Only in Australia!!





It is interesting that the federal government provides a single refugee with a monthly allowance of $1,890.00 and each can also get an additional $580.00 in social assistance for a total of $2,470.00.



A single pensioner who, after contributing to the growth and development of Australia for 40 to 50 years, receives only a monthly maximum of $1,012.00 in old age pension and> Guaranteed Income supplement.

Maybe our pensioners should apply as refugees!



Let's send this to all Australians so we can all be ticked off and maybe we> can get the refugees cut back> to $1,012.00 and the pensioners up to $2,470.00 and enjoy some of the money we were forced to submit to the Government over the last 40 or 50 years.

Please forward to every Australian to expose what our electedp oliticians> are doing to the over-taxed Australian

Only in Australia!! Oh, and Canada... and America, and basically most western countries where email hoaxes abound. A quick search on the government website provided absolute refutation of this claim in a media release last September, which I have copied and pasted below:

DIAC refutes internet claims on refugee payments
Media Release - 7 September 2007

The Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC) has
refuted false claims circulating on the internet that refugees
settling in Australia receive more in benefit payments than
Australian pensioners.

'The figures quoted in the email bear no resemblance to income-
support payments to pensioners, or to payments to refugees
settling in Australia,' DIAC spokesman Sandi Logan said today.

'The text and figures in the email appear to have originated in
Canadian emails, websites and internet chatrooms. We suspect
that the email circulating here has been cut and pasted from
these sources.

'In Australia, refugees granted permanent visas may gain access
to benefits on the same basis and at the same rates as other
Australian permanent residents.

'Refugees with temporary visas do not have access to the full
range of benefits - they are only eligible for Centrelink
Special Benefits on the same basis and rates as other
Australian residents.

'There is no separate rate of benefit payments for refugees.'

Mr Logan said refugees received no cash payments under
Australia’s Integrated Humanitarian Settlement Strategy.

'DIAC helps eligible refugees with basic goods to start a
household, subsidies for rent and utilities for their first
four weeks in the country, English-language lessons and
settling-in assistance,' he said.

'Asylum seekers in Australia who have not yet had their
protection claims decided have no access to Centrelink benefits.

'The Asylum Seeker Assistance Scheme administered by the
Australian Red Cross provides some publicly funded financial
assistance to eligible asylum seekers who are unable to meet
their most basic support needs.

'We would strongly encourage anyone who receives an email
claiming refugees are treated more favourably than Australian
permanent residents to hit the delete button and ignore these
scurrilous claims,' Mr Logan added.

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/media-releases/2007/d07033.htm

HAHAHA

Burned!

it's always the people who *want* to believe it...

pwnd

PALE,
I see that scenario every day. Anyone not believing it is simply a left-wing moron & really never will be of use to a "normal" society. Unfortunately, the Ostrich syndrome is thriving in Australia & should be listed on the share market.

Ain't it the truth, individual. Only a real chardonnay-sipping, latte-guzzling, hybrid 4WD-driving, ABC-watching, Fairfax-reading, Sydney Uni Alumni-belonging, Patrick White-worshiping, homosexual lobby-believing-in, inner-city-living, Fran Kelly-listening, refugee-supporting, Keating-admiring, my-kids-go-to-selective-school-saying, Fair Trade-buying, Labor-loving moron would believe something obviously true, eh?

Here's the snopes report: http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/refugees.asp

Apparently only "left wing morons" watch the ABC. This piece of unadulterated chain-letter bullcrap was featured when it made the letters section in several newspapers word for word.

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s2191987.htm

Take your head out of your rear.

Another well-researched and factual claim on behalf of "People Against Live Exports and Intensive Farming".

Such a worthy organisation.

Dear PALE&IF,

I looked up Robby's given website:

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/media-rekeases/2007/d07033.htm

which turned out to be a Media Release from The Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC) which has refuted claims circulating on the internet that refugees settling in Australia receive more in benefit payments than Australian pensioners.

"The figures quoted in the email bear no resemblance to income-support payments to pensioners, or to payments to refugees settling in Australia," DIAC spokesman Sandi Logan said today (12/04/08).

"We would strongly encourage anyone who receives an email claiming refugees are treated more favourably than Australian permanent residents to hit the delete button and ignore these scurrilous claims," Mr Logan added.

Dear PALE&IF - you may want to check this out for yourself. It seems that perhaps someone has given you misleading information.

Media Enquiries: DIAC National Communications (02) 6264-2244.

Ah credibility is like virginity,

when it is gone, it is gone forever.

Interesting that it came from the same bunch who want us to hate the Japanese, the sheep farmers, etc

C'mon people. You're getting in the way of a good excuse to pillory those danged migrants.

Since when have facts been more important than popular misconceptions anyway?

Jeez. Way to spoil it.

Gawd!! Not THAT bliddy crap AGAIN!

(Still,-thanks PALEIF,- it was worth it just to see all these lovely replies!).

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming
What is your problem with migrants and refugees? WE ARE GOOD PEOPLE!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

You eat meat don't you? Recent immigrants are far harder to indoctrinate into veganism than pasty white locals who have not seen a farm for 3 generations. Hence any misleading scare campaign against immigrants (especially non-european ones) is going to help her cause.

This is symptomatic of the feelings of a lot of people in the community in general, who are now really starting to feel the pinch, as prices of everything seem to be spiralling through the roof! They are simply looking for someone to blame, or at least to listen to their woes!

I did notice a "reputable" person offer the opinion that Australia, although being a large country with a relatively sparse population, it has now passed its sustainability level commensurate with its current population, due mainly to harsh conditions and lack of infrastructure. He suggested that the Immigration level be either reduced or stopped altogether until the authorities can meet the infrastructure demands needed to accomodate the current population in a satisfactory and adequate manner!

We CANNOT spend the rest of our lives beating the "populate or perish" drum and we should be now setting an example to the rest of the world by accomodating the existing community in a sustainable manner!....we have sadly NOT learnt from Britain`s mistakes in its massive multiculturalism and gross overpopulation and we do NOT want this country to go the same way!

The age-old rhetoric of "we cannot get workers as Australians don`t want to work!" is wearing a bit thin!.......there are lots of people out there in the community drawing unemployment or family benefits who simply do NOT want to work. ....these people should be given the simple option,.. work or no support at all....then we would see how many "available" workers would appear!......Certainly there are a lot of people out there, who have squandered away their education opportunities and appear to the system as being unemployable, but lets face the real issue, these same people can be employed cleaning up the rubbish on the sides of the roads, and many other menial tasks that they consider unpalatable!......Everybody should be forced to do their share unless they are genuinely disabled or severely handicapped!

freediver, PALEIF has clearly stated in the past that they don't think pushing vegan habits is the solution to animal cruelty issues.

Their policy seems to be to support the use of local slaughter rather than live transport and to try to work to ensure that food animals are raised and slaughtered in the most humane manner possible.

I don't recall ever seeing them advocating not eating meat.

R0bert

Vanilla,
Hey, I'm many of those things you listed and I didn't believe it for a second.

They sound more like the eager beliefs of a beer swilling, Commodore-driving, TCN 9-watching, Telegraph-reading, John Laws-worshiping, poofter-bashing, suburban-living, Anna Coren-watching, refugee-hating, Howard-hugging, abos-get-a-better-deal-than-whites-saying, eBay-shopping, Liberal-loving moron.

Just the sort of thing you hear vomited up by the shock-jocks eh?

*I don't recall ever seeing them advocating not eating meat.*

Actually not so Robert. To her credit, Gertrude is about the
only one out of the veggie/vegan movement, who accepts that
meat eating is not going to go away all of a sudden and that
local slaughter is better then live exports, in her opinion.

The way I recall it, amongst the many posts, is that she
has admitted to being a closet veggie, wishing us farmers
would grow halal vegetables instead of meat. The plan is
to open a chain of halal veggie burger restaurants and then
show people videos of what goes on inside meatworks, to
boost her sales and put them off meat.

She has forgotten of course that the waft of my " Yabby's
Yummy Lamb Burgers" will drift past their noses and
they will feel compelled to throw her video in the rubbish
bin :)

people should be worrying how much it costs to detain them...absolutely ridiculous and outrageous

Almost word for word the same as my e mail, deleted instantly but if you want to believe that trash you can.
It is so clearly lies and so clearly from extremists right and left that I found it hard to see anyone thought it was true.
Well nearly any one.

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming
What is your problem with migrants and refugees? WE ARE GOOD PEOPLE!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
AS,
I didn't get the feeling that PALE is against migrants & refugees ? My perception is that he's merely drawing attention to the much denied fact that there are people in this country who, after working 40 & more years receive less attention & support than those who arrived here only recently. Don't get the idea that pointing out a fact means that you dislike somebody. People must pull their head out of the sand & learn to accept facts. I for one do not appreciate that doing nothing can earn someone many generous benefits funded in part by me. There's one hell of a difference between helping someone in need & handing out indiscriminately to those not in need. If you feel it's ok that your tax Dollar is morally misused then fine but it's not ok by me.

Belly,
do you find it acceptable that non-citizens of Australia should receive benefits denied to citizens ? Do you consider it morally right that non-citizens should receive education provided by taxpayers but denied to citizens ? Do you think it moral that someone doing literally nothing all day is provided a $600,00.00 house for $50 a week & someone who works can not even gain entitlement for a housing loan ? I think these arguments fit into the message PALE put forward. It has absolutely nothing to do with liking or disliking someone. It's the imbalance that's the core of the issue.

Individual,

I cannot help but be impressed by the way you realise that the truth consists of things that *you want to believe* are true, and don't get distracted by things that are *actually* true.

Did you know the government rates refugees in order of blackness? Very black refugees, like people from the Sudan and stuff, get up to $1,000,000 a year and aobut $6,000 a week (tax free) a house and full Austudy for all their kids and — get this — their kids' kids. I couldn't believe this when I first heard it. So unfair. And also their medicare extends to witch doctors. Can you believe that?

You wouldn't read about it. Literally.

individual,
I know PALE from her posts, few weeks before when I wrote against Pauline Hanson she wrote 'I just wish [people like you would go home.'
individual, I work more than 40 hours per week and I paid TAX as everyone else. I do not think PALE cares very much for taxpayers,this is an excuse, often she writes against migrants or refugees. You know that what she wrote is not truth
'The Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC) has refuted false claims circulating on the internet that refugees settling in Australia receive more in benefit payments than Australian pensioners.'
I understand PALE but I am from the other site of the ...river, I am with migrants and refugges!
We can not return the history back.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Vanilla's on the money again. I hear that, not only do the blackest immigrants get more than $1,000,000.00 a year, but they get an extra half million if they're Muslim as well, plus their own personal mosque in their backyard. Right next to the free halal barbecue.

And if they're black and gay, well they can write their own cheques.

Yep, CJ, you got it in one. In fact, individual, they actually let the refugees ride on the backs of Aussies to get into town, like mules.

Individual - what part of 'the department of immigration has pointed out this is just plain bullsh!t' is the hard part?

Are you that determined to believe the worst?

Individual first thing you got wrong PALE is no bloke.
The spam e mail as I said word for word is a lie.
You disappoint me I truly though we would not find another who believed it.
This country has prospered by its intake of refugees ww2 on .
Restating lies will change nothing the claim is a lie.

Are you that determined to believe the worst?
TRTL & Belly,
Haven't you ever had any dealings with departments ? From personal experience with departmental staff I have no reason not to believe those claims. In fact, I'd be very surprised if they weren't based on fact. Is there any way we can get these claims clarified by placing extracts from the actual immigration policy into a post ?
No-one disputes that migrants contributed to the prosperity of Australia & I'm not criticizing migrants I'm one myself after all. The issue here is about the changing conditions. Those migrants who helped Australians, who are also migrants, build this country did not receive the generous benefits & had to work damned hard.
I have no problem with new migrants being given the opportunity to work their way up but I do object to up-front preferential treatment given to people who have yet to proof their commitment.

HAHAHA you're a cracker, individual- no doubt about that!

ASymeonakis,
Firstly for the life of me I dont know where you get= I wonder what OLO readers make of this - to pale agrees or whatever.

All of the posters here bar one fully know that pale are fighting to get Migrants IN THE country.

Around one hundred and eighty visas required thank you very much.

However they are some migrants that atre nothing but trouble makers and I have found you Tony to be such a person.

Never ever have you said one thing good about Australia or this country that has been so good to you.

Migrants have been part of my life when I was so proud of my parents for talk to the so called wogs and each weekend we vited the migrant hostel.
They never complained and they wre beautiful people.

That aside I did take onboard some research John Laws did where he dedicated at least a half an hour of his show before he retired.

Tony you clearly stated the ASTIC money was for us. I asked you who was us? You refused to reply.

There was a group that wanted there own political party and that were very upset when the ATIC funds were frozen

I think its just a case with you that when you said -We will vote you out and the main stream Aussies you gave away your cover.

I am privy with further information as to certain funds that were in need of a closer eye.

It goes simply without saying it was a 'pleasure' to be of assistance.

Come by all means and take up position with our organisation.

We want another 150 thousand. That is what we work for. So dont tell me we dont want migrants. Just last week we took on the Minister of imagration for that very reason.

BUT we dont want people like you who make it clear you hate us.

Very simple really- We want nice migrants wanting to become Aussies and love this country as most do.

