Most of us by now would be aware of the issue over the Kokoda Track/Trail.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/07/2156377.htm

LOCALS WANT COPPER MINE. (Fuzzy Wuzzy Angels)

The Koiari landowners say they will stop tourists who try to pass through the track until the PNG Government gives a proposed copper mine the green ligh

SENTIMENTAL BLOKE wants TOURIST DOLLARS.

Canberra is lobbying the PNG Government to kill the mine project in favour of the tourism dollar.

Questions arise out of this:

1/ Cultural Imperialism ?
2/ Rights... sentimental outsiders verses pragmatic indigenous interests.
3/ To what extent if any, do 'outsiders' who have a sentimental connection to 'the land' (be it Gallipoli or Kokoda or Tobruk) have a right to impose their sentimentality on a local population of a soveriegn nation ?
4/ But but.. 'we saved them'...err did we ? or did we save "ourselves".
5/ Deception. Why do we emphasize 'Tourist dollars' when the people against us can also COUNT? Its plain deception, and an insult.

One of my favorite 'themes'.. "Who's rights should prevail" ? :)

To me, there is no validity whatsoever in the idea that we Aussies have any "right" in regard to foreign soil. The only thing we have is a memory which lives on in the many images taken at the time, and which are in our war memorial.

Would it not be rather sad, if 'our sentimentality' became a source of eternal ill will toward us, among those who helped us save ourselves from the Japanese? Perhaps they might be thinking "Well.. what good did it do us to help those white foreigner pella's"?

I have to agree David. Kokoda is a horrendiously important cultural thing but really it's not our land to voice ultimatums over, and like you say, create eternal ill will because of sentimentality. It will always be there, but obviously there is a need for them to have income.

Not so long ago they had a natural disaster there.

Yes they saved us and we have done bugger all for them in return.
Shame on The Australian Government.

They have just as much right to progress as we have and its their land.

Sure its sad but who are we to tell them what they can do.
I reckon some of the old diggeres that they risked their lives to litterally cary them out would say would say=

Go for it Wuzzies and thanks mate.

For those who might be interested, if need be the Kokoda Track can be diverted along the ridge to the NW by about 3-4km. It's no major diversion. The key thing is that the landowners own the land. It's their decision and Australia has to respect this, irrespective of the wishes of the Australian owners of the main trekking company using the Track and Australia's maudlin sentimentality about being the world's best fighting men. Howard and Downer created genuine ill-will against Australians during the last 10 years by being paternalistically arrogant, and that feeling has gone into the bush in PNG.

Henry *Paternatilistically Ignorant*.. interesting point.

It raises a dilmemna we face in life which is most difficult to resolve.

Paternalism often arises out of a lack of confidence with the 'child' being able to cope with, or be responsible for the management of resources, life and competing interests in a way which keeps the peace. (not to mention the fear of our own vested interests being threatened)

Paternalism tends to be 'very slow' to release, and Idealistic Nationalism leavened with personal interest and lust for power is very quick to rise up. Usually the result is (from my observation) chaos for a quite a while because the institutions of the Rule of Law have not had time to mature, and those in positions of influence and power, are still linked too strongly to tribal connections or pressures in multi tribal nations. I cannot imagine anyone in PNG keeping a straight face of the judge was a Chimbu and the Chimbu defendant was 'miraculously' cleared of all charges.

Good to hear that a slight diversion can pretty much solve the problem.

Thats most likely the best all round solution.

Just one point of order though, I don't think we derive 'Worlds best fighting men' from Kokoda.. or anywhere.. that kind of myth is as dangerous as the macho BS surrounding pre and post Cronulla.

Most of our diggers at Kokoda were relatively poorly trained Militia who were more the clerical/support staff types than warriors.. but they did hang in and learn pretty quick eh.

Extraordinary. I find myself largely in agreement with Boazy on this isssue.

However, I think that the landowners are having themselves on of they think that an expanded copper mine and the royalties that come with it are going to improve their lives in any way. I've had some close involvement with other landowners in PNG whose lives are considerably worse on virtually every indicator since major mines have been established in their territories, notwithstanding the payment of millions of kina in royalties and compensation.

