There are a number of ways that society condones murder, and suicide is one of them. Capital punishment, and deaths during wartime are others. In my opinion, none of these should ever take place. Now I'm not religious, and I don't always think life is sacred. For instance, women have the right to control their own bodies, and if they choose to abort, that is up to them.

With suicide, we have a complicated situation. I don't think anyone really wants to die. Euthanasia is different. But with suicide, the person who has most likely reached the end of their tether is totally and utterly desperate. To some degree, it might be a cry for help. Overall, it is most likely born of extreme alienation and marginalization. Once again, no one wants to die.

What I want to raise here is certainly unpleasant and very sad. I know from my own experiences with depression and anxiety that society, meaning our families, friends, schools, work, the whole lot, sets up the conditions for death to take place. Its a sad inditement on us all. Stats show that one in five will experience depression, and that Australia has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. This should not be happening, anywhere.

My concern is that most people don't know much about depression, or other mental illnesses, or don't care. I will even take this further and say that whilst the individual pulls the trigger, society loads and holds the gun.

>"and I don't always think life is sacred. For instance, women have the right to control their own bodies, and if they choose to abort, that is up to them.

>With suicide, we have a complicated situation......This should not be happening, anywhere"

That about says all you need to know about this hypocrite.

"Once again, no one wants to die."

That is the arrogance of one who genralises for other people. My mother said she wanted to die after she had to go to a nursing home. I believe she was completely sincere in her desire. How can anybody possibly know what all people want?

Well.. I can only offer something positive here, though I do understand that it may not be met with the enthusiasm with which I offer it.

Haralambos said:

<<I know from my own experiences with depression and anxiety that society, meaning our families, friends, schools, work, the whole lot, sets up the conditions for death to take place.>>

Indeed. So, without meaning to be simplistic or trite, I invite Hara to consider the following:

<< Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.>> Romans 5:1-5

This is the Christian experience.

Paul, the man who was the man 'most likely NOT to become a believer in Christ wrote that.

<<For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.>> Galatians 1:13ff

<<circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church, as to the Law, blameless >> Philippians 3:5ff

Please no-one feel offended here.. I am just offering, putting forward.. not 'telling'.

haralamblos, i find it difficult to accept that society condones suicide though I do agree that some aspects of society are to blame, particularly conforming to ideals- happy family with a big house, new car, private schools, boats and the like. Now there is nothing wrong with having any of these, but if the pursuit of such ends in failure the emotional ramifications can be significant. Even if we "have it all" depression can occur.

The causes of depression are many, genetic prediposition, personality type,hormone disorders, tragedy to name but a few. What society doesn't always see are the individuals symptoms, and often they can only be seen in hindsight. I think suicide candidates are the worrying sort who really need to share their problems, but don't so as not to worry others. The act of suicide the call for help that they didn't verbalise. How we overcome that is by doing exactly what you've done in making depression/mental disorders a topic of open discussion, in order to remove associated stigma.

david f, I think H was clear when he said euthanasia was not what he was talking about, and I'd suggest that your mother would prefer to not get to that nursing home stage any sooner than she had to. I do agree with you that people should have the choice when and where to end their lives, and I'm sure you'd agree that no one should have to end their lives due to external pressures. Overt or otherwise.

Dear Rojo,

Suicide due to a momentary fit of depression should be countered.

Otherwise I think one's life is one's own to do with, as one will.

You wrote: "I do agree with you that people should have the choice when and where to end their lives, and I'm sure you'd agree that no one should have to end their lives due to external pressures. Overt or otherwise."

I don't agree. If one evaluates one's life and makes the decision that it would be better to die than to continue living I don't see a thing wrong with suicide. One of the factors that can go into the decision is external pressures. They can be poverty, disease, alienation etc.