These people have never worked, or paid taxes so what right have they to bludge off the taxpayers.For refugees to receive more than Aussie pensioners who have paid their dues is obscene,no wonder so many head for our shores.To add insult to injury they call which ever country they haled from as home,with no intention to speak,read or write Australian.Yet the government are also bowing down to large companies & allowing more unskilled people in, when we can't sustain the one's already here,they are just compiling the already existing problems.They have lost the plot,the only way Aussies get a fair go is to register as refugee's.We can't go to their countries & be housed,fed and paid.

Vanilla, TRTL, Anthony etc.,

So. What was your reaction to the preceding post? Did it make you want to weep, laugh hysterically or just say "Wot the...."?

PS Vanilla - you asked on another thread about my reactions to the China/Lhasa thing? I've written an article. Will let you know when it'll be published. Have also started blogging about China and life here. If you're at all interested I can happily give you the URLs.

individual please remember you too could be wrong, evidence has been put in front of you that you are , you do not want to consider it.
Romany that post? it reminds me of bigotry and refusal to understand we are all human.
Another post hides behind the view if you disagree with the poster you hate them!
The thread started with the exact words from an e mail many of us deleted as soon as we got it.
It was racist in its intent and played on fears most have about some minority's from within some migrant groups.
If we took the time we could find they very same concerns within white Australian community's.
I welcome refugees all of them and know most have lived in fear and poverty for too long.
In time no less than post ww2 refugees they will repay this country over and over.

individual please remember you too could be wrong, evidence has been put in front of you that you are , you do not want to consider it.
Belly,
I openly admit that I could be wrong and, if I am, I will state so but, so far, no-one as yet has provided any fact-based evidence to my statements. there are disagreements yes, but no statements to actually prove me wrong, merely some opposing opinions. i have asked quite a few times for factual evidence on OLO but usually no-one replies. I only get critcism. As to this debate the fact that some people believe that refugee migrants get a better deal than citizen who worked all their live I have yet to see evidence that this is not the case but there's plenty of opinions & attacks on those trying to get enlightened on the subject & propose a solution. Criticism alone does not offer a solution, constructive criticism does, or is that yet another fallacy ? I'm not actually interested in being "proven" right or wrong. I mean what actually is right or wrong ? my interest is to find a solution to the imbalance in so many aspects of our society.

Individual, I don't suppose you've heard of a wonderful free Internet site called Google? If you go to that site and type in the search string 'refugee benefits australia', Google will return links to many websites with information that refutes both your credulous bigotry and that of PALE&IF and the [deleted by moderator] Anng.

In particular, this one seems quite authoritative:

<< DIAC refutes internet claims on refugee payments
Media Release - 7 September 2007

The Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC) has refuted false claims circulating on the internet that refugees settling in Australia receive more in benefit payments than Australian pensioners.

'The figures quoted in the email bear no resemblance to income-support payments to pensioners, or to payments to refugees settling in Australia,' DIAC spokesman Sandi Logan said today.

'The text and figures in the email appear to have originated in Canadian emails, websites and internet chatrooms. We suspect that the email circulating here has been cut and pasted from these sources.

'In Australia, refugees granted permanent visas may gain access to benefits on the same basis and at the same rates as other Australian permanent residents. >>

[ http://www.immi.gov.au/media/media-releases/2007/d07033.htm ]

I'll await your promised retraction, but in the meantime perhaps you'd like to reflect upon why it is that you and others are so eager to believe hateful spam e-mails like the one on which PALE&IF's execrable original post was based.

No fact-based evidence, only opinions, individual? You have to be the worst debater I have ever seen on this forum.

The second post provided a link and a reprint of a Dept. of Immigration statement, it has been repeated in several posts to this forum also:
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/media-releases/2007/d07033.htm

Vanilla provided a Snopes link detailing the history of the viral email: http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/refugees.asp

I provided a Media Watch report on the email also, that details the publication of it in several Australian newspapers:
http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s2191987.htm

Only opinion based? You asked for fact-based evidence but no one usually replies? No wonder, you don't bother reading anything.

Some people think that once you resort to calling someone names you've lost an argument. I disagree, in this case you are clearly a [deleted by moderator].

Apologies to Robby - I forgot you'd already posted that information above. However, I don't suppose it hurts to reiterate the clear refutation by the Australian government of this hate-spam, since a couple of people clearly don't get it.

This is simply hilarious.

Individual, until refugees' claims are decided, they get no Centrelink benefits at all. If they are found to be genuine refugees (an extremely difficult process) they go on temporary visas. They then have limited access to Centrelink benefits — they can apply for Centrelink Special Benefits on the same basis and rates as other Australian residents. Not all do, of course — most get jobs. In the first four weeks they are here, under Australia’s Integrated Humanitarian Settlement Strategy, some refugees get help with basic goods to start a household and subsidies for rent and utilities. They do not get cash.

When they become permanent residents, they have they same access to Centrelink payments as you or I. If they are unemployed they can go on Newstart allowance. Everyone on Newstart gets $424.38 per fortnight. A person on an Aged Pension Payment receives $525.10 per fortnight.

However, despite all that, one thing is certain — man never walked on the moon. Seriously. They set it all up in the desert in Nevada. Did you see that wind? There's not wind on the moon.

Romany, the idea of reading your beautiful prose in more than 350 word blocks is very exciting. Please let me know about article and blog. If you have any anonymity worries, you can email me at vanillasometimes@yahoo.com

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/media-releases/2007/d07033.
Hmm ? I can't see where it says how much is actually being paid.
Dept. official statements? well, they must be true eh ? like there's a flawless justice system, a flawless health system, a flawless etc. etc. We don't have pensioners living in poverty & all other discrimination etc.? Hey, I mean Govt. always tells us how good things are ?
It's all just vivid imagination. What are we all on about if all we need is a departmental refute.
I must admit I do not have first hand knowledge of how much refugees receive in monetary benefits but I have first hand experience on what is provided to people who choose to depend on others.
I don't know how many of you are of academic background & therefore would not know what working physically for a living entails but, I can assure you that people who make a living through physical exertion want to see their tax Dollar spent in a morally more appropriate manner than has been the way over recent years.

Individual,

As I pointed out above, refugees don't get a special allowance. Once they formalise the rigorous and convuluted process that is becoming a permanent resident, they can get Newstart. See here for the rates: http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/payments/pay_how_nsa.htm

The aged pension rates are here: http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/payments/pay_how_agepens.htm

As you can see, the latter is higher than the former.

Can you at least explain what bit you don't understand?

You know, I've always wondered how scams like this work. Obviously, it takes two to three minutes to find out this is bogus. Yet you so want it to be true that you seem to be unable to use your brain.

There really is a sucker born every minute.

PS. I have got this great bridge you should buy. Check it out here: http://www.photosbyjay.com.au/images/tips/leica-m8-harbour-bridge.jpg

Seriously. For you, cheap as. Let me know if you're interested.

PPS. Did you know the word "gullible" isn't in the dictionary? Look it up.

Morgan said
Google will return links to many websites with information that refutes both your credulous bigotry and that of PALE&IF and the cretinous Anng.

pale replies

Morgan show me where I said I agreed with the letter?

What I said was- and I made it VERY clear again since a few posts up to Tony was- we are trying and fighting to get migrant workers IN the country!

So the bigotry is yours - and straight out lies. I cant stand people and they know who they are that cant debate without carrying a school girl grudge just because they make dorks out of themselves or were proven to be incorrect on other thread.

So for anybody really interested in getting skilled workers into Australia here is our link

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

What I CAN say is that all skiiled workers for abattoirs and plant owners have had political interfearance and conditions put upon them "that no other industry has"?.

I can ALSO say personally I am VERY MUCH opposed to the immediate centerlink payments- promised to uni students BEFORE they enter Australia to do IT etc etc.

These kids are from wealthy familes YET they are SHOWN how to fill out center link payment slps 'before coming.'

Yes I am STRONGLY opposed to that! My word I am . Keep the funding for those who need it- and allow the WORKING migrants to enter and work

Perhaps you are also unaware that John Laws PROVED that migrants get medication for free that Australians are forced to pay for.

Perhaps you didnt know the main funding for Citz right comes from Saudi.
That works well if you happen to be from another country but God help you if you were to be a Australian born woman or man catching a council bus to your little job that only you cared about.

I have told you before that we actually are the only Aussies to work daily and hold a MOU with Islamic Leaders of this country.

I cant see how that makes us bigotry against migrants

Jeez PALE, just how full of crap can one organisation be?

You started the thread, word for word copypasta, with no indication of it's source or what you felt about it. In fact it looked as though you were not concerned about letter, but about it's content and it certainly appeared that you thought it was true. You even included the chain letter part that asks everyone to send it on!

You posted it, you own it, wear it.

vanilla,
thanks for the links but they don't get to the entitlements for refugees. can you please post that as well.
forgive me for not being fully concentrated right now but only minutes ago i was informed that a neighbor was speared on the forehead with a 4x1 timber by a bloke who gate crashed a private party because he hates whites ??.
BTW. are you offering that bridge for sale because you don't have the ingenuity to burn it ?

individual, I am horrified at that incident. It is certainly newsworthy. Could you please direct OLO members to the appropriate link, so that we can read all the facts of the matter?

individual,

http://www.ncca.org.au/cws/rdp/education/table_the_rights_and_entitlements_of_refugees_and_asylum_seekers_in_australia

Full protection visas get no more than any permanent resident, less than old age pensions and their visas are issued offshore.

To PALE (presumably Wendy):
It must noted that refugees are NOT the same as immigrants. Whatever you feel about your original post, it is also noted that you have not issued a retraction, apology or clarification of your position. You just started talking about migrants and singling our a particular few that you don't like. As a spokesperson for a lobby organisation, I feel that you really should clarify your position on this, preferably in a just couple of sentences (most posts are TL;DR).

Seems pretty evident that the department of immigration and citizenship has pointed out that refugees don't get more pay than pensioners, individual.

P.S. Romany, I'd be interested in reading those China articles as well - I'm headed that way soon.

Bugsy: << You posted it, you own it, wear it. >>

Precisely.

And I'm sure it helps the animals - not.

Although I would agree the email is misleading its overall direction that refugee get more then pensions who have put there life into this country is correct.

At first glance the refugee gets less then the pensioner but if you look a bit deeper at the cost these refugee bring with them

• educating not only them but also the children
• social help including learning the language
• health care (most would almost never have seen a doctor or dentist)
• Once they are in the door they can get the brothers/ sister cousins……. 3rd cousins half brothers dog and the rest of them in the door due to the Australian governments policy of keeping families together. So once one refugee is in the door the hordes are not far behind and these ones are not classed as refugge’s
• Social cost which cannot be measured! These including driving up the cost of housing (ring any bells people?) Trying to blow up trains in Melbourne (I wonder how many millions this ones costing the aussie tax payer but it could have been worse if they were successful)

And these are just costs that I can think of off the top of my head.

Bob who fought on the Kokoda track and Margret who’s husband was killed on HMAS Sydney deserver every last cent of the money the government gives them and some more.

Mohammed the angry refugee who came to Australia after trying to over throw the government of his home country and install a Caliphate and still currently plots and sends money too supporters back there in the long run gets more then Bob and Margret.

Is this fair?

Refugees are precisely that for a reason ET. Access to torture and trauma counselling is also part of their support. I wonder why that is?

What about Wani and her children, the real refugees who are granted protection visas because her husband was tortured to death and they had to flee without any possessions, to a camp on the border of a neighbouring country? Then she had to wait 2 years for a protection visa and when she gets here, gets pilloried by some of the well established and comfortable citizens of her host country that granted her protection and are complaining that she gets access to language training and education for her kids? The same access afforded to Bob and Margaret from their birth.

Is this fair?

Or would you prefer that refugees don't learn English and their children left uneducated? I'm betting you would just prefer them to be left in the camp. How compassionate and fair.

Or would you prefer that refugees don't learn English and their children left uneducated? I'm betting you would just prefer them to be left in the camp. How compassionate and fair.
Bugsy,
thanks for the link but we still haven't got any evidence that the original claims are not true.
I don't believe for a moment that anyone would not want to support someone in Wani's position. you chose the the word compassion & that's exactly what's needed. Bob & Margaret on the other hand should not have to rely on compassion. theirs is called an entitlement which they've earnt. As someone born & raised in this country B & M have already contributed towards their pension but this fact is apparently not taken into account & that's where the anomaly which many see as unfair, is. it is tough to when you want to treat people equally but at the same time there's no equality in contribution. Again, we can't expect a genuine refugee to contribute when they arrive with nothing. I think the question we must all ask ourselves is what makes a refugee as deserving as a citizen or indeed should we make any comparison at all ? If our society has the financial ability to accommodate refugees then surely it can accommodate it's pensioners accordingly.
Gynx,
My neighbor is concussed & has problems with one eye. no other info at this stage.

Individual" "thanks for the links but they don't get to the entitlements for refugees. can you please post that as well."
They don't get any. Social security in this country is based on residence. When refugees are granted residency, they get the same benefits as other people.

Individual: "thanks for the link but we still haven't got any evidence that the original claims are not true."

Well, that's not exactly true is it? You have got evidence, but the problem is that you don't believe that evidence. You *know* it is untrue. You believe, as I understand it, that the government is making secret payments to the refugees. I guess Centrelink must be involved too. There'd be tens of thousands of people in on this. And all to cover it up so that YOU don't find out.

But you have found them out.

YOU know the truth, individual.

Only you.

PS. I have a Kenyan friend who'd like to put $2,000,000 in your bank account for safe keeping.

