Perhaps not.

So put the jackboots away.

Nine Jewish schoolgirls from Yesodey Hatorah Senior Girls School in Stamford Hill, North London, refused to answer questions on Shakespeare in their national curriculum tests because they consider the Bard to have been an anti-Semite. They got zero marks. As a result their school slipped from first place to 247th in the [British] national league tables.

See:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/03/01/jewish-schoolgirls-refuse-to-answer-anti-semitic-shakespeare-exam-questions-89520-20336272/

I have no sympathy for the nine girls. I think they behaved like, well, like hysterical schoolgirls.

I am also a great fan of Shakespeare's. I cannot imagine an English curriculum without a Shakespeare component.

However, if you are going to protest then the nine set an example of how it should be done.

--They issued no death threats.

--They did not threaten to firebomb the Royal Shakespeare Theatre

--They did not try to prevent others taking the Shakespeare test.

Their protest was entirely peaceable and they are presumably prepared to live with the consequences.

As for the cause of the protest itself, I'll let the Bard have the last word (from the Scotch play):

"..it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

a rational post, stephen, somewhat surprising. quite right, it will be sufficient punishment if they have to earn a crust at wimpy's, and marry a deli clerk instead of a doctor.

In contrast, Palestinians spontaneously celebrated and rejoyed on the street when an Arab massacred young and innocent Jewish school kids. Their behaviour defines the Islam religion they so strongly adhere to.

Evil behaviour is just that - EVIL. No decent people should celebrate an evil outcome.

There are people in the world suffering greatly under very oppressive regimes. Although suffering, those oppressed do not resort to suicide bombings, terrorism and deliberate killings of young and innocents... not unless they are followers of Islam.

Strangely, under Islam bad is viewed as good and evil is wholely acceptable. You will not find a Muslim who will condemn the Jewish school killing without qualification - It's always the fault of others; that Muslims are bullied by the West, by Jews.

Indeed the Palestinians celebration of the killing is yet another evidence Israel has been right in how she defends her survival against onslaught of an evil religious and political system of Islam.

There is only one right way how the Palestinians will live in peace among the Jews -- Days when Palestinians turn towards Atheism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism...XXism... anything but Islam.

The day when Islam is universally recognised as the root cause of evil, but not a credible religion.

Ignoring the idiotic non sequitur from gz, I too agree with you on this one, Steven :)

So it is let's bash Palestinians and Islam week, as usual. As if there wasn't spontaneous celebration over Palestinian deaths. As if extensive video coverage of those deaths was allowed. I am glad I live here and not there.

It stuns me why crazy jews like these ones bother to live in the West when they have Israel?

I thought thats what the jewish state was for so that jews like these ones could live there.

The head teacher who supported there actions is obviously an idiot as well.

Probably the most educational aspect of this girls issue is the way they demonstrate minority 'Alamo mentality'.

It does surprise me though that they would go to such lengths. I can only assume it is an extension to the socially destructive direction of 'human rights' in the sense of "We are all equally free to express our.....(culture, religion etc)"

It sounds like these girls have somehow been infected with the "Its beyond hope, the world has abandoned Israel/Jews" kind of thing. So, what have they to lose by such an action.....

Steven also makes another crucial point. The girls made a decision, they acted on it, and they suffer the consequenses. I also have zero sympathy.
Good.. this makes

-Steven the Jewish secularist Islamophobe
-CJ the secularist (fill in the blank..I won't cos might be in twuble)
-BD the 'Christian extremist Islamophobe'

in total agreement.

No further 'stomping' is needed for the girls, but some re-education about social responsibility might be in order, plus some investigation into where they were influenced and by whom, and how, to think this way.

More Sanity...is needed for MS here. Ask yourself this question: "IF.. the radicals in Gaza ceased hurling self destructive (and increasingly long ranged) rockets at Sderot and now Ashkelon (where 60% of Gaza's electric power comes from) How many Israeli attacks on Gaza would occur thereafter?"

Perhaps a better question might be "How long would Palestinians be able to remain in Gaza in they didn't fight the Israeli State for the "privilege"?"

I suspect they'd be "putsched" out within a decade.

A few reality checks.