The prohibition against suicide is the result of the Christian influence on our society. Originally Christianity did not ban suicide. There were seven suicides in the Bible, most notably in Matthew 27:3, the suicide of Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus. Christianity set up the prospect of an afterlife. It was a common superstition in the milieu in which Christianity arose. Following logically from this belief some Christians wanted to fast track the afterlife. The most notable pro-suicide group was the Donatists, who believed that by killing themselves they could attain martyrdom and go to heaven. They jumped off cliffs, burned themselves in large numbers, and stopped travellers, either offering to pay them or threatening them with death to encourage them to kill the Donatist would-be martyr. They were eventually declared heretics.

The result of Donatist actions was voluntarily to rid the world of religious nuts. However, the church fathers realised that Christianity would not thrive if Christians eliminated themselves. Implicitly they made the political decision to ban suicide.

In the fifth century, St. Augustine wrote the book The City of God, in it making Christianity's first overall condemnation of suicide. His biblical justification for this was the interpretation of the commandment, "thou shalt not kill", and the rest of his reasons were from Plato's "Phaedra". In the sixth century, suicide became a religious sin and secular crime.

Harambolas I know what you are getting at - it is true that some people at risk of suicide might complete that act no matter what sorts of support are in place or offerred, due to various factors.

A society or government that ensures adequate social support structures are in place would assist in minimising those situations where suicide is contemplated. Moreso in those cases where the person at risk may have a feeling of hopelessness where circumstances and possible solutions are perceived to be out of their control.

There is an amazing amount of excellent work done by groups like Beyond Blue which is great given depression and stress related disorders are on the increase. The big picture in today's globalised economy is that the wellbeing of people does not always take first priority. This mindset needs to change if we are to put community first over money or profit.

It is without a doubt tragic when someone commits suicide. But murder? I think that's a bit strong and over the top. It is not illegal to take your own life but it certainly is illegal to take another person's life- so murder its not.

Often people who do commit suicide do so to 'make the pain go away.' They are screaming out " Make it stop!"

There are a lot of misconceptions in society about people who attempt or succeed with suicide. To label it as socially conditioned murder does those suffering people a disservice- it simply stigmatizes them even more.

It would be wonderful if our busy society took more time to reach out to each other and show the kindness and generosity our human race is capable of then it is very possible the decision to 'end it all' would not be so readily considered

Haralambos “My concern is that most people don't know much about depression, or other mental illnesses, or don't care. I will even take this further and say that whilst the individual pulls the trigger, society loads and holds the gun.”

We all deal with different issues in our lives.

Part of the growth process is learning how to deal with them.
Depression is no different to many other maladies; it is a mental illness and not a physical one.

Re “or don't care”

If we were to spend all our time pondering the maladies and negative influences which affect other people lives, when would we ever find time to live our own?

Re “society loads and holds the gun”

Only if you expect society to be responsible for your every action.

Personally I do not think society holds the gun. My life is not all upside but I simply refuse to make a crutch or excuse from the downsides.

I take personal account for my actions and do not seek to make society responsible for anything I do.

As for euthanasia, if it came to it, I would rather do a “Thelma and Louise” than cling to a significantly diminished life style.

However, that is subject to the responsibility I have to the feelings and wishes of my partner, friends and children, who may not agree with me deciding when to shuffle off this mortal coil.

When young, one of my daughters faked a suicide attempt.

When I got there, I placed my face 2 inches above hers and shouted that her selfishness was not acceptable to me, her mother or the other people who loved her .

We got her counselling and she is now a happy young adult.

I find the accusation in Haralambos initial post “society loads and holds the gun”, to be an extremely selfish and self-absorbed perception.

Self sufficiency is not just an economic concept, it is an emotional one too.

Hi pelican,

Yes, a supportive environment is what's required. People need to feel that they're not alone.

Hi TammyJo,

You're right. Where is that kindness and generosity?

Haralambos,

The kindness and the generosity really is all around us. I promise.