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming,
Generally I know that always there is the BETTER solution and always I press for the BEST.
I am not conservative to fight for what we have but I am progressive and I fight for improvements, for what we should have.
I know, for conservatives I am a trouble maker but in really I am a person who try for a better future, for a better world.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

I just can not believe PALE has not taken ownership of this thread.
But if you look you will surely question the post they left here medicine free?
Yes would we rather they go without?

Can any of us think individual cares about the truth? falling for a racist con job then defending it?
East Times your post was crafted much like the ww2 great teller of lies play on our patriotism.
How can todays refugees be so very different than ww2 refugees?
An e mail racist in nature has been given new life and some defend it?
How PALE can you have so much concern for animals and so little for humans?

Belly: "falling for a racist con job then defending it?"

I know. The thing I find most funny but also most sad about this thread is that some of the people defending the ad honestly don't appear to realise that they've been conned. They're thinking, "Ok, maybe the details aren't right, but the spirit of the thing is true."

Some people cannot think for themselves when they read something that snaps perfectly into their own construction of self-pity and prejudice. Most of the time on OLO people search for proofs to back up their biases — here, we have people spouting forth bias in the face of proofs.

In the end, as I said earlier, there really is a sucker born every minute. It is embarrassing to get caught out, but fighting you way through that embarrassment by insisting a con job isn't a con job or insisting you never believed in the first place is not a good way to handle it. Better to fess up and and learn something, I reckon.

Sounds like PALE has been caught out just like TRTL with his/her absurd claims about some Christian groups.

runner - you claimed last time, that I should be embarrassed because I was proven wrong about those fringe Christian groups, like Mercy Ministries.

Actually, I've yet to be proven wrong. You just keep saying I have, without proof.

Seems to me, you're the one who is a fine example of pressing on in the face of proof that has proves you completely wrong.

Post the evidence to the contrary, that Mercy Ministries aren't the shady organisation that has been written about in the Sydney Morning Herald, or confess you just don't want to believe it and retract that last comment.

I've yet to be proven wrong there runner, and until you provide something to substantiate your claim, your posts will continue to appear as petulant whinging.

I'm happy to continue debating those Christian groups. They're nutcases, and I've at least provided links to news articles that show it.

Where's your proof huh runner? Why should I believe you're any different to those here, who are determined to ignore evidence?

TurnRightThenLeft,

It is good that you have gone from comparing these groups from being equivalent to Jihadist to shady groups and nutcases. Good to see your tone changing.You however now put the onus on me to prove something that you made accusations about that were clearly misleading and untrue. You made the original accusations and have been found to be ignorant or lying. Don't then try and put the onus on me to prove you wrong. You have not been able to back up your claims at all. Maybe you should think a little bit harder before bad mouthing groups you know nothing about.

runner - I put forward a news article, pointing out these groups were damaging young people.

That had claims from women who said their benefits were taken away, and the group used cult-like social exclusion tactics.

I was asking christians, what they thought of these practices.

If you wish to refute them, then fine. News articles aren't always accurate, though 99 times out of a hundred they're more accurate than the protestations of people who have axes to grind, who don't like what's in the article.

I can accept the article may not be accurate - if I had reason to.

My tone has not changed in the least.

You keep saying I've been "caught out".

This, I'm afraid, is what's known as "crap" because you've never provided any reasons.

The onus is most certainly on you. You're claiming that you have more credibility than this news articles, and by default, the claims of the women within that article.

I say, if you're going to make that claim, provide some backing.

The onus is most certainly on you, if you have the arrogance to claim I've been 'caught out' then you need to back that up, or admit you're talking hot air. I have no idea where I've been 'caught out' because you've never put forward anything other than petulant sniping comments, such as the one above.

Runner: "Sounds like PALE has been caught out just like TRTL with his/her absurd claims about some Christian groups."

Except not. The circular email that begat this thread was a known hoax of several years standing. It's a lie. It was written in order to fool people — the point is to find bigots, tell them what they want to hear, then watch them react.

TRTL, in the other thread, linked to real cases. You didn't deny the veracity of those cases.

I thought you made some good points about the cases TRTL cited, runner. I don't agree that the Mercy Ministries do anyone much good, but you're right in saying the girls who came to them were already in deep psychological need.

As for Catch the Fire, you said they were being metaphorical. If that is the case, then I care as much as I would if I heard a Muslim calling for the metaphorical destruction of a Cathedral. That is, not all all — as long as it was clearly not an actual call to arms.

Meanwhile, you agreed with TRTL the God Hates Fags bunch are nutters.

So your argument with TRTL is all about interpretation of real events. He didn't get sucked in to a hoax, like PALE and individual.

Ergo, your analogy does not stand.

The end.

"Gynx,
My neighbor is concussed & has problems with one eye. no other info at this stage."
Posted by individual, Sunday, 13 April 2008 9:15:31 PM

Thanks yndyvydual. Anything goes nowadays doesn't it? Here's a bloke speared in the head by a piece of timber by a bloke who gatecrashed a private party and who hates whites........., and it doesn't rate even a mention in the press.

and it doesn't rate even a mention in the press.
Ginx,
you've got it in one. That is exactly the point I'm trying to get through to those who try to ridicule others' who don't let bureaucrats pull the wool over their eyes. Hardly an incident gets reported from remote communities & that's why I'm just a little wary of statements & the inevitable denial by those with the wool over their eyes.
I can neither confirm nor deny the original claims re refugee support in this country. I simply want to know the facts. Vanilla is convinced I'm all about only seeing what I want to see. Well, I'm convinced that Vanilla is hell bent on believing everything he/she reads in some departmental statement which may or may not be a denial. The reason why I'm inclined to believe the claims is purely a gut feeling borne of ample experience with official coverups & corruption

Individual, can I clarify your position?

You've looked at the links detailing the difference between Newstart and the Age Pension. Do you think Centrelink is lying about this payment, or do you think the government is making secret payments to refugees?

If you think Centrelink is lying, do you think it pays more Newstart allowance to people who were assessed as refugees?

Whether it's Centrelink or secret payments, how far does this conspiracy go? Do you think the prime minister knows?

I assume think it's coincidence that identical emails circulated around Canada and the US? This is the Canadian government's refutation of the same hoax. http://www.cic.gc.ca/ENGLISH/department/media/facts/aid.asp

As you would have learnt from the Snopes links, it's not only the Australian, Canadian and United States government who have pointed out the email is false, it's also the media.

Given that you think they are all lying, do you think that they are colluding with each other?

Basically, you need to convince a journalist. This is an international conspiracy — certainly the biggest one I've ever heard of. If you believe it, alert the media.

Unless... they're in on it too.

"Well, I'm convinced that Vanilla is hell bent on believing everything he/she reads in some departmental statement which may or may not be a denial."

Why? I think I bring a healthy scepticism to everything I hear — I look at the evidence as decide for myself. In this case, I checked the payments myself, read the various refutations — hell, you can tell from the language of the email that it's a hoax. It wasn't a hard one to spot.

Belly said “East Times your post was crafted much like the ww2 great teller of lies play on our patriotism.” Are you calling me a liar? If I have said anything that is incorrect I will be happy for you to correct me. Otherwise your silence on my questioning of you will be testimony to your travesty.

Bugsy anybody in a 3rd world country can pull off the “I’m a refugee let me in” line. All you need to do is make up ANY story up about being persecuted (if you are no good at making up stories there are plenty of left wing QC who will do it for you) which will get all the do gooders buying you first class tickets to Australia and rolling out the red carpet for you. Look at Ayaan Hirsi Ali for example.

We should be giving out more temporary protection visa and less citizenship.

Refugee are not interested in Australia they are only interested in farthing there own cause and that of there home nation at our expense.

We should be more proactive in the international community instead of giving out bandaid solutions such as taking in refugee’s as citizens

I can see you know a lot of refugees ET. Who is Mohammed the angry refugee?

So you think we should be more "proactive in the international community"? What would that entail exactly?

How would you deal with situations like Eritrea, where the government refuses to allow many Christian denominations to worship freely? Send in the SAS? Threaten to cut off diplomatic relations? I personally know a Christian family whose father was tortured and incarcerated by this regime, and believe me when I say that they would like to have been left in peace there than been driven to live in a refugee camp in the Sudan before coming here. Cases are investigated by our Immigration Dept., that's why it takes so long.

Your comment that anybody in a 3rd world country can make up stories to move here shows exactly where your head is at, and it isn't where the sun shines, sunshine.

ET, Ar A thinker like individual,

Robby- Thanks for your polite comment.

Belly said

Just can not believe PALE has not taken ownership of this thread.
Pale Responds

Belly We posted One comment.?

Robert
Coming from You we appreciate your comment especially Thanks.

runner said
Sounds like PALE has been caught out just like absurd claims about some Christian groups.

Pale replies

Now what would that be Runner? That Church Leaders were the only group that didnt speak out after the 60 minutes did no less than 5 seperate segmants on the babbaric treatment of Animals?

Or that pale Said Church Leaders had a reasonsibilty to educate Christians about cruelty to Gods Creatures?

Would you mind explaining to us all why that is absurd? Do we make you feel uncomfortable with the thruth perhaps?

Here is the Presidents of RSPCA address to the National Press about Church Leaders and Animal Welfare. Dont go and kick the dog now will you.=

http://www.livexports.com/hughwirth.html

freediver,

My family are three generation farmers. We dislike the Governments lack of common sense to support RSPCA to slaughter here. As All good farmers do. Nothing more.

Antonios Symeonakis
Didnt know we had refugees From Greece- Do tell. You will only bring yourself trouble if you mix with who I suspect you are AND the people you want to help Tony. I am not your enermy but you are very Anti Aussie- in your attitude. "Even if unintended. Stay away from people forming Muslim political parties in Melbourne is my advise and OP.

Cuphandle
Well said

individual,
Your understanding is spot on.

Anng,
sadly that does apply to some, your correct.

CJ Morgan
No not hate.- 'just interested in resposes.'

Romany,
We too would 'love' to read your work info@livexports.com

Bugsy,
Happy to supply the source. Favour for a neighbiour Franchoir. Want her Email? I will ask her consent.

bugsy said
To PALE (presumably Wendy):
pale-
No my name is Gerturude Thelma and louise are here too:

My little resident rat will tell you my name bugsy. Wont you Yabbs,. There’s a dear lamb.
*I don't recall ever seeing them advocating not eating meat.*

Yabby said
The way I recall it, amongst the many posts, is that she
has admitted to being a closet veggie, wishing us farmers
would grow halal vegetables instead of meat.

Gertrude replies, Umm, interesting you are the only one to pick up that.
However opening the fast food chain was an olive leaf for the vegans and veggies because that’s a after everything else project for me TBO

Yabby said
The plan is
to open a chain of halal veggie burger restaurants and then
show people videos of what goes on inside meat works, to
boost her sales and put them off meat.

Gertrude replies
Yup

Yabby said

She has forgotten of course that the waft of my “Yabby’s
Yummy Lamb Burgers" will drift past their noses and
they will feel compelled to throw her video in the rubbish
bin :)

Gertrude Replies

Each Halal Accredited farm will be offered Halal vegetable accreditation also, including our bush tucker working with Aboriginal people. Yup I think many farmers will discover a higher return iMOP with Halal veggie farms- however meat plants will have Gas.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2006-02/26/article06.shtml
Estimated at US$2.1 trillion a year.
We have also earmarked and identified new sectors with investment potential such as the cultivation of fruits, vegetables and floriculture, ornamental fishes and aquatic paints, seaweed, biotechnology products, specialty new products such as herbs, spices and medical paints, and tuna and deep-sea fishing," Muhyiddin added.

Now don’t you go off and worry your old MLA buddies Yabbs. Leave it to the six young Ambassadors to handle with care the different projects :)
http://www.rspcavic.org/campaigns_news/campaigns_handle_with_care.htm

To be Continued

Contiuned
In the mean time we should share with these good people the Australian security involved along with live exports yabby

Phone Rings, Hello Alex is that you? - uncle Binny here
reply: No Binny ,its Mark, Alex had to run.

Bin: Well that`s no good has he got that enquiry under control yet?
AQIS: Now dont you worry about that.

Bin: Mark we need another ship load of live sheep.

AQIS: No worries Binny. Same Transport Fees for 'your Not For 'Our NFP 'Sceme'

Bin: Of Coure Mark,

AQIS Sure Binny. Whens the ship coming - We have to have the usual paper.

Bin: Of Course, I am sending it now to Livecourpe for the usual Australian Sercurity check.

AQIS: Good Work Binny - Is it the usual list of forty Mohamedas?

Bin: Thats right Mark.

AQIS: Ok Binny Nice Doing business with you as usual.

Bin: Thanks Mark There is just one more thing- We heard some people were trying to get Halal Accreditations through AQIS to export Halal Meat?

AQIS- Dont you worry about that Binny- Is there anything else I can help you with.?

Bin: Yeh, Mark Tell Alex to pick a smaller heafer next time I couldnt find the vegemite- but I found A whole lot of other stuff like guns and some old map.

AQIS: Sorry Binny you must have got the wrong order.

Bin: And Mark, We saw this picture and wanted to ask you a question.

AQIS Sure Binny,

Bin: We know this is a picture of you - But Whos The Other Bloke?

Just scroll Past The Queen Mark= We thought we could trust you and Alex:)

AQIS: binny how many more times you I have to Tell you. Its All over to kevin 07 now.
You have to send all co- Donations To ALP head office At his wifes dress maker

Bin: ok Mark- but why his wifes dress maker?

