What people forget in these dark days of the Bush Administration is that America is actually the most revolution prone country the world has ever seen. In almost every field, politics, economics, technology, finance, religion, business, philanthropy, law, philosophy Americans have at some time or another in recent history upset the applecart.

That was why I've long thought that if Islam is ever going to undergo a radical make-over it will originate in the United States. Most of the traditional Muslim countries are too stagnant to change without an external impulse.

In most of Europe Muslims are a problem to be managed.

But in America Muslims are just another generation of immigrants who are expected to sink or swim largely on their own.

In America Muslims enjoy both freedom and prosperity. In America Muslims can see how previous generations of migrants have been able to adapt to the American mainstream while retaining the essentials of their culture.

And only in America do Muslims enjoy a priceless asset – the honesty of kafirs uninhibited by political correctness and armed with the first amendment right of FREE SPEECH.

Only in America do kafirs dare to ask Muslims the hard questions. Questions that, on the whole, Europeans would never ask.

To some extent all this is true of Australia as well but Australia lacks America's weight.

Well, has the make-over of Islam finally started?

See:

US MUSLIM WOMEN SEEK ACTIVE FAITH ROLE

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7265021.stm

"Laleh Bakhtiar is a Muslim scholar who has translated the Koran, making controversial changes in standard translations which she says more accurately reflect the original spirit of the religion.

"Dr Bhaktiar's English text has removed derogatory references to Christians and Jews. It changes many of the most important words, even substituting the word "God" for "Allah", which she says is more inclusive. Most controversially, her Koran rejects the idea, in Chapter Four, verse 34, that men may beat their wives."

A straw in the wind?

Another attempt at reform that will be snuffed out?

I don’t know but I am fascinated.

Dear Steven :) I'm just waiting for the death threats and 'Fatwa' condemning her to death for "messing with the unchanging word of Allah"

While I fully recognize her noble intent...and her desire to reduce tensions between Muslims and Christians, the problem is.. the Quran was given in Arabic, and if you speak to most Muslims, especially religiously educated ones, they will confirm that the 'Quran' is in Arabic, everything else is not the Quran if it has been translated.

Perhaps her 'translation' is one of 2 things.

1/ An attempt to minimize disruption to the Muslim community who will always 'know the real truth' which of course will come out when they are stronger. i.e.. she is engaging in deliberate deception.

2/ She is simply a well meaning Muslim woman trying to make it better for everyone.

If it is "2" then one needs to determine how far such an idea would go under the watchful eye of the Muslim countries where it is a majority.
Of course.. it could change the flavor of Islam in America but good grief.. they are not the "Muslim world" by any stretch.

The other important point is.. the "Spirit of the Religion"

Does her translation actually reflect this ? or is it simply her desire to be socially accepted?

I simply don't see how you can determine the "spirit" of the religion apart from it's founder and his approach to it?

It seems like trying to make Jesus 'gay' to make gays more acceptable.

the americans certainly changed christianity, with the 'later-day saints'. of course, it began changing on the death of christ.

'eye of the needle' and 'give all you have to the poor' was 'explained' to allow the rich and arrogant to be christians, and the priests to be rich and arrogant.

not much left of christianity to subvert. so they turned their attention to the new religion, communism. eisenhower said "we'll sell cokes to their grandchildren," and he was right on the money.

now the yanks want middle east oil really bad, and the usmc is letting them down again. so they'll try to buy the kids, with fashion, entertainment, and freedom. it worked fine here, but ozzies are an easy mark. nowadays, the middle east has more money than the yanks and is much harder to impress.

Another straw in the wind?

VIOLENCE LEAVES YOUNG IRAQIS DOUBTING CLERICS

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/world/middleeast/04youth.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

"BAGHDAD — After almost five years of war, many young people in Iraq, exhausted by constant firsthand exposure to the violence of religious extremism, say they have grown disillusioned with religious leaders and skeptical of the faith that they preach.

"I hate Islam and all the clerics because they limit our freedom every day and their instruction became heavy over us,” said Sara, a high school student in Basra. “Most of the girls in my high school hate that Islamic people control the authority because they don’t deserve to be rulers."

Among doctrinaire Western lefties is it axiomatic that the US bears sole responsibility for the post-war violence in Iraq. Perhaps Iraqis are starting to recognise who are the real villains.

Now that would be encouraging.

And in PAKISTAN there are also be signs that Muslims are rejecting dogmatic clergy in favour of more secularist parties. The secular Awami National Party did surprisingly well in North West Frontier Province.

See:

http://www.libdemvoice.org/pakistan-elections-good-news-from-the-north-west-frontier-2204.html

Perhaps the "Ummah" is about to be hit by a wave of radical change.

Boaz_David:

Just to refresh your memory on the following statement you made:

“. . . the problem is.. the Quran was given in Arabic, and if you speak to most Muslims, especially religiously educated ones, they will confirm that the 'Quran' is in Arabic, everything else is not the Quran if it has been translated.”

I thought you might find the following link interesting and worthy of further investigation should you be interested. Its food for thought- I have quoted parts and have enclosed the URL link.

http://www.syriacaramaicquran.com/index.html

“The problem lies in the fact the Muslim commentators do not understand the language in which the Quran was written. The language of the Quran has always been Aramaic. Aramaic renders interpretations that are totally different from those rendered by Muslim commentators throughout the last fourteen centuries.

The Quran states that its language is Arabic, but Arab speaking people have difficulty understanding its language. The difficulty stems from the fact that the language of the Quran has always been and still is Aramaic. In the seventh century, the written language of the Near East was Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic, not Arabic. The classical Arabic is a distorted form of Aramaic. The Palmyrene and Nabataean inscriptions in Syria and Transjordan indicates that these two Arab kingdoms had their literature written in Aramaic, Greek and some Latin. None of these inscriptions were written in the "classical Arabic".

I thought it might be important to include the authors credentials and they are as follows:

“The author Gabriel Sawma is a lawyer specializes in International Law, with emphasis on the European Union Law, the Middle East Laws, and the Islamic Shari'a Law. He is considered a dinstinguided authority on Islam. Professor of Aramaic Studies. Author of A Study in the Aramaic Language of Jesus". The Author is a lecturer on Women's rights in the Qur'an, the Aramaic influence in the Qur'an and in Biblical Hebrew.”

Hi Tammy
I read that link.. I didn't see any actual example of how this might impact such things as 9:29 or 9:30.. but I did see that they claim the translations are different.. if you have any other link to the content, by all means supply it and I'll have a ferret around.
cheers.

LOL A bunch of non-muslim debating translations of the Kuran.

Well StG I've had many non-Christians - especially Muslims - try to tell me what the bible really says.

In fact a central tenet of Islam is that the koran actually corrects certain aspects of the bible. There's a case of non-believers "correcting" someone else's holy book on a grand scale.

One of the beauties of living in a free society is that we are all free to debate whatever we like. If you do not agree with our conclusions that's OK too.

However, the thrust of this thread is that MUSLIMS at the grass-roots are beginning to re-think Islam.

So what's your point?

Steven,

I read the article in the link you provided.
Sounds like the author is genuinely attempting to draw the line between the spirit of the Islamic faith and the bad habits imposed on Islam by the arabic culture. Which is a necessity to reform and modernise Islam and every other religion have gone through.

As a muslim I support her efforts, not sure where did the statement of 'Muslims are rethinking Islam' come from?

An old wisdom came to mind: light a candle, support someone lighting a candle or keep cursing and mocking the darkness.

Peace,

You all know how i think! America! Your powerful, and there's only one race that will win the end! and we will all be brown in colour. Let me give you a fact! I know as well as you know, we are running out time, and you know it. You can not pull a world together went it's not ready. Evolution on any level, takes a long time, and i ask you, religion! is still not out of the minds as yet, and its still a powerful tool, in which powerful people,, still use as a lever of control. Come on people! Cant you see it yet!

Hello FH,

It's been quite a while since I was here. But in a way it does not seem all that long ago... simply because nothing much have changed - You are still very much the way you were, never failed to present a soft sell of your religion, ever conscious of defending your godhead.

It's your responsibility to do that as a tru believer, agree?

So, are you saying it's only the fault of Arabic culture that Islam looks bad?

Also, I see your statement "As a muslim I support her efforts" is a subtle pretense that true Muslims support Islamic reform and modernisation. Sorry for being cynical again. But I believe I know your nature quite well.

Just in case you wonder, I stuffed up my user profile, after a long absence. But this is still very much yours - GZ Tan.

GZ Tan

It's not the only thing you stuffed up. The link to your website doesn't work.

(I'm always keen to see what makes people tick..)

Ginx.. see u 2morrow at King street :) u can see what makes me tick.

I wonder if you could cope with the shock of me speaking in warm friendly terms to the brother or family of one of the terrorist suspects?

FH.. I can almost feeeel the restraint you are exercising:) bless you mate.. Please note.. my comments are never directed at you or 'your' version of Islam.

That little ditty about candle, etc. very worthwhile.

In some cases, I hope it is also realized that when the candle is lit, it shows up things which were previously unseen..

blessings 2 ya.

David! Your a nut case. All the best my friend.

