Why cannot Religous Groups accept Transexuals ?
Why are they so blinkered that they do not understand the difficulties transgender folks have to combat during their life to try and overcome such prejudice and bigotry against them. Without a doubt homosexuality and transgender facts of life should be involved within the school curriculum all folks must be educated on the subject. This is why funding should not go to religous schools to be educated with prejudice towards gay and transgender folks. If the church and the bible cannot come to terms with the 21st century then funding should cease to these schools.

Well... given my rather vociferous history here..I guess I should make a comment.

Julie..

It depends. If a person has the basic physiology and homonal situation of one of opposite gender....then one is more sympathetic. But unless medical grounds for the desire to 'be' what one was otherwise not born to 'be'.. raises other questions.

So..I think its a case by case situation. I have no problem at all accepting a person who was born with both types of hardware.. and where one type has been (or will be) removed to allow a fullness of life as one or the other.

But if a person is born a man..or a woman..and just thinks they should be the other ? hmmm..I think therapy needed and possibly repentance.

So please don't say 'the church' we are many and varied.

Perhaps the best way is to ask "Would God accept a sex change for any reason other than a dual sexual biology at birth" ?

Julie,

Because, fundamentally, the Christian church can't get away from "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." (Leviticus 18:22) They're agin homosexuality, and many people confuse transexuality with homosexuality on some level.

Of course it's cherry-picked - in Deuteronomy the death penalty is prescribed for disobeying your parents and drunkenness - so it's interesting that so many Christians love to hate gay people. (Did you see that the "God hates fags" brigade came out to protest at Heath Ledger's funeral?) I guess it forms part of their tribal, us v. them thinking. Christians are also often obsessed with the sex lives of others. Lord knows why.

Not all Christians agree, of course, so as Boazy says you can't taint all with the same filthy brush.

Fortunately the Christian churches don't follow the teachings of
Leviticus to the letter for certainly all gays and transexuals would be stoned to death.

Religions often talk about having compassion.
Yet in practice they often deny it to those who need it most.

How sad that those who claim to have a higher moral ground than others actually project a severely lower form of understanding and appreciation of those different from themselves.

As a colleague I worked with told me," After 35 years of therapy I can safely assume my condition isn't curable no matter how much I continue to pray."

Foxy (and everyone),

Do you ever listen to BBC Radio 4 on the internet? You can listen to many podcasts through iTunes - they're excellent. I was just listening to a fascinating interview with Desmond Tutu and other Christians called "From Calvary to Lambeth". It's about homosexuality. Archbishop Tutu has much sympathy with gay people and says he is far less concerned with "personal sin" than he is with "structural sin" - how we letting whole countries starve and destroy themselves is possibly worse than concerning oneself with private behaviours in a gentleperson's boudoir. You would have loved it.

Kids don't care about gayness unless someone teaches them to despise it.

VANILLA and FOXY

Leviticus nevertheless shows the attitude of God toward "sin".

The specific punishments in those days, in my view were due to the tribal nature of Israel. The attitude remains the same.

You should look 'very' closely at the bit about the disobedient child... there is much more to it than you shared here.

"GOD HATES FAGS" is not quite right. "God hates homosexual behavior, adultery, fornication, theft, lying, deception, greed etc etc"... quite true...but we are ALL guilty of those things to one degree or another, whether physically or in the mind. SIN is what God hates, and he provided a solution not only to its 'penalty' but also its 'power'..in Christ's sacrificial death on the cross for us.

Remember how Jesus treated the woman caught in adultery, brought to him by the Pharisees? "The LAW says she must be stoned" they raved through gnashing teeth ('nowwww we've gotcha' they thought) But Jesus did 2 things.

1/ He turned it back on THEM....
2/ He exhorted the woman "go..and sin NO MORE"

Now.. given that 'I and the Father are one' and 'if you have seen me, you have seen the Father' means that our Lord was fully cognicent of, if not the actual author of the rules of Leviticus.. here we see the real compassionate nature of those commands.

They were not given so that self righteous hypocrites could gleefully hurl rocks at sinners they had busted in the act... but at providing a framework for a healthy happy community.

Maybe we can learn something from it ?

"Maybe we can learn something from it ?"

I think so. I think in really investigating the "love the sin, hate the sinner" philosophy, we can pinpoint where Christianity has led the west ethically astray all these centuries. It is an absurd dualism that stands in opposition to compassionate understanding. It is a fundamentally immoral point of view. It says, "I hate the way you've acted and I'll punish you without mercy, but, to avoid looking at my own prejudice and hatred, I pay lip service to the integrity of your invisible, immortal soul."

It's a way of avoiding delving deep into the psyche of people who don't fit in, people who do bad things, people who challenge us by making choices we would not. If you're a Christian, you don't have to stretch your great, elastic mind into contortions that might give you cramps. You can simply hate, then forgive yourself for hating, by loving. By loving in theory.

Better, I believe, to look deep in the eyes of someone who scares you, and say, this will be hard, but bring it on.