EasyTimes,

The nine would find no refuge from Shakespeare in Israel. Shakespearean productions are a regular part of the Israeli English theatrical scene.

I'm not sure the head teacher actually "supported" the nine's cause. He merely said he was proud of them for standing up for their beliefs.

LOL DEMOS

I doubt the nine's economic fates will be as harsh as you seem to imagine.

Gz, MoreSanity

Not sure what this has to do with Palestinians

On a different note,

IS THE MERCHANT OF VENICE AN ANTI-SEMITIC PLAY?

The Christians hardly come off as honourable and heroic characters.

Example:

Some time after Shylock's daughter, Jessica explains that she has been "saved" by her husband, Lorenzo, who has made her a Christian, that self-same Lorenzo says:

"In such a night
Did Jessica steal from the wealthy Jew"

The play is riddled with ironies of this sort. Antonio freely admits to abusing Shylock. Then he asks him for a loan. Then he agrees to accept the loan on ridiculous terms.

Though not directly related, my post highlights Islamists behaviours. This follows on your comments about the nature of protest by those Jewish girls:
--They issued no death threats.
--They did not threaten to firebomb the Royal Shakespeare Theatre
--They did not try to prevent others taking the Shakespeare test.

BD takes Antiseptic and dips him in 'hospital grade' Domestos... to rid him of the ideological bateria currently infecting his verrrrry sick brain ....

mate.. ur not serious right ? truly.. ur not..... are u ?

Which part of 'Israel withDREW from Gaza' means 'Israel would invade Gaza' or rid the land of Palestinians as you suggest?

Which part of "Israel could storm Gaza anytime it liked, but doesn't"
suggests to you that they would ?

and do you ACTUALLY think that those puny little annoying rockets are actually dissuading Israel and 'holding them back' ?

Surely.. you MUST be on some kind of mind altering drug, because no sane or medication free person (seriously) could come out with the stuff you just did and mean it.

You must be related to Michael Moore?

"BD takes Antiseptic and dips him in 'hospital grade' Domestos... to rid him of the ideological bateria currently infecting his verrrrry sick brain ...."

Nice, start out with ad hominem and go down hill from there. No wonder you're a "Christian". (See, I can do it too, although entirely more adroitly as I'm not dodging my knee jerking spasmodically).

"mate.. ur not serious right ? truly.. ur not..... are u ?"

Yep. Shall we talk about figments of the imagination?

"Which part of 'Israel withDREW from Gaza' means 'Israel would invade Gaza' or rid the land of Palestinians as you suggest?

Which part of "Israel could storm Gaza anytime it liked, but doesn't"
suggests to you that they would ?"

It's a little thing called historical precedent and current Israeli domestic political expedience.

"and do you ACTUALLY think that those puny little annoying rockets are actually dissuading Israel and 'holding them back' ?"

Perhaps it's the knowledge that those "puny little annoying rockets" are the best they can hope for. What do you think it is?

"Surely.. you MUST be on some kind of mind altering drug, because no sane or medication free person (seriously) could come out with the stuff you just did and mean it.

You must be related to Michael Moore?"

LOL. Have you stopped chatting up the choirboys? People will start to talk eventually, you know...

(See, ever so much more creative and even less relevant to the topic than your own effort. Perhaps I should consider becoming a Pastor?)

I'm still not sure how what was intended as a slightly humorous thread about hysterical schoolgirls got onto the Palestinians. But as it did here's some breaking news.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7286945.stm

SNIP

The Israeli government has ordered its military to reduce its operations in the Gaza Strip, Israeli officials say.
The order comes after a sharp drop in rocket fire from militants in the Palestinian territory.
…..

Rocket fire into Israel from Gaza dropped from dozens every day a week ago to a few over the weekend.

END SNIP

From the Israeli perspective a cessation of rocket fire is victory enough.

So Has Israel succeeded in deterring Hamas' rocketeers?

For all their much vaunted re-armament Hizbullah has not fired a single rocket across the Lebanese border since the cessation of hostilities in 2006.

Let's see what happens.

