I really did not want to write any further on the issue of Tibet. My views have well and truly been canvassed.

However, I am most interested on a mini-poll of what the readers of On-Line think about the riots that are happening along the route of the Olympic Flame. I am calling them riots, you may call them protests, others may call them demonstrations.

Perhaps readers could address the following questions:

1. There has been much discussion about using the Olympic Games to voice protest over human rights issues in general and Tibet in particular. Should the Olympic Games be above sport entirely?

2. Is all this violence and disruption helping or hurting the cause espoused by the rioters/protesters/demonstrators (r/p/d's)?

3. How many of those involved in the r/p/d’s are well informed from primary sources and actually know what they are talking about?

4. How many of those involved in the r/p/d’s actually know what they are asking for? ‘Free Tibet’ means what exactly?

5. Which do you think is the most effective means of addressing the issue of human rights in general and Tibet in particular with the Chinese; these violent r/p/d’s or calm respectful dialogue as suggested by Prime Minister Kevin Rudd?

DialecticBlue – Graeme Mills

What concerns me FAR more than the violent protest, is the presence of what appear to be ETHNIC CHINESE MINDERS.. from the PRC surrounding the torch....... what's THAT about?

If, it turns out to be the thing the PRC was requesting (demanding?) for the Australian leg... Chinese police/military looking after security in OUR country... (a pox on that imperialist/colonialist insulting idea) then is it probably one of the worst insults that could be directed at our countries and dignity.

We are NOT Tibet... we are NOT a Chinese colony.

I'm very close to actually supporting the responses by protesters thus far, because I didn't see they were trying to physically hurt anyone, nor destroy property. Perhaps they were in reality a 'peoples militia' seeking to rid their streets of invading Chinese military?

Lets do all we can to protest the Imperialist, Capitalist Chinese Governments disgraceful annexation of Tibet, and their ruthless and disgusting oppression of the people.

The Olympic spirit isn't about burying ours heads in the sand for the sake of entertainment.

Does it really matter what happens to the Olympic spirit?
Its become a trashy venue.
What was, if there ever was anything of any value in the games except for the few who wanted pleasures apart from reaching out to the worlds poor people... is almost dead:). That smile is me happy about that.
The Olympics have become little other than a sexfest for the immorality of the athletes.
They handed out some 40,000 condoms at the Sydney Olympics. Its no different from the German World Cup soccer match where they seduced 40,000 girls from all over Europe to meet the pagan lusts of the soccer fans. What a misery that would have caused to so many young women.
A quick death for the games might be appropriate.

Even Hitler knew what the real value of the Olympics was.

It's become just another venue for political grandstanding and economic opportunism - whether you're the host nation and want to create a certain impression - or whether you're a nation who wants to boycott the proceedings for your own reasons.

The original spirit of the Olympics was never a part of the modern version and as long as the athletes compete under national flags it never can be.

Why the sudden interest in the fate of Tibet anyway? They've been under occupation since 1949 - almost as long as Israel has existed - and except for a number of dedicated long-term protestors, most have not given then a second thought until now. Palestinians who protest against occupation aren't seen in the same way as protesting Tibetans.

Like the passion for the Olympic Games themselves, I'm fairly certain the current indignation will fade within days of the closing ceremony and we will go back to "business-as-usual" and the next bright, shiny distraction will be dangled before our eyes to keep us occupied and distracted from reality.

I think it's a successful and hopefully ongoing protest. The Olympics are a international event with a focus on international relationships. They have *long* been politicised.

And why the sudden interest in Tibet? Well, recent events, for a start. But the Olympic torch has given protesters a mobile and well-publicised venue to express their dissent. You can't be democratic in China, but supporters of an independent Tibet will be exercising their democratic rights to protest every country between wherever they are today and Beijing.

Millions of people are learning about the issue. That can't be a bad thing.

Graeme Mills

I have read your articles many times. Most of people here won't listen your suggestion at all. If they could open their eyes, they may tell something different from current reaction from overseas Chinese. I feel the Chinese Government gets stronger support than before. In 1989, the majority of Chinese were unhappy and urged a change. Today the place and the focus are changed. The westerners push them together to protect the current Chinese government.

People here want to improve the human rights and other things of China. It is appreciated. But right now they won't get support from majority of Chinese, except some groups like Fa LunDong.

Olympic spirit besmirched?

Who cares! The Olympic Games is a boring event relevant only to the Ancients who had nothing better to do.

The Olympic Games has already had its 'spirit' comprimised by cheats, drugs, drama queens and countries who bitch and moan about each other, thinking that high-minded bullswool about an pointless event somehow makes up for what goes on the rest of the time.

As much as we like to take the high moral ground on this one, we still love our trade with China more than we care for the plight of the Tibetans.

In this case we make more of a political stand to protect whales than we do to protect fellow humans.

We're probably gonna keep on protesting all the way to the bank. Nobody has ever mentioned the prospect of a trade embargo have they?

A poll in the Australian Newspaper showed that around 50% of the respondants wanted a boycott and 50% didn't.

Maybe my questions were wrong or people thought it was just another G Mills lecture, but I am surprised at the lack of response.

Something to consider from the ABC News

Winery seals China export deal

Posted Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:26pm AEDT - ABC News

A Pemberton winery has signed a multi-million dollar deal with China to begin exporting its wines to Shanghai and Beijing.

Salitage Wines has been working for two years to get its wines into five star hotels in major cities and out to newly developed regional cities.

Owner John Horgan says the south-west Western Australian business will have to grow to meet the demand.

He says he may have to outsource grapes to fill the extra 10,000 cases Salitage will be producing each year.

"We're going to try and grow ... organically internally to meet the demands of China," he said.

"I think, as they say in China, even a march of a thousand miles starts with one step, and we believe strongly in the principle that you start modestly and build upon it, but it looks really promising."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/12/2088294.htm

DB = Love it. Now, where is the remote?

Personally, I couldn't give a 'tinkers cuss' about the Olympics !

Since they allowed professional athletes to strut their stuff, instead of strictly maintaining the Games as the exclusive preserve of ONLY elite AMATEUR athletes, the whole ethos of the Event has been substantially sullied with organised corruption.

Further, one of the contributors herein, suggested that many of those involved in demonstrating along the route of the Torch, would probably not be able to articulate, as to what issues exactly, they were attempting to expostulate about!

As a retired copper, we'd simply call these ne'er do wells, 'rent-a-crowd'!

Also, notwithstanding what our Mr Rudd had decreed - Be under no illusion, the Olympic authorities of the PRC will (covertly) have many security/police personnel (involved on route security) on hand, in order to manifestly 'assist' in the smooth carriage of the Torch, on it's way.

I reckon it's simply a joke.

I totally agree with Vanilla on this one.

The Olympic torch relay is an opportunity for the Tibetan issue to attract world-wide attention.

Hopefully something good will come out of all this.

I agree with both Vanilla and Foxy.

However, to rid the Olympics of the political grandstanding from various countries as to
hosting this event and all the hoopla that goes with it, would not it be better for the Olympics to be hosted only in Greece? Greece could certainly do with the economic
advantages.

The IOC could well establish a permanent infrastructure for the Olympics in that country.

A recognition of the classical origins of the Olympics would bring to this event something more significant than is now apparent.

I am in the camp with Passy and Lev on this (as per your article on the other side) :).

However I do agree Graeme that many people don't really know much about the history of Tibet and there is a tendency for some to jump on another "freedom" bandwagon without knowing all the facts. The presence of a 'rent-a-crowd' does not in itself diminish the argument.

I think China's history of human rights speaks for itself but to some extent photojack makes a good point in his comments earlier on this issue. A friend just returned from Beijing and stated some of the media commentary is unjust. For example the slums that were knocked down did not (apparently) leave the tenants homeless as reported in some Western media. In fact they were moved into other accommodation. The point was they had no choice in where they were to be housed which obviously impacted greatly on their work and family connections.

Sydney did the same when they moved a number of residents out of Redfern to regional Australia and suddenly managed to find housing for the homeless.

I also have no interest in the Olympics but as Vanilla said it has been political for quite some time now and that is the reality.

U.S. Governor Jon Huntsman Jr. who has represented the U.S. Government in China said that protests can help pressure the Chinese Government to "undertake a healthy dialogue" with Tibet.

Apparently the Governor feels that now may be the right time.

"China had to anticipate protests when it bid for the Olympics seven years ago," said the Governor. Suggesting reformers within the Chinese Government were behind the push to get the games.

"This is unprecedented for the Chinese to subject themselves to this kind of scrutiny and spotlight, and they knew in 2001 that would be part and parcel of hosting the Games," he stated.

"The reformers won out years ago by saying this is a good thing. There will be change."

As the Governor pointed out, the top leaders of the Beijing Games are relatively young and high-ranking members of the Communist Party's Politburo. Xi Jinping, the Head of the Beijing Organizing Committee, is seen as a successor to China's current leader.

The current controversy over Tibet according to the Governor is, "Just the beginning of a litany of issues that will be brought up."

The Chinese appear to be, "...willing to embrace greater change moving forward."

We can only hope this is true ...

o sung wu,

You are correct that since the Olympics has moved from an Amateur athletic event, to that of the Professional domain - with all the massive financial benefits attracted to the latter, the whole ethos of the Olympics has been sullied and corrupted.

In many instances, it would be fair to say that the Olympics has become a proving ground for pharmaceutical industries. Perhaps this should be publicised with pharmaceutical companies strutting their stuff, indeed, financing the games, along with seminars and papers demonstrating how their products not only enhance the performance of athletes, but can also do the same for the general community. :-[

Similarly, some of the training methods developed could enhance the daily life of the average person.

Unfortunately, you would be right about some of the protestors along the route. During the Vietnam War, numerous protestors didn't even know where Vietnam was.

Professional dancers show the same dedication, discipline and ongoing training for their art with miniscule reward comparable to Olympic athletes.

People - and it must be admitted many are unpleasantly gingoistic in the their enthusiasm - go into hysterics of joy because one of their country won an event by .00 of a second; ... and the sights on the guns used ... and just how old are the children competing in the gymnastic events ... Do athletes trained in tertiary institutions have to pay HECS?

Again, I agree with o sung wu's comment: "I couldn't give a 'tinkers cuss' about the Olympics. If they put a shark in the swimming pool things might brighten up; or if athletes' sports were relevant to today's needs, then perhaps one could raise some interest. Fencing and a couple of other events are fine as these involve both mental and physical skills - but other sports ...

One can't even state that Olympians, as a class, embody the ideal of good health; and this is apart from those using performance enhancing drugs with the ultimate damage wrought.

The Olympics do give pleasure to many people ... so I suppose that's something ..

I just read a news article on this subject and it got me mad for a minute ...because i knew that when it said, these "violent protests" i thought many not so discerning people would condemn the protests in general.

Because the fact is, only a handful of individuals were shown to be remotely violent on the news last night. And some of them were police.

So having seen that there were only a handful who were like this on the news and hearing some condemn the "violent" protests across the globe for the actions of these few hardly violent protesters, I'm left thinking why "ordinary folks" are so beholden to media, even as they distrust it...do they simply not think about what they see and who they condemn? Or is there a political agenda to be gained from portraying the protesters as spoilers, rather than simply people choosing to voice their concerns? I think there is. A lot of interests rides on these Olympic Games. In San Fransisco, many were deprived from viewing the Olympic Torch simply because authorities couldn't stand managing the disruptions and protests and the bad publicity. And I do not accept for a minute that the actions of several individuals constitute the ENTIRE PROTESTS on this issue. It's false, but the media are milking it and playing with people's emotions.

You make a good point Steel. Many of the protestors are from the Tibetan community or Falun Gong who have taken issue with China on human rights abuses for some time.

It is always the actions of the minority that the media jump on - bit like the anti-globalisation demonstrations.

From the ABC News Site

Chinese trade will weather Tibet disagreements: Govt

Simon Crean: confident of a constructive trade relationship with China.

Related Story: China, Aust to restart free trade talks: Rudd Federal Trade Minister Simon Crean says the Prime Minister has shown the Australian Government can express concerns about Tibet, without affecting the trade relationship with China.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/11/2213792.htm

DB = just about says it all

'express concernts' - not riot on the streets

So, are the r/p/d's looking somewhat foolish? I think we have just witnessed a wombat frenzy.

Our government is not going to rock the boat where trade and $s are concerned.

This does not mean that the person in the street cannot "boycott" the games
by not attending them. However, one wonders just how strong convictions are about
China and Tibet. Should fewer people than usual attend the Olympics then perhaps
this would send a message to the Chinese.

Ruefully, it is unlikely that human rights abuses will prevent devotees of the Olympics
forgoing their trip to this event. Those who do attend are even more unlikely to protest. The Chinese will see this as "business as usual". Success all round.

i'd like to propose forming of a "pooo army"..- pooo = politics out of olympics..
we should get many people under such a banner to "present peacefully" at events such as the torch relay in large numbers to discurrage "hijackers" from comandeering the event
i will be at the canberra relay to start the ball rolling
poooarmy@y7mail.com