Dear Vanilla,

Well - you got to me even more so this time. Your last sentence actually brought tears to my eyes.

You are truly magnificent - and I take my hat off to you.

Wish there were more like you...

Dear Vanilla,

Your last sentence actually brought tears to my eyes.

You are truly magnificent - and I take my hat off to you.

Wish there were more like you on this Forum.

Foxy and Vanilla thankyou for that.
I regard Homophobia on a par with racism.
Alas David Jesus would be turning over in his grave if he read any of your posts.
Desmond Tutu has always been a great man unheralded but in the same ilk as Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Martin Luther King.
Hate can only be erased through education unfortunately the bible needs to be updated to bring it closer to the 21st century.
Gays, Transexuals and Transvestites are mostly kind and generous folk it is up to Society to recognise that they should not be ridiculed and if they chose to be who they are then so be it. It was amusing that the President of Iran said that there are no Homsexuals in Iran. Who would dare to confess that they are shades of Germany 1935 to 1945.

Err Vanilla... you misquoted that saying its "Love the sinner... hate the sin"

Our legal system is based on that.

The Christian concept of 'Love the sinner, but not the sin' is one which DOES look deeper than the outward symptom of specific behavior. In fact, it is much deeper than you think. It means that we don't hammer into a person who did the wrong thing, simply basing our actions on what they did. We try to look deeper.. 'why'.. 'what's going on inside'?

Our diagnosis is that most people do wrong things because they are alientated from the Creator. (medical/mental illness issues aside)

So, to correctly assess a persons actions b4 the Law.. all those things are looked at. Guilty or innocent, people are still creations of God, and thus His grace is open for them. The key (for those of sound mind) is repentance.

Julie.. sorry, but I must know a different set of 'gays' than you do. The ones I see are at the mardi gras.. flouting their way of life, ridiculing (illegally) Fred Nile and the Church generally.. and basically 'in your face' with there lifestyle.. I recall at least one occasion when the mardi Gras finished with a huge sex orgy at some stadium.. only one word for it.. disgusting!

So.. I have an alternative offer.. the Gays can catch up with a sexual practice that is in line with their created purpose. Man..penis.. Woman..vagina.. designed...for each other. Get the mind to match the body. There are many things in life that where we deny what we think are our natural inclinations for the sake of social/moral harmony and compliance with the law. Dogs wag tails..not tails wag dogs.
Men can love men..and women can love woman-platonically..but SEX with the same gender is deviant and sinful.

..and Julie, please don't presume to know the mind of Jesus better than he himself as expressed in his own words. Remember when the rich man came to Jesus asking "What must I do to have eternal life?" Jesus said "You know the commandments"...

The Church is there to promote the nature of God and his creational principles. If we are to condone sins against God in the Church then the Church has no role in the World. The Church promotes purity from sins and social evils that destroy society. We are to love and respect all persons but we do not condone their base behaviours without a sincere repentance [abandoning their sin]. If people are merely looking for acceptance and secure emotional relationships in ways not designed by God then the Church cannot accept such and pretend it is approved by God.

Philo: "If we are to condone sins against God in the Church then the Church has no role in the World."

Bingo!

Boaz: "Our diagnosis is that most people do wrong things because they are alientated from the Creator. (medical/mental illness issues aside)"

So, as to my earlier point about Christianity's lack of depth, QED.

Foxy, thank you.

By condemming Homosexuality that is nothing other than hate. To say they know not what they do but they can have counselling to cure them from their perverted acts is just pure hate and no understanding of the sincere transgender folks. If Boazys offspring admitted to him that they were gay what would be his reaction ?
Hate Crime is any hate incident which constitutes a criminal offence. which is perceived by the victim, or anyone else, as being motivated by prejudice or hat. This may include people who are different:
1 RACE
2 BELIEF OR RELIGIOUS SECT
3 SEXUALITY OR GENDER
4 OR ARE VULNERABLE ADULT BY REASON OF AGE, FRAILTY OR ANY DIABILITY.
Hate crime includes domestic violence crimes against race, belief, differents sects, gay, lesbian, bisexual. transgender, disabled people, the elderly, other vulnerable adults or young people, Bullying, harassment, graffiti, physical, sexual or emotional abuse- could all be examples of hate crime. These are all the issuea that Hanson was raising by inciting hatred and Howard with Kevin Andrews was doing the same so that they could cling on to office. It fooled the Australian people all the time but fortunately the Australian people finally found out when the penny dropped over the Hicks and Haneef the Queensland Doctor case.

I suppose Bronco you do not see hate by your definition of rejection in such statements as, "These are all the issuea that Hanson was raising by inciting hatred and Howard with Kevin Andrews was doing the same so that they could cling on to office. It fooled the Australian people all the time but fortunately the Australian people finally found out when the penny dropped over the Hicks and Haneef the Queensland Doctor case."