Having been a suicide interventionist and a support-group facillitator for quite a few years I am constantly overwhelmed by how many wonderful people in every community are doing so much good. Most areas have Community Health or Community Help organisations which could never operate without the freely given help of volunteers who dedicate their lives to others and their problems.

However, if you, or anyone you know, is in a bad place and are unaware of the resources surrounding us it is a pretty safe bet that the people providing those resources are equally unaware of you or whoever you know that needs help.

G.P.'s can put people in touch. Local Councils are amazingly helpful at doing the same thing. Members of service groups such as Rotary provide the same services to anyone who contacts them. Vinnies etc. don't just sell old clothes, either, they have amazing resources. Local womens clubs - even including things like Weight-Watchers, believe it or not - if they don't have the information,will always help put one in touch. High Schools are another place where members of the public can go and visit the school counsellors for information. Youth organisations always know of what resources are around. The Classified sections of local newspapers usually yield information too.

If one has never looked around for these resources it might indeed seem that no-one cares. But truly, there are are thousands of people throughout Australia to whom one can reach out.

Getting oneself involved in any of these ventures and helping out oneself too, can have an incredibly positive effect on changing ones perceptions about society as well as about one's own ability to make a difference.

It would seem that the commandment "thou shalt not kill" is open to interpretation.

Did god mean "thou shalt not murder your fellow humans"?(this would be the most likely meaning)

Did he mean " thou shalt not kill anything, animal,yourself or any other human"?

Did he mean "thou shalt not murder your fellow humans, but compasssionate euthanasia will be fine once you gain the knowledge of certain drugs that I will allow you to find in centuries to come when you are ready for this level of learning".

Since God hasnt appeared to answer questions thrown up by modern advances in medicine we cannot know for sure what it is that he would want us to do. I myself think that he would say "why dont you use your own commonsense and compassion. Dont prolong needless suffering and pain where there need be none." I see God as the ultimate intelligence and commonsense of the universe and I dont see why man is always attributing ideas that make no sense to God.

Haralambos; I agree with you that suicide and Euthanasia are different, but I would like to put the idea that suicide does cross over into the Euthanasia category more when physical suffering is involved. Light at the end of the tunnel can be harder to see when the physical suffering is permanent,( though not terminal.)

I would also put old age into a different suicide category. Old age doesnt go away either the deterioration and disability can keep declining with the years.

Then there is the Emotionally caused suicide, divorce, lost lover, lost job etc. while causing strong grief reactions and depression there is gaunranteed light at the end of the tunnel because this kind of grief will pass as time goes on and new avenues of life open up. It is an unnecessary tradgedy when someone takes their life over these kind of things and this is where society and all of us can be of great assistance in letting these people express their feelings to us and going with them to the doctor to see if some temporary medication would help them as they deal with their strong sadness.

It is good that you have bought attention to the awful number of suicides in this country. I believe I read somewhere recently that there have been more deaths caused by suicide than road deaths in Australia.
I knew there were a lot but that really surprised me. Does anyone know if thats true?

I have been out of the country for two years now but I know that it was certainly true then that more people under the age of 25 suicide than die in car accidents. This statistic remained static for many years and I wrote about it often - but you are the only person on this forum ever to express concern over it.I find it a terrible indictment upon us that no-one else ever seemed to consider this was even worthy of response, let alone shocking or even sad.

As I have asked more than once: if banner headlines can proclaim our holiday or annual road-death toll "slaughter" why not term our extremely high suicide rate "genocide"?

Romany wrote:

"As I have asked more than once: if banner headlines can proclaim our holiday or annual road-death toll "slaughter" why not term our extremely high suicide rate "genocide"?"

The suicide rate shouldn't be called "genocide" because it is not genocide. It would distort the word out of all meaning.

Genocide is the deliberate killing of a large group of people especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Sorry - I guess I got carried away and didn't make my meaning clear (to anyone other than myself). Of course its not genocide. But neither is the road toll "slaughter".

