despite the banter us brits have always loved you guys and hopefully vice versa.

never more so since we heard what JH had to say about immigrants. if only someone here or in europe had the balls to stand up and do the same.

we all think it. we all know there are problems and huge frictions to be faced in the near future.

my question is simply this: when and why did europeans become so afraid of what they are thinking and how their thoughts may offend immigrants to our nations?

why is this side of the coin rarely discussed in public? it amazes me.......

The trump card of the lefties when it comes to discussions about individuals not of this continent is the race card. 'specially when they run out of logical points. I run 'middle of the road'. I have my love for animals and their well being, but hate idiots with a passion....of any breed or creed.

Many a career has been flushed down the preverbial because of voicing an opinion about various topics relating to immigrants. Before I get crucified (by rope, not nails, move on) I must say I'm an immigrant. My only criteria for immigration would be an understanding about muliticultural societies, an EXCELLENT grasp of english, written and verbal, and of course the infrastructure to support them. 99% of immigrants HAVE TO 'hit the ground running', and want to, like I did.

I don't think the gulags in the desert and on Nauru are the way to go. Why are people afraid of voicing their concerns and ideas?. There is no 'middle-'o-the-road' room for discussion. EVERY SINGLE TIME it will get railroaded by agenda driven lunatics. Left and right. It will happen here.

Dear Lefou

spot on about the 'aside from the banter, we care for each other'..

exactly. We are kith and kin in many ways. Most important is VALUES.

Stg..I quite agree about the 'gulag' of Nauru.. there is much more to that decision than 'a way of dealing with illegal immigrants'..but I dare say they won't be sharing all those issues publically intil 2030ish

There are some interesting vids on Youtube at the moment.
Lefou..you might find this interesting..I sure did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXeTP9J3i28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXeTP9J3i28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXeTP9J3i28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yRPivkPTzY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68WPG-TLMJM

amazing stuff.

It all becomes too much to worry about.

However multiculturism is dead and it was not buried by Australians,
it was buried by the various migrant groups.

They realised their numbers had reached a point where they could throw
their weight around and there was nothing "we" could do about it.

As someone who describes himself as “English by Birth, Australian by Choice” I feel can contribute to this thread.

My concern is the immigrants who attempt to settle in foreign lands must understand that the onus is on them to “fit in”. it is not on the community they seek to join to make way for them.

Lefou13,, as one who voted for JH & Co, I can empathise with your support for his view.

JH was an admirable national leader, who many will start to miss once the socialists start to dismember and wreck the economic system which JH & Co built, for the benefit of all.

I heard a comment of the radio the other evening in the debate about the questions on the citizenship test. Some federal labour politician commented that 90% of applicants eventually passed the test.

What the heck does that mean? – if they don’t pass the test why are they being accepted for citizenship?

If the test means anything. 100% of applicants should be passing. The ones who fail the test don’t get to become citizens.

I do not think Australia needs its to extend citizenship rights to those who, clearly, do not understand the history and values of the community they are seeking to join.

Oh and no dispensation for the ethnic origins of those who fail. I had to jump over hurdles to qualify to migrate here. I don’t see why everyone else should not be so tested as well.

Simply put, if you cannot or do not bother to assimilate into the country one migrates to, you will likely to live a very sad and unfulfilling life. Better to bugger off back where you came from

"For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased;
and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Luke 14:11

I find it so depressing reading your posts... Am I the only one?
I don't see in any of them - compassion - which should be a
springboard of the human conscience integral to our future survival.
An essential factor for a country (and world) where people can live
with dignity, without fear, in an environment of peace and justice,
safe in the understanding that the human endeavour has still got
soul.

So, so, so sad...

Seriously,I think that it just too late.A population that indulges itself such as ours,produces no offspring,lacks discipline,courage,and is too busy worrying about offending all other cultures/minority groups,has no vision or future.

Australia will just become a mottled group of feel goods,who live in fear of offending everybody,and lack the wisdom and courage to do what their instincts are telling them.

BD takes young Foxy aside for some serious 'therapy'........

FOXY !! to whom was your post addressed ? all of us.. me ?.. er.. *confused look*

Mate..! It appears you are equating 'compassion' with cultural hari kiri.