The Jewish school girls behaviour reminds me of a couple of similar incidents:
i) One school girl of a different religious persuasion ( indoctrination?) took to wearing a religious head covering to a public school in western Sydney. She was portrayed by her supporters (many from various secular camps ) as something of a martyr .Eventually the state govt caved-in, though girls wearing similar non-religions head coverings are still covered by the ban.
ii) Three athletes who gave black power salutes in the 1968 Olympics , and one athlete who carried a non-national flag in the 2000 Olympics – all as I understand it contrary to Olympic protocol– are now in popular folklore, portrayed in saintly hues.
We as a society tend to be suckers for such ego-centred grandstanding.

Easy times >”It stuns me why crazy Jews like these ones bother to live in the West when they have Israel? I thought that’s what the Jewish state was for so that Jews like these ones could live there.”

So you’re obviously not a supporter of multiculturalism. I suppose that is a good start, however why restrict yourself to the “Jews” what about the people who burnt down embassy’s because someone published a picture they don’t like? The people who issued death threats to western writers and directors who made art they didn’t like? The people who throw acid in the face of women who aren’t covered up. Get some perspective!

More sanity >”So it is let's bash Palestinians and Islam week, as usual. As if there wasn't spontaneous celebration over Palestinian deaths. As if extensive video coverage of those deaths was allowed.”

Typical of the islamist terrorists western apologists to make excuses for the disgusting scenes in Palestine. Don’t let the little fact that you don’t see mass community celebration in Israel when 8 children are assassinated because it doesn’t happen get in the way of your pathetic justifications.

Demos> “it will be sufficient punishment if they have to earn a crust at wimpy's, and marry a deli clerk instead of a doctor.”
I wonder whether your fantasies of an ideal democracy have room for your snide anti-Semitism?

Steven >”I have no sympathy for the nine girls. I think they behaved like, well, like hysterical schoolgirls.”

I happen to agree with you. I would note however that they have been encouraged in this type of ridiculous behaviour by the ongoing actions of British Gov’ts in granting bizarre and dangerous appeasements to the nations’ muslim fanatics. You know the types who sit on welfare for ten years taking full advantage of western generosity at the same time preaching hatred of their hosts. For example, a British prisoner recently sued and won over the prison systems refusal to offer traditional Arabic meat like camel and goat on traditional muslim feast days. See http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_1_urbanities-steyn.html for a great read.

I agree, these girls are being stupid, as for the rabbi ...

Surely we aren't going to see any Jews go down the path of a particular Islamic groups in Britain ...

The world gets collectively dottier by the second ...

Islamic scholar , Dr. Martin Lings (Abu Bakr Siraj ad-Din) claims Shakespeare ... aka ... Shaykh Zubair was very likely a Sufi, and Romeo & Juliet a direct plagiarization of Leila and Majnoon; Othello’s smiting “a malignant and a turban’d Turk” was somehow satisfying.

An irate Muslim stated that Lings was a deviant, and if not a kafir, definitely a liar.

Variously, Goethe, and Abraham Lincoln’s mother, have been identified as Muslim; whilst the Napoleonic Code is claimed to be based on Sharia law.

Apparently in the US, some teachers are finding it difficult to refute these statements. PC
has gone absolutely, totally, stark raving mad!

I aplogise, as I am going to be pedantic:

It would have been very interesting to know the exam questions presented to the girls. Shakespeare is multi-layered ... Whilst he threw up prevailing sentiments of his time, he also gave pause for thought ...

Shylock: "Hath not a Jew eyes"

Shakespeare, doubtless, would never have met a Jew during his life. Jews in England had been expelled by decree of Edward 1, 1290, only being re-admitted under Cromwell nearly some four hundred years later, 1656. Thus, Shylock is to a degree a stereotype. However, Antonio does not come off well.

Considering the waves of hysteria against Jews across the Channel, one could, perhaps, read a condemnation of this treatment. “The Merchant of Venice” was written 1596-8. Act 1:Sc.1, alludes to the “Andrew dock’d in sand”, which scholars accept as referring to San Andres, a Spanish vessel captured in an expedition to Cadiz, 1596. The Inquisition was still in full swing in Catholic Spain & Portugal, an “enemy” of non-Catholic England.

The idea of “revenege” would not carry the import to Elizabethan audiences, as it does to us.