But it's their choice. Some people even call it progress.

Boazy: "I don't think we derive 'Worlds best fighting men' from Kokoda.. or anywhere.. that kind of myth is as dangerous as the macho BS surrounding pre and post Cronulla."

While I agree with the sentiment, Boazy's certainly changed his tune from when he was positively salivating while egging them on from the sidelines at the time.

Whatever the locals want, the locals should get. The Kokoda Trail (who decided to call it a track?)does have significance for Australia, but those who had a true experience of it are almost all dead now. the Trail is pounded only by grandstanding contemporary Australians who will never know the true horrors and hardships endured on it.

If foreigners tried to influence what we did in our country, we would rightly fly into an uproar.

How about a bit of respect for the people of New Guinea? Whether or not the landholders involved benefit from mining in the area is up to them and their government.

It is nothing to do with Australia or Australians

aaah CJ.. I have yet much to teach you young Jedi :)

'Salivating'... egging on ?

Cronulla 'included' macho BS.. it was not 'that' which I was egging on, if I was egging at all. I was egging on the assertion of Aussie national Identity, which I do not equate with the flag draped dills who slurred out 'lez gedem'.. er.. no. The organizers of the protest rally had correct motives and methods. It was the ratbag element which hijacked it. Needless to say, if I ever organize any public protest it will be a very 'private' affair :)

I haven't changed my tune, you are just becoming less 'tone deaf'

Agreed about the quality of life thing and the benefits to the Fuzzies. There is a copper mine in Ranau Sabah,Malaysia and it has pretty much killed the river. (and some of the inhabitants I think)..
and I hear stories from Indonesia also about polluted rivers near copper mines.

Oh.. this thread was initially 'rejected'...can anyone see why? because I sure can't.

The interface between developed nations and their less developed neighbours is a pretty important and topical thing to discuss I feel.

Every time I see this kind of 'coal face' stuff.. I recall how the Treaty of Waitangi ended up with 'Visionaries' in Sydney (parasites to the Kiwi's) saying "Oh..lets ramp up white settlement there" and now we are reaping the harvest with increasing anti white racially charged land rights murmuring among Moaris.

I can understand it, after all..history is the great leveller. Once they find out that the treaty was written in 2 versions, one 'looking good'(giving protection) in their language the other 'a land grab' in ours..(them abrogating sovereignty) well.. enuf said.

I think there is a little of the 'white Sydney visionary' in Australian attitudes to PNG sometimes.

Boazy: "'Salivating'... egging on ?

Cronulla 'included' macho BS.. it was not 'that' which I was egging on, if I was egging at all. I was egging on the assertion of Aussie national Identity.."

While I appreciate that the enthusiasm you expressed at the time, for a physical confrontation between the 'Aussies' and the 'Lebs', is probably rather embarrassing in retrospect, you certainly expressed your xenophobia in a "macho BS" way in your posts to this forum and others. We've been through this before, and I can dig out your inflammatory posts if you want.

However, it's off topic so I won't pursue it unless you press the point. That would be another case of Boazy derailing his own thread, wouldn't it?

Kokoda Track; Kokoda Trail. I thought Trail was American and Track was OZ; was it not a Track before it became a Trail?

Mining in PNG can be said to bring a mix of blessings, just as the industrial revolution in the UK brought a mix of blessings. If we view generally increased life-span and education and fewer deaths in childbirth etc as a blessing then on the whole mining has been a positive influence overall.

CJ.. oh that I was perfect, but I'm not. Still, I press on.

I don't recall saying much on OLO of macho BS, but in response to some rather choice vile racist anti Australian sentiments on some other forums, I did get a bit verbally adventurous, and in some instances, they were probably not my better moments.