There is NOTHING 'un'compassionate about expecting newcomers to fit in to the existing social structure. When you have a new baby.. you expect him/her to fit into your family social rules....right?

But more than that..you actually take affirmative active steps to guide the child into that social normality.

I may have misunderstood you, but you seem to be only recognizing ONE aspect to the cultural/migration equation. i.e.. "new people come here..and WE dance to THEIR tune"...

Now.. your beautiful quote from Luke.. is very appropriate..FOR MIGRANTS :).. yes it is.. because in another place Jesus said (perhaps more appropriately for this discussion) "Don't goto a wedding banquet and seek the most honourable seat, for the host might come along and say 'no, you go over here.. someone more honorable than you is here, he must take your seat'... and with shame and humiliation, you move to the lowest seat, Far better to take the lowest seat that the host may place you in a better position" (paraphrase)

See it ?

GUEST.. takes the lowest seat, that the host may come along and say "Oh... don't sit there.. come here where it is more honorable"

HOST...decides the position you (as the guest) should take.

In migration terms, this tranlates to nothing more serious than "wait ur turn/ do as we do/speak as we speak/respect our law"

Your quote applies exactly to people who come along and say "Well.. here we are.. now you can all dance to our tune.. follow our values, and abandon your own"

Ok..*Therapy* officially over, you are now 'healed'. :)

Am member of a segregated family not separated, segregated as the Central Land Council denies "Traditional Owners" their otherwise held basic human right to reside together as a family in their family home.

This despite CLC's belated acknowledgement to the NT Supreme Court
members of our family held "Traditional Owner" status at Kintore, NT.

The NT Supreme Court ordered a stay of the proceedings commenced to
resolve these issues because denial of legal assistance thus our
representation continues.

Clearly for some is far more important we identify on racial grounds than as Australian

Since the 19th century we have had Muslims in our country. We have Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Bai Hai's and other groups. We have never experienced any problems with these groups. In fact, they have not only enriched our society - but also see themselves, and are recognised, as Australian as any of Anglo origin.

Since WWII we have witnessed waves of peoples from other countries - unfortunately, many received a very rough time on arrival. Despite this, they courageously persisted with their intentions of becoming loyal Australian citizens. They are now very much part of the Australian landscape, indeed have contributed to Australian society in every field; often becoming Australian icons. Without these different peoples, Australia would not be the Australia of today. Earlier waves of immigrants to this country, many of whom were highly cultured and highly educated, would have undoubtedly seen shortcomings in their land of adoption. However, they never expressed this aggressively.

So what are the problems we have with the current wave of Muslims?

When one goes to another country, it is a courtesy to recognise the dominant culture of that country. Perhaps this is the problem with some (not all) of our Muslim immigrants. This does not mean ridding themselves of identity - cultural heritage (much of which is very beautiful) or religion, or any other aspects which are enriching to themselves and indeed offer much to the wider community.

However, a number of Muslim leaders have been divisive, creating a "them and us" mentality; too few of the Muslim community (whatever their private embarrassment has been) have been sufficiently openly and publicly critical of statements coming from these leaders. To "vocal" Aussies (accustomed to expressing views on all sort of subjects) and to some "discontented" Muslims this sends a certain type of message.

We are a multi-cultural society, but we have a dominant culture, as do all countries. The US is a multi-cultural society. There are problems ... But no matter what a citizen's origins, they are, with black, blue, brindle, and white, "hand over the heart", proudly and firstly American.

Dear Danielle,

Thank you for those sentiments so beautifully expressed.

You represent the Australia that I know and love. It's an attitude of mind. A capacity to understand the most fundamental values of Australian society - our commitment to justice, egalitarianism and a 'Fair go' for all.

Thanks everybody! This is all getting a little 'fluffy' though. Speak YOUR minds. The last post read like a government PR response.

The central question of this thread is: why are we afraid to speak out against minorities?

The gentleman who wrote about people worrying about their careers is probably as near the truth as anyone!! Historically in fascist countries where speaking out against minorities was a sure way to fast-track your career. Did people hold back? I don't think so!!

From personal experience, this is only true experience we can go on, Muslims are the most racist group I have encountered.

If you are not a Muslim, you cannot marry a Muslim and it is looked down upon to go out with non-Muslims. You have a choice: either convert or see ya. Muslim men have relations with non-Muslims but would never bring them home to meet their parents! I see this in the UK everywhere.