What I meant was that we accept - and in fact some of us then often repeat in further articles and speech - the hyperbolic term "slaughter" for something such as a road-death toll. In this instance media hyperbole is considered part of a shock campaign which works to fashion consciousness of an unacceptable state of affairs. In fact our road death toll, in comparison with many other countries, is not actually that high.

But our suicide rate is. It is also not simply underplayed but not brought to public attention as being unacceptable. If a deliberate shock campaign is considered and accepted as a useful strategy for public awareness with such florid terms in reference to traffic deaths then why not a public awareness strategy of the same magnitude for suicide? IN such a campaign "slaughter" could indeed be upgraded to genocide as the magnitude of the problem is greater.

It also remains true that certain traffic deaths and accidents are in fact part of suicide schemes. If such deaths were statistically re-classified they would work to increase our suicide statistic even more.

Romany wrote:

"But our suicide rate is. It is also not simply underplayed but not brought to public attention as being unacceptable. If a deliberate shock campaign is considered and accepted as a useful strategy for public awareness with such florid terms in reference to traffic deaths then why not a public awareness strategy of the same magnitude for suicide? IN such a campaign "slaughter" could indeed be upgraded to genocide as the magnitude of the problem is greater."

Large magnitude slaughter does not become genocide. Why must you redefine the word?

Suicide is a voluntary act. One reason not to do it is that the suicide may make others feel bad as his or her passing. However, if one harms no one else, causes sorrow to no one else and does not make a mess I don't see it as a problem.

In war people are killed who don't want to die. War is a problem. Suicide isn't.

Hi Romany,

I know that there's many good people outhere doing supportive stuff. But our suicide rate is still high. Doesn't this say that much more needs to be done?

Romany made a good point; why not a public awareness campaign for suicide? At first, I thought this was a good idea too. Then I remembered that awareness is not the problem, since we know it happens. What is is the fact that most people don't care. Whereas if they did, there'd be no problem.

Davidf

*Large magnitude slaughter does not become genocide. Why must you redefine the word?*

Aw really, I was making a point re media hyperbole. Accidents do not equate with slaughter either, do they? However, geno - as a prefix, can mean not only race or tribe but kind. Enough Australians suiciding could therefore be said to lead to the decimation of Australiankind - or the Australian race which would indeed be genocide, yeah?

*Suicide is a voluntary act. One reason not to do it is that the suicide may make others feel bad as his or her passing. However, if one harms no one else, causes sorrow to no one else and does not make a mess I don't see it as a problem.*

Suicide rarely causes sorrow to no-one else. The fact that the majority of suicides are young people means that not only does it *make others feel bad* but can ruin their lives.

Of course if you don't consider it a problem that's your prerogative. However coming into contact with people whose lives are affected by it I, personally, do consider it a problem.

Even if not considered as a problem in itself, wouldn't you at least concede that the fact that Australia has such a high rate of suicide would indicate that there were indeed problems within our society? The fact that significant numbers of young people in Australia prefer to die rather than to live here might also perhaps, give pause for reflection?

Hara - People do care. But its an issue that can't be fixed by something like lowering a speed limit or wearing a helmet. So they feel powerless and some even frightened. Media campaigns concerning mental health have proved effective but campaigns about suicide are very problematic. Raising consciousness is, I think, the first step and many see the mental health campaigns as indeed being the first step in raising this awareness.

ps. For some reason the inverted comma button on my keyboard is inoperable hence the asterisks.

Romany wrote:

"Aw really, I was making a point re media hyperbole. Accidents do not equate with slaughter either, do they? However, geno - as a prefix, can mean not only race or tribe but kind. Enough Australians suiciding could therefore be said to lead to the decimation of Australiankind - or the Australian race which would indeed be genocide, yeah?"

Why make a point through hyperbole? Why not make the point through reasoned argument using accepted meaning of words. It is a misuse of words to describe accidents as slaughter. That does not justify misusing the word, genocide. You use one misuse to justify another misuse.

