I have a very good reason to be angry about this whole affair Belly.

Other than that I thought that I had made it clear that I have little interest in your opinion?

(And cut the nonsense about defamation. You wouldn't know what it was if you fell over it!)

Ludwig I agree with you, in fact thought from my first post this was true.
I am no defender of any form of harm to children but this is not such a thing.
Nore am I a devil worshiper or even near it but I am truly honestly concerned at some Christian views that it is wrong.
Remember it was Christians who once burnt people at the stake and even cooked them slowly till dead for not agreeing with them.
Ginx, in debate a rebuttal of your opponents views is often used.
Here is my rebuttal in full, go to your post history read every one of your sometimes wild angry posts.
I rest my case.

FASCINATING...... all this love and warmth :) Ginx.. u excelled yourself that time "throw a punch"? good grief.

Paul L.. time for me to take a chunk out of your rear end :)

Not really..but you said:

"What I am suggesting is that 16 is the age when we consider that children are capable of making significant decisions about their bodies. It’s clearly an appropriate place to draw the line, if we agree that one is needed."

Indeed! A few aspects of your words require some 'interpretive' work.

"we"..is....who?

"Significant" -means?

"Clearly" - to ..who?

All that is hinged to 'if' ...we agree....

A lot of variables there mate :)

My concern here is that in saying that, (while I agree with the sentiments), it doesn't sufficiently recognize that there are powerful vested interests out there, both ideological and economic, who are VERY interested in defining who 'we' are, and promoting that definition to the public with their specific interests in mind.

So.. I am offering this by way of qualiification/supplementing what you said.

It should also be apparent to yourself, that MIUAUG does not really offer us much hope for enduring and predictable values for our community. (that's the lead in to the obligatory Bible bash :)

The volume of traffic (and emotion) on this thread screams out 'MANY ARE CONFUSED' about multiple issues, legal, moral, artistic etc.

Well, I started this thread, and it saw some great OLO-style debate, so I guess it's as good a place as any...

I'm going to take my leave of this forum now. I need to focus on other things. A personal crisis has put a lot of stuff into perspective for me. I need to be with my husband. I need to work. I have other projects demanding my attention.

I've had some fascinating conversations and hilarious and moving connections on OLO. Even the fights have been fun. The best of these conversations have been those where people are open-minded enough to listen to other people's point of view and really scrutinise their own position. I am loathe to point out people, because I have some great friends on this forum, but R0bert has always struck me as particularly able to give serious thought to opposing points of view — it's real intellectual bravery, I think. I've tried to learn from it. For what it's worth, the whole idea of a "gang" is just silly — I think we're all too independent for that — but there are groups of like-minded people on this forum as there are in all walks of life, and it's been fun to see them form over some issues and dissolve over others.

Thank you all for a fun, funny, and edifying time.

Vanilla

Your opinion here was insightful Vanilla and I'm glad you were present.

Take care Vanilla.

Come back soon - you'll be missed.