Dueling was so prevalent, that there was a real fear that young aristocrats would kill themselves off - James I, and Chas. II banned it, only to have young bloods cross to France to satisfy some slight. Manuals were written about the code of duelling, including the necessity of, and when to challenge another. Bernard Mandeville (d.1733) argued that duelling was essential to maintain courtesy both at court and within upper-class urban society.

Danielle, the girls were being examined on The Tempest, not The Merchant of Venice.

Thank you for the historical context of the Merchant of Venice. No, neither Antonio nor Lorenzo come off well.

Once again I'll let the Bard have the last word:

Shylock speaking:

"...If you prick us, do we not bleed?
if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison
us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not
revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will
resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian,
what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian
wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by
Christian example? Why, revenge. The villany you
teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I
will better the instruction."

Take the above quote, substitute Israeli for Christian and Palestinian for Jew, and you have Gaza. Current recent rocketeering scores I last heard of were Israelis 180, Palestinians 9. The match continues with the sympathy being spread in inverse ratio to the body-counts.

Henry VIII > " Take the above quote, substitute Israeli for Christian and Palestinian for Jew, and you have Gaza. Current recent rocketeering scores I last heard of were Israelis 180, Palestinians 9. The match continues with the sympathy being spread in inverse ratio to the body-counts."

What a monumentally shallow analysis. More Germans died during the first and second world wars. Does that make them the victims? If you start a fight and catch a hiding are you the victim? Hamas and their cohorts have been firing literally hundreds of missiles a week at Israeli towns since the IDF unilaterally withdrew. The fact that they haven’t caused as much death is totally beside the point. They would if they could.

Take just one example At least four Islamic Jihad members were among 11 killed when Israel fired two missiles at a yellow van carrying several Katyusha-Grad rockets. Two points to make here. The first is that the blast would have been far more devastating because of the explosives being carried. Secondly, hamas and their brave followers are hiding behind the skirttails of their communities, using women and children as cover for their activities.

If you bothered to listen to what hamas and their ideological bretheren are saying you would see that Israel is fighting a war for their very survival. Hamas declares that it will not stop fighting until all the Jews have been driven from Palestine. In other words, NO Jews in the middle east. They don’t just mean they want their own country with no Jews. They mean one muslim country that encompasses the entire mandate of Palestine. That is called ethnic cleansing or Genocide. We sent Serbs and Croats to The Hague for that kind of behaviour. With soft lefters baying for their blood.

Dear Steven,

I'm back. I've won the fight. The results are looking good.
Now that I have access to a computer I can once again join in the discussions that I have missed so much. Thank you for your support.
It meant a great deal.

Steven, I can identify with the school girls. I refused to sit for an exam at uni once when I thought the questions were 'stupid'
and not a fair assessment of the subject. I accused them of simply re-hashing an old irrelevant exam paper from the past. Silly me. I had to repeat the subject the following year.
But it was important to me to make a protest at that time.

As far as Shakespeare being antisemitic? "The Merchant of Venice" as an example - would appear appaling to modern day folk. The discriminatory language, especially coming from Antonio would shock many young people.

However in Shakespeare's time, both the church and the state considered moneylending at high interest a crime. Shylock was thus a natural object of scorn. On the surface, Shakespeare's view of him reflected the attitudes of the day. But the dramatist treated the moneylender as a very human and even sympathetic person.

For example, Shakespeare provided Shylock with an eloquent statement of how it feels to be part of a harshly treated minority:

"If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?"

As I said earlier, I can identify with the girls wanting to make a point by not sitting for their test of "The Tempest." They saw an
opportunity, and took it.

What can we give this beautiful new generation?
The unwanted gift of our experience?
I don't think so.
Perhaps only the right to make the same mistakes,
And afterward not saying, 'I told you so!'

PaulI-more Germans did not die during WW2. They killed 20 000 000 Russians as deliberate policy. A five to one kill ratio in Germany's favour. You would find a similar ratio if you did a Palestinian/Israeli body-count during the last 20 years from the first Intifada. Your lack of knowledge of history shows. Whatever Israel was or is, the Israelis dispossessed bewteen 700 000 and 900 000 Palestiniians of their land in 1947-48 at the point of a gun, raped Palestinian women in the process, and used bulldozers to clear their houses. This has been documented by legitimate Israeli historians, and published. Now, if the Indonesians tried to do that to me, as a loyal Australian I would attempt to stop them using equal or preferably greater violence; it would be my duty to do so. The UN recognises the right of occupied peoples to fight back violently against their occupiers, which is what the Palestinians are doing and, fortuneately for us, the Australian Aborigines are not.