Genocide is a horrible reality. Raphael Lemkin coined the word due to the Nazi mass murder of Jews, gypsies and others the Nazis considered untermenschen or subhuman because of their ethnicity or religion. It is something which is still going on today. It is a crime under international law. Using it in the way you do to refer to suicide fudges the reality. I find it objectionable.

Romany also wrote:

"Even if not considered as a problem in itself, wouldn't you at least concede that the fact that Australia has such a high rate of suicide would indicate that there were indeed problems within our society? The fact that significant numbers of young people in Australia prefer to die rather than to live here might also perhaps, give pause for reflection?"

Sure, a high rate of suicide like a high rate of alcoholism and other indicators of distress indicate there are problems within our society. That doesn't mean that suicide itself is a problem. It can mean a normal if extreme reaction to a life one finds is not worth living.

Why not try to remedy the problems that drive some people to suicide? For example, some teenage suicides are due to teenagers with uncertain sexuality being harassed. Homophobia is one problem of which suicide is a symptom.

This is relevant:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,23830799-2702,00.html

$460,000 sounds like just enough to work out how big the problem is.

Kieth -

As I'm sure you can gather from my poster name - I need no reminding of the meaning of the word genocide or the word's genesis.

As I continue to think you missed the point of what I said, and you continue to think I misused a word which you personally find objectionable lets just agree to disagree - and if your sensibilities were offended I apologise.

I don't see why you wish to make such a point out of your idea that suicide is not a problem, especially as we seem to be in agreement that the causes should be addressed.

I posted here a) because this is a field I've been involved in for a long time and b) because someone seemed to be viewing life with a jaundiced eye at the moment.

I just wanted to reassure that person that the world is not uncaring - not to engage in semantic quibbles.

So hey, if you want me to accept that you are right and I am wrong thats o.k.

Just so long as the message gets across that people do care about the issue of mental health and things (albeit perhaps not yet enough things) are being done to address the fact that suicide is a serious issue and more awareness is needed. So o.k., Harambalos - the cavalry might not be ready to charge to the rescue quite yet - but at least the horses are getting saddled!

I really hope it comforts you to know this.

Hi Romany,

Public awareness campaigns, like for mental health, are needed. But you seem to miss my point, which is that not enough people care. Once again, the reality is that if they did, and if they showed it to those who are suffering, suicide wouldn't be a problem.

Romany said, "the cavalry might not be ready to charge to the rescue quite yet - but at least the horses are getting saddled!"

I know its something, but, and here I go again, not enough! My initial point was to tell it how it is. Suicide is murder. I know this for a fact. I've been there. I know what its like. I felt so isolated, alone, frightened, angry, hurt, violated, and shut out. I wish I could say I had a choice. And I would rather have made it. Like I said, society kills, and most turn a blind eye. Now I also know that if others in my life were more caring, I would not have attempted. I'm past all that now, and I'll never go back. But I feel for anyone who might.

Well written Romany. I think most of us got the point you were making. Davidf got a bit stuck in semantics.

Haralambos, as Romany pointed out, there are many instances that do provide assistance, but I guess, you demonstrated the extreme isolation from all others a suicidal person feels. That is the difficult part. That a person who otherwise may know that there is indeed help, cannot seek that help when the chips are down, so to speak.

Society is not holding a loaded gun, but it is difficult for others in society to second guess when intervention is necessary in another's life. The person needing help is not able to seek it, so help cannot be provided.

As a person who has had experience with suicide within the family all I can say is that a person's suicide has devastating effects on many for a long, long time. From deep anger to guilt. For some sorrow didn't come until quite a few years later.

Maybe, we should all accept that many of us can experience a time when we feel that life is not worth living and therefore we need to learn to hold on to the fact that each and every one of us can walk through that valley of despair and come out the other end. We can only die from a broken heart, to use a cliche, when we are afraid of the grief.

