Barbara (BB1) posted some off topic points on another thread relating to child sexual abuse and a post I submitted in 2005. Rather than continue that discussion off topic I'd like to take it up here.

Barbara's post is at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1861#37490

Key points mentioned by Barbara in her post seem to be

"To get the love they need (all children need) they often present themselves sexually or, as you put it in your post, try to 'come on' to guys.

They may continue to do this well into adult life, recreating the abusive situation over and over until they are finally forced - by the level of their own unhappiness and dysfunction - to confront their past and the damage that caused.

So, yes, young girls (and boys do the same following abuse) re-enact it and try to 'seduce' those they want affection from. They have learned from an impressionable age that the two go hand in hand. (Research repeated over and over in various countries puts abuse rates at one in four for girls and one in seven for boys. Although under-reporting for boys is suspected. One recent Indian study of 2200 particpants showed a child sexual abuse rate of 46% of girls and 49% of boys. The question was not framed in terms of abuse but of first sexual experiences.)

Also, as you or another poster pointed out, I have seen studies showing that one-third of child sexual abusers are female.

Although not all abused children become abusers, some 60% of child sexual abusers have been abused themselves. Those who are going to take this path often start abusing others in adolescence."

Barbara if you have a link to the post you refered to can you post it please so I can go back and see what I said then (I may have changed my views on some stuff in the interval).

Cheers
R0bert

I saw Barbara's post too, it has haunted me every second since, no academic it never entered my head it could be so.
Looking at cases I know of it is so clear that yes victims do offer sex in that way.
I know of two cases that clearly prove this.
And if only close family could understand just why a victim has lived life that way.
I will watch the thread with interest.

I don't see any questions, or what this is supposed to show. Can children be criminals? Why yes they can. The onus is not always on the adult. That is cultural propaganda.

Excellent, excellent question R0bert. I look forward to responses. I am at a loss myself.

The child sexual abuse case that I am close to and that has come up on this forum from time to time was of a ten-year-old boy by twenty-five-year-old man. I am pretty certain the boy didn't "come on" to the man, but the boy later spent time in prison and I know he to others that he had to do things in there that "would make you [his dear friend] hate me".

He was someone who had received no parental love. The attention he got from the twenty-five-year-old man was the first affection he'd ever received from an adult male. It doesn't seem a stretch to believe he may have tried to replicate this relationship later.

Through my research, I have also learnt that many child victims of sexual assault do not report the assault because, at least initially, they enjoyed it. If not the actual sex bit, then at least the attention. It follows that some of them may have initiated it.

Thanks for raising this R0bert. If BB1 could come back with some more info that would be great.

My interest came about because while I have known of about 8 cases of such abuse two stand out.
Both girls both assaulted before 10 years of age both by close relatives.
It was not until teenage years they told anyone what had happened to them.
For me their lives remind me children can have a whole life destroyed under our eyes if we are not watching.
One of the offenders died before he was uncovered the other was often heard insulting his victim because of her changed behavior.
After some time he too was uncovered and in truth no longer has a life.
To me the point is the explanation of why those girls acted the way they did.
And constant reminding their copped heaps for behavior they maybe could not control.
I am aware now that the surviving offender was a victim in his childhood years, it does not lesson his crime in my mind.

steel the questions don't appear to be here yet. I'm waiting to see what Barbara wanted to discuss.

I've not located the original discussion but your point about the onus not always being on the adult reminded me of an earlier discussion. One side some seemed to excuse some child sex abuse because the child came onto the adult. Others proclaimed that children could not and would not come on to an adult. That might have been to do with the female victorian teacher who had a sexual relationship with a teenage student where the boy (then much older) was clearly stating that he had sought the relationship.

My point was (I think) that children (and youths) do sometimes try and initiate intimacy with adults but the responsibility lies with the adult not to go there. Pretending it does not happen is not helpful nor is excusing those who accept the offer. Sex may be a tool used to try and gain something else rather than what the underage person is seeking or they may be experimenting and not knowing how far it will go but it still happens.