Henry VIII

Similar numbers of Jews were driven out of their homes across the middle east after 1948. Do you think there is a chance any of them will ever be able to go home? One example. During the 1948 war all Israelis in the old city quarter and arab areas of Jerusalem were expelled .5 arab armies invaded Israel in 1948 intent on driving all of its citizens into the sea. In other words attempted genocide. Two of those arab armies took and held the Gaza and the west bank. Instead of using that land for the Palestinians however they kept it for themselves. 19 years later the mad man Nasser decided to have another go at wiping out the Israelis. 6 years later the Arabs were at it again and this time they came even closer to doing it before being decisively repulsed. Three times in less than 30 years Israels neighbours tried to wipe them out.

Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. Israeli arabs are members of parliament. They are students at Israeli Universities. How many jews do you know of who live in Palestine?

In any case 1948 is 60 years ago. The average age of Palestinians in 15.8, do you think perhaps they might have other motivations? Have you ever read the Hamas charter?

Would you go about killing whatever Indonesian you could find, man woman or child, to stop them in your fairy tale of invasion? I bet not and nor would most civilised people including the Israelis.

The UN as an organisation is an absolute joke. The very idea that Libya or Zimbabwe or North Korea deserves the same representation as Australia or the US is ridiculous. For many year the UN has been the primary vehicle through which dictators and despots have attempted to knee cap the US and Nato. In any case you say the UN recognises the right to resist. Well it was also a UN mandate that created Israel and would have created Palestine as well if they hadn’t been so bloody minded.

Welcome back, Paul. Missed you ... glad to see you online

Steven,

You shouldn't have mentioned the "J"- word. You know what some people are like. They go into convulsive paroxysms when they see it -diverting an interesting topic into a anti-Israel harrangue. It's the "J'-word, I tell you. I can only assume that people wait, hands hovering expectantly over their keyboards, waiting ... Such dedication ... stupid ... but dedicated.

King Henry VIII,

If you kept up to date you would know that there are Gazaans murdering many more Gazaans, than Israelis killing them in defence of their country. Check monthly figures online. Read the latest Fatwa issued by the religious leader of the Palestinians.

Many people are floating the idea that Egypt resume control of Gaza, originally a protectorate (albeit parlously administered) and then relinguished with joy. One can't say that Gaza has been an unqualified success. Where is the infrastructure that Arafat was to set in place? With Israel's departure, Gaazans blew up commercial enterprises and structures which Jews left, including agricultural sites. Why?

Paul I-your contempt for the UN is disgraceful.

I would cheerfully nuke anyone who wanted to invade where I live, kill me, rape my wife and bulldoze my house. Unfortuneately, atrocities and racism practiced by our forebears always comes back to haunt, just as they are haunting the Israelis now. The European Zionists were allowed into Palestine by the British under the Balfour agreement which specified that they would not interfere with local politics. They had no fundamental right to live there other than the fact that Moses and his mates had invaded the place about 2000 years earlier, if the Bible is to be believed, and had run around toppling the walls of Jericho, then populated by other people, and knocking off Philistinian giants in a cowardly manner with slingshots. Well, if in 1948 I had been an Arab and had seen 700 000 to 900 000 of my fellow Arabs kicked out of their homes by a bunch of illegal immigrants, I too would have gathered five armies and invaded with as much slaughter as possible to convince the illegal immigrants that they weren't wanted. And no doubt had I been one of the illegal immigrants I would have shot as many Arabs as possible. However, Palestinians are human beings just like you and they deserve a damn sight better deal than they have been given for the last 60 years. We would demand the same if we were in that situation, just as those heroic Jews in the Warsaw ghetto also fought back and killed Germans so as to define their rights. Of couse, the Germans regarded them as terrorists for doing so.

