BRONWYN :)

fascinating to see the interaction between you and Steel.....

Your arguments are 'very' "conservative".. you allude to a nude 13 yr old in the 19th century... and how it might be regarded....

*BINGO*.... exactly... "things" have changed.. yes indeedy..but how.. and why?

Steel has a stab at it:

<<Advertising and the media have nothing to do with it. They are not mind control.>>

err.. COUGH.. SPLUTTER... CHOKE...GAG..... COLLAPSES.. recovers.. (an hour later)...and now..am able to resume this post!

Dear Steel.. you MUST resume taking your medication AND go back to your therapist :)

The media have EVerything to 'do' with it.

They DO exercise 'mind control'...but in subliminal ways. I mean..after all, they have convinced 'you' that they have no impact on you..

Now..tying this together with Bronny's post.. and wondering why Bronwyn is now espousing very 'conservative' ideas, yet apparently without any Christian conviction? (B, you can put me straight there)

...I just hope Bronwyn will be more sympathetic to those of us who cry out against the commercially driven media.. and this includes the overflowing pornography now available at every petrol station.
Are they not 'media'?

More and more local papers are including, or providing 'Personals' which in many cases are really just ads for hookers and deviates.

It has to do with out VALUE SYSTEM..which is shaped by the Media and by pressure groups. INCLUDING Artists and their supporters.

MIUAUG.. down...down...ever downward.. not up.

SOLUTION?

Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Lets all goto "Him".. in faith.

Brilliant post Yvonne.

Ludwig and Yvonne

Your reasoned articulation of the true basis for society's sexual confusion and disfunction was clear to anyone not blinded by narrow definitions of sexuality.

"Yes. There should be whole lot more nudity in art, and exposure to non-pornographic nudity in the general community. Let’s demystify the nude body and make it perfectly normal and acceptable. The work of Bill Henson, Sally Mann http://www.google.com/search?q=sally+mann, etc should be celebrated, and not looked at sideways with any sense of inappropriateness."

While we continue to see sex as dirty and pass that prejudice on to our children, we will continue to be exploited.

As Yvonne pointed out, most child abuse occurs by people the child knows - not some seedy stranger in a long coat. Children brought up to respect themselves and are aware of their rights to their own bodies are less likely to be preyed upon.

I don't believe that the levels of child abuse have increased - just that we know and talk about it more; part of the enlightenment I was talking about. And we should be grateful for that. Whether you approve of artists like Henson or not, his work has incited a necessary debate and a timely look at ourselves and how we teach our children about sexuality.

I really urge people to check out Vanilla's link to a succinctly written blog of an experience by a woman when she posed nude for a photographer as a young girl. Think about the difference between children brought up to be comfortable with their bodies and those who are taught that their bodies and sexual feelings are shameful.
Who are more likely to be exploited?
Who are more likely to develop sexual disfunctions?
Who are more likely to hold distorted ideas about the opposite sex?

http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=1773

One absolute, non-negotiable aspect of this debate is one of Age of Consent. Either a young person can give legal consent or they can’t. It is simple and clear cut.

In support of the legal arguments relating to the issue of consent there is also vast scientific proof that the developing adolescent brain is not able to make well informed and safe decisions. It has been scientifically proven that the part of the adolescent brain ( the pre-frontal cortex) that is responsible for making sound and well thought out decisions is not fully developed yet.

This is evident in the risk-taking behaviors that are characteristic of the teenage years. The pre-frontal cortex is responsible for "executive" functions—planning, setting priorities, organizing thoughts, suppressing impulses and weighing the consequences of one's actions. This means the part of the brain young people need the most to develop good judgment and decision-making develops last! ”

Refer to these links for more information
http://www.medinstitute.org/content.php?name=teenbraindevelopment

http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=news-in-rev/teen-frontal

What is non-negotiable is that the young ones are not in any position to give consent- informed or otherwise. So, perhaps the parents of these young individuals photographed have lost their moral compass in providing their approval for the photographs to be taken- that’s another argument really

This is indeed a truly interesting discussion. I particularly like the approaches of Vanilla, yvonne, Fractelle and Ludwig to what is clearly an issue that affects many people surprisingly deeply. I don't think Steel is doing his case many favours by his approach to those who differ, even if they are 'wrong'.

Fractelle: << I don't believe that the levels of child abuse have increased - just that we know and talk about it more.. >>

Yes. It's been a while since I've seen any reliable figures on this topic, but I seem to recall that most reliable sources suggest that it's not the incidence (or prevalence) of sexual abuse of children that's increased in recent years - but rather that we're more aware of it because it's being reported more often. Again, this is a subject about which there's a large body of peer-reviewed literature, which is ignored by the 'moral panic' - of which this case is a classic example.

TammyJo: << The pre-frontal cortex is responsible for "executive" functions—planning, setting priorities, organizing thoughts, suppressing impulses and weighing the consequences of one's actions. This means the part of the brain young people need the most to develop good judgment and decision-making develops last! >>

I understand that recent research indicates that this process isn't fully developed until about the age of 25. Clearly, people shouldn't be allowed to have sex until that age. Sorry, but that's a really dumb argument.

As is the conflation of the age of consent for having sex with posing as a nude artist's model. Posing for an artist is not the equivalent of having sex, no matter how some people associate them subjectively.

Steel>"You really think .....that child abuse was less than now?!??"
Bronwyn>Yes I do.

Children were basically slaves. You should learn some history before talking about it.

Bronwyn>"Besides....would have been viewed by a very small percentage of the population"

For the nth time, a picture of a naked child in one place, is exactly the same as in another place. The amount of reproductions of said picture has no impact on it's content.

Steel>"If you see something sexual in pictures of a naked child then you are a pedophile by definition."

Bronwyn>"I myself see nothing sexual in photos of naked children but unfortunately millions out there do."

Roflmao....there are millions of pedophiles out there? they won't even fit in our prison system....Do you even realise how ridiculious that amount is? .....talk about hysteria, paranoia and fear. If that shameless statistic has come from these ngos then they need to be investigated for fraud.

BOAZ>"The media....DO exercise 'mind control'...but in subliminal ways. I mean..after all, they have convinced 'you' that they have no impact on you.."

yes, but mind control? I am supposed to believe here, that the media make people into pedophiles and furthermore, would 'make me' assault someone depicted in them. (This is why these people are saying there is an inherent 'danger' in even showing these images...'they will manipulate people) That's the reasoning here. In other words, advertising could make me a gay man. If you are a decent parent you have nothing to fear anyway. Interestingly you give an example:

BOAZ>"...commercially driven media....the overflowing pornography...at every petrol station....'Personals' which...are really....hookers and deviates."

Of course, if advertising is mind control, then there is a perfectly good existing reason to redact and control ALL forms of media and entertainment in society, so that "the children aren't harmed". This would make Australia nearly equivalent to China, and a de-facto theocratic state (which is the Australian Christian agenda). Luckily (or not as facts and logic is often ignored in these cases), they are demonstrably not mind control.