Ginx,
Not a stuff up at all - I simply didn't bother to update the weblink.
But I wonder, what made you think:
1. I can't even get my weblink right ??
2. I definitely have a website ??
3. my weblink has got to work in OLO ??
I'm interested to analyse how people think, as much as you're keen to see how they 'tick'.
So, can you explain what caused you to jump into conclusion on such minor matter as a weblink??

Fellow_Human,

Another possibility is that what we're seeing is the secularisation of Muslim culture in America.

Just as there are distinctive secular American Jewish and American Hindu cultures we may be witnessing the emergence of a secular American Muslim culture.

Evolution,

I have no idea what, if anything, you're trying to say.

EVOLUTION :) ur probably right old son.

But then, they sent a lof ot 'nut cases' to the Gulags in Russia for having 'unpalatable' ideas.

I'm not sure though on which specific grounds you said that.. care to enlighten ?

Ginx,
Not a stuff up at all - I simply didn't bother to update the weblink.
But I wonder, what made you think:
1. I can't even get my weblink right ??
2. I definitely have a website ??
3. my weblink has got to work in OLO ??
I'm interested to analyse how people think, as much as you're keen to see how they 'tick'.
So, can you explain what caused you to jump into conclusion on such minor matter as a weblink??
Posted by gz, Friday, 7 March 2008 7:02:54 AM

You don't understand English?

1) It didn't work!
2) YOU put a link up to 'gz's website'!!
3) ..........er, what was the point of putting it up?

Happy to explain. It is a tad galling when one posts with such superior arrogance referring to past membership and 'nothing changing' etc., a wee bitty judgmental... And cannot even manage to link their own website correctly.

Kettle/black?

Still struggling gz??

Hey David! Steady up on the old bit mate. Lots of people were condemned for their not so compatible thoughts and some were mad right enough, but some were found out to be right, hundreds of years later after their small minded country men had killed them. I think the religious sector has been found guilty on that one a thousand times over.

Do witches come to mind. But now we know that they where just chemists and naturopath's.

You have a nice day pimple boy. LOL

Sorry David, but you ramble a bit. As you can probably guess, religion isn't serving the people as well as it used too. All thought the ages, hundreds of millions of people have died in the name of some type of god and evolutionary minds with new types of insights, have just gone to waste on the battlefields and I believe this why man has moved so slowly. I feel religion is the true root of all evil and its like war! it only to serve its self.

Ginx,

It's easy to tell you're one judgmental, arrogant and foolish ex-blogger who has difficulty focusing on one issue, let alone comprehend someone else's writing.

Now, get this :
1). I didn't want my weblink to work. Is this simple to understand?
2). I do not have a web site. Can you tiny brain comprehend this?
3). OLO provides the weblink feature, not me. Is this not obvious?

Wait...SURPRISE !!

Since you're so hung up on my weblink. Here's an opportunity for you to win a BIG PRICE !!

For a short time tomorrow I may activate my weblink to direct to my friend's website. If/When you hit it, quickly post a message here to tell everyone what that website is. That way you may win a BIG price.

Isn't this a great idea for Sunday?

So start clicking on my weblink after midnight tonight and do NOT stop clicking. Then you're surely gonna be a lucky winner tomorrow !!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(when I was here previously I hardly encountered someone so stupid. what a waste of time, grrrrh.... )

A big PRICE. HA! You can't even get that right.

Now, get this :
1). I didn't want my weblink to work. Is this simple to understand?
2). I do not have a web site. Can you tiny brain comprehend this?
3). OLO provides the weblink feature, not me. Is this not obvious?

Now get this......;little pea brain:

2) ......Okkkkkkkkkkkk.....,no website....
1) ..if you don't have it,... why make the comment about not wanting the link to work......??
3) ...really? I'm soooooooooooo jealous!! Coz' they haven't provided one for me and many others....

So my ...er, big PRICE is for...., er, a website you don't have when you provide a weblink to the website that you don't want....

I TOLD you not to stop the medication!

Ginx: "3) ...really? I'm soooooooooooo jealous!! Coz' they haven't provided one for me and many others...."

The truth is OLO provides a weblink feature to every member. Obviously you haven't got the faintest idea !!

Haha..ha....It's only a matter of time I caught you out...your ignorance is showing - Exactly what I meant by my recent first post.

Also, apparently you have not been clicking on my weblink, like I told you to. Or else you would have found out it's actually YOU who needs to fix a non-existing website (http://www.ginx-is-a-good-gal.com.au/) to get it to work for you... Ha ha ha...

So, do you know how to set up a web-site by any chance?? Need some help??

Ginx,

I must apologise for being arrogant, condescending and insulting.
I have reviewed my posts above and I do think those are very unpleasant posts.

I can now understand why you had a dig at me.
It is understandable a weblink that does not work... is a bit silly.