First off - Got confused with threads and directed my last posting to Kieth instead of Davidf for some strange reason. Sorry 'bout that.

Hara - as Yvonne said "Society is not holding a loaded gun, but it is difficult for others in society to second guess when intervention is necessary in another's life. The person needing help is not able to seek it, so help cannot be provided."

Friends and relatives of those who have committed suicide are often completely amazed and one often hears them saying that they can't understand why, or they had no idea, or that the dead person gave no inkling that they were unhappy. At least two of the people in my life who have suicided were fully aware of the love that surrounded them and the help that was there and we, none of us who were left behind, had any idea of what was going on in their heads.

Each person's individual case is so very different. One may feel that nobody cares, another that the burden of care is just too much. Another person may feel unworthy of the abundant help or the good intentions of those around - as was my own experience. On the three different occasions I tried to suicide - and laid careful plans - each was thwarted through the most incredibly serendipitous sequence of events. Once by a person whom I considered to be total uncaring.

I DO understand what you are saying. I see your point about society seemingly having moved in a direction that you consider fosters despair, unhappiness and an all-for-me-and-bugger-the-rest-of-you ethos. The fact that our suicide rate is so high itself speaks of something that is wrong.

But it is important to keep in mind that we all construct our own reality. Two people experiencing the same event may view it from opposing viewpoints: one as a positive, one as a negative. The importance of mental health (having a healthy and balanced mentality) is to teach people to construct their own particular reality in a positive and not a negative way.

Suicide is not the problem. Treating it as something wrong is.

I knew two men who committed suicide. Neither left a note, but I think I know why they did it.

One was my father-in-law who cut his throat in the bathroom and was found by his grandson.

The other was a man of thirty who rode out in the desert and managed to end his life by the exhaust fumes.

My father in law was a widower in his nineties who was fed up with life. The other man was a really fine person with a good life, but as a teenager a pervert had raped him. He could not put the horrific episode out of his mind.

To me the tragedy was not the suicides, but the way in which they had been done.

My father-in-law was never going to be young again. His family cared for him, but he had enough of life. The way of his going was traumatic for his family especially his grandson. It was also traumatic for family and girlfriend of the thirty-year-old to be told that police had found a suicide in the desert. There seemed no way for his life to be other than a torment.

It would be reasonable to have suicide parlours where a suicide could be provided with the means of a peaceful and dignified exit after a waiting period. The suicide could change his or her mind until the final step. They would not have to die alone but could be surrounded by friends and family at the end.

Death would be dignified.

The choice should be ours if we want to leave this life.

I don't think we should conflate the questions of euthanasia and suicide on this thread. Apart from anything else euthanasia is a subject on which most people have very definite and fixed ideas and nothing except heated tempers usually results from discussing it on these threads.

The concern regarding suicide for me and, I am sure, quite a lot of other people, is the amount of young people who find life unendurable. Providing sanctioned spaces for teenagers and young adults or parents of dependent children to end their lives is also sanctioning the societal problems which led to them wanting to take that path. I would consider that a cop out. Those who were led to their decision not so much by societal pressures but by irrational or unclear thinking can also be helped and learn how to cope without resorting to the final solution.

Romany wrote: “I don't think we should conflate the questions of euthanasia and suicide on this thread.”

I agree. I was referring to suicide not euthanasia.

Romany also wrote: Providing sanctioned spaces for teenagers and young adults or parents of dependent children to end their lives is also sanctioning the societal problems which led to them wanting to take that path

It is not sanctioning those problems at all. We can act against those problems and at the same time give those whose lives are a torment because of those problems a way out.

Romany wrote: Providing sanctioned spaces for teenagers and young adults or parents of dependent children to end their lives is also sanctioning the societal problems which led to them wanting to take that path

Personal turmoil which the person cannot resolve even with help may lead the person to want to commit suicide without any societal problems causing that desire. They should have the option of a dignified exit.