The simple truth is wherever humans go they try to dominate. Some groups have found more effective ways than others: religion/race card are highly effective.

Are we all blind??

Lefou13

This is not "fluffy" rhetoric. I can recall when protestants and catholics didn't intermarry; when Italians and Greeks preferred to marry within their own group. This is entirely natural in a new country. However, this has moved on without causing friction nor any disruption to society as a whole - and different groups do now intermarry. However, our newcomers, whether they were from Europe, or Vietnam, or elsewhere, never tried to dominate our society. They wanted to become loyal citizens and contribute to this country which they adopted as their own. Our dominant culture remained the dominant culture and other cultures contributed rich elements to it, for which every Australian should be grateful. These once "newcomers" are Australians in every sense of the word. Our modern Australia is that which they helped to create.

I have agreed that there is an element within Muslim society that is divisive - not all Muslims - but unfortunately certain ones who apparently are at odds with mainstream Australia, which by its very nature include every other Australian group within it. This is definitely a worry. I don't know what the solution is. Perhaps when immigrants intend to come to Australia, they should be better informed of our expectations. Perhaps this is a failure on the part of our Australian departments overseas. I don't know.

Certainly, from what we have witnessed, some migrants do not accord us even the basic courtesy of being in our country. This is deplorable. This would be the same for any person entering another country and culture.

Dear Danielle,

Again, well put. I agree with you - supplying new immigrants with as much information as is possible about Australia - its history and heritage, its land and its peoplle, and of the unique national culture which has evolved over time should be mandatory.

Education is the key.

Posted by Lefou13,

Thanks everybody! This is all getting a little 'fluffy' though. Speak YOUR minds. The last post read like a government PR response.

Are we all blind??
Lefou13
Ok I am not know for fluffy comments so I will speak my mind.
In truth you are both right and wrong. I have worked with Muslim leaders for several years.
Yes we have had our little tiffs.I find them interesting people in general. They are far more forgiving them some of us. They do not hold grudges as a first option.

Young wrong about Muslims not being able to marry non Muslims.
Its no different to Greeks or whatever. Did you know that Saddamms right arm man was a Muslim? Did you know that until the warChristains were free to practise.
Not so now as most have been murdered .

On another thread there is a perfect example however of what you are warning of.
Somebody is saying to me = Well as we know have enough people we can form our own party andvote you out.
Umm- We exchanged a few words.

You might be interested to know most of the posters supported him not me so yeh i get where you are coming from.
I will post the link so you can see what i mean. What I am annoyed about is this-
MOU between our leaders not to make imagration a pre political issue and not to vote on policys for imagration.
The public have a right to voice their feelings and are being gagged.

I apoligise for typo but its the soft wear( which is new)
In all I think our Governments have made a right royal hash out of things.
There are really very nice Muslims.
There are also those who would never ever do anything that was against allahs demands.
You must understand they do not seperate religion from laws
There is Australias real problem and its a big one .

I will bet every thing I own we have people from European background here in this forum.
Mum told me of the fears refos, post ww2 migrants would take over our country some had, not thankfully her.
Multi culture's is not a problem, some migrant groups seem very much to be of real concern.
Look at those 1945 to 1960,s migrants today, see you will find it hard to know them and the grand children.
Sorry I do not fear other cultures, I do have concerns about some from within some cultures but also hope from others within that same culture.
2 working days ago this Aussie boff head stood in a Que watched a post mistress test three you late teen age girls ,first time I ever saw the test.
The only question I heard was what are your rights as an Australian? would you know without prior information?
One cried broke down, I stepped out of line and said , you will get it next time no worries, welcome ,have a great life.
I was shouted at by the post mistress a migrant herself she never had to pass this test, yet she sees her task to be filling young girls with fear?
We humans are strange we judge on race or color not actions.

"There is NOTHING 'un'compassionate about expecting newcomers to fit in to the existing social structure. When you have a new baby.. you expect him/her to fit into your family social rules....right?"

Yes, BD, and you make that baby feel welcome and you do everything in your power to help it adapt to its new environment. And you expect visitors to your home and people in your broader community to do the same. And you provide that assistance and guidance for as long as is needed in the knowledge that that baby will develop into a fully fledged and CONTRIBUTING member of your family and society. In fact it is quite likely that it will be that baby who is providing for you in your old age.