LOL Danielle,

I have no intention of dignifying the theory that the side that suffers the most casualties must be the side that's in the right. The relatively low number of Israeli civilian casualties is not due to any lack of trying on the part of various Palestinian factions. If Hamas or Islamic Jihad had the capability they would kill more Jews.

I also see no point in arguing with HenryVIII. He believes the wicked Zionists took away land belonging to the Palestinians. There is nothing I can say that will change his mind.

In a way I prefer the likes of HenryVIII to the hypocrites who make anodyne statements about Israel's "right to exist" while in practise making it impossible for Israel to defend itself against its genocidal neighbours.

The comparison with the Warsaw Ghetto is piffle. The Nazis were carting Jews off to the death camps. Israel is not exterminating Palestinians. On the contrary, given the opportunity I have no doubt Hamas would exterminate the Jews.

If Hamas ceased allowing Gaza to be used as a platform to attack Israel, Israel's defensive counter-attacks on Gaza would cease

Hey people! Settle down. I sit here and watch you all, and quite frankly, your not doing anyone any favours. Your all just nit picking and going nowhere. This just proves my theory that we are not ready to mix yet. You all live in the world of yesterday and if you think this is positive thinking, then we all loose! My advice is, always think of the big picture, cause when you are drowning, does it matter if you are black or white or if you believe in god, cause by your standards, I am already dead in the water. On the battlefield, men who have had enough, come back across the line and help his fellow man.

Overpopulation is what is causing ALL the problem in the world, and I will say it again! Its time too wined back and if we don't, we will become extinct one way or another. I see it as clear as day and I am starting to think, this is the beginning of the end.

Try and use your imaginations in this hypothetical situation, cause if the world had only half as many people, what would the world be like.

Just have a think.

I find it strange that those who sympathise with the Jews murdered and tormented by the Nazis, as I certainly do, fail to acknowledge that what happened in 1947-1948 was in fact ethnic cleansing of another group of people by what were, in reality, invaders. If that simple truth were acknowledged then it might lead to a path of understanding and reconciliation in a couple of generations. One can list modern brutalities by both sides for as long as the cows come home; one can curse Hamas or the equally bigotted and violent right- wing Jews as much as one wants and throw blame here and there; one can kill 20 Palestinians for 1 Isreali, or even vice versa. But NONE of this will solve the problem, as history has proved time after time.

The root of the problem is that a bunch of human beings living in Israel were kicked off their land by another group. We cannot return to the pre-1947 situation or the pre-1916 situation, just as it is impractical for we 20 million Australians to go back where we came from. However, the first step is acknowledging past history; the second step is to refuse to let that history, and the terrifying history of the Holocaust, imprison us in fear and hatred. Then there might be hope for both sides. It is a very difficult ask, and the first Palestinian or first Israeli politician who tries it might just get assassinated, as was Sadat. But that risk comes with the job of leadership.

Danielle, thanks, nice to be back

Henry VIII > “Well, if in 1948 I had been an Arab and had seen 700 000 to 900 000 of my fellow Arabs kicked out of their homes by a bunch of illegal immigrants, I too would have gathered five armies and invaded with as much slaughter as possible “

And you had the temerity to point out my lack of historical accuracy. The invasion of the five Arab armies preceded the mass exodus of Palestinians from Israeli held areas. So that renders all your inaccuracies that follow redundant. The arab invasions were the primary cause of the mass evacuations.

Secondly you have ignored the fact that almost as many Israelis were expelled from their homes in arab countries in the region at the same time. Yet arabs still make up a sizeable minority of Israelis. How many jews do you know of who live in Arab/Muslim countries? How many temples exist in Arab muslim countries. Yet Israel has mosques.

Thirdly you obviously haven’t heard about the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. Or the offer to the Palestinians of their own state at Camp David in 2000 in return for a renunciation of violence.

You haven’t even understood the basic sticking point in negotiations. The issue most Palestinians want to see corrected is the return of Israel to the pre 1967 line, the green line. 1967 was the war which changed the facts on the ground. Until 1967 the Gaza strip and West Bank were help by Egypt and Jordan. Both those countries declined to allow Palestinians to form their own countries. What is currently termed the occupation began in 1967 when Israel took over responsibility for the West Bank and Gaza Strip. When Israel withdrew unilaterally from the Gaza Strip the palestinians didn't seize the opportunity to start their own country. They used Gaza as a jumping off point for further attacks on Israel. Concessions have done the Israelis little good which is why they are reluctant to make any more.