Belly, the correlation between victim and perpetrator is a difficult one. I don't think the things that happened to us in the past excuse what we do to others now or in the future but I do believe we need to think about how we deal with perpetrators where there is such an obvious contributing factor to their behaviour.

Vanilla, it must be very confusing for kids when they have done some of the initiating and then they realise what is happening is wrong. I've spend time trying to teach my son to take responsibility for his choices and actions and what we ask of children in that situation is almost the opposite.

Thanks all for your input so far. Hopefully Barbara will be back soon. As I mentioned earlier I'm hoping to be away over the weekend so I may not have more to contribute until next week.

R0bert

hi to all the forgotten australians

victims of sexual abuse ,physical abuse, emotional abuse , mental abuse ,all forms of abuse

we are victims that the goverment of new south wales goverment institutions and of other states in australia ,

we live with the night mares and pain of what we suffered many many years ago ,that the state goverment of new south wales is aware of the senate inquiries prove what we suffered as children yet this goverment still covers up those abuses that we suffered

and beleave me when you are a victim you no it as it stays with you all your life

we were told if we ever said a thing of what happend to us in these institutions when we were placed in them we would stay in them until they decided to let us go

what happen to me when i was a child is real , i held it in for 20 years and finally broke out and told what i suffered , and of what i seen other children suffer

and our goverment the state of new south wales still covers up these abuses that were in the states run institutions ,it was just not one state it was all states of australia ,

yet new south wales still will not ackknowledge us victims the forgotten australians

the senate reports

the forgotten australian august 2004

and the second report

protecting vulnerable children in institutional care and out of home care march 2005 ,

the new south wales goverment are still hiding the truth from the public of what we suffered

and a readdress of those senate inquiries must be aheard by our state leader

from a real victim

regards huffnpuff

part two continued after this as running out of space

hi to all the forgotten australians

victims of rapes and abuse in institutional care,orphanages ,state ward homes girls homes boys homs and out of home care

part two

the police finally catch a heap of pedophiles at last with their secret operation good news for us victims that have
suffered such abuse by pedophiles

but the real strange thing is that these people the law has caught are people in high profile jobs such as police teachers and other high protective jobs of the community

if you read through my post and my replys in all of the stories i have wrote
you will find that i had mentioned this a long time ago that those in authority are the abusers

these pedophiles range from 80 years old to the young in their 20's

as i said i spoke of this in stories and i hope you all out their read each of them
they are in all types of jobs

now this has to propmt the new south wales goverment to
re-address the senate inuqiries

we are reaL VICTIMS OF RAPES AND ABUSE AND WANT AN APOLOGY FROM THE GOVERMENT OF AUSTRALIA

IM GLAD THAT THE POLICE HAVE CAUGHT THESE ONLINE PEDOPHILES

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ONE'S WHO ARE NOT USING THE NET WHO ARE THEY WHERE ARE THEY THAT WE DON'T KNOW ,AND WE HAVE TO SEEK THEM OUT BECAUSE IF WE DON'T OUR CHILDREN WILL NOT BE SAFE

WELL DRESSED OR A GRUBBY LOOKING PERSON WE JUST DON'T KNOW WHO THEY COULD BE UNTIL SOME ONE SPEAKS OUT

I ONLY HOPE THAT ALL WHO READ MY POST REALLY READ THEM CAUSE I STATED IN THE EARLIY STAGES OF MY STORIES THAT PEDOPHILES ARE IN ALL TYPES OF JOBS OUT THEIR

SO STAND UP PARLIMENT OF AUSTRALIA AND PROTECT OUR YOUNG CHILDREN
AND RE-ADDRESS THE SENATE REPORTS

WE ARE REAL VICTIMS AND SHALL NO LONGER BE FORGOTTEN

AS IT IS OUR CHILDREN OF NOW THAT ARE BECOMING THE NEW VICTIMS AND WE NEED TO STOP THESE SICK PEDOPHILES THAT PREY UPON OUR YOUNG

REGARDS HUFFNPUF

You sound a lot more like a raving lunatic.

Hi Huffnpuff,

I read all your posts and understand exactly what you're asking for. The recommendations of the Forgotten Australians report continue to be — shamefully — ignored.