"Thanks everybody! This is all getting a little 'fluffy' though. Speak YOUR minds. The last post read like a government PR response."

What is this Lefou13? Some sort of call to arms? Aren't the reasoned responses of Danielle and Foxy quite what you were after? Are only racist and hate rants welcome on your sordid little thread?

It's this sort of paranoia, spreading throughout and infecting our once tolerant and welcoming nation, that is the very reason that many newcomers do find it difficult to feel accepted and to make their way in their adopted country. No wonder they can be inclined to resort to the comfort of their own familiar customs and to look for the company of people from their homeland. I'm sure most of us in the same position would react in much the same way.

Welcome back Bronwyn!

It's been a while since we last heard from you.

So glad that you're still with us and thanks for your well argued
input.

This thread could certainly use more like you.

Dear Foxy,

Thank you for your very kind comments.

Lefou13

"... if only someone here or in europe had the balls to stand up and do the same ..."

There is a history to migration to Britain. Britain was a colonial power.

When I was in England some years ago, there were grumblings about certain groups coming into the country. However, these groups had every right. They regarded Britain as their "mother country" and even carried British passports. These groups were colonial subjects of Britain. Perhaps citizens of countries now part of the British Commonwealth feel a similar tie.

This is a product of Britain's previous "glory" - and I suspect the same is occurring in France and elsewhere, who previously ruled colonial subjects. However, I respect the fact that you know Britain’s current immigration and multicultural policies better than I do.

Australia’s multicultural policy spells out that migrants have civic obligations - predominantly loyalty to this country, respect for our system of democracy, our constitution and laws.

As Foxy has stated, newcomers should be educated. Indeed these areas should be taught in all Australian schools - I’m sure many Aussies do not even know our constitution. This would make for an enlightened and informed society for all.

Certainly any leader of a community should know and respect our multicultural policies and speak English. Diplomats from other countries necessarily have to speak English and know our culture when posted here. It is only a matter of degree between diplomats and leaders of different communities. It is ludicrous to expect the latter to be spokepersons for their groups when they are unable to enter into dialogue with, nor understand the mores and expectations of Australian society. This should be a mandatory requirement .

Belly,

One doesn’t have to be of European background to appreciate their (and others’) contribution to Australian society. When I was at boarding school, our janitor had been a foremost lawyer in his country of origin. This made an enormous impression upon me.

Doctors from overseas were not recognised here and had to complete another medical degree in Australia before they could practice (many were unable to because of cost, and ended up in very menial jobs) I recall one incident when a medical lecturer sarcastically asked one of his seemingly “disinterested” students if he was bored. The student responded, no - he had written the medical text.

Ironically, Australian doctors who want recognition in their specialty now have to go overseas to further their studies.

Migrants, especially those highly educated, never complained , worked very hard at jobs with both little reward either financially or to suit their skills, which had often taken years to obtain. They did so, to become Australian citizens.

Belly, I know you weren't having a "shot" at anyone, so please don't feel I am having a "shot" back.

Many people think that post WWII "newcomers" were of one level of education. They weren't - and this has never been fully recognised. However, whatever their background, these migrants were determined, often making huge sacrifices, to start lives anew as true Australian citizens.

Dear Danielle,

I feel as if I know you... Because it's my family you're describing in this last post of yours. It's uncanny. But then I suppose as you pointed out - WWII Displaced People -who came to Australia as my parents did - were not recognised professionally. And yes, they had to work in menial jobs to survive. My father met one of his professors (a top neuro-surgeon in Europe) sweeping floors in a large
Sydney hospital. Dad did not want to embarrass his teacher, so he didn't speak to him.

Memories ...Great Australian Stories one and all!

Dear Foxy,

I found what you related about the neurosurgeon (and your family) ineffably sad; however,
this was the calibre of many post-war people who entered Australia.

These "histories" should be included in Australian history and taught in schools. I don't know if it is ... However, such people contributed to the Australian character in enormous ways. I am sure if children were taught about these post-war migrants, they would have a greater appreciation and pride of what it is to be Australian.

Every Australian owes a debt to people like your family and others. Their experiences in order to become Australian citizens should be acknowledged.