Rechtub & Belly,
I can identify with both your points. been there done that. I have benefitted from being in the AWA but I have also paid the price for adhering to rules sanctioned by unions.
I have seen people who worked hard & made good. Others got shafted.
My interest in this debate is the general situation re working conditions & a reasonably fair remuneration system. I see on a daily basis where selection criteria is ruining small communities. How ? People from mainstream successfully apply for positions because they have "more qualifications". Those from the community who are in fact more suited for the position miss out because of a lack of "qualification". How on earth can someone from a small community ever hope to compete when never given an opportunity to get experience ? You'd be very surprised how often those lacking the "qualification" are in fact baby sitting the "qualified" until they're ready to leave only to be succeeded by yet another "qualified" applicant. Of course if choosing to ignore reality anyone can did up a counter argument but the fact remains that there's no better policy than reward for effort as dictated by demand. The under priviledged must be helped but being under priviledged should not be an automatic demand system to get the cake & eat it as well just as being an employer does not justify to hold someone to ransom because they need
work

Individual every day if we are lucky we learn something new your post reminded me I am not a coward, yet at times have acted like one.
Make zero mistake I AM union forever.
But know it is more likely than not some union, some official let you down.
It is a symptom of a job that puts more stress on you than you could ever Begin to think, some are unsuited to do that job, never intended to try but yes some one let you down.
One day, you would hope the young leaders will understand, change must come no one who can not understand both sides of an issue should wear our shirts, no one who will not give 100% every time should.
That union members must have only the best working for them, and that propping up a failed official betrays our reason to exist the members.
But leaving all that , forgetting falling membership, users who once planned unfair dismissal claims, the movement is the workplace insurance most need.
This thread is a fact, some truly honestly do not think wage rises are anything other than a cost to the economy.
It is those wages that drives so very many small businesses without past wage rises some would be even smaller.
Unions should tell the story of casual workers being used , never being able to own a home or maybe even a car , some after 20 years in the one job have no hope.
A complex issue fairness in the workplace we look more at the wages side of the issue than the profit side.

hi rehctub & belly,
just fyi, read in the Cairns Post today that the newly elected Council has already approved itself the highest allowable pay & it has hardly moved into the office yet. be interesting what the Council workers pay goes up to.

Individual I do not know much about the council elections, nor do I care much as I beleive we, as a nation, are over governed.

My opionon has been duplicated by many if you look at how few people bothered to vote for these so called 'super councils'.

However, one would asume that if the area you were managing, as a councilor, was all of a sudden extended, in some cases by 200%+, then perhaps a pay rise would be in order.

I would also suggest that most councilors work 80+ hours per week and, when equated to an hourly rate, makes for pretty average pay rates.

On a more serious note you will no doubt of heard of the recent press releases stating that business confiedence is at an all time low.

Scarey stuff hey! All this damage in just four months.

I wonder how many Rudd supporters are having second thoughts about the change they felt they had to have. I would also suggest that the next time they feel the need to change our world, that they be reminded that many of us were quite happy with the way it was.

Do not take this as a personal insult rehctub I proudly am from the other side, that side won so did Australia.
You play games in telling us of the drop in confidence but not telling of the world wide changes that have taken place in those 4 months.
You bring a smile to my face in reminding me of your pain and not telling us of the current polls showing your sides continued decline in those months.
Most voters are content with the results see the polls but ask why is it that your side in quite moments say it will take two more elections to become competitive?
Forever and one day I will remain baffled by conservatives who see wages costs as a crime but not profits
Rehctub be assured I am not your enemy but take this challenge here on record your side will not gain power for 9 years at least and not without basic change to the way it thinks about working Australians.
And it must address middle Australia.
That conservative Mantra about wealth creation apparently is not aimed at some who work.

Forever and one day I will remain baffled by conservatives who see wages costs as a crime but not profits

Belly. I see your point on overseas but just remember that we are riding the resourses boom wave in this country. God help us if we fall off this wave. This is why I fear interference to the workplace from unions and alike.

As for your comment above, I for one have always felt that wages should be linked to profits, much like a percentage of.

In tough times often the only winner is the worker because they get a pay rise even if profits are down. And I am not talking big business.

As for the rud government thay have achieved nothing other than to appologise to a generation that this generation personally did nothing wrong towards and put ourselves at a disadvantage though the kyoto treaty signing.

What happens OS gives little comfort to the pensioners that all of a sudden can't afford to live.

Trust me, it is no coincidence.