Even though the big institutions have closed down, state wards are still sometimes abused by government employees charged with their care.

As always, I wish you well.

I hope in the deepest way steel you are sorry you ever posted that.
I come from a background very much like those victims huffnpuff tells us about.
If you ever read the story you will know the suffering inflicted on huffnpuff.
I have no answers why but the very poor and sometimes not well educated are often more represented in the list of victims.
I am No educated person ,not even being able to read or write till years after I left school.
Huffnpuff like me learned in the school of life our educations is continuing.
I never had to learn what huffnpuff did but forever admire the fact someone so miss used is never going to give in.
Consider this, the story's are true, the rapes real every one of them.
RObert looking back I now understand why those two victims did further damage to their lives.
And I wish very deeply I could go back and talk to those who reacted as steel has, without understanding.

Steel exposes corroded psyche

Steel,
You have shown yourself to be the most ignorant, blabbering idiot I have come across. huffnpuff is to be much admired and his untiring efforts to seek recognition for those who suffered terribly in state institutions, humbles me.

There is an icon at bottom/left of each post that gives a posters history. You should read that and also a Federal Government report called "The Forgotteh Australians".

If you did that you may just begin to see where huffnpuff comes from and a profound apology would be in order. But You wouldn't have the principle for that. Frankly, you are disgusting!

Even now, state wards often don't make it past primary school.

That is, the government, which is not only supposed to be looking after these kids but also mandates that children must go to school, doesn't bother making them go to school. They end-up ill-educatate, usually unemployed and often homeless. Their lack of education and status means that other people don't listen to them or take them seriously.

It is OUR fault. We vote for the people who continue to let this happen.

Take care of yourself huffnpuff.
I wish we could deal with these scum én masse, but in general we can only deal with them one by one, and sooo slowly. Their 'rights' are protected in a way that their victim's rights never were.

It is a long and continuing battle, and you must stay mentally and physically strong to fight to have YOUR rights recognised.

Do not be weakened by what they did to you; that means that they are still affecting your life, and the abuse in effect, continues.

Don't let them do that.

Be well, and keep up your fight.

RObert,
I am sorry to intrude on your thread and off topic, but I simply could not let the critisism of huffnpuff pass without comment. I do hope Barbara makes contact, that would be most interesting.

Huffnpuff,
Keep at it old son, you will win eventually. Your posts have inspired me now to write to my NSW pollies with some pertinant questions. I hope others do similar.

I said he sounded like a raving lunatic, and i stand by it. his post looks similar to one under god's. none of you can refute my words, instead you leap to conclusions about how i must be a denialist. typical kneejerk responses. I did him more a favour that all of you did not, by giving him implicit constructive feedback that his posts needed improvement. We do not need hysteria about "child abuse" after what has taken place recently. Hysteria and these witch hunts threaten to become destructive to society and the indviduals in it.

Steel I hold you accountable for the post still you are not the only one who has pointed out to huffnpuff that his posting in caps harms the post.
But it was done to help not hurt, and the answers came back telling of education and computer problems.
The dreadful story behind the posts, the pain beyond belief this man had inflicted on him.
The fight for so very many forgotten Australians that he just will not give up, speak for huffnpuff.
It is people like him that make an impact on our country.
You lashed out without thinking,if you can point to any constructive criticism in your post show me.
It hardly however calls for the death penalty read the history of the issue and tell us what you think then.
Yes we have turned a thread sorry RObert hope Barbara returns already I have learned from the thread.
Vanilla if only we had a party that truly stopped this crime maybe one day we will have only maybe.

If anybody have questions with alchohol abuse. You can visit here and get useful tips to alchohol abuse.

bird.lavonne
Alcohol abuse affects millions. This site has a lot of useful information.
http://www.treatmentcenters.org

I'm of the view that starting a thread does not imply control over what others can post and that there is value in sorting out the people stuff sometimes.

No apologies needed to me.