I'm glad none of us thus far have shown support for Australias 'sentimental claim' in Kokoda... I suppose we should also lump Ancac Cove/Gallipoli here too. I wonder how many Aussies would feel like our flag and veterans and history were being trampled on if the Turks decided in their sovereignty to develop the site for tourism with hotels and all manner of things. Or.. if they put plaques everywhere which gave a very 'Turkish' flavor to the events, such that Australia was demonized.

Galipoli is likely more sensitive than Kokoda.

For me this all underlines the tension between the kingdom of this world, and the kingdom of heaven/God. It is a great emotional relief to know that Jesus said "My kingdom is not 'of' this world" and he connects that sentiment directly with:

"If it were, my followers would fight to defend me"

So, Christians should not hold deep attachments to material things, or.. human governments, or physical structures or chunks of real estate. Certainly not in a way which could ever produce offensive conflict.

Quote! My kingdom is not of this world! Mate! we understand. The little IQ proposal will tell you nothing. Wisdom does not come from "THE BOOK". All-though, books are my best friends. A real person stands alone and everything in this world is our brother's and sister's and What happens next, is just the great never ending story of life! Brain washing is a terrible thing, but don't be afraid! If there is a god, it would love my strength. Isn't that the point?

Well boaz, reading your first couple of posts I totally agree. It's their call, though hopefully the altered route can make a compromise acceptable to both parties.

Left and right wings! The arrogances is the true problem! But I guess for the real example, look into the hearts of the fuzzy wuzzy people.

Taking a 'paternalistic' approach...it might be like this:

"Now people.. don't you know that money won't solve your problems? Life will become more complicated, stressful.. and there are a host of reasons 'not' to have a copper mine."

Such an approach goes over like the proverbial lead balloon.

Im guessing that its more about the Chief and his close kin who are most wanting the copper mine.

EVOLUTION :) aah..with you I can see potential for a vigorous debate.

Your approach to things "my strength" and the 'never ending story of life' hmmm.. Ok.. 'scenario' :) "My" strength is greater than yours.. and we are just 2 people who control various resources, have a bit of a tribe, (women children) but I decide "I want 'your' resources and 'your' women and 'your' children"..so.. the story of life unfolds in that I come over to your area, lop off ur head, and take your women and children and property :) hmmm now who is to say "I'm wrong" ?

Of course, thats the furthest thing from my heart, but not my mind, as I'm talking about it now. I'm just taking your position to its next logical step.
Keeping it in the area of the topic.. using your approach, we shouldn't worry in the slightest about what the PNG folks feel, we should just bulldoze their feelings and dig our heels in and say "We are big, you are small...it WILL remain a tourist icon for Australia"

Which of course leads to the next logical step of them suddenly forming an alliance with err.. *pick a name* powerful entity, and then they say "Err No, you small, we (with our new found ally) BIG.. get stuffed"

So..thats the 'kingdom of this world' which I referred to above. Christs way is much better. You should be concerned about 'brain washing' ..absolutely, but then.. does it occur to you that your present state of mind is a result of long term 'secularist' brain washing with ideological NapisanPLUS :)

Geez, can we stop with the "fuzzies" and "fuzzy wuzzies" cr*p now please? And the broken-English "We big" thing. (And no, that isn't pidgin either.) And yeah, I know full well what the affectionate nick-name given to the then Papuan (not New Guinean) people was all about. Back in 1945. Move on now, folks. Anyone got any idea how people feel about being referred to as a fuzzy-wuzzy in 2008? Exactly the same as people feel about the words n*gger or k*naka.

In fact, I was prevented from posting with the words n*igger or k*anaka spelled out correctly, yet fuzzy-wuzzy and variations thereof sail through unmolested.

Romany: "Move on now, folks. Anyone got any idea how people feel about being referred to as a fuzzy-wuzzy in 2008?"

Actually Romany, based on fairly deep knowledge and firsthand experience of PNG, I think you'd find that landowners along the Kokoda Track would relish the label. This, of course, is because it provides them an identity which attracts cash - the issue with the landowners along that section of the Track that passes through the proposed copper mine extension is that they see a greater potential for cash in the form of royalties than they currently get in 'compensation' from the tour companies. There are several distinct tribal groups of landowners along the Track, so this is undoubtedly where it's getting messy at the moment.

Of course, anywhere else in PNG, to refer to somebody as a "fuzzy-wuzzy" would likely and rightly be interpreted in the racist manner in which it was said - however subconsciously.

An interesting aspect of this situation is the claim by the son of the original surveyor of the Track - aired on ABCTV this week (Foriegn Correspondent I think) - that the route the current trekkers are using in that area is not actually the one used in WW2, which skirts the proposed mine extension by half a kilometer or so. Nobody in the mainstream media seems to have picked up on this, despite its potential to give the Australian government a very convenient 'out', so it may well turn out to be 'mauswara', as they say in Tok Pisin.

David. I believe the home is where the heart is and don't you think first world people have done enough damage as it is. Basically, its none of our business. Let them sort it out them self's! The problem with intervening in another countries fights, is that if you don't make both sides happy, one will be and the other wont, and that has just make us a new enemy! Has the Iraq war not told us anything?

On a humanitarian level is all a first world should be assisting with and good neighbor of course, but what is the real ugly truth we have found, oh that's right, they really love to help, when theirs something in it for them.

CJ, - well there's something we have in common, eh? Used to scramble around The Trail (and swim in the pub swimming pool)as a kid - when there was never a "sentimental bloke" in sight.

I was in fact using as my reference a couple of people who are helping mediate in the process from the PNG side and who abhor the fact that the FW label has been taken out of context and picked up and dumped into widespread usage today.

Yeah, the people who helped back in the day were proud of the label (used to qualify the important noun "Angels")and their descendants in turn proud of the history. But using it to refer to contemporary inhabitants of the area (a usage not confined solely to this thread)is as much a solecism as referring to "N*gger Minstrels"; another common usage of the time.

YIkes.. well aside from the rather twisted excursions of CJ and ROMANY into 'its racism' re my use of the term 'FuzzyWuzzy' (dark indeed are those MaCarthyist minds of yours)

CJ did raise an important point. "Idenity" yes.. of course.. a dimension hithertoo escaping the discussion. In fact, there would be no better 'identity' to attack to this issue from the point of view of shaming the Australian government! There is very little emotional capital in 'Papuans demand copper mine' but substitute FW for P and immediately you have a connection to a historical debt we owe.

Romany "We big, you small" is exactly the kind of blunt-object language used by the US State dept toward diplomats of tiny countries who actually think they figure in the scheme of things covered by 'American Interests'.. except that it might be a bit more colorful.. one quote I recall made a comparison between the USA as an Elephant and the whining small country as an 'ant'.

The issue of 'identity' in lobbying has certainly not escaped the left in other case "The Barwon 13" to cite an example.

Surely then, if 'Fuzzy Wuzzy' is racist, 'Sentimental Bloke' is equally so. Bottom line.. stop looking for a 'racist' behind every Forum green tree and under every OLO rock.

Taking the issue of 'identity' a step further, I suppose Canberra could utilize the 'Diggers who saved the Papuans' kind of line if they wanted to.

The other important points raised in CJ's posts, was the actual location of the real track and the variety of tribal groups.

It is often the case that when a public stance based on wrong information (location) is taken, there is also reluctance to withdraw from it. So, Canberra might conveniently forget that reality in the discussions?

BD,"stop looking for a 'racist' behind every Forum green tree and under every OLO rock."
1) "Stop looking" infers that one cease an action already undertaken. I am not, do not, nor ever have been in the habit of looking for racists.

2) "under EVERY...." infers that in each article or post on OLO I engage in this behaviour. I do not.

3) the word racist is a legitimate word. It is neither a quote nor slang. It does not therefore require quotation marks. If your intention is to distance yourself from racism then say so.

5) It was not my intention to infer that anyone was racist. Careless and/or unthinking in regards to language, yes. That the nomenclature was redolent of a paternalistic attitude, perhaps. Presenting the question from another viewpoint for those who had never considered it that way, definitely.

6) The statement that my thinking is "twisted" or "dark" is both mistaken and unwarranted. I am, however, as I have mentioned many times, curious. Could you explain how you came to this conclusion? I considered it a fairly straight line from A to B:- The post contains the words Fuzzy Wuzzy which, I agree, many people utter with affection. I pointed out that, when it was coined, the world was a different place. I possess the first-hand knowledge that nowadays there are those who are offended by it. I referred to another title which was considered innocuous at the time of coining but would now be considered by all to be a racial slur, to both illustrate my point and give insight into how those who object to the FW title feel.

7) I am not well-versed in American history but have always associated MacCarthyism with an unfair witch hunt for communists. Obviously I am mistaken. Could you expand a little?

8)Using hyperbole, exaggeration, generalisations and presenting unfounded conclusions does not constitute debate.

9) Uttering such words as: "I disagree" "Oh. I never thought of that before." or "I see your point" do not cause one to lose face.

Dear Romany... please lighten up a tad.

Macarthyism is a euphemism for 'witch hunt' yes..if was reds under the beds, but the idea of finding 'racists' under the fuzzy wuzzy beds means its an appropriate metaphor.

But rather firmly suggesting I 'drop' certain terms seemed to be based on an assumption of racism... CJ then supported my use of that terminology by stating that the people themselves would be ok with it..
leaving your comments a tiny bit like lone shags on rocks.

Anyway.. moving on, chill.. relax.. *here* a diet cola for ya :)

Actually no, Boazy. Once again you conscript my support in missing the point. It's an annoying habit of yours.

You must have missed my assertion that the "fuzzy wuzzy" bit would be rightly regarded anywhere else in PNG as being racist. Further, as the landowners in the mine area have demonstrated, it's an identity they'll gladly shed if there's a better deal apparently on offer. There's a great doco on this sort of thing made by Australian filmmaker Dennis O'Rourke called "Cannibal Tours".

It's all about the interactions between European tourists and tribal people in East Sepik Province - but from the perspective of the "fuzzy wuzzies". Their comments about the tourists are quite instructive about how people in PNG feel about adopting roles for tourists for money. It'd be interesting to interview any of the many young men who do the actual hard work of carrying all the tourists' luggage and camp gear as they affirm their mostly Aussie egos on their personal journeys on the Kokoda Track.

Also (I have to say this if only because nobody else has pointed it out), the "Sentimental Bloke" thing is another anachronism. CJ Dennis' poem had nothing to do with the Kokoda Track, and rather was taken up in the aftermath of Gallipoli in WW1. While it's a wonderful expression of Australian culture at its moment of breaking away from its colonial cradle, it has only the most tenuous connection to the way that current Australians regard the Kokoda Track.

But trust Boazy to make it :)

For goodness' sake, BD! "Lighten up" "Chill", indeed.

Because I didn't sprinkle my post with comic-strip interjections (Yikes?), and I set out clearly what I was trying to say are you somehow now convinced I am full of rage/angst/chagrin or some other "dark" emotion?

I did state clearly that I wasn't necessarily imputing racism to you (in this instance at least). I was inviting you to perhaps think before you speak and to keep abreast of changing perceptions. I was also objecting to the generalisations and veiled implications with which you seek to make points. But I guess it didn't work, huh? Hence the somewhat tortured simile likening my post to a sea-bird?

I don't consider my viewpoint invalid because you don't share it. CJ, above, has spelled out for you once more what his view is. The conclusion I am pretty sure that both of us has drawn is that CJ knows some people who don't object to the title while I know some people who do. Which shows merely that there are two views of the subject.

One thing I am absolutely certain of though: had the Fates (or Furies) not snipped the thread, my own "fuzzy wuzzy angel" would now be a young lady whose fuzzy wuzzy (and Oxford educated) father and all the rest of her fuzzy wuzzy relatives and friends would have had your guts for garters had you applied such an epithet to her!

PS - I'm with CJ re "The Sentimental Bloke". But am also intrigued in regards to one of your previous posts: how on EARTH does calling a bloke "sentimental" equate in any way, shape or form with racism?