Vanilla “which has found that executing around 100 people a year”

That is “sampling”, not addressing the problem, when considered against the numbers involved in drug dealing.

The point which individual makes “drug couriers & pushers in those poorer countries are literally forced to do that just to survive as there simply is no other income”

May well be very relevant.

Anyone else care to speculate on the benefits of libertarian capitalism influence the culture of these societies. What I am suggesting is the sooner real economic alternatives to the drug trade will happen the sooner drugs and the diversion the provide will be less attractive or acceptable. Maybe a benefit of a free trade philosophy.

Banjo “For example. Col can you, or anyone, find stats relating to the amount of drug use in a country/society that now has very serious penalties, where they did not previously? In particular on dealers.”

That is a fair question Banjo.

I have tried and will keep trying.

The problem with the drug problem is the causes and effects are ambiguous and largely hypothetical, lots of theories and no consensus. A bit like climate change, except its been around and been studied a lot longer.

Simply put, why does one kid from a family take to drugs and the rest do not?

Or one brother turns to crime and the other becomes a compassionate charity worker, based on the same hard childhood?

Thanks for the drugwarfacts link Cevelia, not sure I would accept the linked pages statistic bare faced.

Example, Holland has a different gun control attitude, which may be a more significant influence on homicide rates than drug use.

I just love it when people tell you that you’ve lost the argument. You always know when it happens that person is flailing about in fear of looking stupid.

If you want to go back several hundred years you will find that people were burned at the stake for witchcraft. Some people thought the world was flat. Some thought that the sun revolved around the earth. To seriously suggest that decreased opium use in China over the centuries is a direct result of the communists executing people requires an incredible absence of reasoning ability. Today, drug use in China is getting worse, not better. In any case, if you want to live in China go do it. I doubt you’ll like it much

Who exactly are drug dealers killing slowly? Are you talking about the people who voluntarily go and search them out everyday looking for their fix? Clearly you don’t believe in personal responsibility so how you can hold anyone responsible for their actions is a mystery to me.

The aids epidemic in Russia was a capitalist thing was it? What absolute PAP. And the Russian mafia have been around since way before the fall of the empire. Drugs gave them their powerbase in exactly the same way the US mafia solidified its hold during prohibition.

I wasn’t suggesting that soldiers signed up to kill. What I was suggesting is that the fear of dying did not deter them. The fear of dying doesn’t deter addicts either. You only have to look at the Bali nine to see that this is the case.

Anyone who thinks that selling drugs is a crime worse than rape has no claim to being objective. That is insane. But using a fictional TV show to prove a point is so far from rational it’s on an entirely new plane of stupid.

Banjo,

I have already posted above stats for the Netherlands who have medically supervised heroin trials. They have the lowest heroin addiction in Europe. Compare this with the US where drug dealers face mandatory life sentences, yet addiction is far more widespread.

Individual, does a civilized society turn its back on people who are struggling with addiction whether it be taking legal or illicit drugs, indulging in fatty foods, taking extra risk by not exercising- or playing dangerous sport… we’d have to judge everyone on their lifestyle choices before treating them.
Celivia,
As I stated earlier, the first incident should be treated with the benefit of doubt but the 2nd, 3rd ... NO! There are plenty of insurance companies which will not offer a policy to extreme activities. I'd say taking drugs is an extreme activity. If you don't want to get into trouble stay out of trouble. Don't expect someone else to pay for your plunders. We should all be entitled to some of our tax dollar in the event of an accident. taking drugs & drinking excessively is no accident. I enjoy bush walking & I'm not allowed by law to carry a firearm to defend myself against wild pigs, so I feel I should be entitled to treatment should I require so.

Illict drug taking came from people in labs taking advantage and creating drugs which ended up on th streets.Cociane came from the amazon jungle placed into western culture and the west's noise's fell off.Say no to drugs as there is no real economic basis all it does is cost society money to pick up the pieces of what is left of people.Thank you David.

Individual,
a society should cater for all of its citizens in sickness or in health or else that society will be a dysfunctional and inferior one.
I think it is a horrific idea to leave groups of people to perish for whatever reason- they may not be able to cope with life or learn their lessons as well as others, or they may be disadvantaged. Not all people are strong enough to function well 100% of the time. We cannot judge anyone’s lifestyle choices, as we don’t know anything about them.

Expecting people to learn from their mistakes in one lesson is unrealistic. Rehab centres treat many addicts who are willing and have been trying to beat their addiction for years but they keep re-entering the programs. AA is near useless, and rehab programs don’t suit all addicts.
Countries should aim for a social and welfare network strong and humane enough to cater for all people.

If you had a road accident through your own fault and needed hospital treatment, how would you feel if you were left to die in the gutter because it was the 2nd accident you caused and you couldn’t afford to pay for medical treatment?

Or what if you were treated for a heart attack triggered by problems caused by obesity and years later you had another heart attack and were denied medical treatment because you hadn’t been able to deal with your eating problem?
I gladly see my tax go to anyone who needs help because I have no authority to judge their life style.

Col,
“Thanks for the drugwarfacts link Cevelia, not sure I would accept the linked pages statistic bare faced. ”
True, I have no proof that other things are not playing a role and the gun laws are a good point. I don't know how many killings in the US involved guns.

One thing to think about for everyone against decriminalisation of drugs is that countries with strict drug laws (e.g. Indonesia) have more problems with drugs than countries that are fairly relaxed about drugs.

ConsiderThis,

Legalise all drugs.

Cannabis, heroin, ecstasy and cocaine.

At the moment they are in the hands of the nastiest criminals on the planet.

They have all the control and profits.

Prohibiting means we only have drug abuse.

It didn't work with alcohol.

The current initiatives are no more than mopping up the problems caused by prohibition.

The real solution is legalisation.

With legalisation we can remove the money from the control of criminals and invest in drug treatment and education programs.