R0bert

hi to all the for gotten australians

we will no longer be forgotten

( steel )

comment for you i know this story was for something and it falls into this topic i have been raising for over a year

i can only hope that barbra will post her comment here as it may well help than destroy what i have written in the past

I thank all of you out their for the support of my post and articles

steel

i don't have any problem with what you say as it is a forum , but if you want to be on the same path as the new south wales govererment and continue with the cover ups of the rapes and abuse we suffered well you are no better than those in denile

also don't make out im hystirical as the truth is in the court system and in the goverment records that the state still continue to keep hidden from us all

as i said a long time ago in my post of which you will have to go through one at a time

i stated that their were certian people in certian jobs that were and maybe still are in a position of trust of which they are abusing for their own gain

and last week proved it by the crack down on the pedophiles , our public has to be aware of these things as for the future of our children need protecting from these sick perverted pedophiles

this article is about child sexual abuse correct
well we the forgotten australians are those victims and we will not give up our fight for justice

another thing i am no raving idiot you tool. maybe you should look in the mirror and rethink about youself and how you react to the post its obvious that you have not read anything i have ever written or what other people have written , exspecially the senate report

we are the forgotten australaians and will no longer be forgotten

regards huffnpuff

I am a lefty left of center that is not far left but left I doubt even my party will do much to right the wrongs huffnpuff tells us about.
It is real you know, white wash is easier than fixing problems.
20 years ago a call came to me for help a kid I helped rare had been raped in a kids prison.
Nothing could be done all my party ties did not help, my union ties could not help, my love and grief could not change anything.
That child never recovered he never got over it, his attacker continued to attack others.
No chance exists that now man will ever get back on track his life was ruined the day he went to prison.
Surely even the hardest of us never wanted him punished that way?
A six month prison sentence turned into a ruined life.
If we ever say sorry, if we ever change this dreadful crime, if we ever understand some of the offenders are those paid to protect it will be some one like huffnpuff we have to thank.

Steel: "I said he sounded like a raving lunatic, and i stand by it. his post looks similar to one under god's. none of you can refute my words..."

I refute your words. You are wrong. I understood every word his said. (Which I frequently don't do when I used to read "one under god".) His post sounds like a member of the Forgotten Australians who was given a shamefully poor education. If by "raving lunatic" you are trying to say that huffnpuff has a mental illness, than I've read enough of his posts to be completely satisfied that is not the case.

"... I did him more a favour that all of you did not, by giving him implicit constructive feedback that his posts needed improvement."

Do you really think saying someone sounds like a raving lunatic is "implicit constructive feedback"? Some members of this forum have, in the past, helped huffnpuff with grammar issues and talked to him about his use of capitals. I will leave it to him to decide which approach best helps him improve his style, but I certainly disagree that your particular feedback was constructive.

"We do not need hysteria about "child abuse" after what has taken place recently. Hysteria and these witch hunts threaten to become destructive to society and the indviduals in it."

Huffnpuff's post refers to the Senate Inquiry into the Forgotten Australians. It is not hysterical — it is one of the better and most important senate inquiries of the last decade. It's available here: http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/clac_ctte/completed_inquiries/2004-07/inst_care/report/index.htm

There is no "witch hunt". Most of the organisations named in the report have admitted that children were sexually and otherwise abused under their care and have apologised. There is no "hysteria". Huffnpuff's posts are emotional because he was raped as a child, and he is yet to see a satisfactory resolution to his story — if one exists.

Others of us on OLO are involved in lobbying the government to fully implement the recommendations of this report.

cont...

cont...

Here is a quote from the introduction to the report:

"For the Committee members and parliamentary staff involved with this inquiry the scale and magnitude of the events described in evidence was overwhelming. To think that a human could treat another in such a psychologically and physically abusive manner is unthinkable; to treat a child in such a manner is simply incomprehensible. Yet it happened. Comments were made during evidence that it is impossible for others to fully comprehend what was happening unless they had actually experienced this life...

One Committee member has described the inquiry 'as the most emotionally wrenching period I have spent in politics in 15 years', a view shared by all members."

I recommend you read the report.

Steele -

"I said he sounded like a raving lunatic, ... none of you can refute my words,..." Just shows how wrong you can be. Your words have, in fact, been unanimously refuted.

Oh... and the way you express yourself presents you as self-absorbed, shallow, aggressive, thoughtless and rude.