AQIS. binny because nobody would think to look there. Its a new ALP fundraiser policy- The unions want to buy up another thousand homes sites with

http://www.livexports.com/queen.html

http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html

I for one would like to understand why anyone would post like that?
Why display a complete disregard for reality and truth?
The thread like so very many has now been diverted.
But it still remains true the e mail that started it was racist hate mail.
Twisting and turning the thread[ it is often so] seems to try to take light away from the subject.
Yet individual it is claimed is spot on?
Easy times sees other things in the thread and we see conversations with non existent people?
Racism is always ugly, even when it comes from minority's and is used against majority's this happens believe me.
Racism xenophobia even is often fueled by fear and poor understanding.
Poor education fuels it too.
As an exercise it could be productive to research all of us who posted here our post history is a click away.
Some have form for unusual comments about other races.
A revisit to the links given here in this forum and reading them is worth while.
This racist hoax is a lie yet some still support it?
I again highlight the lack of concern for humans some show.

Given that you think they are all lying, do you think that they are colluding with each other?
Vanilla,
It's unreasonable & unfair to say that they're all lying. It may come as somewhat of a surprise to you that to not disclose the truth one doesn't have to lie. simply not disclosing everything does the trick.
btw you're spot-on re the colluding part. After all, a generous taxpayer funded public service super scheme is worth some collusion & sacrificing the odd whistleblower.

individual: "btw you're spot-on re the colluding part."

Cool. So I can just make stuff up, and you believe it.

The thing I've learnt from this thread is that scams keep coming because people keep falling for them. I think most people think that no one falls for the obvious fakes, but, if that's the case, then why are the obvious fakes still going strong?

This scam is only three years old, according to Snopes. And while it's not harmless, the point is simply appeal to people who value bigotry over truth. But the Nigerian Scam has been around in various guises since the 1920s — and people keep falling for it, and they keep losing money.

Why? Partly, I think it's the general Current-Affair-ification of Australia. Our critical faculties have been downgraded into a general media-manipulated paranoid mistrust of authority. People congratulate themselves for being quite canny and on-the-money. Real analytical rigour and even natural curiousity make way for easy villains and the self-pity. (The government does so much for refugees — yet nothing for me!)

The fact is governments really do make mistakes and try to cover those mistakes up — Cornelia Rau, anyone? — so as citizens we need to distinguish between the language of chicanery and the language of genuine evasion and distortion. This whole thread is a beautiful example of how we have further to go down that educational road than some of us might have otherwise thought.

PALE
You have right, I AM A TROUBLE MAKER! Because I do not believe that :
1. The oil companies would protect our ENVIRONMENT
2. The military industry and military contractors would care for the PEACE
3. The employers love more their employees from the PROFIT
4. The politician are honest when they promise VITAL changes
5. Poor and rich are not RELATED
6. The monarchy is not for the MUSEUM
7. Religious leaders are not champions in HYPOCRISY
8. Any one who can not love the ABORIGINES, migrants, refugees, Muslims could love the animals
I am simple trouble maker, ‘if you want peace prepare for war, prepare to fight for your rights, FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

Cool. So I can just make stuff up, and you believe it.
Vanilla,
In the absence of evidence I have no basis not to believe you. However, not every stuff-up is necessarily of a negative nature. For example (just being a stickler) if an ill meant move fails due to a stuff-up by the plotter then that can be of benefit to the intended target.
As I stated earlier, it's not about proving someone right or wrong, it's about integrity & reducing the obvious & sometimes not so obvious imbalance in the distribution of public funding. I say that if we can offer support to non citizens then we should have no excuse or hesitation to support citizens as well if needed. If that thinking is wrong then well, I'm at a loss.

It doesn't matter how many sites are displayed re information as to what refugees receive,it only covers part of.I would much prefer speaking to neighbours & workers who are refugees,they give a much different view than government departments.Their parents came through the family system & can't work because of health reasons believe Australia is heaven.To those that are critical of those differing with their opinions,have a discussion with some refugees it's a real eye opener.For what they receive over all in comparrison to our pensioners who have paid their dues is wrong.Just my opinion.

Did anyone see Mediawatch last night?

There it was. THE same twaddle that was printed here. MW slammed two of the print media for printing letters quoting it without checking its credibility. They tore it/them to shreds. (I believe the Minister responsible for this particular portfolio has issued a press release referring to it being crap..;I mean erroneous!)

(Indy: I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make..)

My goodness gracious isn`t the Racism subject a very hot and contraversial issue?

I have never seen so much time wasted by so many to achieve so little for so long!

Happy talking.....happy talk!.....talk about things we always knew!

Vanilla,
I just realised my blunder. I thought you meant a stuff-up. I only just clicked that you meant making stuff up.
Nevertheless, yes I would have to believe you if there was no evidence to the contrary. I just spoke with two chaps in the pub a little while ago & it was like this forum revisited. One was against the refugee argument & the other for it but we still enjoyed each others' company

Bugsy – I was using a “typical” names as I was to lazy to get the actual but now that you have brought it up I was talking about Abdul Nacer Benbrika. I am 90% sure it was this bloke or another Algerian

There was an article about your refugee friends in the paper today. I even post the link for you enjoyment to see how your endeavors have done so much for this great nation.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23543156-601,00.html

and here is another related link

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/disillusioned-militants-who-flocked-to-australia/2005/11/12/1131578274716.html

This is from an interesting blog

Centrelink bankrolls terrorist suspects!!

AUSTRALIA’S 22 terror suspects and their families receive more than $1 million a year in taxpayer-funded welfare and legal aid.
And simply because the men were locked up, their families received a social security pay rise of as much as $1700 a year. One of the jailed Melbourne men, Abdul Nacer Benbrika—leader of a radical group of Islamists—has been in Australia for 10 years and has never had a job.

Mr Benbrika was among 13 Melbourne men charged with belonging to a terrorist organisation.

Of Algerian descent, he has a Lebanese-born wife and seven children.

This is a smashing victory for tolerance; my innards are positively glowing as we speak. Why should any sovereign country be allowed put its own interests before the well-being of unemployable jihadists [deleted by moderator]?

Under Centrelink rules, she is entitled to almost $50,000 a year in welfare while her husband is in prison, awaiting trial.
Ahmed Raad, another Melbourne suspect, has a child and his wife is entitled to about $21,500 a year, as are the wives of Ezzit Raad and Abdullah Merhi.

The wife of another suspect, Hany Taha, who has three children, is entitled to up to $30,000 a year.
The fact that [deleted by moderator] such as Benbrika and his confederates are allowed to receive so much as a dime from the taxpayer, let alone being considered even remotely applicable as candidates for residency, is a calculated insult to all productive citizens of this country.

continued

"Not only is our welfare system - estimated to cost a record $91 billion this year according to treasury documents - an utter joke, our immigration policies are nothing short of a train wreck. What this amounts to is a conscious policy of reverse eugenics. The stupider and less useful to society you are, the more the government pays you to breed. And the more talented and fruitful you are, the more cash you must fork out (which could be better spent passing on your genes to a worthy cause) to facilitate morons to rear an underclass of idiots

In God’s name, what self-respecting civilisation runs such insane, suicidal policies? You would think our government, hell-bent on punishing virtue and rewarding pathology, was controlled by a Chinese fifth column (speaking of the Chinese - you will freeze in hell before they ever copy our abominable social policies), so dedicated it is to ruining whatever future this country might otherwise have enjoyed as an independent, sovereign, entity.

And the connection between the immigration of unassimilable aliens and the welfare state has never been more plain. As long as Australia remains a country with virtually unlimited voting franchise, the awful truth is that importing people with sub-average talents will lead directly to bigger government - the foreign mendicants clearly have every incentive to vote en masse for whichever electoral coalition is most dedicated to mulcting the economically productive while continuing to import large numbers of ne’er-do-wells.”

Thanks Steve Edwards.

I agree with 90% of what he posted

Ah, so what we are talking about is ISLAMIC 'refugees'. That explains a lot.

I agree that the system must be reviewed to not allow these sorts of people in, and whoever reviewed their cases should be sacked.

However, they are a small minority of the refugee population and the whole should not be tarred with the same brush. I know a few non-militant christian refugees that have been tortured and strive to be productive and actually have jobs. But we aren't talking about THOSE kind are we?

I cannot comment on anything written in a blog without supporting documentation (re the amount of money Centrelink is paying).

Only 90%? Traitor!

I think ET should either phone home or join People Against Live Exports, Intensive Farming and Refugees.

While I could probably enjoy a beer with individual, I think that any actual time in the company of ET and his ilk would be too much like work.

Fascinating to observe the snakepit elicited by the intitial hoax post, in the face of clear exposure and refutation. I suppose that's how hate propaganda works - unfortunately all too well, it seems.

Ice cream, you forgot, Julian Burnside, Ponytails, The Whitlams, Byron Bay,refugee supporting and last but not least, book reading.
We can't help ourselves.

"Under Centrelink rules, she is entitled to almost $50,000 a year in welfare while her husband is in prison, awaiting trial."

$50,000? What rot. She got $75,000 if she got a dollar.

Hey Bugsy I am sure when it comes to refugee’s the most common name of any refugee that comes to Australia would be Mohammed. Make sense now? What did you want me to do use the name Jack or Mary? Sure I would then avoid being called a racist by the vacuous but then again I would also be totally inaccurate.
Mind you I like how you do in typical fashion try and put some sort of hate spin on the fact that I used the name Mohammed but its hardly surprising.

Bugsy – Dealing with Eritrea Firstly any refugee should be resettled in a place which they have something culturally and preferably linguisticly in common with. Transporting them halfway around the world makes absoultly no sense to anybody with any grasp of basic economics. How does in go? A dollar a day feeds and sends a child to school in Africa? And how much does it cost to ship the same child to Australia and do the same thing? I heard somewhere that in cost partents $250 000 to send kids to school and feed them in Australia. If you throw in some language training and “special help” seeing that there parents probably have no real education it will be even more. Do the maths people!

I don’t see why we should be shipping theses people all the way to Australia so as to feed the ignorant ego’s of people so deluded that they think it is better to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars per child to feed and educate them hear when it could be done for a dollar a day in Africa.

Its plainly obvious that the only reason people champion having refugee here is too make it LOOK like they are doing something about a problem. The fact that they dont even put a tiny dent in the overall problem is not going to stop these apparatchik of illconceived ideas. After all if these people had any sense the idea of shipping refugee here in the first place would never have been contrived.

The only way to sort out problems in places like Eritrea is to do another Iraq style invasion. And no I am not going to debate the Iraq war with you as I have already done it with TRTL.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1180&page=0#21206

It will be politically unpopular as I am sure all the people who love paying hundreds of thousands of dollars per refugee hear will be violently against it. (There not very smart you see) But there are no easy solutions to tough problems like that of Eritrea.

Is it just me or is CJ Morgan contribution to this thread similar to that of the contribution an agitated barking flea bitten Cur has to peaceful nights sleep?

I don't think I have to put 'spin' on anything ET, your intent is quite clear by itself. Yes, I'm sure Mohammed is the most common name for the refugees coming here, and they are all very angry. Or so I read on blog somewhere.

You got one thing right, there are no easy solutions. Even a 'superpower' like the USA has problems with just one country.

How many troops do we have by comparison? And you want to invade where? I'm sure we'll be welcomed with open arms. You should be a Defence Department advisor, you'd be great (just be sure to spell "they're" correctly on the application form when discussing someone's intelligence).

Perhaps for the wrong reasons PALE got the thread going.
.
As a “CONSTITUTIONALIST” I am too aware that the Framers of the (federal) Constitution desired that all people were treated equally!
As they made clear once they are in they should have the same rights.
As such, other then specific legislation for a particular race (Subsection 51(xxvi) I view there is no constitutional powers for the commonwealth to deny “refugees” equal rights, including social security rights.
Actually, possibly a lot cheaper in the long run then locking them up at huge cost and then having to feed the medical bill once they are accepted as being actual refugees but in the mean time driven crazy in the concentration camp styled detention centres.
The Federal Government seeks more and more power but can’t even handle the Migration power in a proper manner!
I entered Australia by choice, my wife and her late husband had to flee a communist regime to do so!
Don’t blame refugees for cost incurred because of certain Federal Government policies. Blame the real culprits, the ministers allowing this to eventuate.
Refugees rather would like to be out in the workforce earning an income then to be locked at huge expenses in some barb wired concentration camp!
Ordinary refugees are in that status not as a form of entertainment but because of the suffering they endured.
The Commonwealth had every right to reject any refugee (Toy decision) but then it signed the ‘Refugee convention” and by this signed away, so to say, its right to deny refugees a fair and proper treatment.
Blaming a refugee for seeking to access the rights the Commonwealth of Australia has itself provided for them ( to enter Australia) hardly is the way to go.

Knee deep in racism as we are I think we can find a continuing thread here I have already.
While time consuming it truly is worth re reading the posts of some.
And after you can ask how can racism be so blindly excepted by so many?

I'm sure that the larger %age of refugees would rather not be refugees in the first place. To flee to another country & then have to cope with all this bureaucratic nonsense must surely take a heavy toll.
Part of the refugee problem is that outsiders who decide to go into a conflict country to prevent more people from becoming refugees are accused of illegal invasion or words to that effect. To those anti-invasion groups I say stop preventing the forces from preventing people becoming refugees. I'm sure if the forces hadn't gone into Iraq then there'd be a lot more refugees & even more victims of atrocities.. if we can't deal with refugees then help people not to become refugees.

Belly said

I for one would like to understand why anyone would post like that?
Why display a complete disregard for reality and truth?

pale replies

The discription I gave of ships entering this country involved in the cruel live trade belly is "exactly the national sercurity."

Used to be about four to six staff. Well there you go- you have now learned something about our fax national sercurity.

Tonysaid
I am simple trouble maker, ‘if you want peace prepare for war, prepare to fight for your rights, FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS

pale comments
Tony we have always fought for our rights and freedom.

Men and women who travled to the end of earth to help other countries remain that way also.

I might add if our Anzacs had not of done that then there wouldnt have been any free green Australia for people to run to.We would either be saying konishia or hi hitlter.


Anton you will never say what is it you want voted out.


Now you can deny it all you like but back in this forum you said- "That money was for us- when refering to ASTIC funds."

So I ask you the question again. Why would a Greek Migrant consider ASTIC money was 'for us-' and who are us.?



ASTIC funding was for the Aboriginal People. Simply as that.

Mr Gerrit H Schorel-Hlavka, said

I entered Australia by choice, my wife and her late husband had to flee a communist regime to do so!
pale comments

Hello Mr Gerrit So I am sure your wife and her late husband were very grateful to Australia for being here and taking them yes?

Also yourself depite that you came under different circumstances yes?

Now from past experience I recognise you as a pretty good person offering some time to advise a lady with a legal problem.- So you are or were a lawyer for memory yes? - No?

Also pls advise what type of sercurity checks you think we should do on people entering Australia both by plane and boat?

Do you agree livecorpe is good enough?

For some reason, I just don't want this thread to die.

I have one question for those who believe the government is making secret payments or whatever it is you believe. If you've looked at the links on this thread, you'll know what the government *claims* to give by way of benefits to refugees.

This is just a hypothetical question. I do understand that some people believe that the original email was not a hoax, that the federal government, the Department of Immigration and Centrelink are all lying — in collusion with the goverments of Canada and the United States — about the payments they make to refugees.

But if these organisations were actually telling the truth, and the payments made to refugees were as they claim, do you think that those payments are fair?

If you've forgotten what the government says the payments are, look at the links above. But basically Australia does not give cash payments for refugees. It gives some one-off assistance to set up a household if refugess status is accepted. At this stage, refugees are not entitled to Centrelink benefits, and generally rely on charities to help them meet their basic needs. If people are granted temporary protection visas, they get access to restricted benefits. If the refugees become permanent residents or citizens, then they get access to the same benefits as the rest of us. I already provided references for these claims, but if you can't find them let me know.

Again, I know you believe that the above is a lie and the government is engaged in a conspiracy, but do you think the system *would* be fair *if* it were true?

Hey Bugsy obviously it would not only be Australia it would be a concerted effort by all those who are willing to help. I am sure people with there minds in the right spot could easily see the merits of such a move.

Even a super power like the USA has problems huh? In comparassion to what? As far as I can tell it has been an invasion which has cost the least amount of western causalities per day in the field ever! If you look at it like that it has been a stunning success.

Bugsy a word of advice don’t go trying to pick people up on spelling mistakes it merely shows you are grasping at straws and pointing out their “speling” mistake proves that you have nothing to counter my argument.

Vanilla – As I stated in my first post the email is obviously a hoax but the gist of it that refugee will be getting more money in the long run then people who retire on the pension will is correct as I have already pointed out to you. You can argue about it all you like but a fact is a fact!

Yeah ET, spelling mistakes I can handle and usually let them pass by, but I just couldn't let a decent irony go without comment.

I wasn't only referring to Iraq, but also to Somalia. Remember that? What a great success that was eh? Stopped all those pesky refugees didn't it?

If you want to gauge success in a mission by not dying very quickly in large numbers, then I guess by all means call the occupation of Iraq it a success. Stunning would probably be a word to describe it, yes.
By most other measures.......well time will tell won't it?

What a twisted way of looking at the world, when one can say "well our boys aren't dying at a very fast rate, what a success!"

Easytimes: "As I stated in my first post the email is obviously a hoax but the gist of it that refugee will be getting more money in the long run then people who retire on the pension will is correct as I have already pointed out to you."
Notwithstanding your unfortunate sentence structure, your facts, in that first email, were incorrect.

"educating not only them but also the children"

Refugees are entitled to 510 hours of free English language instruction. However, the government no longer pays teachers to give this instruction. The teachers are volunteers.

Children with refugee status do not receive extra funds from the Dept of Education.

"health care"

Again, refugees who are permanent residents have the same access to Medicare as other residents. If you have evidence they cost the system more, please post it.

"Once they are in the door they can get the brothers/ sister cousins……. 3rd cousins half brothers dog..."

The dog! What a wit you are! TPV holders are ineligible for resettlement on family reunification grounds — they cannot even sponsor their own children. When refugees become permanent residents, they can "propose" new entrants to the country. These people must then meet the requirements of either refugees or migrants. Many refugees have been separated from their immediate family when they were forced to become refugees.

"Social cost which cannot be measured!"

That is true. Refugees contribute in untold ways. Generally, they are brave people who have come from war-torn countries, and bring dignity and bravery and — above all — gratitude to their citizenship that native-born Australians are often too complacent to fully inhabit.

"These including driving up the cost of housing"

Fairly obviously, it's not refugees who are driving up the price of housing. For a start, they usually rent, and besides, they're too small a percentage of the Australian population to affect statistics.

"Trying to blow up trains in Melbourne (I wonder how many millions this ones costing the aussie tax payer but it could have been worse if they were successful)"

Who are these people? The only terrorist trial in Melbourne that relates to train attacks does not involve refugees — the accused are all migrants.

In sum, given that refugees have access to no more benefits than people who are born here, refugees cost the taxpayer less than native-born Australian.

For some reason, you're not being honest. You are afraid of refugees — isn't that true? Afraid of how you think they will change the fabric of this nation that I'm sure you love.

I agree with your suggestion that we should look at the countries that create refugees and be a part of the international solutions to the problems these people face.

Well Bugs we knocked over Iraq in a few days and have lost only a few thousand in more then five years! Sure it’s a few thousand to many but hey it for a good cause and it will better the entire world in the long run!(In the long run and the big picture are 2 concepts that seem to elude people with your line of thought) Yeah I would call that a success in relative terms even though we have nothing to compare it to.

Vanilla 5 stars for effort! You don’t think I didn’t notice that you tried to move the goal post a few times. You moved from refugee to temp protection to citizens then back again all in the name of trying to prove me wrong. As I said 5 stars for trying but ultimately you still failed.

Lets make something clear my idea of a refugee is somebody who has come to Australia and asked the government for citizenship and have received it. I would also include their children or anybody they marry into Australia. As the link below says there is a big problem with people marrying a “refugee Australian” then divorcing them under Australian law (but staying married under Islamic law) then marrying another woman divorcing etc and continuing the cycle. Islamic men who live in the west are highly sought after in Muslim countries and thus can have many wives under Islam but when viewed through the Australian courts it is merely a man with 1 wife and many divorces. It boggles the mind how many doors this opens for economic regugee who can just hop right in.

http://www.ag.gov.au/agd/WWW/flcHome.nsf/Page/Letters_of_Advice_Letters_Civil_and_Religious_Divorce_Civil_and_Religious_Divorce_Part_2

Health care – Seeing that most of these people probably have never seen a doctor many would have on going niggerly problems which they would have just lived with in there home country but now since aussie is paying they will get it fixed. For example I am sure almost all would have dental problems.

Bring diseases into the nation – I know I have heard of a number of African coming to Australia then having unprotected sex with people here knowing full well that they have aids. (They have all been jailed for it)
TB is also an increasing threat
With regards to bring in the third cousins dog you are so correct when you say the TPV cant bring the dog in but full fledge “aussies” can!

Yeah I know there children don’t get extra payments but they are more likely to need extra help due to the fact that there parents can't help them.

They are contributing to the cost of housing. They live in a house that could otherwise have been rented by somebody else thus squeezing the market. They are a small group on a year by year basis but when you throw in there 3rd cousins who come not as refugee’s but as immigrants the group starts to swell quite a bit. I doubt if any of them are builders so they are straight away a big negative with regards to the building sector.

The terrorist on trial in Melbourne are either refugees sons of refugee or backdoor refugees (married in) I think one is also a “David Hicks” style Australian

EasyTimes
our taxes are wasted with one million ways, there are one million ways we can help Australian pensioners etc Australian in needs. You do not not care for taxpayers or for Australian in needs BUT YOU ARE AGAINST THE REFUGEES. I am sure you belong to a very small minority of Australians.

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming
You can not understand very simple things. I explained you many times, this was not from me but from the report from human Rights Commission of UN and I gave you the link to read the full report. I think if explained to you this simple think one million time you will continue to ask me the same think. IT WAS FROM THE REPORT FROM HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION OF UN. ASK THE THEM!

PALE,
You seem to remember me.
I was asked by the Australian Government to come to Australia, not that I was in need for it as such.
As for refugees, I view that if people come to Australia without prior permission (visa) then because of the federal government having accepted the Refugee convention provisions then it must ensure that a person claiming to be a refugee is a refugee, by assessing them in a proper and humane manner.
.
For example, the Commonwealth has constitutional powers to locate all “aliens” to a certain area and as such may utilise one of the islands for assessment purposes. However, I do not accept it to be some kind of concentration camp detention centre!
.
Say assessment must be done within 6-weeks (to avoid long-term detention) and then the government either charges the person for unlawful entry into Australia or accept the person to be a refugee. If the person is accepted to be a refugee then the person be transferred to a normal area where they can from then on freely move about with all rights as any other person has.
If the person is held not to be a refugee then the commonwealth must charge the person and place the matter before a State Court for adjudication. The Court then can either allow more time for assessment, under such provisions as the Court may deem appropriate or the court may order the deportation of the person.
.
By this, the Immigration Department has no roll in locking up people or deporting them as then the Courts will make those decisions in a judicial manner.
This would make it all a lot cheaper, and avoid the disastrous conduct now inflicted upon refugees.
.
More over a habeas corpus application should be given the moment a person is detained so the person can fill in his/her details and seek a Court to make a judicial decision, anfd this then can avoid people entitled to be in Australia to suffer as Vivian Alvarez Solon, Cornelia Rau and other did!

Come this thread is not a lot different than any other.
PALE addresses only the point they want to and ignores questions they can not answer.
We find the thread a fenceless paddock and wander from subject to subject without regard for do not divert threads .
Racism is mixed with fear and anti this and that, to think! a racist lie! a trash e mail! started it.
We fall over one another to get involved but what part of the thread are we to follow?

To All:
This thread was started using a message that has been circulating the Internet for quite some time! I believe that the issue posed was (whether true or not?).....were Refugees in Australia getting a better deal than other citizens?

We can rabbit on forever whether this is a legitimate statement/ question or not, but in the end we have to accept that regardless of the rights and the wrongs, there are some citizens in this country who do NOT want Refugees. Migrants or the like! At the same time we have to face reality in the fact that Refugees, Migrants etc will themselves never refute the idea of their presence here as commonsense indicates that it would be counter-productive to their individual situations!

In a nutshell, ....some people are Refugees! ....some people are Migrants!....and some people don`t want ANY of them, ....so why continue a needless argument?.....after all the whole issue is up to the individual and his or her own thoughts and conscience!

“Vanilla 5 stars for effort!”
I wish I could say the same for you!

“You moved from refugee to temp protection to citizens then back again…”
Obviously, a refugee is a TPV holder before they become a refugee. The rights they hold with a TPV are part of the rights they hold as a refugee. Once granted either permanant residence or citizenship, they have the same rights as other Australians, and you argument begins to collapse. However, if you want to look at the rights refugees have AFTER they’ve been granted citizenship, that’s fine with me.

“ I would also include their children or anybody they marry into Australia.”
That definition of refugee incorrect. You could marry a refugee. Would that make you one?

“ As the link below says there is a big problem with people marrying a “refugee Australian” then divorcing them under Australian law…”
No it does not. (Unless you’ve posted the wrong link?) It says that it is possible some MIGRANTS (not refugees in paticular) may manipulate the system to get people in to the country. It’s a legal loophole, and I agree it needs to be fixed. The Family Law Council adds that “it is not equipped to investigate the extent of immigration or social security fraud resulting from serial sponsorship of new partners or abuse of the divorce provisions of the Family Law Act, it merely draws these possible problems to your attention.“

“Seeing that most of these people probably have never seen a doctor many would have on going niggerly problems which they would have just lived…”
As I said, please link to your proof. I’m afraid you don’t count as a reputable source.

TBC...

I think that poor old ET has "on going niggerly problems".

What a classic Freudian slip!

".....after all the whole issue is up to the individual and his or her own thoughts and conscience!"
Posted by Cuphandle, Thursday, 17 April 2008 10:15:39 AM

You know Cuphandle, this is the second time on this thread that you have been critical of the style of posting.
You have started your own thread on the topic.

Your above statement is absolutely correct! It IS up to the individual. Nothing is perfect. OLO isn't perfect. Its posters aren't perfect ('cept me), threads DO meander. Perhaps it's frustrating.

I don't like the views of many here;-I don't like them disagreeing with my views,-BUT, it IS the nature of the beast. It is.

ALL threads eventually peter out, some sooner than others.

It's the way it is Cuphandle. It's the way it is.

The issues ARE up to the individual and his/her thoughts and conscience.

Hi Ginx!
I simply wanted to illustrate that this thread, like a lot of others, has degenerated into a churlish and petty exchange of insults between opposing schools of thought!

At this time there have been 108 posts, with very little being proved or acheived one way or the other.

Surely our world has more pressing and demanding priorities for people to exercise their brains by contributing their opinions to... or are we more inclined to the petty implications of Nichole Kidman`s morning sickness or similar mind-bending occurrences?

The nature of the beast is rather peculiar, especially if the beast is cornered!

The thing is Cups,-even though you can see it, and I can see it because we's perfick, they CAN'T see it because they THINK they are perfick as well.

Most opinions on OLO are rubbish;-except for me and thee....

.............an' I'm not sure about thee!!

Come Cuphandle you have clashed with some in threads too.
Are you saying we should duck away from saying what we think?
Ginx I find your two posts speak for me.
To stay silent is not to defend free speech, the thread did indeed start from a racist e mail it has found support and some refuse to read the evidence that it is a lie.
This new way you point to in your thread Cuphandle should not be via ignoring things that may start verbal tennis between us .
Life is indeed the way it is nothing will change that.

cont...

“a number of African coming to Australia then having unprotected sex with people here knowing full well that they have aids.”
Well, that certainly would have made the papers! I googled, but couldn’t find the link. Could you please state your source — one that establishes the African in question was a refugee, mind you — not just a migrant.

“TB is also an increasing threat”
TB is NOT an increasing threat. It has declined markedly since the 50s and has been stable since 1991. Some refugees do have TB, however, with treatment, the recovery rate is 100%.

“They are contributing to the cost of housing…”
Is this your honest argument for how refugees are driving up the cost of housing? Because they rent houses? Sorry, but this is clearly ridiculous.

“The terrorist on trial in Melbourne are either refugees sons of refugee or backdoor refugees (married in) ...”
I’m not sure what you’re on about here. It’s well documented that NONE of the men on trial — Abdul Nacer Benbrika, Aimen Joud, Ahmed Raad, Fadal Sayadi, Hany Taha, Izzydeen Atik, Shane Kent, Abdullah Merhi, Bassam Raad, Majed Raad, Shoue Hammoud, Amer Haddara and Ezzit Raad — are refugees.

However, if you have extra information about any of the suspects, or if you believe the newspapers have got it wrong, then post it, or take it to the police.

Cuphandle: “...there are some citizens in this country who do NOT want Refugees. Migrants or the like!”

Exactly. But why can’t these citizens be honest about it? The original hoax email is easily disproved, but other posters are either making up facts, failing to check facts properly, or actually lying. All because they don’t have the guts to say “I don’t like refugees.”

“Surely our world has more pressing and demanding priorities…”

Refugee issues are crucial. Australia takes very few refugees compared to the rest of the world — per capita. We increasingly need to redefine our position as refugees (particularly environmental refugees) increase. I believe we should do that based on truth and facts rather than fear and lies.

Thanks Ginx!:
I am still chuckling about your response!....Thank goodness some people have some sort of sense of humour in this crazy world of ours!

Life sure is "like a box of Choklits,....you never know what you will get next!"

Mr Gerrit said

However, I do not accept it to be some kind of concentration camp detention centre!

pale replies
Hello Mr Gerrit- Your absolutly correct.

Mr Gerrit said
Say assessment ...

Mr Gerrit your a intelligent man and you know in a perfect world that would be the altimate but thats its never going to happen.

You would be very aware that many of these people come without papers- and those who do produce something must be checked out.

You would also be aware, the paper work is often almost not available, it takes ages, and forever to get a reply.
We can not blame, the Australian authority, if they write and get no reply. - or it takes months and even years.

You 'know' many of the delays are not from here but overseas. (Mind You I am NOT praising the disfuntional system of the Government stuff ups here either!)

Mr Gerrit

If the person is accepted to be a refugee then the person be transferred to a normal area
pale

Absolutlty and with ongoing 'support to settle in-' not just left to fend for themselves!

Mr Gerrit said
By this, the Immigration Department has no roll in locking up
pale

Umm, by this you would need a pannel and when that occurs you are inviting corruption because wherever such power travels so will the latter.( perhaps a public system likea jury with legal advise) dont know a big ask.
Mr Gerrit-

More over a habeas corpus application should be given the moment a person is detained so the person can fill in his/her details and seek a Court to make a judicial decision

[pale)
Judges are people and nobody can make a judgement without some form written docs to support the applicant.

That would be highly unfair on the applicant and the judge

Perhaps put to the UN to do a MOU with willing countries to eastablish a data base along with co-operation in the interests of human welfare- which could bring it under UN - However not with the UN taking control .

Congrats all on the most bizarre thread ever.

Might I suggest that in future when a post is so thoroughly invalidated in the first flush as this one was; that it be ignored, as was Jolandas latest?

Surely you guys would be better employed prosecuting your Merde War de DavidBoaz? (WMD?)

Not bad, not bad at all! Plumpyset, two threads, one frown.

Plumpyset has spoken;.............an'-,while youse about it concentrate on moodywhoredebozo.(WTF?)
_______________________________

(Cheers Cuphandle; as my sister would so succinctly put it: yergorralaff!)

Vanilla you are right I don’t deserve 5 stars for effort because I do this effortlessly and with great ease.

““I would also include their children or anybody they marry into Australia.”
That definition of refugee incorrect. You could marry a refugee. Would that make you one?” Seeing that most refugee are challenged not only by the language but also culturally they would in almost all cases marry somebody of a similar back ground or if you like “double your trouble” and you are right there partner would not be considered a refugee nor would there partners brothers and sister, mother and father, cousins……. Talk about a big hole in our immigration policy!

How much on refugee health problems do you want?

http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/news/2006/20060308_00.html

http://www.health.vic.gov.au/healthstatus/publications/refugee2.htm

Below is one link about hiv to one case which I found with a quick search I am sure you could find more as I have heard of more.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/man-who-infected-women-with-hiv-jailed/2005/12/01/1133311155712.html

“Is this your honest argument for how refugees are driving up the cost of housing? Because they rent houses? Sorry, but this is clearly ridiculous.” Are you a totally ignorant vanilla? Do the maths we take in about 15000 per year 150 000 for a decade (not including back door refugee’s so you can AT LEAST double that figure) most of them are going to be living in Sydney or Melbourne. 300 000 people need a lot of houses and seeing that none of them probably have any sorting of building qualifications they are a huge burden on the housing market and thus drive up rents and the cost of buying a house.

The terriosts in Melbourne are refugee, married a refugee or sons of refugees! How else are they going to get in? On skilled working visas? I doubt it

“However, if you have extra information about any of the suspects, or if you believe the newspapers have got it wrong, then post it, or take it to the police.” I would be interested to see you article about how all the Melbourne

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/the-melbourne-suspects/2005/11/11/1131578232148.html

There is the list and just about all of them have “Lebanese parents”. Remember all those refugee who came here from Lebanon? We are still paying for them today and will do for many decades to come! But it could have been worse average aussies who just wanted to go to the footy could have paided with their lives!

Here is an interview with your friend vanilla before his arrest.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2005/s1430601.htm

Did I mention the fact that these people also send back money to “freedom fighters” in there home countries thus aggravating the problems even more? The tamil tigers are well known for it and I am sure all other groups do it as well thus causing more blood shed more pain and more misery. But hey look on the bright side vanilla that means there will be more refugee for you and that can only be a good think right?

I could go on pointing out your short comings but I am not the sort of person who likes to dig the boot in.

PALE
I am well aware that there is no perfect world but at least we can attempt to try to make it better then what it is now.

As for Habeas corpus, if we introduced this as a system whenever any person is detained, then if a person is wrongly detained they have an opportunity to just fill in their personal details and then they must be presented before a Court. It means that if you, I or for that anyone else was wrongly detailed we could immediately get a hearing before a Court, rather then being locked away and perhaps having to wait years before we can get to a lawyer to proclaim we are not unlawfully in Australia.

Once you locked up in a detention centre it is extremely difficult to get before a court to pursue your release, and so a compulsory to provide a Hebeas corpus application to be provided means that if you desire to pursue this then at least it can avoid a lot of harm.

As for refuges who enter Australia without paperwork, I would take it that the Courts be competent enough to deal with that. If the Court deems more time is needed to appropriately investigate matters then it can order so. However, we should never permit detention without specific orders of a court to order so and for the time period provided for in an order.
.
People who oppose refugees to enter the country may perhaps welcome this kind of regime as having politicians involved smells to corruption far too often.
.
Also, if refugees are aware that they are subject to a judicial process and not merely pending a public servants decision, then more then likely they will not be so desperate in detention because they know that the Immigration Department then must justify their detention!
.
This kind system would have avoided Vivian Alvarez Solon having been wrongly detained/deported and also Cornelia Rau and others being wrongly detained, etc.
.
We need to come together in working out a system that provides for all the best solution!

EasyTimes,

The problem I have is that you seem to define the word “refugee” not in a legal sense but in an emotive sense. And you’re using a definition that’s peculiar to you rather than one Australia generally uses. I really don’t understand the paragraph which ends, “Talk about a big hole in our immigration policy!”

Re refugee health, thank you. They’re excellent links and you’re right — refugees do seem to have health problems when they enter the country.

Now, in order to prove your initial point, all you need to do is measure the healthcare costs of the average refugee against the healthcare costs of the average Australia. To do this, you’ll need to factor in those diseases Westerners are more prone to. You may find that one you remove people from developing countries and thus from the threat of communicable diseases, they remain less likely to succomb to the heart disease and cancer that the average overweight Westerner dies of. I don’t know, but I congratulate you on getting closer to proving at least one of your points.

Re AIDS: “Below is one link about hiv to one case which I found with a quick search I am sure you could find more as I have heard of more.”
Sorry, I couldn’t find more — I could only find this one. But I did find several accounts of Australian-born people who have spread HIV.

“ we take in about 15000 per year”
No we don’t.

“150 000 for a decade”
No it’s not.

“(not including back door refugee’s so you can AT LEAST double that figure)”
No we can’t.

It’s pointless having this discussion when you’re just making stuff up. You keep saying “do the maths people!” and yet appear to not have a great grasp on numbers. Over the last 10 years, the humanitarian program has increased from 10 000 to 13 000 places annually. It accounts for 8.8% of the annual immigration intake. Even at the peak of the “boat people,” “back door refugees” numbered in their hundreds and were often deported.

cont...

“Here is an interview with your friend vanilla before his arrest.”
He’s not my friend. If those men were really planning to do what the cops reckon they were planning, then I think them despicable. You are falling in to the classic trap of believing that just because I’m arguing for honesty that means I’m some kind of apologist for cant. (Just as other posters think that if you believe in free speech it really means you’re love Islam. I am very democratic in my dislike of all religions — I just defend their right to bore us all talking about god.)

You are pretending these (alleged) terrorists are refugees not because you have any particular attitude to the terrorists but because you dislike refugees and want to taint them with the terrorist brush. In fact, most refugees are fleeing from the very same regimes that terrorists often seek to defend.

“Are you a totally ignorant vanilla?” “I could go on pointing out your short comings...”
Your nastiness is noted. In another post, you say Bugsy is perhaps picking on your spelling mistakes because he cannot attack your arguments. Similarly, you seem to ramp up the personal insults the shakier your facts gets. I think you really believe you’re right, and you’re obviously not one to look too closely at figures that don’t back up your prejudices. And while your insults do, as intended, hurt, I can live with them. But I think you could strengthen your argument if you forgot about pushing barrows and just tried to investigate the truth.

Anyway, I’ve had enough of this chat, so you can fire away with the viscousness and get the last word. Enjoy.

When I said short comings I meant the short coming of your arguments not you as a person!

With the regards to the link about your friend the terrorist leader yes I was having a dig at you. I could not help myself.

“I really don’t understand the paragraph which ends, “Talk about a big hole in our immigration policy!”

With regards to this statement you make firstly the hole in our immigration policy is with regards to the number of backdoor refugees that come in. That being people who have no skills no education and nothing to give this country. The only reason they can get into the country is buy slipping in the backdoor by having 1. Family already hear. (Successful refugee applicants) or 2. Marrying a refugee.
These people who probably continue to make up tens of thousands of people each year are refugee all but in name.

I do stand by my statement of calling you ignorant due to the fact that you have provided no reasons at all as to why we should continue a program which for all practical purposes achieves nothing. All it does is make people with almost no grasp of politics and social problems feel warm and fuzzy because in there ignorants they think they are making a difference when in all practical purposes they are merely making a drop in the ocean or aggravating the problem. Not including the cost it has to Australia both economically and socially. You can not be taken seriously if all you do is tread water. Make a case for yourself instead of spending all your time trying to find holes in mine

Vanilla you are all heart and no brains! I hope you don’t live life like that as there will be people left right and centre taking advantage of you just like there are hundreds of millions queuing up to take advantage of nations like Australia with there all heart and no brains policies.

“I think you really believe you’re right, and you’re obviously not one to look too closely at figures that don’t back up your prejudices.”

I know I am right as the void of information coming from you in defending of your position is testimony to that.

“your prejudices” I knew in the end you would have to resort to that vanilla but I am surprised it took so long. As always when faced with harsh reality go for a tired warn out old cliché. The sheik taj din al hilaley defense really is a desperate last grasp from someone who cant do any better. This is the year 2008 branding people with cliché does not work anymore vanilla. Facts are what is need.

