steps are the way to recovery, but a helping hand would benefit too.

Hi Belly,

You are so right, it doesn't take much. Just taking the time to listen helps. Its not too much to ask, is it?

Hi Fractelle,

Meditation is very good. When I was depressed, and suicidal, I practiced regularly. In fact, it saved me from a third suicide attempt. That was four years ago. Since then I've done alot of soul searching. I also did the tune in and drop out thing for a couple of years. I now know myself better, and am happier than ever. Keep meditating, it works.

Hi Celivia,

Yes, its a two way street, people need to talk. But the problem is that others don't listen, and when they do they often don't understand.

Hi Haralambos,
I also like meditation and relaxation, have done several courses. It has a very calming and balancing effect on the brain, which can be visible through scans.
It would be a good thing if meditation was taught at schools, perhaps as part of Health education. A five minute meditation a day might work wonders for children, especially those with behavioural problems.

What is the tune in and drop out thing?

Ok, so you say that the problem is that others don’t listen or understand. That saddens me, and if that was your experience and that of others, then of course people should be made aware of that.
You mentioned a campaign- do you have any specific idea of what you would like to see in a campaign?

I suppose one of the things that need to be made clear is that there is professional help available and where these contacts are.
And then we need to make sure that the Mental Health system is functioning effectively.
I’m not sure if professional help will be available to everyone who needs it, (especially in isolated country towns) because there are patients with a mental health problems who are slipping through the health system without getting the attention they need.

Heya Haralambos

I did not see your earlier discussion thread either, until someone pointed it out to me so I am grateful that you decided to start this one. So we can have a chat. One way I have helped myself is by active change of the way I think. It is a conscious effort to alter my thoughts from spiralling down into that dark place. Easier said than done I know.

Do you mean by 'tune in drop out' - self-medication? I completely understand. This is where meditation can help eliminate the desire to 'smooth out the rough edges' of one's psyche. OK it takes longer than a quick hit of something, but it does work as you know.

I have also been influenced by the Buddhist philosophy that our thoughts create our reality. That negative thinking attracts negative and positive attracts positive. Simplistic yes. But it does help. You can actually test it; see how many smiles you get back when walking down the street and you acknowledge other people with a brief nod or smile. I find elderly people are the best for this.

Then, later on if you find yourself spiralling, remember the smiles.

Cheers

Fractelle,
“You can actually test it; see how many smiles you get back when walking down the street and you acknowledge other people with a brief nod or smile. I find elderly people are the best for this.”

Hahaharrrr Fractelle, be careful who ya smile at- from experience, if you smile and nod at men, some might appreciate it too much and follow you all the way to your car and then you’d have to play Jekyll and Hyde.
Sorry couldn’t resist.

But seriously now, yes, I can imagine it would help to work on a positive attitude and changing the way we think about people generally. Perhaps people who are depressed need help with that, it must not be easy to do when you feel that your life has no merit and people don’t give a crap.

Hi Celivia,

I like your point about teaching meditation in schools. Its something I've thought about too. Now "tuning in and dropping out" is giving oneself the time and space to discover who we are. People do it in different ways. Some may travel. Others, like me, drop out of the rat-race. And some go on a pilgrimage.

Haven't really thought about a campaign much, that was Romany's idea. I'm more interested in what we could do as individuals. I do believe that we can all effect change, whether as one or many.

Hey Fractelle,

I know about spiraling thoughts, and dark places. Its like the mind becomes one-tracked. I think Buddhism is right when it says we should watch our thinking. This is what I got out of meditation. It allowed me to sit and watch thoughts come and go. After a while, the negative thoughts went away.

Now "tuning in and dropping out" has got nothing to do with medication. All its about is discovering who I am, and what I want to do.

I like what you said about smiles. I also think it works. And what's more is that we often get more back than we give.

Haralambos, thanks for re-stating what you want to discuss.

Many people seem to be so focussed on achieving success, of the material kind, that there is not much focus, or appreciation for that matter, on those things that do not cost any money. Being successful at relationships, for instance, with family, friends, work colleagues is probably not regarded in the same light as being financially or professionally successful.

Yet at the end of day, even somebody as hard headed and self reliant as ColRouge admits that successful relationships are vitally important.

Not only should children be taught meditation, they should also be taught about the value of virtues that educate on how we should treat each other and why.

Very many years ago I came across 'the Virtues Project'. My kids loved it and to this day have very fond memories of it. Even when very young they had marvelous things to say about such virtues as 'Tact', 'Respect','Courtesy' or 'Reliability', to name 4 of the 52.Why it is not compulsory in schools I don't know. Even for us adults it was good to think and talk about it, or to hear the opinions of our children on how we fared!

It really all starts with how we treat our children and how our children see we treat each other. Then we rear adults who care about others and not only themselves. And most importantly, we need to re-focus on what it means to be successful.

Well put yvonne. It is about raising our children properly. Good manners, mutual respect, and compassion are vital. I know such things should be taught at school. But as you say, parents need to lead by example. And yes, we should also re-define success. For if we don't, then its our most cherished relationships that suffer.

Just a quick post.

I think Yvonne's point about children is vital. Children are our future. What we value, how we react in various situations is as much nurture as it is nature.

Therefore, I put forward the problem of bullying. Children who are relentlessly bullied at school often go on to experience depression as adults. The other disturbing behaviour pattern is that children who are bullies frequently grow up to be adult bullies also. Workplace harassment is endemic and across both genders.

We need to give the best start possible to our children.

For further info please check:

http://www.bullying.com.au/

I have been unwell lately, hence my absence on a number of threads. As this topic is one I know only too well, I felt impelled to make this post. I just want to let Haralambos know that her topics are important and vital; these issues require more investigation and a whole lot less castigation.

I'll finish with my favourite quote from Buddha:

"We are formed and molded by our thoughts.
Those whose minds are shaped by selfless thoughts give joy when they speak or act. Joy will always follow them."

Peace

Hey there Fractelle,

Thanks for your support. I unfortunately know a fair bit about bullying, and its effects. Hopefully people are able to break out of that pattern that can lead to bullying at work.

Nice quote. I think its true.

Take care & peace to you.

One more thing. I'm a "he".

Great posts, Yvonne, Fractelle and Haralambos.

I am not familiar with 'the Virtues Project' but I did find out some things about it through google. I have a general idea about it- it looks like one of the most fantastic projects available so I must agree that this should be compulsory.
This is so much better than the confusing and vague talking about what Australian values are- out with that and in with the virtues project; the virtues are universal and clear.

Luckily, school staff become increasingly aware of bullying and I'd say all have an anti-bullying program. Not all work effectively, but it's relatively new so I hope the teething problems will be taken care of.

People are often so time-poor, so occupied with combining work and family and their own problems that they may not notice the suffering of others unless they see it on the news.

My Grandmother once told me that she experienced the closest community bond during the 2nd world war, when everybody was overwhelmed by stress and scarcity- yet people worked together and shared even their most meager food supplies and possessions.
Many neighbours used to sit together in one room all winter to share the light of a candle and some heating, if there was any at all. Wrapped in blankets they sat for hours every night, behind blackened windows, sharing stories, playing games, listening to and supporting each other.

People are able to be very supportive and caring- we have to remind ourselves to look around us and reach out when necessary.