West, you completely forget that even the head of the employers,
is in fact an employee, a worker, representing the interests of
owners, ie. other workers. (our trillion in super remember)

Everyone has choices. Choices to go and work for a better company,
one who appreciates their skills. Choices to do away with employment
and sell their labour direct to consumers. You West, could easily
buy a broom, bucket and mop tomorrow and start
"Westie's Cleaning Services". No need for those evil companies.
You would be free as a bird, apart from one, the consumer. If
you want consumers to pay you money, you have to sell what you have,
or they like you, have a right not to buy.

If there is a cartel, its only one, the unions. Companies cannot
shop between unions, they are faced with one option, take it or
leave it.

It seems to me Westie, that you want the power to force others,
to pay you to go to work and pick your nose or whatever. That
might suit you, but it might not suit those others, who actually
work hard, make their contribution and who want a return on their
superannuation investment Dollar. If those workers then fire
you for not doing your bit, why should you complain?

Yabbie I work hard for my income I am fortunate in two ways, I can set my own price and if Australian business can not afford my services I can simply relocate overseas. I also enjoy what I do. I have choice, most Australians do not. If there were work choices mothers wouldn’t be running around trying to work two or three jobs just to make enough to feed and house their children in the mean time being bled dry through childcare and travel cost and also looking after disabled aging parents because the federal government has cut funding and grants to aged care to redirect money into buying votes.

The problem is you are degrading Australians into aggregates. Australians are flesh and blood with real anthropogenic imperatives. Australians are the not cartoon parodies of Andy Capp the lazy good for nothing unionist. The useless worker, the bludger, Australians are real people, real battlers. The question for Australia now since Howard has imposed his 19th Century Dickens based IR laws onto the Australian People is what relevance has the commercial sector now? What positive benefit is there to the Australian people? When will they receive such a benefit? Consider that most business will dissolve and the vast majority are poorly managed, profit is inherently inefficient. What benefit is there in having a multitude of temporary businesses ripping Australians off?

West, Australia is made up of all sorts of people. Look around
you, plenty are thriving and prospering. I look at some of
the 20somethings, they have opportunities and options that
we just never had when we were 20somethings. Those that
grab them, can do anything.

The thing is, people will be people. They forget Murphy's
law, they overborrow, they make mistakes, they get into
situations of struggle. Its not wages that are the problem,
but the problem of being human, battling between emotion
and reason, some get it wrong and it will always be
that way. If say somebody is a pokies addict, doesent
matter what you pay them, they will still be in trouble.
Sadly, people often need pain to learn lifes lessons.

Crippling an economy with inefficiencies, so that businesses
cannot compete on global markets, so that we Aussies can
pay our bills to the world, is not the way to solve
anything. It just drags us all down in the end.

Let people operate at their potential. Give them choices,
let them be innovative. Don't hold them back because
of some flawed ideology. In the end, everyone benefits,
even those that get it so wrong in life.

Yabby the economy was not crippled before Howard imposed his 19th century IR laws onto the Australian people. The new IR laws are extremely ineffificient. The cost of labour has inflated through the IR laws , it is just that the cost has been directed to the Australian people who cannot afford it. The IR laws do not benefit the Australian people and so do not benefit Australia at all.The IR laws are nothing more than a party sponsor buying excersise. It is impossible to pretend that the IR laws have any benefit to Australia at all, no matter your spins on the value of the dollar ect.

West, fact is that neither you nor I can predict what effects the
new IR laws will have on the Australian economy. Time will tell.
At the moment you are simply guessing, based on your fixed
ideology. Rational thinking is about waiting to see what the
evidence shows, somewhere down the track.

What we do know is that the world has changed and is changing.
What was yesterday is past, the future matters.

Trying to compete on wage levels, is not our future in Australia,
but innovation and the flexibility associated with that, matter
vitally. We won't pay our import bills by being dogmatic.

I've seen too much heavy handed union thuggery, misuse of power
etc, to think that that is the way to adapt to a changing world.

I've been both an employer and employee, so can speak from both
sides of the fence. Smart employers know that their staff are
the most vital part of their business, so they should be looked
after. Employees who simply have no aptitude for something, are
better off finding something that they actually like doing, to
achieve win-win outcomes for all. Thats the best way to progress,
not by forcing people into straightjackets, that they might not
be happy about wearing.

West, you are completely correct..The workers are the backbone of the Nation..without the workers there is no class structure..Certainly no Upper would be more precise to say..they feed of the labour of the worker who keep the tax system up and running.Without a healthy tax system there is nothing else..our whole economy is financed from taxes...and so are our politicians..no gravy train for them if working class down tools tomorrow and all go on the dole..mmmm ..tempting.

So any system..IR laws that destroy right of workers will , eventually see a revolt..how is that good policy for the health of a working nation that relies so heavily on its tax base?

Our whole sociological structure is based on a class system designed to keep workers with their noses to the grindstone and the wheels of the economy working..its called Stratification.. the Bouergoise and the Proletariat..ie lower, Middle and Upper classes.

see link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat