As an addendum,

Quiggley you might be interested to read my dot points for the improvement of road safety, as expressed under ‘Putting the brakes on the road toll’, starting off with the one that we seem to have total agreement on. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=2877#26745

Perhaps you would like to continue our discussion on that thread.

Ludwig,

“You seem to forget that 'good' people do generally respect and adhere to the law and the 'bad' people don't give a darn about adhering to it, so why in the world would they respect it.”

"Most people aren’t really all that good at respecting the law. They will disobey the law if they think they can get away with it. Speed limits are a prime example of this. Only a small minority actually respect the law itself."

That is a good example of why people keep on pointing out the dangers of assuming you know more than someone who specializes in the area. Please take a look at:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/biz/trafficoperations/traffic/limits.htm

You are particularly interested in speed limits. Most people drive at a reasonable speed not at some speed that gives them a special thrill for having broken the law. Your observations of people doing the wrong thing and the faulty conclusions you have reached do not correlate with the reality, The Washington Department of Transport refers to the research that clearly establishes that speed limits are most safely set at a level that most people would drive at anyway. The idea of people just trying to get away with something isn’t the point.

This is the reason that we don’t tell you that your approach to geology is faulty. You do what you do based on your knowledge and experience.

“I’m sure we agree that a huge move forward could be made if we simply put police in unmarked cars, and perhaps on our streets in plain clothes as well. ..”

Do you think that is realistic? What votes will politicians get for making it appear that there are less police on the streets and when more drivers whine about entrapment? You have a different image of politicians than I do.

Mjpb, you haven’t told me what you mean by “nitpicking”.

Neither have you pointed out where I have “insulted police”.

What do you think of my dot points (3 Nov) ?

“http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/biz/trafficoperations/traffic/limits.htm”

I read this site when you posted it previously.

“You are particularly interested in speed limits.”

No, not really. I’m interested in overall road safety, law and law-enforcement. We just seem to be discussing speed more than anything else because that’s where the centre of our disagreements seem to lie.

“Most people drive at a reasonable speed…”

What do you call reasonable? Most people don’t have an adequate appreciation of risk factors, or that erring on the side of caution, ie driving a bit below what they speed they would like to sit on, is probably a damn good idea. Just look at the situation in the Northern Territory, where many drivers sit on 150 kmh or higher on the open highway. How does this sit with the fact that NT has an accident rate THREE TIMES the national average?

The fact is some people will grossly abuse speed, and safety, if they can get away with it. And you don’t need a very high proportion of drivers to do it for it to be a very significant factor. Even if only 1% behaved like this, or 0.1%, you would still encounter it at a very regular rate. And I reckon a good 10% would fall in this category.

“The idea of people just trying to get away with something isn’t the point.”

The idea is to make it as safe and as fair as possible. And that includes keeping the fraction of drivers that just completely disrespect the law, and do what they feel they can get away with, under control.

continued

“ ‘I’m sure we agree that a huge move forward could be made if we simply put police in unmarked cars, and perhaps on our streets in plain clothes as well. ..’ “

Presumably you do agree with this in principle.

“Do you think that is realistic?”

Absolutely. Why wouldn’t it be? Sooner or later some pollie that is slightly more intelligent than the rest is going to see what a huge difference this could make. And when it is reflected in improved figures on driving infringements, accidents and fatalities, they will be vindicated, and the inevitable opposition from sections of the public will be put back in its place.

Crikey mjpb, if we are going to be defeatist about simple big steps like this, then we may as well just forget the whole deal, and accept that the law and safety regimes are just going to steadily get worse.

Speedcamerajustice

I take it from your lack of response that your rally didn’t go so well.

“http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/biz/trafficoperations/traffic/limits.htm”

I read this site when you posted it previously. You seemed to miss what they said about the speed most people choose to drive.

"“Most people drive at a reasonable speed…”

What do you call reasonable? Most people don’t have an adequate appreciation of risk factors, or that erring on the side of caution, ie driving a bit below what they speed they would like to sit on, is probably a damn good idea."

I believe traffic engineers determine the upper limit by measuring the speed 85% of the traffic moves at or below. Most people have severe limitations in driving skills but they can steer down the road and choose a reasonable speed. These basics are about all they can do.

"Just look at the situation in the Northern Territory, where many drivers sit on 150 kmh or higher on the open highway. How does this sit with the fact that NT has an accident rate THREE TIMES the national average?"

I think the expression is 'red herring'. In the NT there are almost as many tourists as residents so many people are trying to work out which side of the road to drive on. Then you have severe issues with drink driving and many remote areas and long highways. (It is a third of the surface area of Australia.) All things being equal a crash in remote area could cause a death when a similar crash near a city would never result in a death as medical attention is quickly available near cities. There are many reasons for the high accident rate on NT roads.

"The fact is some people will grossly abuse speed, and safety, if they can get away with it."

Absolutely. I was talking about most people not some people.