Here is one last link for you to think about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

EASY TIMES do you understand your words are here on display?
That they speak for you forever? the thread was a racist lie but your constant posting tells more about you than I think you wanted to.
Again and again the slant in your views lets us see why you defend a lie.
Do not think for one second some of us are not concerned about some migrants some refugees but this thread is nothing less than a lie.
Crafted to feed of that fear.
I am reminded of the story's about refos, the post we migrants , who had the dirty jobs we did not want but now?
The grand children of these folk sometimes are among those who would close this country's doors to those we can help today.

Hello Mr. Gerrit
Sorry for the delay in responding.

We need to come together in working out a system that provides for all the best solution!= Yes we do!

Don’t know what I can do .I am having enough trouble getting skilled workers! Into the country let alone people without papers.
Have a look at this=

Abattoir operators reject skilled labor agreement
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/wa/content/2006/s1930247.htm
By Skye Shannon
Tuesday, 22/05/2007
There've been further developments on a deal that was struck last week between state and federal governments to import overseas skilled abattoir workers.

West Australian abattoir operators say they're disgusted with the final reading of the agreement.

Collectively the industry will refuse to accept the Federal Government's final offer which has been in negotiation for 10 months.

Merv D'Arcy of the Australian Meat Industry Council says abattoirs can't afford to adhere to the proposed requirements.

"The majority of processors involved in yesterday's discussions rejected the document. Whilst we have said it's still open to anyone to use it, that's their prerogative."

"For both ministers to come out and say they're releasing this without any prior consultation before the release, it just bewilders industry."

"It's absolutely disgusting because the labor agreement's been forced upon us and yet other sectors of industry have been allowed to use the 457 visa application and still are and have enjoyed it."

"An overseas worker coming in here under this labor agreement: one, the employer has to pay his medical insurance, if he brings his family over he has to pay the cost of the family coming over, he has to pay the family's medical insurance costs, he has to pay the children's school fees, now an Australian doesn't have that benefit."
In this report: Merv D'Arcy, Australian Meat Industry Council of Western Australia.
The end.

Mr Gerrit said=
if a person is wrongly detained they have an opportunity to just fill in their personal details and then they must be presented before a Court

PALE replies
Good idea

Mr Gerrit said
However, we should never permit detention without specific orders of a court to order so and for the time period provided for in an order.

PALE Replies
Sounds fair= agreed

Mr Gerrit said

Also, if refugees are aware that they are subject to a judicial process
PALE replies
Perfect!
Perhaps we ought to form a political party = and also enforce the federal governments to import overseas skilled abattoir workers on ALL companies .
That will free up more funds for our migrant work and save some public complaining where their taxes funds goes.

I do hope PALE&IF isn't using their tax-exempt supplies to post this stuff?

Doesn't seem to have a lot to do with the mission statement...

Care to explain how this thread, which is clearly designed to incite hatred and vilification of refugees is relevant to PALE&IF's stated purpose, Wendy? Thought not....

It is a good question but Wendy if that is who posts here will not answer it.
The flood of meaningless words is for two reasons.
1 to hide the mistake in starting the thread a well worn tactic fooling few.
2 to put the verbal arm over the shoulder of yet another poster and look for new partners in the fight against almost every thing.
We even see 457 visa getting a run and the need for more workers but nothing can fog out this threads birth and it racism .
PALE lets have a thread about live exports , while I may post there I undertake not to put unionism or Labor politics in it.
I will make no race related comments about anyone and talk only about why live animal exports will always be a part of Australian farming deal?

Antiseptic

What part of telling you WE trying to BRING migrants "IN" don’t you understand.
A little secret
As a family we bring in people every week

What part of the absolute fact that we work with people from all over the world don’t you understand.

What part of the fact that we personally want the immigration Minister to allow those very same people to be involved in our program don’t you understand?

You just saw the info I posted. "I take it YOU support to keep these migrants families ‘from coming."

In short you silly person we are the only people in this country looking to mount a legal challenge in the courts and the UN Federal Government to allow these people to come "IN" and work and train and be trained etc.

That is wrong and should be fixed. As for our funding and this office it’s really none of your business - However I will tell you the project is mainly funded by my family with RSPCA QLD assistance.

No I do not have tax deductions because Peter Costello made it a law that any animal group who names and shames companies involved in the cruel trade loose it.

This was a threat to the RSPCA because they protested live animal exports prior to the last election.
Talk about freedom of speech and interfering with departments responsibilities. - "discussing."
Now I recall one time Anti Septic You wrote a claiming you loved animals – In response we offered to assistant you in a small donation to start you off in your own Animal Welfare program of your choice- be it cats dogs whatever.
The thanks we got for that was you then accused this organization of trying to bribe you?
Graham Young deleted it and warned you. You don’t seem to understand you ARE responsible for what you say on a forum.
BTW why did you call me Wendy?
We are member institution with OLO – People against Live Exports.
PAL

PALE&IF: << BTW why did you call me Wendy?
We are member institution with OLO – People against Live Exports.
PAL >>

So it's clearly the policy of this 'member institution' to post racist spam emails without attribution or apology, rather than the action of a particular racist individual displaying poor judgement.

I'm glad that's cleared up.

Belly said

PALE lets have a thread about live exports ...
Pale Replies
Umm, well providing we can mention the people who are making political donations then ok.


Belly I am not trying to be rude.

= Please think about what you said and understand 'the reason' for live animal exports is ' ONLY political'.

It is a labour State and federal Government.?

There is 'one industry 'being walked all over.

History tells us unions were a HUGE part of the reason live exports kicked off in the first place.

Sure, they saw the errors of their ways and we have tried to support them.

For a very long time we have worked with AMIUE


We have plenty of ALP buddies and of course a few enermies who are trying to go against RSPCA.

We have some libs and some Greens and a heap of others that all care about live exports.
We meet we eat drink and we talk . Nobody has 'ever said' I want to be a member and help the animals but we cant talk about the libs the greens or labour. They simply come as concerned people.

The Meat union have long rallied for live exports to be stopped.
Now they are being 'used' to stop the migrants coming in.

Now you want us to debate this without mentioning that the meat trade under this Government are the only ones having extreme demands put on them that dont exsist in other industries?


That putting us at an unfair advantage = but ok.

I dont tell you what to post and with respect you should not be trying to dicate to us either however if it makes you happy.

Open your thread belly and we will make an undertaking NOT to make personal comments about you in response to yours .

However if you take swipes at us personally as before we will respond. You know that already. Oh, I nearly forgot we wont talk about unions either.



We want skilled migrants to come in and work.
Cheers and have a good day.

PALE&IF: "Graham Young deleted it and warned you"

Nope on both counts: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=989#18420. I'd like an apology, please. I'd also prefer you stopped offering me money to make me go away.

PALE&IF: "You don’t seem to understand you ARE responsible for what you say on a forum. "

On the contrary, I am fully aware of that fact and I have tried to draw your attention to it. You are the "organisation" that makes and then endorses racist postings, after all. While you're apologising to Graham for misrepresenting him, you can work on your post withdrawing the original remarks and apologising to the rest of the OLO community for the offence caused.

Are you beginning to understand the concept of being "responsible for what you say on a forum" yet?

If this has rambled on (Cups has a point;-come back Cups all is forgiven!!),-it's because we have all assisted PALEIF to bob and weave and put a good distance between themselves and their daft and erroneous original post.

I really cracked up at this:-

"I am privy with further information as to certain funds that were in need of a closer eye." (Gertie/Thel/Lou).

Fair go;- what do you expect with this kind of eloquence?

PALEIF: DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR ERROR IN PUTTING YOUR ORIGINAL POST UP? DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS DIRGE WAS MANUFACTURED TO FUEL THE ANTI-REFUGEE FIRES?

Now, don't feck around gels; just answer a DIRECT coupla questions-DIRECTLY.

No guts no glory.......?

Firstly I would like to go into bat for PALE. Although I cant think of a time I have read anything of PALE’s I have agreed with (I have not read all of his/her posts) I have to say that the people here who have accused PALE of being racist are are only showing there own prejudices towards anybody who would dare to post something that is critical of a minority. If you read PALE first post on this thread you will see that he/she posted an email (obvious to most of us that it was spam but not to PALE) and merely asked peoples opinions on it! Remember the heading “Only in Australia! This is interesting what do OLO readers think” No suggestion that PALE agreed or disagreed with the email. Sure PALE looks as silly as somebody who falls for a Nigerian scam but those who branded PALE a racist before he/she had the chance to put forward his views on whether or not they agreed or disagreed with the email are just as foolish.

Also I would like to make an overall comment about how deluded some people are who have posted on this thread. Those who have branded me a racist (cliché) because they cant find any holes in my argument and because I refuse to support their do-gooder politically correct agenda are merely showing the same sort of dogmatism that Boaz_David shows when it comes to religion. Sure some ill educated dogmatic people seem to think that these refugee are some sort of gift from the gods and the more the merrier. And if anybody points out the stupidity of their line of thought that person must be some sort of demented misanthrope. The narrative you people have left on this thread shows that you are all dogmatism and no substance. The paucity of evidence for refugee and the plethora of evidence against refugee coming to Australia is testimony to that.

Belly – “EASY TIMES do you understand your words are here on display?
That they speak for you forever? the thread was a racist lie but your constant posting tells more about you than I think you wanted to.” Do you know that your words are here on display as well Belly? The only thing that your dogmatic stance proves is that you are incapable of looking out side the square and seeing the bigger picture. What I have said is all true (apart from a dig here and there and a windup or two. Cant help myself) what you have said is nothing but wishful thinking and pie in the sky mentality.

If I have said something that is incorrect Belly I am sure you would have picked me up on it already. This only leaves you and you friends in one position that being to share the stage of dogmatism with the religious fanatics and there crazy out look on the world. Like two peas in the pod!

More of the same.

I am interested ONLY in PALEIF answering what I've put to them.

(Btw: ET, I formed an opinion on you when you passed opinion on Vanilla's intellect. I don't agree with her on some feminist issues, but blind Freddy can't miss that the woman has nous. So kiddowinky, your put down reflected badly on you; not Vanilla.)

Easy Times - I can speak only for myself, but the only reason I don't respond to your drivel is that I couldn't be bothered. There's enough bigoted trolls around here anyway, and we really shouldn't feed any of you.

I occasionally respond to PALE&IF's more egregious excesses, such as in this case where the organisation's participation in promulgating a false and racist spam email has provided a soap box for bigots like Easy Times to mount and spout the same old baseless and hateful tripe.

Well done, PALE&IF. The animals have clearly benefited from this thread.

Easy Times

PALE in conjunction with RSPCA QLD thanks you for fair play also individual.

You both clearly have a deep sense of justice and would make wonder ambassadors for Animal Welfare. (Sorry to beat the Drum however it’s why we joined and my job (However you would!)

No we did not say we endorsed the letter. We didn’t know it was span we were curious about it and wondered what OLO posters would make of it.

To be really totally honest we thought it might have been something to do with the libs like they did pre elections with their scam letter.

Because we thought that were possible and couldn’t think of anything else we also wondered why now? That is why we asked what OLO readers made of it.

As we already explained it was sent by a neighbor saying= Wonder what you think of this?

So I copied that and posted it on OLO not knowing what to really make of it.

That’s the truth- end of story.

Easy times have hit the nail on the head regarding the nasty comments aimed at our organization.

At first when I saw people thought we wrote it or were anti migrants I was very upset for our organization.

However then something wonderful happened. I read the thread right through. I don’t often get time.

What I found lifted my spirit and gave me hope for the Animals.

People were emotional but few attacked us personally.

Thank you to Robby, Mr. Gerrit Robert, Foxy, and Yabby. Bugsy Vanilla, individual Cup handle rache, Steel and anybody I missed.

Antiseptic Morgan belly feed driver Easy Times was 100% spot on

Your spiteful IMOP. In the past have not enjoyed my humor as a response to discusting personal attacks.

Everybody else = Thank You all for your sense of not attacking the organization while not agreeing with the contents of spam mail.

I hope you can all be just as fair thinking for the Animals.

"They depend on it."

You can judge A nation by the way it treats its Animals Ghandi

And yet you still fail to acknowledge that you have allowed a racist slur to be published in the name of your "organisation". As it is clear that your "organisation's" main purpose is to act as a pseudo-independent "agent-provocateur" to agitate on behalf of Wendy's family meat business, surely that business can supply you with someone able to vet the outpourings that it produces? Better yet, they could integrate the operations into the business and stop all the subterfuge.
As for your "humour", I'll let you know when I see any. In the meantime, I'm still waiting for that apology.

BTW, I've not claimed you're "anti-migrant", but your original post and some of those that follow make it clear that someone in your organisation doesn't much like refugees.

Antiseptic,

You supported someone claiming pale supported FGM.

As you well know, Wendys so called family, meat business is our progect working to unite Muslim People with Farmers.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

ALL % goes back into Animal Welfare. This is working with other Animal Welfare organisations including HSI NSW and RSCA QLD.
Its to slaughter in Australia to STOP the long trips!

Futher to support of some Aboriginal Elders to bring IN migrants putting jobs back into regional areas.

Here are some words from the Human Soceity regarding this project=

Thursday, 5 January 2006

“ Humane Society International is in full support of the HKM, PALE, AFIC initiative to create a more humane life for farm animals and to improve slaughter techniques. The establishment of Humane Halal abattoirs is a giant step in the right direction. We look forward to an opportunity to work with them in the future to achieve these goals.”

Verna Simpson – Director – Humane Society International

My family have all past over (other than a sister) who is a lawyer and supports the theory of Animals slaughterd in Australia.