Evolution, do you know anything about current fertility rates? If you did you wouldn’t be rambling on about overpopulation.

What the world would look like with half the population is vastly more old people than young people and vastly more third world citizens than first worlder’s. And if you’re about to say we could do with a few less first worlders, just let me remind you who is out there in the third world. In sudan recently there has been an epidemic of Penis vanishing. Local men have had their penises vanish after contact with foreigners. The Secretary of state put out a press release saying their was no scientific basis for these claims and that it must be “sorcerey magic or emotional problems”. Sudan have recently purchased half a billion dollars in weaponry. In Iran we have a man who has been widening the roads in Tehran for the return of the 12th imam, the Mahdi(BTW he's 1200 years old) who he believes is hiding down a well waiting for the right time for his triumphal return.These people have a nuclear weapons program and have been repeated threats to use them. In Africa we have politicians who deny that Aids is caused by HIV. In many parts of the world muslims believe simultaneously that 9/11 was a mossad operation and that it was Islams greatest hour. Islamic school children are taught that on judgement day they will slaughter the jews with the help of the rocks and the trees who will call to them to come and kill the jews hiding behind them.

Those who suggest that population is the cause are simpletons relying upon pseudoscience and eco-chondria. Some of the most densely populated places on the planet have no violent problems. Consider Japan, Singapore or South Korea. Some of the most sparsely populated countries have overwhelming issues. Eg Sudan.or Angola or Afghanistan. I think it is you who needs to do a little more thinking.

.PaulL-A little history.
1941-Yitzhak Shamir proposed via a letter to Hitler that the Jewish Stern Gang should co-operate with the Nazis to fight the British to protect Nazi interests in the Middle East Palestine.Interesting idea.

April 1948-"Palestinian society disintegrated under the impact of the Jewish military offensive....Plan D both permitted and justified the forcible expulsion of Arab civilians" -the Israeli historian, Avi Shlaim. 369 Palestinian towns and villages destroyed before Israel's declaration of independence-same Israeli author. Offical Israeli records, quoted by Israeli historian Benny Morris, indicate massacres of Arab civilians by Israeli forces in a named number of towns and villages. At Ramle, Ytzak Rabin orders expulsion of entire Arab population without attention to age. Etc Etc Etc.

May 1948-Establishment of State of Israel. Seems a wee bit of ethnic cleansing went on in the run-up to the formation of the State of Israel and the SUBSEQUENT attack by the Arab States.

The right of Palestinians to return to their homes has been affirmed by the UN Resolution 194, and has been re-affirmed by the international community 135 times. Israel is in breach of 246 Security Council resolutions concerning its behaviour. Okay. You consider the UN is a waste of space run by nasty people. It was also the UN which affirmed the right of the Jews to live in a State called Israel (and UN Resolution 46 required the Jews and Arabs to refrain from any political activity which would prejudice the rights, claims or position of the other community).

Atrocity can be matched against atrocity; extremist against extremist; blame against blame. It will lead nowhere. I will end by quoting a very famous humanitarian Jew. Do unto thy neighbour as you would have your neighbour do unto you. Love thine enemy. Both are appallingly hard things to do. He got crucified for his trouble. But that is the only advice that can lead to harmony in the Israel-Palestine region, a place where people on both sides are literally prisoners of the last 70 years of their history and all the fears derived therefrom.