Hope you didn't mind my mentioning that but I thought a spot of "implicit constructive feedback" was just what was needed to let you know that your "posts needed improvement". Hey, you can't refute that now, can you?

The 'gang' has spoken. Hang in there Steele.

'I'm of the view that starting a thread does not imply control over what others can post'

Good stuff Robert.

Aren't I allowed to disagree with Steel? If not, why not?

US

I have another question. Is "the gang" me and Romany? Romany and I are friends — we realised after months of posting on OLO that we have heaps in common and stared emailing. I really like and admire her, and she's been a support to me lately when I've have a personal... I dunno what to call it... a personal sadness.

Having said that, we don't agree on all things. And we did not collude on this thread. We simply came to a similar conclusion at a similar time. (It's the kind of connection that demonstrates why we became friends in the first place.)

Steel has insulted me several times. I don't mean that he's just criticised my posts, I mean he's suggested that I'm unintelligent and not a good person. I have tried not to strike back — I reckon the point of OLO is to debate ideas, not just slag each other off. But I'm not complaining either — he can slag me off all he wants. To be really honest, I just don't care. Steel doesn't like me, but he not only does not know me, he also hasn't developed a sense of who I am.

I'm sure he thinks otherwise.

I have spent a year — over a year — "working with" (it's hard to explain) a ward of the state who was abused by the state. I have read the Forgotten Australians report about a dozen times. From everything I know, huffnpuff is not a "raving lunatic". This is nothing to do with hysteria and nothing to do with witch hunts. I wanted to make my case why. I wanted, above all, to encourage others to read the report. The link is above.

Hi To All The Forgotten Australians

Vanilla , I ignored certian peoples remarks !!

I was booted off this site for speaking my mind so i guess some can say what they feel and not be booted by graham younng

I thank you for your surport, and that of all of those on the site that know of the Truth of what we Victims Suffered in these States Run Orphanages And State Run Institutions Through Out Our State Of New South Wales

The State Goverment Of New South Wales And The Goverment Of
Australia Are Resposable For What Happend To Us Victims

I can only hope that they Re-Address The Senate Inquiries

And Stop The Cover Up Of The Truth

We Are Real Victims

The Forgotten Australians

Will No Longer Be Forgotten

The Goverments Cover Up Must Be Addressed

Regards huffnpuff

Vanilla do not let them get to you.
Your words are gold you understand the issue you are spot on, not just for me but most of us.
That stick in there comment to steel was not worth taking notice of.
I am bogged down by the black dog as a result of this threads new direction.
It hurts so deeply to remember just one kid who suffered this way yet huffnpuff knows so many.
Steel we clash often you and I but as hard as it is the door remains open ,did you read the story?
Are you truly unconcerned at it?
Huffnpuff you are one I admire please consider not using capital letters to highlight your pain it is not needed.
Your words shout at those of us with hearts that our country even now has not got it right and that they must do so and soon.
Now and again federal members of both sides of the house post here a future Prime Minister I am waiting for does.
Just maybe one will have the courage to take up your battle?
My letter writing to both sides on this issue will continue
regards

Steel

It is not your opinion - I have often agreed with you on the Henson debate - it is the way you say it. Because you pillory certain groups of people you are actually alienating yourself from people who would otherwise be in total support of your opinion.

U-Sus, do you have anything to offer on this topic or are you just being Steel's little deputy like you are with Col Rouge. Please don't get all upset and threaten to leave - its just that I'd prefer to hear your opinion on this issue rather than you attempting to set up an "us and them" scenario.

All of which is a shame. This is a significant topic.

R0bert has raised a vital issue regarding the sexuality of children and how this is exploited by predatory adults.

Huff n Puff, please continue to tell us of your experiences, if it is any consolation, I find Graham Young's monitoring of this site rather fickle. Some people can get away with just about anything, and others can be deleted, apparently, on a whim.