David f -

Were you the one who found your grandfather? If so I can fully understand where you are coming from and why.

If not - then why the hell are you on my back every time I submit a post? I don't have exclusive rights to the views I express so why take issue only with me? Its becoming quite confrontational.

Romany wrote:

"If not - then why the hell are you on my back every time I submit a post? I don't have exclusive rights to the views I express so why take issue only with me? Its becoming quite confrontational."

I didn't think I was on your back. You just happen to be the person I disagree with the most. However, I hereby stop posting to this list. Goodbye. I wish you well.

Davidf, hope you are still there to read this, because by your frequent posting this appears to be a subject you have thought a lot about.

There could be a bit of confusion about the definitions of what some of us mean with suicide and what we understand voluntary euthanasia to be.

Strictly speaking voluntary euthanasia is suicide. Suicide that is assisted. If I understand you correctly, than you are proposing that euthanasia should be available to anybody who finds life unbearable, not only the terminally ill.

That is a huge statement, but something that I can relate to when considering the horror of finding somebody who has committed suicide.

Suicide is a problem. It results in psychological pain and suffering to those left behind. So, in effect, the failure to resolve the issues that led to the suicide in that one person's life is not finished with by that person's death. Even if it were assisted in some clinical setting, there is still failure to resolve issues that are in effect not life threatening, deeply emotionally distressing yes, but not life threatening.

Euthanasia to my mind is just when there is no hope of cure, suffering will only progressively become worse and death is imminent.

I have difficulty with justifying assisted suicide for emotional pain.

Yvonne wrote:

"Suicide is a problem. It results in psychological pain and suffering to those left behind. So, in effect, the failure to resolve the issues that led to the suicide in that one person's life is not finished with by that person's death. Even if it were assisted in some clinical setting, there is still failure to resolve issues that are in effect not life threatening, deeply emotionally distressing yes, but not life threatening.

I have difficulty with justifying assisted suicide for emotional pain."

Dear Yvonne,

I am posting because you addressed me.

I think part of the feeling against suicide is because of the religious prohibition. It also can be, as Col pointed out, a selfish act.

However, I think it is also an issue of freedom. Our lives do not belong to the church or the state. Our life should be ours to do with, as we will.

My grandfather was a man with a ready wit and an infectious smile. Then my grandmother died. I never saw him smile or laugh again. The light of his life had gone. I think he felt he had to keep going, but his life became meaningless. Short of bringing her back to life there was absolutely nothing we could do.

We cannot feel another's physical, mental or emotional pain, but his suffering seemed intense.

If he had ended it all I think we would have been relieved that he was no longer suffering.

David, thank you.

I agree with you in principle. Any autonomous person, emotionally and psychologically sound, should be able to determine his life and his death.

Harambalos is referring to suicide committed by a person who, as Romany pointed out, erroneously feels completely isolated and alone. A person who would not otherwise do so rationally, but at a particular point feels totally abandoned. Suicide because the person is suffering from depression.

Depression, because it looks like sadness to non-sufferers, is difficult for others to comprehend. We've all felt sad at some point in our lives, some of us may even have been depressed to various degrees for while, but not seriously contemplated dying.

A depressed person does not rationally make a considered decision to end life.

Harambalos, it is not that society, family and friends do not care, but looking at it standing in their shoes, it is a very frightening concept. As despairing as a depressed person feels, as frightened, overwhelmed and even confronted the other feels. A person close to you apparently choosing death over life is confronting. Just as a deeply depressed person feels abandoned, those left behind have that same feeling of abandonment through the act of suicide-abandoned, discarded and worthless. Why didn't s/he love me enough to stay alive?

That's why, Harambalos, those closest to you are probably not the best to give you help. Those closest have their own feelings to deal with as well, expressed as anger, frustration, helplessness, fear and grief.