King Henry VIII

Hitler. Read: Record of the Conversation between the Fuhrer and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem on November 28, 1941, in the Presence of Reich Foreign Minister and Minister Grobba in Berlin, “Document on German Foreign Policy , 1918-1945”, Series D, Vol. XIII (London, 1964)

Regarding Jews, land ownership and land system in Palestine, and claims of Palestinian dispossession, read:
The Palestinian Royal Commission Report ( the Peel Report, London, 1937)
The Hope Simpson Report: John Hope Simpson, “Palestine: Report on Immigration, Land Settlement and Development (London, 1930)
Report on Agricultural Developement and Land Settlement in Palestine by Lewis French (December 1931) and supplementary report, 1932.
Land Ownership in Palestine 1880-1948 (Jerusalem: Academic Committee on the Middle East, 1976)
and not the least, King Abdallah, “My Memoirs Completed” (London, 1978) pp.88-89

Have you actually read UN Resolution 194, or had it explained to you?
Read the comments made by Lord Caradon, the British Ambassador, who drafted and approved the resolution, and again his comments on June 4, 1967, yet further explained by the British Foreign Secretary in an address to the House of Commons on October 29, 9, 1969. Again repeated and explained by the U.S. Ambassador Arthur Goldberg (Speech to AIPAC Policy Conference, May 8, 1973.

Because of the disaster of the 1948 war, in which, incidentally, Britain joined with Arab States (but sensing the wind, withdrew early), a report was conducted as to the inexplicable outcome. The Iraqi War Commission Report found that only 4% of Palestinian males of arms-bearing age participated. What do you deduce from that?

As to the right of Israel to defend its country, and the policies applied, I suggest you
read objective works on International Law; even Jus Bellum.

cont ...

Paul is correct about the CURRENT composition of the UN. The Arab States are amongst the wealthiest countries in the world, and amongst those with the greatest influence in the UN, and are also among those countries with the highest illiteracy rate and appalling human rights abuses built into their administrative system.

Many Iranian dissidents and intellectuals have been calling for the expulsion of Iran from the UN until such time as its human rights abuses are changed. These Iranian dissidents and intellectuals also defend Israel’s right to exist.

Personally, I believe that there should be no Jewish settlements beyond the Green Line; I hold this belief very strongly. Yet the Green Line is not a internationally recognised border, but an armistice line with Jordan.

A recent philosophy study indicates that people are “less-thinking”, their ideas are based upon others’ opinions. Their ideas are not based on evidence. The consequence being that people are not only being manipulated, but also are losing all ethical discretion.

I am taking Steven’s advice an not responding further.

HenryVIII,

Nice words but nonetheless mere futility. You must realise most human do not believe in "Love thine enemy". Their lack-of-love is also their human rights and must be taken into consideration also.

To me, the overriding factor is the preservation of freedom and democracy for today, tomorrow and into the future.

NO Cessation of Hostility is WORTHY if we lose our freedom and democracy in gaining peace.

In other words, if people who are enjoying freedom and democracy have to constantly fight to enjoy the privilege, then it is not a bad thing to keep fighting.

Think about it.

A little more history for you

Three Jewish battalions were grouped into the independent "Jewish Infantry Brigade Group" which fought for the British Army during WWII. There were no voluntary jewish units in the german army.

al-Husayni, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem fled Palestine in 1937 and took refuge in Nazi Germany during World War II and helped recruit Muslims for the Waffen-SS. In 1941 al-Husayni met Adolf Hitler in Berlin and asked him to oppose, as part of the Arab struggle for independence, the establishment of a Jewish state .

Avi Shlaim is part of a group called the “new historians”, many of whom are members of the communist party like Ilan Pappe. Their views are widely discredited and are considered historical revisionism akin to holocaust denial.

Benny Morris desribed 2000's intifada as a "political-terroristic assault on Israel's existence (and also as an offshoot of fundamentalist Islam's ongoing assault on the West, in which Israel, unfortunately, figures as a front-line outpost)". He is very critical of Avi Shlaim who, according to him, "moved steadily to the left--or is it, really, to the right? After all, he shares his anti-Israeli analysis with European neo-fascists and the Islamic jihadists, who openly advocate Israel's destruction in the name of medieval religious values." When a Haaretz interviewer called the 1948 Palestinian exodus "ethnic cleansing," Morris responded that "there are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide—the annihilation of your people—I prefer ethnic cleansing."

When the Palestinians finally tire of the death loving, radical Islamists and realize that Israel is not going to give in to violence, there might be room for negotiation. But how can Israel realistically negotiate with a group whose stated aim is the expulsion of all Jews from Israel. These are the same people who teach their children that on the day of judgement, rocks and trees will call to the faithful to come and kill the jews hiding behind them.