Vanilla, remember that ALL feminists are part of the great conspiracy for universal domination and the elimination of all men - except for the cute ones :-P

Vanilla,

As far as I can tell, the gang includes yourself, CJ, Fractelle, Romany and Foxy. Apologies if I've left anyone out. There is no need for any moderator, as you guys decide what is appropriate comment, and back each other to the hilt. Snide ridiculing of the people you all consider 'inferior' posters are allowed, and the angry rebuttal that ensues is further proof of these posters' failings. I agree with Steel, the use of capitals does make him sound like a raving lunatic, but the gang has decided he is ok, so steel is the A-hole. Though if HRS, or steel, or anyone who isn't sanctioned by the gang expressed themselves in a similar way, they would be put down with snide remarks and I find this pretty hypocritical.

The gang decides who gets the benefit of the doubt, who is deserving of sympathy whatever their manner, and who is just there to be ridiculed and put into line. As Fractelle has shown, it just doesn't do to be seen to be defending someone who the gang hasn't sanctioned. As it happens I don't defend Steel as I don't think what he said was necessary, I was trying to highlight the dynamics I have explained above.

Fractelle,

Ha, like you're CJ's little deputy. I think I did agree with Col once. Why did it hurt you so? Obviously Col isn't in the gang...

I do have stuff to add, but my opinion is worthless here because there is a general consensus from the gang that I have issues. Which is strange considering the gang is in it's element sympathising and sharing each others illness, depression and even warm and fuzzy feelings they have about things. All off topic, but that's allowed for the gang.

I know I should leave, and I try to, I really do, but I am so bored at work you see. The Henson thread I desperately wanted to post but stayed away. Lucky I did too, with people being labelled a paedophile left right and centre, and me being a sook and all.

Usual Suspect, that was weird and paranoid.

I guess what I just said now becomes an "attack" on you by the "gang".

By the way, did you notice that, in the Henson debate, Steel and I were the most strident defenders of Henson (and received much abuse), Foxy was anti-Henson, CJ was also pro-Henson, and Romany (who lives in China) didn't comment? Yes, a poster called Paul would have called you a pedo — I think he did all of us by the end. How did this constellation of opinions prevent you from commenting.

Steel is tough. He lays it on the rest of us tough, and I'm sure he can take it from others. However, if you feel he's been unfairly ganged up on (or if you feel you have), why not take it up with the moderator of the site.

The Forgotten Australians report is really important stuff. I really wish you would read it, so you could see why I am so passionate about it and about huffnpuff's plight. I don't care who agrees with me or who doesn't — I just think that it's easy to label people as mentally ill when they have actually been abused and/or badly-educated by employees of the government or of churches.

So why not read it, then make up your mind, rather than indulge in this playground who's-friends-with-who? debate?

Vanilla,

Hey, you asked who the gang is. I know Steel doesn't need defending, and I wasn't defending him, I was merely appreciating his plight. It was a roll the eyes, here it comes comment. 'Hang in there'.

People's opinions on the Henson topic didn't deter me from posting. As I said, I'm trying to quit posting altogether, and the topic was very interesting to me and it was hard to keep to my resolution.

Anyway sorry to all for straying off topic.

OK,

On topic. Fractelle said 'R0bert has raised a vital issue regarding the sexuality of children and how this is exploited by predatory adults.
'

Why is it, that only men are seen as predatory. If a 15 year old guy makes advances at a 35 year old teacher, or the other way around, the attitudes are one of the following.
1. Great work mate nudge nudge.
2. Lucky guy
3. Wonderful for the guy. Every guy should have a mature woman to educate them on sensual lovin, the way only a mature woman can.

The reverse situation.
1. Disgusting dirty old man. Should be locked up.
2. The poor girl just wanted attention when she seduced him, and the dirty man took advantage.
3. This will scar her for life.

Twice I have seen by coincidence parralel stories of teenage student having sex with teacher, and both times the male got 5 times the sentence than the woman. One other occurance I remember the woman successfully got no jail time, as she said she was drunk and depressed. I know all cases are unique, but I really think there si a different attitude in society. Notice nobody was at all interested that Henson had naked pics of boys too.

Now the law is supposed to reflect societies values. So I say, lets lower the age of consent for boys to 13, and raise it for girls to 20.

Maybe then we could lessen that special hatred in society for young men as a result of them shagging societies daughters.