Are you not condemning Hansen, Howard and Andrews? You are vilifying identifiable persons - showing hate! The Church condems the act of sexual perversion as sin. The persons who performs such acts needs help. If condemnation of an act is hatred - then you refrain from calling persons who kill another person a murderer, or one who molests a child a peadophile. Recognise acts against society are criminal and must be condemned. Sexual perversions are acts against the best and pureist interest of a society and ought be identified as such. The person needs help!

Philo what has peadophile got to do with this post ?that is a different issue. Try and catch up to the 21st century then perhaps you can join some form of debate in the meantime go back to Salems lot and the Spanish inquisition that would serve you best and closer to your heart. Kevin Andrews and Tony Abbot must be your super heroes. Mine was Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Nelson Mandela they actually lived and showed the light for many to follow.

Problems arise from hearing from "religious groups" and so that is why it is infinitely better to go direct to God's authorised representatives the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church teaches that certain kinds of sexual practices like homosexual acts and also physical changes to one's gender are unnatural acts. Unnatural acts in thought, word or deed are contrary to Divine Revelation ( the Holy Scriptures); and contrary to the authentic understanding of those same Scriptures given to us all from the Church.
Why cut off funding? To pressure the Church to suit one's views? That sounds like retribution for not going along with you. No thanks.
There is no real prejudice against homosexual and trans sexual people but merely cautiousness and wariness. This is only natural.
New laws that are politically correct are your form of brainwashing to get everyone to go along with the homo thinking and agenda. One again, I refuse, no way Jose. Political correctness is off the planet and to be rejected vigorously.

To all you paranoid folk who seem hung up on busying yourselves condemning other people's sex lives, I direct you to these 16 'reasons' against gay marriage.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6997#106264

I trust they will show you how reasonable people view this strange obsession with dictating what other consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home.

They also show the reasons why the beastiality/pedophile argument is just plain stupid. Normally I try to phrase condemnations of arguments like that with a little more tact, but that one doesn't deserve it - it's just dumb, plain and simple.

(It's on page 4 of that thread. The link doesn't seem to take it right to the page).

Bronco,
In the line of your logic let us examine - Why is paedophilia a criminal act if the child is 12 years of age and appears to be conscenting to the adults sexual foreplay? Peadophiles argue it is a show of their natural instincts. The Muslim religion sanctions marriages of children even as young as six as was the case of Mohamet. Because a thing seems natural it does not make it legal.

Sex is a sacred [sanctioned] act only betwen a man and a woman in a committed relationship for the purpose of mutual love and the establishing and security of family. Other uses of sex are perversions of the order or creation.

"Blessed are you when people hate you, And when they exclude and insult you, and denounce your name as evil on account of the Son of Man." (Words to that effect).

Within this sentence, Jesus condemns bigotry and persecution in his name, which today happens to define the actions of certain people who ironically embrace Christianity - the teaching of Christ as part of their strategy.

Throughout his documented life story Jesus' most incendiary comments and actions were aimed at 1)Satan. 2) The men who mixed business & religion...(sound familiar?)

Where you find tirades against people or other religions - is in the Bible used by Christian Fundamentalists known as the "Fake Bible Which I Made Up To Suit My Bigotry: Large Print Edition."

The Bible contains a lot of hogwash which, in modern context, has little or no validity. The Bible tells us that anyone who comes into contact with a woman who is menstruating must do penance.

The Book of Leviticus, condemns homosexuality under pain of death. It also condemns the touching of pig flesh on Sundays... under pain of death.
That would certainly make football interesting. Whoever touches the ball dies.

Foxy: "That would certainly make football interesting. Whoever touches the ball dies."

That's so funny, Foxy! Bloody hilarious in fact. You are truly a special contributor to this forum.

I think I love you.

Unfortunately for Foxy, CJ it is tha Sabbath not Sunday - that begins sunset Friday night till sunset Saturday night. No Friday night footy or ya dead!

Good one, Philo - nice to see a sense of humour there! :D

Serious question. Are you a Seventh Day Adventist (or something like that)?

Mind you, that would mean that pig-flesh (& skin) would be off-limits 24/7 wouldn't it?

Dear CJ Morgan, Foxy and Vanilla the three of you appear to come accross quite well and even you Julie. The bible punchers always seem to come accross extremely confused. It is because they are blinkered and blinded by their faith their theory always argues that Gay, Transgenders and Transvestites have a mental problem and can be counselled to cure their perverted problem. Gay persons are born as they are and prefer to admire and be admired by the same sex rightfully so. Transgender persons have been born within the wrong body and their physical shape is not what they are within their shell. Transvestites enjoy dressing within the opposite sex attire if that is what they enjoy and like to be desired that way so be it.
Religious people need to be more tolerant the laughable eaxample is that the President of Iran stated that there are none of these people living in Iran. LOL

Dear CJ,

Thank You, but you must know the feeling's mutual!
(smile).

CJ Morgan
No I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist, though I have worked with several. I'm not Orthodox Jew though I have relatives who are including Rabbi