She has zero connection to the meat Industry. Busy running International schools and farm stays. She does advise and support our Animal Welfare projects as do many other lawyers.

You have defamed insulted the memory my fantasic parents who did so "much for migrants".

The comment that my family are racist or this organisation or myself Wendy along with claims of them being involved in the meat industry and we are racist will not be ignored.

Because your too gutless to post in your real name you seem to think you can defame.

GY has told you if our lawyers commense actions he has a duty to supply your ID.

You are not immune to defamation laws simply because you choose to be - what you are IMOP = A person who slanders others and defames them and their organisation and family- because you 'think' you can.

You remind me of the live Animal Agents that hide behind false names as well.!

Give me an email address and I'll send you my name confidentially. I won't do so on an open forum.

If you can find anything you consider defamatory in what I've said, tell your lawyers to "commense" action. I stand by my comments.

Now that's out of the way, how about that apology to the readership of OLO for the racist remarks your organisation published in the original post of this thread?

Antiseptic, said

Give me an email address and I'll send you my name confidentially. I won't do so on an open forum.
pale replies=

Info@livexports.com

Antiseptic please think before you give your details here.
It is true GY has told us he must if asked give your details, not in my view taking anyones side just informing us of facts.
Any long term poster has seen threats come of legal action quite often from this group.
The thread has not yet been addressed and free speech is worth defending but be warned some crave publicity at any cost.
It is my personal view, one I stand by no matter what cost, that such threats are thuggery.
And again my personal view, same deal, some are unaware of others rights and others feelings.
I can tell you I once took the challenge put my name and enough details in print here to find me.
NEVER DO IT some one used spite and lies childish bile, and more against me.
Some are not capable of rational debate.
You and I are often wrong but the difference is we understand it.
To not admit it is a symptom of something far more concerning.
Had I started this thread I long ago would have gone to print saying I was wrong.
I ask you not to let your pride get you into a game that may hurt you.
It surely reminds most of a school girl [very young ] fight this thread
The verbal arm over the shoulder of EASY TIMES and individual, the invitation for them to become members of the group while humorous just maybe questions was the thread a mistake or not?

Belly, thanks for the advice, but I have sent my name as I agreed to the email address given. I have no fear of PALE&IF's lawyers as I have said nothing defamatory and have caused no individual a loss. I am prepared to defend my statements, in the Courts if PALE&IF wishes to have their vilification of refugees dragged into the public arena, and to apologise if I have said anything that I cannot substantiate. It's the second time this inept group (or perhaps that should be "inept company") has threatened me on this forum and I'll not stand for it. I shall seek reimbursement of all costs when I am vindicated if they foolishly choose to pursue the matter. The threats made are smoke and mirrors, designed to intimidate the credulous.

Antiseptic,

Thank you if you sent your details however we most certainly have not received them.
We don’t even use a filter for spam email. I am not implying you did not send it but request nothing arrived here.

I thought your suggestion was a sensible one to be honest. I am sure our lawyers – or one of them would welcome to opportunity to share with you also their personal interest in our work with Muslim Leaders and Animal Welfare.
It might assist you to understand why we can not have this type of thing being stated.
You did also in days gone by accuse our organization of offering bribes.
Believe me if you were serious about opening some type of Animal Welfare group be it whatever we would still assist as much as possible. That is simply a fact and by now way a bribe. That goes for anybody else also. Mind you funds are low but there are other ways to assist and along with small funding and ongoing support it can be helpful for those really wanting to do something towards helping animals.
That aside I would prefer not to continue this online but make no mistake we will take whatever action necessary not to be defamed- Including court. That applies to everybody and I might add if anybody who posts on olo has been defamed they should hold the same position. There are laws to protect you. Of course those who do not post in their real names might have a problem to show damages etc.
I hope to receive your email contact soon. Mind you it goes without saying if it does not arrive the second time – then we must consider our position.

Have a nice day

The first time it was sent was at 5:12pm last night, to info@livexports.com. It has just been resent.

As I have told you repeatedly, i have no interest in starting yet another group for the welfare of animals when the field is already overserviced and manipulated by unscrupulous people for financial benefit.

I urge you to consider implementing my suggestion as soon as possible and to prevent the ratbag element within your group from posting and causing your group further embarrassment.

Frankly, I'd just as soon not have to bother keeping you on track.

Bellysaid

It is true GY has told us he must if asked give your details

pale comments
Belly of course its true. Do you really think that Australia could have zero laws about something as important as posting comments on a world net?
GY warned you some time back and made his posion very clear. Dont you think this man would know for goodness sake?
Good heavens Belly sometimes you still amaze me.
here you go=
http://www.reputationhawk.com/

http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html

http://www.findlaw.com.au/articles/printArticle.asp?id=9966

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UNSWLJ/2000/7.html
http://www.smartcompany.com.au/Premium-Articles/Top-Story/20080317-Defamation-law-and-the-internet.html

Bellysaid
It is my personal view, one I stand by no matter what cost, that such threats are thuggery.

palereplies
Belly you crack us up, you really do. You know in all honesty you have given us so much pleasure reading olo.

Your always coming out with this comments that put your foot right in it. You leave enough room for a truck to get it. Its almost like you are inviting us to say the bleeding ovious.
It time to grow up.
Your like a child Belly who fights for attention and wont listen to any other persons opinion without taking offense personally.

Of course its a trick and you do it for attention.




I dont loose it if somebody says something that is in opposition to the party I support. I listen.

Do you think my friends are all like soliders?" That might be in your mind a perfect world to have all your buddies lined up at the bar like soldiers but its not mine.
Bellysaid

Some are not capable of rational debate.
palereplies
You got that right!

Belly said
The verbal arm over..

palecomments
Those types of comments I would expect from a team of young bitchy school girls.
The thanks to Easy Times for his or her sense of fair play was just that- A thankyou from rspcaqld and pale from the animals to support a fair go.
Its very clear those types of qualities are much needed and of course he or shes values would be the type to make a wonderful animal welfare spokesperson.

That doesnt mean that they want to.

Cut the crap!

If TRUE defamatory stuff had shown its face on OLO, it would have been wiped almost immediately.

A site of this size would have its own lawyers, they are not fools.

So cut out the huffing and puffing; both of you.

You threw down the gauntlet PALEIF, and Anti has called it.

Stop wallying about. Your 'lawyers' will do nothing without your instructions, and such frivolous nonsense would be kicked out of Court anyway.

So go-ahead; instruct them, and waste money that could go to far more important issues for your organization.

OR;..cut the crap and move on.

Cut the crap indeed - although one might reasonably surmise that this thread has been crap from inception.

I think the last rambling diatribe from People Against Live Exports and Intensive Farming, Refugees and Rational Discourse Etc pretty well exemplifies the intellectual scope of that organisation. It's probably best to avoid questions about the psychopathology of those members who post here on behalf of this outfit.

Really, does PALE&IFR&RDE think that their online antics in this thread do anything at all to benefit the animals - or indeed their miserable organisation?

Yeah, I know that I shouldn't feed them...

Yeah CJ, I'm somewhat confused as to how with benefits the animals as well. Okay, I get that if they were clashing with supporters of live exports then perhaps they'd be justified in continuing these slanging matches, but damned if I can see how all this garbage about migrants and so forth really contributes to the cause, especially given the drawbacks in terms of image of the group.

Nevertheless, I think past discussions of this nature have shown a surprising ability to resist common sense when it comes to these matters, so you're right in that 'feeding them' as it were isn't particularly productive either.

I want to state 'again' that pale has no connection nor agrees with the email.
We posted it to ask what olo readers made of it.

The question was asked=

What do olo readers think?

We do not endorse the contents nor do we have the figures on what amounts of funds are given to migrants as per Australians.
We certainly are not racist.

Now as we asked the question by opening the thread if anybody knows where this email started it would be still interesting to know.
Its rather curious given we have just held elections. To me it makes no sense given the timing.

I did here on media watch that the email has been circulating for sometime.

I didnt hear them say where it came from however I was busy at the time and only half listening.

It was sent to us by a neighbour however she does not know where it came from either.

So if anybody does know where this spam email it came from it would be interesting to know.

Good one PALE, only 2 weeks late.

It came originally from Canada years ago, do you not even read the threads you create? Funny thing was, the original letter got it wrong then too.

Thread over (hopefully).

(Sorry Bugsy, I just wanted to reiterate what you said.)

PALE,

Questions about the provenance of the hoax email were answered from the *second* post in this thread, and many others afterwards. I think Snopes provides the most fullsome explanation: Here's the snopes report: http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/refugees.asp Bugsy collated all the official refutations here: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1667#32396 In that post, he points out that you have already asked for facts and claimed not to have received them. He suggests then that you are not reading the posts. It appeared this remained the case.

Later, I looked up the correct payments on the Centrelink website. I posted them here: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1667#32416

It literally took me less than thirty seconds to confirm that the email was a hoax, simply by googling. It took perhaps a minute to find out what the correct payments were. You did not need to do either of these things, as other posters were copying the links onto the thread for you.

Your posts on this thread have been, frankly, very strange.

A trip PALE back to your own posting history may well find posts not totally unlike this thread.
I still cringe at one that asked for locals on the Gold coast to get medical services first.
It is good practice to read every post before posting our selves, remember if we post so others read what we say we should read and understand what others say too.
The evidence about this thread was put there very early, claims made by a few posters that no evidence existed to support the e mail being wrong went on?

Belly

I assume that 'perhaps' you are refering to the project for aged care work I personally put to the Howard Government.

What I said in that- for memory - was it took them '6 years'! to decide it was a great idea.

From there was they were going to kick it off on the Gold coast because they have the highest numbers of elderly people who came here to retire.

I might ADD that wasnt even my idea- It was theirs. The adviser at the time contacted me and thanked me while suggesting I through my hat in the ring to help kick the programe off.

It was two days after my father had died so I didnt talk much to her then. She wrote me encouraging me to contiune to be invovled somehow knowing I cared about the elderly.


However I did attend three weeks later the meetings and took along with me the heads of reach out for Christ Churches and put all the forms in their hands.

The last I heard they were busy building nursing homes with a developer.

Mind you this programe was to enable elderly people to stay in their own homes with live in cares ( too the) and no more costs than what put in now by tax payers or Government.

Also belly you are continued to show us what a nasty type you are. You came off second best from calling Antje Stupid screaming she couldnt spell despite being told she was a migrant.

Your verbal abuse of good migrants giving up their time unpaid is on the record.
Not much of an add for unions. btw why WONT the unions help to bring skilled migrants in.?

Why are they sitting back doing what they were told from the top.?

Why Cant unions stand up and fight to bring these migrants in like us?


You want to talk about unions belly?

"Great". Because each time Stu asks you "why unions wont support our work to bring migrants" in - You Run!

PALE&IF&R: << I assume that 'perhaps' you are refering to the project for aged care work I personally put to the Howard Government. >>

I think Belly was talking about the various occasions on which PALE&IF has expressed sentiments virtually identical to those contained in the unattributed spam email that they plagiarised in their first post on this thread.

Prior to posting the spam email as their own opinion, PALE&IF made several claims that refugees are entitled to greater social and medical support than other Australians. All of this huffing and puffing and bluster seems to be intended to obscure the fact that PALE&IF is telling porkies.

What else is new?

PALEIF, I'm mostly staying out of this discussion but I suspect that the comment Belly was talking about was at

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=873#15112

R0bert

Morgan

I am really busy. You well know pale did not post the email as our opinion.
Thats is slander and defamation.

What pale said was- I wonder what OLO readers will make of this!

No I didnt read all the links and i didnt come back into this thread for a long time. It was not a important thread to me.

Robert I stand by the link you posted one hundred percent.( Which was as you know addressing another issue)

QLD is flooded with people coming at almost two thousand a week. Hundreds! and staying.

The fact is the elderly people are dying in the own areas where they have contributed for years.

I also stand by my earlier comments about overseas uni kids being promised PR and free health after their courses.

This is wrong and they are mostly from extremely wealthy familes.

The Government needs to change this. Its is bleeding an already over worked sytem.


Tree change people visitors and Uni kids with wealthy familes.

Bottom line the Government have made a hash out of our medical system

PALE: "What pale said was- I wonder what OLO readers will make of this!

No I didnt read all the links and i didnt come back into this thread for a long time. It was not a important thread to me."

So you wondered what OLO readers would make of a piece of spam? But you didn't actually wonder it enough to actually read any of the responses in the thread? But you did have time to post in the thread?

Curious and curiouser.

This should be the last comment on this thread because I am closing it down. It serves no purpose, and there seems to be a lot of bullying going on.

Just for the record, we would not provide anyone's details on request to a lawyer merely because someone started an action. We would, however, comply with any lawful order from a court. By posting here you indemnify us against any liability arising from anything that you publish, so it could even be us that would go to court to obtain your identity, to enforce that indemnity. But we will not voluntarily disclose details.

For my part, PALE&IF say that they didn't have an opinion as to whether the original statements were true or not, and they now say that they accept they are not true. That should be the end of the matter. Whether or not you think PALE&IF is racist is not a matter to continue to debate and it has got to the stage where this thread is just name-calling. If you want to argue with me on this point, do it offline. My email is on the site.

For future threads you might bear in mind that I do not think it appropriate to threaten to sue others for defamation in your posts. First suggest to us that a comment be deleted, and if we do not agree, then make your threats and take your legal actions against us. Threats on the forum just cheapen the thread and deter others from posting.